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Link Posted: 1/23/2019 11:55:03 AM EST
[#1]
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Quoted:

What makes you think that will happen?

Success depends upon Thomas, Alito, Roberts, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch voting correctly.  I think Alito, Kav, Gorsuch, and Thomas can be relied on.

It's Roberts that could screw us.
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This seems like a slam dunk. I think the question is how sweeping our win will be.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:00:03 PM EST
[#2]
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Quoted:

Why are we assuming that they would?

Suppose they don't.  Who's going to make them?
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The fact that their gun convictions are over turned by the courts.

What we saw in the courts post McDonald was a mix of lower court decisions, some very pro gun, others anti. The anti side tends to push the limits and see if there is pushback from higher courts. At this point I don't think any lower court is going to uphold an outright handgun ban.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:00:17 PM EST
[#3]
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Quoted:

Kennedy is gone, and replaced by Kavanaugh.

If anyone wonders why I voted for Trump, this is it.
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Same here.  The reason, the real reason I voted for DJT, is that I knew he could not possibly appoint crappier justices to SCOTUS than FHRC.

Of the two he's picked, Gorsuch has been great and BK has been good / above average.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:06:18 PM EST
[#4]
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Quoted:

Same here.  The reason, the real reason I voted for DJT, is that I knew he could not possibly appoint crappier justices to SCOTUS than FHRC.

Of the two he's picked, Gorsuch has been great and BK has been good / above average.
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There is also the fact that everyone knew HRC was a corrupt criminal, and rewarding such a criminal with high office is an outright invitation to become a banana republic. She had to lose, hell, even if it meant electing Bernie, god forbid.

Trump was never a bad choice in context. He had solid executive experience, is a moderate (but not beltway) Republican, and loves his country. And isn't a crook. His ideology might not be ideal, but it ain't bad, and his willingness to fight is vastly more important at this point in time.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:06:46 PM EST
[#5]
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Quoted:
Same here.  The reason, the real reason I voted for DJT, is that I knew he could not possibly appoint crappier justices to SCOTUS than FHRC.

Of the two he's picked, Gorsuch has been great and BK has been good / above average.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Kennedy is gone, and replaced by Kavanaugh.

If anyone wonders why I voted for Trump, this is it.
Same here.  The reason, the real reason I voted for DJT, is that I knew he could not possibly appoint crappier justices to SCOTUS than FHRC.

Of the two he's picked, Gorsuch has been great and BK has been good / above average.
I'm not 100% on Kavanaugh yet. His love for stare decicis is a bit concerning because a lot of gun laws will require overturning years of legal precedent.

That said, he will probably be hard to get to because if the left had anything else on him they would have used it during the confirmation hearings. Any leverage they get will have to be something new.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:14:06 PM EST
[#6]
Remember the court was unanimous in Caetano.

I don't think the question is whether this case will win, only in how narrow or broad the scope of the ruling is.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:14:14 PM EST
[#7]
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Quoted:
I'm not 100% on Kavanaugh yet. His love for stare decicis is a bit concerning because a lot of gun laws will require overturning years of legal precedent.

That said, he will probably be hard to get to because if the left had anything else on him they would have used it during the confirmation hearings. Any leverage they get will have to be something new.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Kennedy is gone, and replaced by Kavanaugh.

If anyone wonders why I voted for Trump, this is it.
Same here.  The reason, the real reason I voted for DJT, is that I knew he could not possibly appoint crappier justices to SCOTUS than FHRC.

Of the two he's picked, Gorsuch has been great and BK has been good / above average.
I'm not 100% on Kavanaugh yet. His love for stare decicis is a bit concerning because a lot of gun laws will require overturning years of legal precedent.

That said, he will probably be hard to get to because if the left had anything else on him they would have used it during the confirmation hearings. Any leverage they get will have to be something new.
I agree it's early to judge Justice Kavanaugh. He's only issued one, or maybe two, SCOTUS opinions so far, but I'm optimistic.
He has Heller and MacDonald to fall back on as precedent for voting to overturn bad gun laws.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:16:25 PM EST
[#8]
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Quoted:

I'm not 100% on Kavanaugh yet. His love for stare decicis is a bit concerning because a lot of gun laws will require overturning years of legal precedent.

That said, he will probably be hard to get to because if the left had anything else on him they would have used it during the confirmation hearings. Any leverage they get will have to be something new.
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Precedent in the Supreme Court is Heller and McDonald. That precedent led him decide and AWB was unconstitutional.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:20:20 PM EST
[#9]
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Quoted:
Remember the court was unanimous in Caetano.
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You are right. I did not know that.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:40:34 PM EST
[#10]
Slate has an article up crying about this. I feel very optimistic. If we decide to be a nation of laws with the same sort of respect and attention paid to the Second Amendment as we do to the others, and if SCOTUS remains open to hearing 2A cases, I look forward to the future!
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 12:55:02 PM EST
[#11]
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Quoted:
Remember the court was unanimous in Caetano.

I don't think the question is whether this case will win, only in how narrow or broad the scope of the ruling is.
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Agreed.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 3:38:37 PM EST
[#12]
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Quoted:
I am an attorney. I don't pay for PACER -- haven't used it in years. I'm certainly not going to dig through briefs to prove your point.

Oh, and from your Wiki link: "The NRA did eventually support the litigation by filing an amicus brief with the Court arguing that the plaintiffs in Parker had standing to sue and that the D.C. ban was unconstitutional under the Second Amendment."
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I am an attorney. I don't pay for PACER -- haven't used it in years. I'm certainly not going to dig through briefs to prove your point.

Oh, and from your Wiki link: "The NRA did eventually support the litigation by filing an amicus brief with the Court arguing that the plaintiffs in Parker had standing to sue and that the D.C. ban was unconstitutional under the Second Amendment."
@NotUrLawyer Well, you were the one who demanded a brief.

Nevertheless, here, I found where the NRA fucked up:
https://reason.com/archives/2008/11/18/how-the-second-amendment-was-r/print

The Heller case quickly found a powerful opponent in the National Rifle Association. This surprises nearly every layman I discuss the case with, most of whom assume the NRA was behind the lawsuit in the first place. The Parker lawyers received backroom visits from allies of the NRA before their case was filed, discouraging them from going forward. The Supreme Court (which still had Sandra Day O’Conner back then) would not reliably deliver a victory, they argued, and an authoritative statement from the Supremes that the Second Amendment did not protect an individual right could prove devastating to the long-term cause.

This was an intellectually respectable objection, the Levy team thought, but ultimately too fearful. If no one would fight for the Second Amendment qua Second Amendment in a relevant case, then its supposed paladins were as complicit in its irrelevance as were the most rabid partisans for the idea that the Second Amendment only applied to militias and is thus a dead letter.

“The second problem the NRA had with our case was territorial,” Gura says. “They didn’t want something like this going on that they didn’t have their hands in.” In fact, in April 2003, less than two months from Parker’s filing in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, a new lawsuit challenging D.C.’s gun laws, Seegars v. Ashcroft, was filed with the backing of the NRA and its longtime Second Amendment legal eagle Stephen Halbrook in charge.

As per then-standard NRA practice, Halbrook offered the court a menu of options to choose from to overthrow D.C. gun laws, hoping one of them might work even if a direct Second Amendment challenge did not. Among them were claims that Congress had only empowered D.C. to create for itself regulations that were “usual and reasonable,” and that D.C.’s gun laws, being the most severe ones in the nation, were therefore unusual and unreasonable.

Unlike the Levy team, Halbrook and the NRA chose to sue not only Washington, D.C., but the U.S. Department of Justice. The DOJ is a significantly more formidable opponent than the District of Columbia. To add insult to injury, because of their unease with Levy and his comparatively inexperienced crew, the NRA team used Seegars as an excuse to try to scuttle Parker altogether by taking over the case, through the legal gambit of “consolidation.” That’s when two cases that are asking courts to decide on essentially the same matter can be combined, whether or not one of the parties really wants it—a hostile takeover of the litigation, as it were. The consolidation request, made to the court in April 2003, was denied.

Then in January 2004, at the D.C. District Court, all but one Seegars plaintiff—a woman with a registered shotgun contesting the trigger-lock aspect of D.C.’s laws—were denied standing. The last remaining plaintiff lost the case on a basic “doesn’t belong to a militia” argument. The Seegars team appealed, bringing their case into the appeals process before Parker had even been considered at the District Court. It wasn’t until March 31, 2004 that that court dismissed Parker, basically on the grounds that those plaintiffs weren’t in a militia, either. The Levy team expected this initial loss, but appealed, determined to fight the case all the way through the appeals process.

