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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:17:30 AM EDT
How much will San Francisco's Chinese bridge really cost?  Monday, June 27, 2011 - 6:09 PM http://prestowitz.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/06/27/cheap_is_expensive Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger strongly...backed the Chinese project on the basis of an estimated $400 million saving to the state. The $400 million estimated saving is largely a result of cheap Chinese labor. ETA: Am I in before the "capitalism, how does it work" or "Fuck China" crowd on this one?  |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:20:37 AM EDT
[#1]
Wait wait, someone, and I can't remember who for the life of me, talked about all these "shovel ready" infrastructure projects that "would save the us labor market".....
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:22:15 AM EDT
[#2]
Tough call on that one. First off fuck the overpaid union labor. Secondly I hope the chinese quality is better than their usual shit. Should we be supporting chinese communists or home grown commie/union types?
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:24:42 AM EDT
[#3]
I bet without union politicians artificially pumping up the costs of the bridge construction we could have built it here. The frightening thing here is that our construction is so inefficient that it is cheaper to ship an entire fucking bridge across the largest ocean in the world during record high fuel prices, rather than just build it. we be fucked.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:26:18 AM EDT
[#4]
I hate to say it but I would rather the commies here build it than the commies over there
FTRC (fuck the red chinese) |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:26:50 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:30:07 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
How much will San Francisco's Chinese bridge really cost? Posted By Clyde Prestowitz http://www.foreignpolicy.com/images/091022_meta_block.gif Monday, June 27, 2011 - 6:09 PM http://prestowitz.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/06/27/cheap_is_expensive Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger strongly...backed the Chinese project on the basis of an estimated $400 million saving tothe state. The $400 million estimatedsaving is largely a result of cheap Chinese labor. ETA: Am I in before the "capitalism, how does it work" or "Fuck China" crowd on this one?
Yup, you are. If they can offer equivalent products and services for lower costs...capitalism FTW. :) If we can't build a bridge on US soil for less - then there are other, deeper problems with how the US encourages manufacturing. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:30:48 AM EDT
[#7]
Meh.....California is barely part of the United States anyway.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:34:54 AM EDT
[#8]
I wouldn't want to drive on that bridge
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:35:55 AM EDT
[#9]
I, for one, welcome the Chinese overlords.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:38:21 AM EDT
[#10]
On Fox they said the savings was a result of not paying union mandated wages.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:40:58 AM EDT
[#11]
it's probably made of pot metal and will crack in half in five years or less.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:41:58 AM EDT
[#12]
I hope the unions are happy.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:42:17 AM EDT
[#13]
You get what you pay for. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:45:28 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
On Fox they said the savings was a result of not paying union mandated wages. I'm sure that's part of it. ...but I also wonder about other things that typically go into the construction of a bridge like testing concrete and steel used in constructing the bridge for different types of load to ensure that it will actually be able to hold up to the stresses that are going to be on the structure. This type of testing and the production of materials that is up to the spec is expensive. Somebody in China certifying that type of testing is being done fills me with precisely zero faith in the structure. They've been known to cut corners and if that leads to a bridge collapse good luck recovering any damages from them. Sometimes outsourcing is cheaper, but cheaper isn't always a good idea. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:50:12 AM EDT
[#15]
How do they save on labor installing it though? Import workers with the steel?
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:50:19 AM EDT
[#16]
I'm on the side of
FUCK CHINA |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:56:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
How much will San Francisco's Chinese bridge really cost? Posted By Clyde Prestowitz http://www.foreignpolicy.com/images/091022_meta_block.gif Monday, June 27, 2011 - 6:09 PM http://prestowitz.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/06/27/cheap_is_expensive Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger strongly...backed the Chinese project on the basis of an estimated $400 million saving tothe state. The $400 million estimatedsaving is largely a result of cheap Chinese labor. ETA: Am I in before the "capitalism, how does it work" or "Fuck China" crowd on this one?
Yup, you are. If they can offer equivalent products and services for lower costs...capitalism FTW. :) If we can't build a bridge on US soil for less - then there are other, deeper problems with how the US encourages manufacturing. I would agree with you if they were competing on a level playing field. They are not. US contractors have to deal with hundreds of regulations from the likes of OSHA, CAL OSHA, DOT, minimum wage, EPA, DOJ, Coast Guard, Wetlands, OBAMACARE, UNIONS , etc, etc, etc. The Chinese do not have to account for any of those costs in their bid. The issue here is not capitalism, but over regulation. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:59:06 AM EDT
[#18]
A cheap Chinese made, double deck bridge, in an earthquake prone heavily populated area? What could possibly go wrong?