Because the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals decided that the issues in both cases were essentially the same, they halted the appeals progress of Parker, at D.C.’s request, pending resolution of Seegars. Then in a February 2005 decision, Seegars was wrecked on the rock of standing, for D.C. Circuit-specific peculiarities explained further below.

The NRA also harmed Parker through its decision to bring DOJ into the case. The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, in coming down with its Parker decision on March 9, 2007, booted five of the original plaintiffs off the case, for the same reason of standing that the five Seegars plaintiffs were all tossed away. The standing argument had been introduced to the case by the Justice Department; D.C. hadn’t thought of it on its own.
So, there ya go.  Contrary to your "The NRA and Gura were best buddies!" narrative, the NRA:
1) tried to talk Gura/Levy/IJ out of filing at all;
2) filed its own "throw shit at the wall and hope some of it sticks" type of case;
3) tried to do a hostile takeover of the Parker case;
4) fortunately failed, but nevertheless got their own reeking turd of a case in front of the appellate court before Parker, thus delaying it; and
5) gave the opening to the DOJ to raise the lack-of-standing argument, which then was applied by the appellate judges, apparently sua sponte, to knock out Shelly Parker and four of the other five plaintiffs in Parker when the panel got around to hearing that appeal.

Therefore: it was the NRA's actions that triggered the booting of five of the six plaintiffs in Parker, through a combination of both the NRA's malice and the NRA's incompetence.

Q. E. fucking D. counselor.  Are you HAPPY now?

This is not even mentioning the NRA's attempts to halt the Parker/Heller case by getting Congress (via Orrin Hatch) to pass a law to change D.C.'s ban so that the case would be rendered moot, killing it before SCOTUS could hear it:

After some hesitation—causing it to miss the initial filing deadline—the District of Columbia appealed to the Supreme Court. The NRA was simultaneously pushing a new federal law that would have mooted the newly renamed Heller case by overturning the city’s anti-gun laws. Levy lobbied against the measure, arguing that a Supreme Court victory would be more permanent and more important to the whole country than just overturning D.C.’s restrictions. That bill did not pass in 2007, and the Heller case was taken up by the Supreme Court in November of that year. Only at that point, after years of obstruction, did the NRA became highly cooperative, putting together a significant amicus brief endorsed by the majority of both houses of Congress and by Vice President Dick Cheney.
So yeah, only after it became inevitable did the NRA decide to stop being a bunch of dicks.

What's your next steaming pile of bullshit argument?
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 3:43:33 PM EST
[#13]
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Quoted:
NRA held he line with lobbying from the '70s through early 2000s. Their approach wasn't through the courts, since for a long time their was no success to be had there. It isn't surprising they were slow to catch on in the legal arena.
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The NRA screwed us in half a dozen ways because they had to stick their noses in no matter what.  Just look at what they did with the Brady Act -- "oh, let's make it a computerized instant check! And let's ignore all the people calling us on the phone and screaming at us that that would create a computer database that would effectively be registration!"

I know I called and screamed at them.  I personally handed a note to Wayne LaPierre about it, and I know for fucking sure that someone on his staff read it, because they later sent me a letter addressing one of the other things in the letter (but not that, of course).  And I know at least two of my gun-nut friends also called and/or wrote to scream at them.

The NRA was and is all about The Swamp.  Suck up to the incumbent because he's more likely to win.  Ignore the fact that the incumbent is a RINO who sells us out whenever possible.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 3:53:35 PM EST
[#14]
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Quoted:
Of the two he's picked, Gorsuch has been great and BK has been good / above average.
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How did you make that evaluation?  Kavanaugh has only signed seven SC opinions so far and only written one.  Only one of the decisions was contentious (5-4);  all of the others were unanimous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_term_opinions_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

I don't recall even one gun case from Gorsuch. There have been no gun rights cases at SCOTUS since he was appointed, and he didn't issue any gun-rights opinions before he got on SCOTUS.

I suppose you could be referring to everything else he's done -- but in that case, what about Kavanaugh writing the pro-gun-rights dissent on a pro-gun case we lost while he was on the DC Circuit?

https://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/judge-kavanaughs-record-on-second-amendment-gun-rights/

Seems like Kavanaugh has a better gun-rights record than Gorsuch based on the above.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 4:05:39 PM EST
[#15]
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Quoted:
@NotUrLawyer Well, you were the one who demanded a brief.

Nevertheless, here, I found where the NRA fucked up:
https://reason.com/archives/2008/11/18/how-the-second-amendment-was-r/print

So, there ya go.  Contrary to your "The NRA and Gura were best buddies!" narrative, the NRA:
1) tried to talk Gura/Levy/IJ out of filing at all;
2) filed its own "throw shit at the wall and hope some of it sticks" type of case;
3) tried to do a hostile takeover of the Parker case;
4) fortunately failed, but nevertheless got their own reeking turd of a case in front of the appellate court before Parker, thus delaying it; and
5) gave the opening to the DOJ to raise the lack-of-standing argument, which then was applied by the full-panel appellate judges, apparently sua sponte, to knock out Shelly Parker and four of the other five plaintiffs in Parker when the panel got around to hearing that appeal.

Therefore: it was the NRA's actions that triggered the booting of five of the six plaintiffs in Parker, through a combination of both the NRA's malice and the NRA's incompetence.

Q. E. fucking D. counselor.  Are you HAPPY now?

This is not even mentioning the NRA's attempts to halt the Parker/Heller case by getting Congress (via Orrin Hatch) to pass a law to change D.C.'s ban so that the case would be rendered moot, killing it before SCOTUS could hear it.

What's your next steaming pile of bullshit argument?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I am an attorney. I don't pay for PACER -- haven't used it in years. I'm certainly not going to dig through briefs to prove your point.

Oh, and from your Wiki link: "The NRA did eventually support the litigation by filing an amicus brief with the Court arguing that the plaintiffs in Parker had standing to sue and that the D.C. ban was unconstitutional under the Second Amendment."
@NotUrLawyer Well, you were the one who demanded a brief.

Nevertheless, here, I found where the NRA fucked up:
https://reason.com/archives/2008/11/18/how-the-second-amendment-was-r/print

The Heller case quickly found a powerful opponent in the National Rifle Association. This surprises nearly every layman I discuss the case with, most of whom assume the NRA was behind the lawsuit in the first place. The Parker lawyers received backroom visits from allies of the NRA before their case was filed, discouraging them from going forward. The Supreme Court (which still had Sandra Day O’Conner back then) would not reliably deliver a victory, they argued, and an authoritative statement from the Supremes that the Second Amendment did not protect an individual right could prove devastating to the long-term cause.

This was an intellectually respectable objection, the Levy team thought, but ultimately too fearful. If no one would fight for the Second Amendment qua Second Amendment in a relevant case, then its supposed paladins were as complicit in its irrelevance as were the most rabid partisans for the idea that the Second Amendment only applied to militias and is thus a dead letter.

“The second problem the NRA had with our case was territorial,” Gura says. “They didn’t want something like this going on that they didn’t have their hands in.” In fact, in April 2003, less than two months from Parker’s filing in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, a new lawsuit challenging D.C.’s gun laws, Seegars v. Ashcroft, was filed with the backing of the NRA and its longtime Second Amendment legal eagle Stephen Halbrook in charge.

As per then-standard NRA practice, Halbrook offered the court a menu of options to choose from to overthrow D.C. gun laws, hoping one of them might work even if a direct Second Amendment challenge did not. Among them were claims that Congress had only empowered D.C. to create for itself regulations that were “usual and reasonable,” and that D.C.’s gun laws, being the most severe ones in the nation, were therefore unusual and unreasonable.

Unlike the Levy team, Halbrook and the NRA chose to sue not only Washington, D.C., but the U.S. Department of Justice. The DOJ is a significantly more formidable opponent than the District of Columbia. To add insult to injury, because of their unease with Levy and his comparatively inexperienced crew, the NRA team used Seegars as an excuse to try to scuttle Parker altogether by taking over the case, through the legal gambit of “consolidation.” That’s when two cases that are asking courts to decide on essentially the same matter can be combined, whether or not one of the parties really wants it—a hostile takeover of the litigation, as it were. The consolidation request, made to the court in April 2003, was denied.

Then in January 2004, at the D.C. District Court, all but one Seegars plaintiff—a woman with a registered shotgun contesting the trigger-lock aspect of D.C.’s laws—were denied standing. The last remaining plaintiff lost the case on a basic “doesn’t belong to a militia” argument. The Seegars team appealed, bringing their case into the appeals process before Parker had even been considered at the District Court. It wasn’t until March 31, 2004 that that court dismissed Parker, basically on the grounds that those plaintiffs weren’t in a militia, either. The Levy team expected this initial loss, but appealed, determined to fight the case all the way through the appeals process.

Because the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals decided that the issues in both cases were essentially the same, they halted the appeals progress of Parker, at D.C.’s request, pending resolution of Seegars. Then in a February 2005 decision, Seegars was wrecked on the rock of standing, for D.C. Circuit-specific peculiarities explained further below.

The NRA also harmed Parker through its decision to bring DOJ into the case. The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, in coming down with its Parker decision on March 9, 2007, booted five of the original plaintiffs off the case, for the same reason of standing that the five Seegars plaintiffs were all tossed away. The standing argument had been introduced to the case by the Justice Department; D.C. hadn’t thought of it on its own.
So, there ya go.  Contrary to your "The NRA and Gura were best buddies!" narrative, the NRA:
1) tried to talk Gura/Levy/IJ out of filing at all;
2) filed its own "throw shit at the wall and hope some of it sticks" type of case;
3) tried to do a hostile takeover of the Parker case;
4) fortunately failed, but nevertheless got their own reeking turd of a case in front of the appellate court before Parker, thus delaying it; and
5) gave the opening to the DOJ to raise the lack-of-standing argument, which then was applied by the full-panel appellate judges, apparently sua sponte, to knock out Shelly Parker and four of the other five plaintiffs in Parker when the panel got around to hearing that appeal.

Therefore: it was the NRA's actions that triggered the booting of five of the six plaintiffs in Parker, through a combination of both the NRA's malice and the NRA's incompetence.

Q. E. fucking D. counselor.  Are you HAPPY now?

This is not even mentioning the NRA's attempts to halt the Parker/Heller case by getting Congress (via Orrin Hatch) to pass a law to change D.C.'s ban so that the case would be rendered moot, killing it before SCOTUS could hear it.

What's your next steaming pile of bullshit argument?
Parker was filed in 2003, dismissed by the district court in 2004, and decided in Heller's favor by the court of appeals in 2007.

And who left the Supreme Court in 2006 while Parker/Heller was pending in the Court of Appeals? Sandra Day O'Connor, an even more liberal swing vote than Kennedy, and the reason many did not want Parker to proceed. Rehnquist also passed in 2005, but he was reliable.

Heller was able to remain a plaintiff because he'd actually applied for a permit and been denied, no one else had tried. A normal requirement to demonstrate standing is showing actual harm instead of theoretical.

Kharn
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 4:05:44 PM EST
[#16]
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Legal-Times-Both-sides-worried-about-DC-case/6-602927/

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1185527215310

On the pro-gun-rights side those worries, along with long-simmering rivalries, have relegated the National Rifle Association to the sidelines in a case that could fulfill its most fervent dream: a declaration by the Court that the convoluted wording of the Second Amendment ensures an individual's right to bear arms, rather than a collective right of state militias. If the right-leaning Roberts Court embraces that view, regulating firearm possession and use would become harder, though not impossible.

Alan Gura, the Alexandria, Va., lawyer who masterminded the challenge to the D.C. handgun ban, says the NRA has joined him "ever so grudgingly" only in recent weeks, after years of trying to wreck the litigation and avoid a Second Amendment showdown. At earlier stages, the NRA sought to consolidate its own case, which challenged the D.C. law on a "kitchen sink" array of rationales, with Gura's. In a 2003 filing, Gura called the NRA case "sham litigation" aimed at muddying his Second Amendment claim.

Even after the D.C. Circuit ruled in March, says Gura, the NRA lobbied for legislation to repeal the D.C. handgun ban as a way to keep the case out of the Supreme Court. "The NRA was adamant about not wanting the Supreme Court to hear the case, but we went ahead anyway," says Gura, a name partner in the firm of Gura & Possessky. "It's not their case, and they are somewhat territorial."

Gura insists that if the high court grants review, he will argue the case himself and won't defer to NRA lawyers, such as Stephen Halbrook, who have Supreme Court experience. "My decisions in the case have been the correct decisions. That's why I am arguing and he's not."

Cooper's reluctance is based on legal strategy, but others say the NRA has less lofty reasons for not wanting the Supreme Court to decide what the Second Amendment really means. "The NRA would lose its loudest fund-raising drum if this question is answered," says Carl Bogus, a leading scholar who favors the militia rights view of the amendment.
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Link Posted: 1/23/2019 4:08:01 PM EST
[#17]
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Heller was able to remain a plaintiff because he'd actually applied for a permit and been denied, no one else had tried. A normal requirement to demonstrate standing is showing actual harm instead of theoretical.

Kharn
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So you're saying that the NRA was a complete bunch of morons for not bothering to make sure that at least one of their plaintiffs would be found to have standing?
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 4:12:25 PM EST
[#18]
I'm actually a little surprised that they didn't just do a per curiam, like they did with Caetano, so that they could let all the big questions continue to float. This particular case is so narrow that it's almost not a 2A case. What I am afraid comes out of it is more dicta that can be twisted as is done with several passages from Heller.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 4:15:33 PM EST
[#19]
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Lifer, brah.
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Just rejoined NYSRPA. To be perfectly honest, I became discouraged and let my membership lapse several years ago.

This is absolutely huge and we should all support them. First 2A case to make it to SCOTUS in over 10 years.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/61196/875423_2246_jpg-818037.JPG

https://www.nysrpa.org/
Lifer, brah.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 4:18:32 PM EST
[#20]
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Agreed.
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Remember the court was unanimous in Caetano.

I don't think the question is whether this case will win, only in how narrow or broad the scope of the ruling is.
Agreed.
I foresee an extremely narrow decision, and a more expansive concurrence by Thomas and Gorsuch, probably Alito as well.

Pretty sure that Caetano only went the way it did because it was a non-lethal weapon instead of a firearm.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 4:27:24 PM EST
[#21]
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Quoted:
I'm actually a little surprised that they didn't just do a per curiam, like they did with Caetano, so that they could let all the big questions continue to float. This particular case is so narrow that it's almost not a 2A case. What I am afraid comes out of it is more dicta that can be twisted as is done with several passages from Heller.
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That's a smart thing to be afraid of. My fear is the law gets struck down but intermediate scrutiny gets applied to the Second Amendment. Intermediate scrutiny isn't any different than rationale basis in practical application.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 4:39:14 PM EST
[#22]
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That's a smart thing to be afraid of. My fear is the law gets struck down but intermediate scrutiny gets applied to the Second Amendment. Intermediate scrutiny isn't any different than rationale basis in practical application.
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Quoted:
I'm actually a little surprised that they didn't just do a per curiam, like they did with Caetano, so that they could let all the big questions continue to float. This particular case is so narrow that it's almost not a 2A case. What I am afraid comes out of it is more dicta that can be twisted as is done with several passages from Heller.
That's a smart thing to be afraid of. My fear is the law gets struck down but intermediate scrutiny gets applied to the Second Amendment. Intermediate scrutiny isn't any different than rationale basis in practical application.
That may be the whole game plan of the lefties, to take the case and sign on to something that's really pretty meaningless for them to give away, but that allows them to work in some phrases to game out future court challenges of gun control schemes.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 6:13:31 PM EST
[#23]
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So you're saying that the NRA was a complete bunch of morons for not bothering to make sure that at least one of their plaintiffs would be found to have standing?
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Heller was able to remain a plaintiff because he'd actually applied for a permit and been denied, no one else had tried. A normal requirement to demonstrate standing is showing actual harm instead of theoretical.

Kharn
So you're saying that the NRA was a complete bunch of morons for not bothering to make sure that at least one of their plaintiffs would be found to have standing?
Nope, Seegars interpreted the prior case law in the government's favor and used it to dismiss the plaintiffs as not having suffered injury, when normally you can show the administrative act is plainly futile and retain standing. Once Seegar lost standing, it became circuit precedent for all pending and future cases in DC and Parker had already filed with their plaintiffs, so they had to abide by it. By chance,  Heller had applied.

Kharn
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 7:38:30 PM EST
[#24]
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Quoted:
@NotUrLawyer Well, you were the one who demanded a brief.

Nevertheless, here, I found where the NRA fucked up:
https://reason.com/archives/2008/11/18/how-the-second-amendment-was-r/print

So, there ya go.  Contrary to your "The NRA and Gura were best buddies!" narrative, the NRA:
1) tried to talk Gura/Levy/IJ out of filing at all;
2) filed its own "throw shit at the wall and hope some of it sticks" type of case;
3) tried to do a hostile takeover of the Parker case;
4) fortunately failed, but nevertheless got their own reeking turd of a case in front of the appellate court before Parker, thus delaying it; and
5) gave the opening to the DOJ to raise the lack-of-standing argument, which then was applied by the appellate judges, apparently sua sponte, to knock out Shelly Parker and four of the other five plaintiffs in Parker when the panel got around to hearing that appeal.

Therefore: it was the NRA's actions that triggered the booting of five of the six plaintiffs in Parker, through a combination of both the NRA's malice and the NRA's incompetence.

Q. E. fucking D. counselor.  Are you HAPPY now?

This is not even mentioning the NRA's attempts to halt the Parker/Heller case by getting Congress (via Orrin Hatch) to pass a law to change D.C.'s ban so that the case would be rendered moot, killing it before SCOTUS could hear it:

So yeah, only after it became inevitable did the NRA decide to stop being a bunch of dicks.

What's your next steaming pile of bullshit argument?
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I am an attorney. I don't pay for PACER -- haven't used it in years. I'm certainly not going to dig through briefs to prove your point.

Oh, and from your Wiki link: "The NRA did eventually support the litigation by filing an amicus brief with the Court arguing that the plaintiffs in Parker had standing to sue and that the D.C. ban was unconstitutional under the Second Amendment."
@NotUrLawyer Well, you were the one who demanded a brief.

Nevertheless, here, I found where the NRA fucked up:
https://reason.com/archives/2008/11/18/how-the-second-amendment-was-r/print

The Heller case quickly found a powerful opponent in the National Rifle Association. This surprises nearly every layman I discuss the case with, most of whom assume the NRA was behind the lawsuit in the first place. The Parker lawyers received backroom visits from allies of the NRA before their case was filed, discouraging them from going forward. The Supreme Court (which still had Sandra Day O’Conner back then) would not reliably deliver a victory, they argued, and an authoritative statement from the Supremes that the Second Amendment did not protect an individual right could prove devastating to the long-term cause.

This was an intellectually respectable objection, the Levy team thought, but ultimately too fearful. If no one would fight for the Second Amendment qua Second Amendment in a relevant case, then its supposed paladins were as complicit in its irrelevance as were the most rabid partisans for the idea that the Second Amendment only applied to militias and is thus a dead letter.

“The second problem the NRA had with our case was territorial,” Gura says. “They didn’t want something like this going on that they didn’t have their hands in.” In fact, in April 2003, less than two months from Parker’s filing in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, a new lawsuit challenging D.C.’s gun laws, Seegars v. Ashcroft, was filed with the backing of the NRA and its longtime Second Amendment legal eagle Stephen Halbrook in charge.

As per then-standard NRA practice, Halbrook offered the court a menu of options to choose from to overthrow D.C. gun laws, hoping one of them might work even if a direct Second Amendment challenge did not. Among them were claims that Congress had only empowered D.C. to create for itself regulations that were “usual and reasonable,” and that D.C.’s gun laws, being the most severe ones in the nation, were therefore unusual and unreasonable.

Unlike the Levy team, Halbrook and the NRA chose to sue not only Washington, D.C., but the U.S. Department of Justice. The DOJ is a significantly more formidable opponent than the District of Columbia. To add insult to injury, because of their unease with Levy and his comparatively inexperienced crew, the NRA team used Seegars as an excuse to try to scuttle Parker altogether by taking over the case, through the legal gambit of “consolidation.” That’s when two cases that are asking courts to decide on essentially the same matter can be combined, whether or not one of the parties really wants it—a hostile takeover of the litigation, as it were. The consolidation request, made to the court in April 2003, was denied.

Then in January 2004, at the D.C. District Court, all but one Seegars plaintiff—a woman with a registered shotgun contesting the trigger-lock aspect of D.C.’s laws—were denied standing. The last remaining plaintiff lost the case on a basic “doesn’t belong to a militia” argument. The Seegars team appealed, bringing their case into the appeals process before Parker had even been considered at the District Court. It wasn’t until March 31, 2004 that that court dismissed Parker, basically on the grounds that those plaintiffs weren’t in a militia, either. The Levy team expected this initial loss, but appealed, determined to fight the case all the way through the appeals process.

Because the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals decided that the issues in both cases were essentially the same, they halted the appeals progress of Parker, at D.C.’s request, pending resolution of Seegars. Then in a February 2005 decision, Seegars was wrecked on the rock of standing, for D.C. Circuit-specific peculiarities explained further below.

The NRA also harmed Parker through its decision to bring DOJ into the case. The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, in coming down with its Parker decision on March 9, 2007, booted five of the original plaintiffs off the case, for the same reason of standing that the five Seegars plaintiffs were all tossed away. The standing argument had been introduced to the case by the Justice Department; D.C. hadn’t thought of it on its own.
So, there ya go.  Contrary to your "The NRA and Gura were best buddies!" narrative, the NRA:
1) tried to talk Gura/Levy/IJ out of filing at all;
2) filed its own "throw shit at the wall and hope some of it sticks" type of case;
3) tried to do a hostile takeover of the Parker case;
4) fortunately failed, but nevertheless got their own reeking turd of a case in front of the appellate court before Parker, thus delaying it; and
5) gave the opening to the DOJ to raise the lack-of-standing argument, which then was applied by the appellate judges, apparently sua sponte, to knock out Shelly Parker and four of the other five plaintiffs in Parker when the panel got around to hearing that appeal.

Therefore: it was the NRA's actions that triggered the booting of five of the six plaintiffs in Parker, through a combination of both the NRA's malice and the NRA's incompetence.

Q. E. fucking D. counselor.  Are you HAPPY now?

This is not even mentioning the NRA's attempts to halt the Parker/Heller case by getting Congress (via Orrin Hatch) to pass a law to change D.C.'s ban so that the case would be rendered moot, killing it before SCOTUS could hear it:

After some hesitation—causing it to miss the initial filing deadline—the District of Columbia appealed to the Supreme Court. The NRA was simultaneously pushing a new federal law that would have mooted the newly renamed Heller case by overturning the city’s anti-gun laws. Levy lobbied against the measure, arguing that a Supreme Court victory would be more permanent and more important to the whole country than just overturning D.C.’s restrictions. That bill did not pass in 2007, and the Heller case was taken up by the Supreme Court in November of that year. Only at that point, after years of obstruction, did the NRA became highly cooperative, putting together a significant amicus brief endorsed by the majority of both houses of Congress and by Vice President Dick Cheney.
So yeah, only after it became inevitable did the NRA decide to stop being a bunch of dicks.

What's your next steaming pile of bullshit argument?


- I'm not arguing with you; I'm asking for evidence of your assertions.
- A link to reason.com isn't a legal brief.
- I never said the NRA and Gura were buddies.
- Standing is a specific legal issue that bit the NRA's case in the ass as Kharn pointed out above.
- You admit the DOJ raised standing or the DC Cir. judges raised it sue sponte. (Judges love tossing cases on standing. It's one of the first things they look for, and they don't need the parties to ask them to do it.)
- Everything else you've posted is old news, and I don't care how much the NRA and Gura do or don't like each other, or how bad the NRA's strategy was. Clearly, we now know with hindsight that Mr. Gura had the better case/strategy.
- Just admit the NRA didn't raise standing in Heller and put down your shovel, or post their brief and we can all bash the mean old NRA.

As an aside, I've met Mr. Gura. He's very pragmatic about what is and isn't likely to succeed with respect to the 2nd at SCOTUS.
Link Posted: 1/23/2019 7:50:47 PM EST
[#25]
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Quoted:
Parker was filed in 2003, dismissed by the district court in 2004, and decided in Heller's favor by the court of appeals in 2007.

And who left the Supreme Court in 2006 while Parker/Heller was pending in the Court of Appeals? Sandra Day O'Connor, an even more liberal swing vote than Kennedy, and the reason many did not want Parker to proceed. Rehnquist also passed in 2005, but he was reliable.

Heller was able to remain a plaintiff because he'd actually applied for a permit and been denied, no one else had tried. A normal requirement to demonstrate standing is showing actual harm instead of theoretical.

Kharn
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I am an attorney. I don't pay for PACER -- haven't used it in years. I'm certainly not going to dig through briefs to prove your point.

Oh, and from your Wiki link: "The NRA did eventually support the litigation by filing an amicus brief with the Court arguing that the plaintiffs in Parker had standing to sue and that the D.C. ban was unconstitutional under the Second Amendment."
@NotUrLawyer Well, you were the one who demanded a brief.

Nevertheless, here, I found where the NRA fucked up:
https://reason.com/archives/2008/11/18/how-the-second-amendment-was-r/print

The Heller case quickly found a powerful opponent in the National Rifle Association. This surprises nearly every layman I discuss the case with, most of whom assume the NRA was behind the lawsuit in the first place. The Parker lawyers received backroom visits from allies of the NRA before their case was filed, discouraging them from going forward. The Supreme Court (which still had Sandra Day O’Conner back then) would not reliably deliver a victory, they argued, and an authoritative statement from the Supremes that the Second Amendment did not protect an individual right could prove devastating to the long-term cause.

This was an intellectually respectable objection, the Levy team thought, but ultimately too fearful. If no one would fight for the Second Amendment qua Second Amendment in a relevant case, then its supposed paladins were as complicit in its irrelevance as were the most rabid partisans for the idea that the Second Amendment only applied to militias and is thus a dead letter.

“The second problem the NRA had with our case was territorial,” Gura says. “They didn’t want something like this going on that they didn’t have their hands in.” In fact, in April 2003, less than two months from Parker’s filing in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, a new lawsuit challenging D.C.’s gun laws, Seegars v. Ashcroft, was filed with the backing of the NRA and its longtime Second Amendment legal eagle Stephen Halbrook in charge.

As per then-standard NRA practice, Halbrook offered the court a menu of options to choose from to overthrow D.C. gun laws, hoping one of them might work even if a direct Second Amendment challenge did not. Among them were claims that Congress had only empowered D.C. to create for itself regulations that were “usual and reasonable,” and that D.C.’s gun laws, being the most severe ones in the nation, were therefore unusual and unreasonable.

Unlike the Levy team, Halbrook and the NRA chose to sue not only Washington, D.C., but the U.S. Department of Justice. The DOJ is a significantly more formidable opponent than the District of Columbia. To add insult to injury, because of their unease with Levy and his comparatively inexperienced crew, the NRA team used Seegars as an excuse to try to scuttle Parker altogether by taking over the case, through the legal gambit of “consolidation.” That’s when two cases that are asking courts to decide on essentially the same matter can be combined, whether or not one of the parties really wants it—a hostile takeover of the litigation, as it were. The consolidation request, made to the court in April 2003, was denied.

Then in January 2004, at the D.C. District Court, all but one Seegars plaintiff—a woman with a registered shotgun contesting the trigger-lock aspect of D.C.’s laws—were denied standing. The last remaining plaintiff lost the case on a basic “doesn’t belong to a militia” argument. The Seegars team appealed, bringing their case into the appeals process before Parker had even been considered at the District Court. It wasn’t until March 31, 2004 that that court dismissed Parker, basically on the grounds that those plaintiffs weren’t in a militia, either. The Levy team expected this initial loss, but appealed, determined to fight the case all the way through the appeals process.

Because the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals decided that the issues in both cases were essentially the same, they halted the appeals progress of Parker, at D.C.’s request, pending resolution of Seegars. Then in a February 2005 decision, Seegars was wrecked on the rock of standing, for D.C. Circuit-specific peculiarities explained further below.

The NRA also harmed Parker through its decision to bring DOJ into the case. The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals, in coming down with its Parker decision on March 9, 2007, booted five of the original plaintiffs off the case, for the same reason of standing that the five Seegars plaintiffs were all tossed away. The standing argument had been introduced to the case by the Justice Department; D.C. hadn’t thought of it on its own.
So, there ya go.  Contrary to your "The NRA and Gura were best buddies!" narrative, the NRA:
1) tried to talk Gura/Levy/IJ out of filing at all;
2) filed its own "throw shit at the wall and hope some of it sticks" type of case;
3) tried to do a hostile takeover of the Parker case;
4) fortunately failed, but nevertheless got their own reeking turd of a case in front of the appellate court before Parker, thus delaying it; and
5) gave the opening to the DOJ to raise the lack-of-standing argument, which then was applied by the full-panel appellate judges, apparently sua sponte, to knock out Shelly Parker and four of the other five plaintiffs in Parker when the panel got around to hearing that appeal.

Therefore: it was the NRA's actions that triggered the booting of five of the six plaintiffs in Parker, through a combination of both the NRA's malice and the NRA's incompetence.

Q. E. fucking D. counselor.  Are you HAPPY now?

This is not even mentioning the NRA's attempts to halt the Parker/Heller case by getting Congress (via Orrin Hatch) to pass a law to change D.C.'s ban so that the case would be rendered moot, killing it before SCOTUS could hear it.

What's your next steaming pile of bullshit argument?
Parker was filed in 2003, dismissed by the district court in 2004, and decided in Heller's favor by the court of appeals in 2007.

And who left the Supreme Court in 2006 while Parker/Heller was pending in the Court of Appeals? Sandra Day O'Connor, an even more liberal swing vote than Kennedy, and the reason many did not want Parker to proceed. Rehnquist also passed in 2005, but he was reliable.

Heller was able to remain a plaintiff because he'd actually applied for a permit and been denied, no one else had tried. A normal requirement to demonstrate standing is showing actual harm instead of theoretical.

Kharn
Yep.
Had O'Connor stayed on the Court Heller could have gone the other way. Gura would have lost and the NRA would have said "I told you so." Fortunately, that didn't happen.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 6:03:19 AM EST
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yep.
Had O'Connor stayed on the Court Heller could have gone the other way. Gura would have lost and the NRA would have said "I told you so." Fortunately, that didn't happen.
View Quote
And what would have happened if the NRA had succeeded?  Eventually some D.C. case about a felon in possession of a firearm would have come up and the Supreme Court would have said "you know what, we really love guns but it's rational for government not to want felons to possess them.  On that basis, we hold that the Second Amendment is too vague to be a part of the Constitution and rational basis scrutiny applies to whatever the government wants to do."

No different from the Fourth Amendment and all of the death-by-a-thousand-cuts that all the drug dealer cases have inflicted upon it.  Because it's not an unconstitutional search if we're doing it for the children.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 6:19:47 AM EST
[#27]
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Quoted:
IBT "Roberts will fuck us" underscores/concern trolls.

Kharn
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I very much doubt Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh would have voted to hear the case if they were even a little bit concerned Roberts would cuck.  Well, Thomas would, because he just doesn't care anymore about the bullshit.  The other three wouldn't.  And no way the liberal four would have voted to hear this case and risk losing.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 6:29:50 AM EST
[#28]
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Quoted:
Just saw that, can’t wait to see NYC get their dicks slapped by the Supreme Court.
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Link Posted: 1/24/2019 8:32:09 AM EST
[#29]
What I'd like to see happen...

The fact they are even hearing such a simple, narrow case is telling. My guess is they want to hear NYCs ridiculous logic as to why they are so restrictive.

I want it to come out in oral arguments that NY and NYC harshly and strictly license a fundamental constitutional right (simply owning a handgun in the home is almost impossible).

"You mean to tell me your great city ignores Heller and McDonald and licenses a fundamental right by issuing premise / ownership permits? And these PREMISE permits are the reason one isn't even allowed to transport their legal handgun anywhere? Well this ownership scheme is the root of the problem. NYS/NYC, I am remanding to the lower court to not only allow transport of handguns, but to also reexamine the unconstitutional nature of NY Penal Law section 400 in regards to simple ownership permits."

It wouldn't be a totally sweeping judgment, because only NY requires a permit simply to possess a handgun (no other state does this)...but it would toss out a 110 year old gun licensing law, or at least be the first step to gut it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 8:42:08 AM EST
[#30]
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Quoted:
What I'd like to see happen...

The fact they are even hearing such a simple, narrow case is telling. My guess is they want to hear NYCs ridiculous logic as to why they are so restrictive.

I want it to come out in oral arguments that NY and NYC harshly and strictly license a fundamental constitutional right (simply owning a handgun in the home is almost impossible).

"You mean to tell me your great city ignores Heller and McDonald and licenses a fundamental right by issuing premise / ownership permits? And these PREMISE permits are the reason one isn't even allowed to transport their legal handgun anywhere? Well this ownership scheme is the root of the problem. NYS/NYC, I am remanding to the lower court to not only allow transport of handguns, but to also reexamine the unconstitutional nature of NY Penal Law section 400 in regards to simple ownership permits."

It wouldn't be a totally sweeping judgment, because only NY requires a permit simply to possess a handgun (no other state does this)...but it would toss out a 110 year old gun licensing law, or at least be the first step to gut it.
View Quote
Don't MA and IL both also require permits for possession of a firearm in the home? I know NJ has a firearm id card similar to those two states but in NJ it's just required to purchase a firearm not to have one in your home.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 8:51:29 AM EST
[#31]
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Quoted:
And what would have happened if the NRA had succeeded?  Eventually some D.C. case about a felon in possession of a firearm would have come up and the Supreme Court would have said "you know what, we really love guns but it's rational for government not to want felons to possess them.  On that basis, we hold that the Second Amendment is too vague to be a part of the Constitution and rational basis scrutiny applies to whatever the government wants to do."

No different from the Fourth Amendment and all of the death-by-a-thousand-cuts that all the drug dealer cases have inflicted upon it.  Because it's not an unconstitutional search if we're doing it for the children.
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Quoted:
Yep.
Had O'Connor stayed on the Court Heller could have gone the other way. Gura would have lost and the NRA would have said "I told you so." Fortunately, that didn't happen.
And what would have happened if the NRA had succeeded?  Eventually some D.C. case about a felon in possession of a firearm would have come up and the Supreme Court would have said "you know what, we really love guns but it's rational for government not to want felons to possess them.  On that basis, we hold that the Second Amendment is too vague to be a part of the Constitution and rational basis scrutiny applies to whatever the government wants to do."

No different from the Fourth Amendment and all of the death-by-a-thousand-cuts that all the drug dealer cases have inflicted upon it.  Because it's not an unconstitutional search if we're doing it for the children.
I'm still waiting for the NRA's brief raising standing in Heller.
And I'm curious, is your husband a lawyer?
You know just enough of the words to have been around lawyers but you clearly aren't one.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 9:02:10 AM EST
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I'm still waiting for the NRA's brief raising standing in Heller.
And I'm curious, is your husband a lawyer?
You know just enough of the words to have been around lawyers but you clearly aren't one.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yep.
Had O'Connor stayed on the Court Heller could have gone the other way. Gura would have lost and the NRA would have said "I told you so." Fortunately, that didn't happen.
And what would have happened if the NRA had succeeded?  Eventually some D.C. case about a felon in possession of a firearm would have come up and the Supreme Court would have said "you know what, we really love guns but it's rational for government not to want felons to possess them.  On that basis, we hold that the Second Amendment is too vague to be a part of the Constitution and rational basis scrutiny applies to whatever the government wants to do."

No different from the Fourth Amendment and all of the death-by-a-thousand-cuts that all the drug dealer cases have inflicted upon it.  Because it's not an unconstitutional search if we're doing it for the children.
I'm still waiting for the NRA's brief raising standing in Heller.
And I'm curious, is your husband a lawyer?
You know just enough of the words to have been around lawyers but you clearly aren't one.
Jesus guys take it someplace else...we are trying to discuss the actual case here...enough of the purse swinging.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 9:05:49 AM EST
[#33]
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Quoted:
Don't MA and IL both also require permits for possession of a firearm in the home? I know NJ has a firearm id card similar to those two states but in NJ it's just required to purchase a firearm not to have one in your home.
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Quoted:
What I'd like to see happen...

The fact they are even hearing such a simple, narrow case is telling. My guess is they want to hear NYCs ridiculous logic as to why they are so restrictive.

I want it to come out in oral arguments that NY and NYC harshly and strictly license a fundamental constitutional right (simply owning a handgun in the home is almost impossible).

"You mean to tell me your great city ignores Heller and McDonald and licenses a fundamental right by issuing premise / ownership permits? And these PREMISE permits are the reason one isn't even allowed to transport their legal handgun anywhere? Well this ownership scheme is the root of the problem. NYS/NYC, I am remanding to the lower court to not only allow transport of handguns, but to also reexamine the unconstitutional nature of NY Penal Law section 400 in regards to simple ownership permits."

It wouldn't be a totally sweeping judgment, because only NY requires a permit simply to possess a handgun (no other state does this)...but it would toss out a 110 year old gun licensing law, or at least be the first step to gut it.
Don't MA and IL both also require permits for possession of a firearm in the home? I know NJ has a firearm id card similar to those two states but in NJ it's just required to purchase a firearm not to have one in your home.
Hmm they might...but it's nowhere near the difficulty and cost and time for a NY / NYC pistol permit.

You are correct about NJ. You can move into NJ with handguns and not have to worry really. But you can't buy any without the NJ permit.

Either way scotus is still more likely to issue a broader ruling if it only impacts a couple states.

I don't see how scotus can ignore the premise permit issue after oral arguments expose the root of the issue...licensing the simple possession of a gun and not allowing simple transport of it to otherwise legal places due to the fact it's a premise only permit.

NY pistol laws will have to be re-written to get rid of the premise only permit. And when NY makes up a new restricted type of target shooting only license, we file a carry case suit. Shall issue.

BUT TO WIN OVER ROBERTS, WE HAVE TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT ONLY A COUPLE STATES ACTUALLY LICENSE HANDGUN POSSESSION.

I guarantee Roberts and most of them already think everyone in the country has to get a license and register their guns...and Roberts will refuse to make waves like he did in Heller. Scalia couldn't put in strict scrutiny with Roberts as the swing. But if Roberts realizes NY is the only dumbass state to really license ownership, he may cave.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 9:27:26 AM EST
[#34]
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Quoted:
Jesus guys take it someplace else...we are trying to discuss the actual case here...enough of the purse swinging.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Yep.
Had O'Connor stayed on the Court Heller could have gone the other way. Gura would have lost and the NRA would have said "I told you so." Fortunately, that didn't happen.
And what would have happened if the NRA had succeeded?  Eventually some D.C. case about a felon in possession of a firearm would have come up and the Supreme Court would have said "you know what, we really love guns but it's rational for government not to want felons to possess them.  On that basis, we hold that the Second Amendment is too vague to be a part of the Constitution and rational basis scrutiny applies to whatever the government wants to do."

No different from the Fourth Amendment and all of the death-by-a-thousand-cuts that all the drug dealer cases have inflicted upon it.  Because it's not an unconstitutional search if we're doing it for the children.
I'm still waiting for the NRA's brief raising standing in Heller.
And I'm curious, is your husband a lawyer?
You know just enough of the words to have been around lawyers but you clearly aren't one.
Jesus guys take it someplace else...we are trying to discuss the actual case here...enough of the purse swinging.
My apologies.
The legal derp in these threads is just too insane to ignore sometimes.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 9:32:54 AM EST
[#35]
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Quoted:
Hmm they might...but it's nowhere near the difficulty and cost and time for a NY / NYC pistol permit.

You are correct about NJ. You can move into NJ with handguns and not have to worry really. But you can't buy any without the NJ permit.

Either way scotus is still more likely to issue a broader ruling if it only impacts a couple states.

I don't see how scotus can ignore the premise permit issue after oral arguments expose the root of the issue...licensing the simple possession of a gun and not allowing simple transport of it to otherwise legal places due to the fact it's a premise only permit.

NY pistol laws will have to be re-written to get rid of the premise only permit. And when NY makes up a new restricted type of target shooting only license, we file a carry case suit. Shall issue.

BUT TO WIN OVER ROBERTS, WE HAVE TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT ONLY A COUPLE STATES ACTUALLY LICENSE HANDGUN POSSESSION.

I guarantee Roberts and most of them already think everyone in the country has to get a license and register their guns...and Roberts will refuse to make waves like he did in Heller. Scalia couldn't put in strict scrutiny with Roberts as the swing. But if Roberts realizes NY is the only dumbass state to really license ownership, he may cave.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What I'd like to see happen...

The fact they are even hearing such a simple, narrow case is telling. My guess is they want to hear NYCs ridiculous logic as to why they are so restrictive.

I want it to come out in oral arguments that NY and NYC harshly and strictly license a fundamental constitutional right (simply owning a handgun in the home is almost impossible).

"You mean to tell me your great city ignores Heller and McDonald and licenses a fundamental right by issuing premise / ownership permits? And these PREMISE permits are the reason one isn't even allowed to transport their legal handgun anywhere? Well this ownership scheme is the root of the problem. NYS/NYC, I am remanding to the lower court to not only allow transport of handguns, but to also reexamine the unconstitutional nature of NY Penal Law section 400 in regards to simple ownership permits."

It wouldn't be a totally sweeping judgment, because only NY requires a permit simply to possess a handgun (no other state does this)...but it would toss out a 110 year old gun licensing law, or at least be the first step to gut it.
Don't MA and IL both also require permits for possession of a firearm in the home? I know NJ has a firearm id card similar to those two states but in NJ it's just required to purchase a firearm not to have one in your home.
Hmm they might...but it's nowhere near the difficulty and cost and time for a NY / NYC pistol permit.

You are correct about NJ. You can move into NJ with handguns and not have to worry really. But you can't buy any without the NJ permit.

Either way scotus is still more likely to issue a broader ruling if it only impacts a couple states.

I don't see how scotus can ignore the premise permit issue after oral arguments expose the root of the issue...licensing the simple possession of a gun and not allowing simple transport of it to otherwise legal places due to the fact it's a premise only permit.

NY pistol laws will have to be re-written to get rid of the premise only permit. And when NY makes up a new restricted type of target shooting only license, we file a carry case suit. Shall issue.

BUT TO WIN OVER ROBERTS, WE HAVE TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT ONLY A COUPLE STATES ACTUALLY LICENSE HANDGUN POSSESSION.

I guarantee Roberts and most of them already think everyone in the country has to get a license and register their guns...and Roberts will refuse to make waves like he did in Heller. Scalia couldn't put in strict scrutiny with Roberts as the swing. But if Roberts realizes NY is the only dumbass state to really license ownership, he may cave.
This will all be covered in the briefs, if it isn't already all spelled out in the cert petition.
Hopefully oral arguments will just be convincing the justices in the majority to issue a broader opinion that subjects these permit laws to strict scrutiny.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 10:04:45 AM EST
[#36]
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Quoted:

This will all be covered in the briefs, if it isn't already all spelled out in the cert petition.
Hopefully oral arguments will just be convincing the justices in the majority to issue a broader opinion that subjects these permit laws to strict scrutiny.
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Yes. This exactly. That is why the fact that we are even getting an oral argument is a positive sign.

I know exactly the asshat bureaucrat in the NYPD license division who is fucking pissed and scared right now...fuck him.
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 10:10:29 AM EST
[#37]
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Quoted:
Yes. This exactly. That is why the fact that we are even getting an oral argument is a positive sign.

I know exactly the asshat bureaucrat in the NYPD license division who is fucking pissed and scared right now...fuck him.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

This will all be covered in the briefs, if it isn't already all spelled out in the cert petition.
Hopefully oral arguments will just be convincing the justices in the majority to issue a broader opinion that subjects these permit laws to strict scrutiny.
Yes. This exactly. That is why the fact that we are even getting an oral argument is a positive sign.

I know exactly the asshat bureaucrat in the NYPD license division who is fucking pissed and scared right now...fuck him.
That guy is probably more worried about getting pinched in a kickback investigation.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Want-a-full-carry-lic-in-NYC-got-to-get-a-the-Del-Blasio-red-Bill-special/5-2187826/
Link Posted: 1/24/2019 10:29:10 AM EST
[#38]
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Quoted:
That guy is probably more worried about getting pinched in a kickback investigation.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Want-a-full-carry-lic-in-NYC-got-to-get-a-the-Del-Blasio-red-Bill-special/5-2187826/
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

This will all be covered in the briefs, if it isn't already all spelled out in the cert petition.
Hopefully oral arguments will just be convincing the justices in the majority to issue a broader opinion that subjects these permit laws to strict scrutiny.
Yes. This exactly. That is why the fact that we are even getting an oral argument is a positive sign.

I know exactly the asshat bureaucrat in the NYPD license division who is fucking pissed and scared right now...fuck him.
That guy is probably more worried about getting pinched in a kickback investigation.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Want-a-full-carry-lic-in-NYC-got-to-get-a-the-Del-Blasio-red-Bill-special/5-2187826/
Good. Fuck him.
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 8:22:09 AM EST
[#39]
People who think this is not an important case for the rest of the country need to understand the order of events of building precedent...

Heller and McDonald affirmed that:
Owning a gun is a fundamental individual right
Mandating it be locked up and unloaded / unusable at all times in the home is unconstitutional, because what is the point of an unloaded locked up gun?

THIS case will affirm that it is unconstitutional to not allow the legal (unloaded) transport of said gun, outside the home.

The next case will affirm that it is unconstitutional to not allow the legal LOADED transport of said gun...because that is the core purpose of the 2nd amendment and what is the point of an unloaded locked up gun?

This is the start of a constitutional carry case people...
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 9:20:09 AM EST
[#40]
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Quoted:

@NotUrLawyer Well, you were the one who demanded a brief.

Nevertheless, here, I found where the NRA fucked up:
https://reason.com/archives/2008/11/18/how-the-second-amendment-was-r/print

So, there ya go.  Contrary to your "The NRA and Gura were best buddies!" narrative, the NRA:
1) tried to talk Gura/Levy/IJ out of filing at all;
2) filed its own "throw shit at the wall and hope some of it sticks" type of case;
3) tried to do a hostile takeover of the Parker case;
4) fortunately failed, but nevertheless got their own reeking turd of a case in front of the appellate court before Parker, thus delaying it; and
5) gave the opening to the DOJ to raise the lack-of-standing argument, which then was applied by the appellate judges, apparently sua sponte, to knock out Shelly Parker and four of the other five plaintiffs in Parker when the panel got around to hearing that appeal.

Therefore: it was the NRA's actions that triggered the booting of five of the six plaintiffs in Parker, through a combination of both the NRA's malice and the NRA's incompetence.

Q. E. fucking D. counselor.  Are you HAPPY now?

This is not even mentioning the NRA's attempts to halt the Parker/Heller case by getting Congress (via Orrin Hatch) to pass a law to change D.C.'s ban so that the case would be rendered moot, killing it before SCOTUS could hear it:

So yeah, only after it became inevitable did the NRA decide to stop being a bunch of dicks.

What's your next steaming pile of bullshit argument?
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Go cry a river somewhere else.  You don't take legal action unless you know you have a strong chance of winning.  That is the position the NRA took before things were filed.  Once it was filed the NRA supported the measures.
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 9:52:19 AM EST
[#41]
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Quoted:

I foresee an extremely narrow decision, and a more expansive concurrence by Thomas and Gorsuch, probably Alito as well.

Pretty sure that Caetano only went the way it did because it was a non-lethal weapon instead of a firearm.
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@Gamma762

Help me understand the legal basis for your reasoning. You think RBG, for instance, would hold in a dissenting (majority is way doubtful) opinion that the 2nd only applies to non-lethal devices? As far as I know, there is zero precedent for that and mountains of opinions to the contrary.
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 10:02:07 AM EST
[#42]
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Quoted:
@Gamma762

Help me understand the legal basis for your reasoning. You think RBG, for instance, would hold in a dissenting (majority is way doubtful) opinion that the 2nd only applies to non-lethal devices? As far as I know, there is zero precedent for that and mountains of opinions to the contrary.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

I foresee an extremely narrow decision, and a more expansive concurrence by Thomas and Gorsuch, probably Alito as well.

Pretty sure that Caetano only went the way it did because it was a non-lethal weapon instead of a firearm.
@Gamma762

Help me understand the legal basis for your reasoning. You think RBG, for instance, would hold in a dissenting (majority is way doubtful) opinion that the 2nd only applies to non-lethal devices? As far as I know, there is zero precedent for that and mountains of opinions to the contrary.
I suspect Gamma is probably right, unless Roberts assigns the majority opinion to Thomas and lets him run with it.

RBG probably thinks its rational for states to ban lethal weapons but that it goes to far to prohibit non-lethals. She doesn't care what the 2nd meant to the founders.
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 10:16:51 AM EST
[#43]
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Quoted:

I suspect Gamma is probably right, unless Roberts assigns the majority opinion to Thomas and lets him run with it.

RBG probably thinks its rational for states to ban lethal weapons but that it goes to far to prohibit non-lethals. She doesn't care what the 2nd meant to the founders.
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Dunno, man. No question that RBG believes that the 2nd is a Collective Right and outdated, but the non-lethal piece would be completely out of left field. She can't ground a dissent on her Militia view after Heller. What would a non-lethal dissent look like?

"We hold that the protections afforded by the 2nd Amendment only apply to those implements that don't result in death, ie. the musket...oh wait..."
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 10:26:41 AM EST
[#44]
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Quoted:
Dunno, man. No question that RBG believes that the 2nd is a Collective Right and outdated, but the non-lethal piece would be completely out of left field. She can't ground a dissent on her Militia view after Heller. What would a non-lethal dissent look like?

"We hold that the protections afforded by the 2nd Amendment only apply to those implements that don't result in death, ie. the musket...oh wait..."
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Quoted:
Quoted:

I suspect Gamma is probably right, unless Roberts assigns the majority opinion to Thomas and lets him run with it.

RBG probably thinks its rational for states to ban lethal weapons but that it goes to far to prohibit non-lethals. She doesn't care what the 2nd meant to the founders.
Dunno, man. No question that RBG believes that the 2nd is a Collective Right and outdated, but the non-lethal piece would be completely out of left field. She can't ground a dissent on her Militia view after Heller. What would a non-lethal dissent look like?

"We hold that the protections afforded by the 2nd Amendment only apply to those implements that don't result in death, ie. the musket...oh wait..."
I haven't read Caetano recently, but if RBG says it's rational for states to limit lethal guns but they must allow non-lethal alternatives then she can pretend to follow Heller's right to self defense while gutting the RKBA. It's a living constitution, dude. You can set your phasors on stun but not kill.
(I'm obviously going out on a limb here trying to read the mind of a crazy old lib.)
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 10:55:24 AM EST
[#45]
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Quoted:

I haven't read Caetano recently, but if RBG says it's rational for states to limit lethal guns but they must allow non-lethal alternatives then she can pretend to follow Heller's right to self defense while gutting the RKBA. It's a living constitution, dude. You can set your phasors on stun but not kill.
(I'm obviously going out on a limb here trying to read the mind of a crazy old lib.)
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My gut says She will not be voting on this one.
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 10:59:52 AM EST
[#46]
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Quoted:
My gut says She will not be voting on this one.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

I haven't read Caetano recently, but if RBG says it's rational for states to limit lethal guns but they must allow non-lethal alternatives then she can pretend to follow Heller's right to self defense while gutting the RKBA. It's a living constitution, dude. You can set your phasors on stun but not kill.
(I'm obviously going out on a limb here trying to read the mind of a crazy old lib.)
My gut says She will not be voting on this one.
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 5:06:47 PM EST
[#47]
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Quoted:
Go cry a river somewhere else.  You don't take legal action unless you know you have a strong chance of winning.  That is the position the NRA took before things were filed.  Once it was filed the NRA supported the measures.
View Quote
Look, I realize you have your tongue firmly inserted into the NRA's rectum, but the NRA didn't support Parker/Heller until they had failed at every one of their attempts to sabotage it.  Pull your tongue out and go read something about all the maneuvering NRA did to try to sabotage it.

And if you really believe that "You don't take legal action unless you know you have a strong chance of winning," then why did the NRA file Seegars?  Did they think they had a "strong chance of winning" with their dogshit legal strategy?  Or did they merely file it in an attempt to destroy Parker/Heller and then abandon their case?
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 5:28:32 PM EST
[#48]
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 5:38:24 PM EST
[#49]
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Quoted:
@Gamma762

Help me understand the legal basis for your reasoning. You think RBG, for instance, would hold in a dissenting (majority is way doubtful) opinion that the 2nd only applies to non-lethal devices? As far as I know, there is zero precedent for that and mountains of opinions to the contrary.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

I foresee an extremely narrow decision, and a more expansive concurrence by Thomas and Gorsuch, probably Alito as well.

Pretty sure that Caetano only went the way it did because it was a non-lethal weapon instead of a firearm.
@Gamma762

Help me understand the legal basis for your reasoning. You think RBG, for instance, would hold in a dissenting (majority is way doubtful) opinion that the 2nd only applies to non-lethal devices? As far as I know, there is zero precedent for that and mountains of opinions to the contrary.
No. I suspect that the only reason they got a unanimous "grudging" per curium decision in Caetano was because it was a non-lethal device for self defense. The left wing of the court voted for the defendant - a woman with a non-lethal device for self-defense - not necessarily for any overriding legal principle. Although at some future point in time I'm sure it will be argued that non-lethal means are available for self-defense and that justifies greater restrictions on more lethal arms.

They wanted the outcome of that case but while minimizing the precedent value of the decision which is why it was done the way it was done - a per curium decision without a published opinion.

Quoted:
RBG probably thinks its rational for states to ban lethal weapons but that it goes to far to prohibit non-lethals. She doesn't care what the 2nd meant to the founders.
I would suspect that RBG thinks that since there is now an established right to self-defense, that the Caetano decision was a way to lay groundwork for a long-term undermining of that right. Whether it works out that way remains to be seen.

Quoted:
I haven't read Caetano recently,
It was a per curium decision, there is little in the decision written out to explain it.

There was a concurrence by Thomas and Alito with a more expansive explanation. I suspect this NYC case will end up similarly.
Link Posted: 1/25/2019 5:45:15 PM EST
[#50]
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Quoted:

How did you make that evaluation?  Kavanaugh has only signed seven SC opinions so far and only written one.  Only one of the decisions was contentious (5-4);  all of the others were unanimous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_term_opinions_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

I don't recall even one gun case from Gorsuch. There have been no gun rights cases at SCOTUS since he was appointed, and he didn't issue any gun-rights opinions before he got on SCOTUS.

I suppose you could be referring to everything else he's done -- but in that case, what about Kavanaugh writing the pro-gun-rights dissent on a pro-gun case we lost while he was on the DC Circuit?

https://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/judge-kavanaughs-record-on-second-amendment-gun-rights/

Seems like Kavanaugh has a better gun-rights record than Gorsuch based on the above.
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Quoted:

How did you make that evaluation?  Kavanaugh has only signed seven SC opinions so far and only written one.  Only one of the decisions was contentious (5-4);  all of the others were unanimous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_term_opinions_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

I don't recall even one gun case from Gorsuch. There have been no gun rights cases at SCOTUS since he was appointed, and he didn't issue any gun-rights opinions before he got on SCOTUS.

I suppose you could be referring to everything else he's done -- but in that case, what about Kavanaugh writing the pro-gun-rights dissent on a pro-gun case we lost while he was on the DC Circuit?

https://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/judge-kavanaughs-record-on-second-amendment-gun-rights/

Seems like Kavanaugh has a better gun-rights record than Gorsuch based on the above.
Your analysis is incomplete.

When the SCOTUS denied certiorari for Peruta, Thomas wrote a scathing dissent of the court's failure to act as lower courts systematically neuter Heller.   Gorsuch joined that dissent and you can read it here starting on or about page 30.

Here are some excerpts from that opinion.

...
The en banc court's decision to limit its review towhether the Second Amendment protects the right to
concealed carryas opposed to the more general right to
public carrywas untenable. Most fundamentally, it was
not justified by the terms of the complaint, which called
into question the State's regulatory scheme as a whole.

...

This Court has already suggested that the Second Amendment protects
the right to carry firearms in public in some fashion. As
we explained in Heller, to "bear arms" means to "'wear,
bear, or carry upon the person or in the clothing or in a
pocket, for the purpose of being armed and ready for
offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another
person.'" 554 U. S., at 584 (quoting Muscarello v. United
States, 524 U. S. 125, 143 (1998) (GINSBURG, J., dissenting); alterations
and some internal quotation marks omitted).
The most natural reading of this definition encompasses public carry.
I find it extremely improbable that
the Framers understood the Second Amendment to protect
little more than carrying a gun from the bedroom to the
kitchen.

...

Finally, the Second Amendment's core purpose further
supports the conclusion that the right to bear arms extends to public carry. The Court in Heller emphasized
that "self-defense" is "the central component of the [Second
Amendment] right itself." 554 U. S., at 599. This purpose
is not limited only to the home, even though the need for
self-defense may be "most acute" there. Id., at 628. "Selfdefense has to take place wherever the person happens to
be," and in some circumstances a person may be more
vulnerable in a public place than in his own house. Volokh, Implementing the Right To Keep and Bear Arms for
Self-Defense: An Analytical Framework and a Research
Agenda, 56 UCLA L. Rev. 1443, 1515 (2009).
...

stake.
The Court's decision to deny certiorari in this case reflects a distressing trend: the treatment of the Second
Amendment as a disfavored right. See Friedman v. Highland Park, 577 U. S. ___, ___ (2015) (THOMAS, J., dissenting from denial of certiorari) (slip op., at 6) ("The Court's
refusal to review a decision that flouts two of our Second
Amendment precedents stands in marked contrast to the
Court's willingness to summarily reverse courts that
disregard our other constitutional decisions"); Jackson v.
City and County of San Francisco, 576 U. S. ___, ___
(2015) (same). The Constitution does not rank certain
rights above others, and I do not think this Court should
impose such a hierarchy by selectively enforcing its preferred rights. Id., at ___ (slip op., at 1) ("Second Amendment rights are no less protected by our Constitution than
other rights enumerated in that document"). The Court
has not heard argument in a Second Amendment case in
over seven yearssince March 2, 2010, in McDonald v.
Chicago, 561 U. S. 742.

...

For those of us who work in marbled halls, guarded
constantly by a vigilant and dedicated police force, the
guarantees of the Second Amendment might seem antiquated and superfluous. But the Framers made a clear
choice: They reserved to all Americans the right to bear
arms for self-defense. I do not think we should stand by
idly while a State denies its citizens that right, particularly
when their very lives may depend on it. I respectfully
dissent.
There is no logical reason, that I can see, for Gorsuch to sign on to that dissent unless he actually agreed with it.
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