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 9:59:17 AM EDT
[#19]
And we still can't get Norinco ammo and AK's.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:00:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
On Fox they said the savings was a result of not paying union mandated wages. I'm sure that's part of it. ...but I also wonder about other things that typically go into the construction of a bridge like testing concrete and steel used in constructing the bridge for different types of load to ensure that it will actually be able to hold up to the stresses that are going to be on the structure. This type of testing and the production of materials that is up to the spec is expensive. Somebody in China certifying that type of testing is being done fills me with precisely zero faith in the structure. They've been known to cut corners and if that leads to a bridge collapse good luck recovering any damages from them. Sometimes outsourcing is cheaper, but cheaper isn't always a good idea. You get what you pay for. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:12:29 AM EDT
[#21]
The guy did have a point with the high unemplyment, we will be still paying unemplyment to people out of work too. Not sure I like this one. How are the doing the quality control on this. The Chi Coms have been known to cut a corner or three.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:17:23 AM EDT
[#22]
Have the unions figured out that anything > 0 is a win for them yet?
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:19:48 AM EDT
[#23]
It's not like the Chinese have never built a bridge before...
Sorry. But Unions and over-regulating government are to blame. Not China. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:21:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
On Fox they said the savings was a result of not paying union mandated wages. That's showing those greedy American unions. Give the money to Chinese communists! 
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:23:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Well, when you are paying someone less than $1/hour for labor what do you expect. The guy in the article is earning $84/week for working 112 hours.
I find it interesting that while CEO's keep turning to China Inc for cheap labor they are not volunteering to take personal cuts in their own compensation package. It's about time that CEO's have their pay cut too. After all we can replace them with a Chinese CEO for about $100,000 a year and save the company several million dollars a year. I bet they are just as good too. How many anti-union Arfcommers are lining up for jobs witch pay under $1.00/hour? |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:25:08 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
I wouldn't want to drive on that bridge Me neither. This is a disaster in the making, on all accounts. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:26:27 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: I wouldn't want to drive on that bridge no shit. is there anything from china they hadn't fucked up? That we know of? Considering the options I'm kind of torn on this. It's hard to consider SF part of america. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:40:37 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How much will San Francisco's Chinese bridge really cost? Posted By Clyde Prestowitz http://www.foreignpolicy.com/images/091022_meta_block.gif Monday, June 27, 2011 - 6:09 PM http://prestowitz.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/06/27/cheap_is_expensive Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger strongly...backed the Chinese project on the basis of an estimated $400 million saving tothe state. The $400 million estimatedsaving is largely a result of cheap Chinese labor. ETA: Am I in before the "capitalism, how does it work" or "Fuck China" crowd on this one?
Yup, you are. If they can offer equivalent products and services for lower costs...capitalism FTW. :) If we can't build a bridge on US soil for less - then there are other, deeper problems with how the US encourages manufacturing. I would agree with you if they were competing on a level playing field. They are not. US contractors have to deal with hundreds of regulations from the likes of OSHA, CAL OSHA, DOT, minimum wage, EPA, DOJ, Coast Guard, Wetlands, OBAMACARE, UNIONS , etc, etc, etc. The Chinese do not have to account for any of those costs in their bid. The issue here is not capitalism, but over regulation. Yes...the reason for the statement of: Quoted:
If we can't build a bridge on US soil for less - then there are other, deeper problems with how the US encourages manufacturing. Maybe manufacturing and construction would have been more clear. I think we agree, though, on the root problem, over regulation. Over regulation leads to increased costs, as you mention, which leads to looking elsewhere for "more bank for the buck" (capitalism). |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 10:41:20 AM EDT
[#29]
Who cares? The bridge goes to Oakland.....
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:00:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wouldn't want to drive on that bridge no shit. is there anything from china they hadn't fucked up? That we know of? The millions of Ipads, Iphones, and other electronics built under horrible conditions? Anything can be built in China just as good as anywhere else if the company calling for the product requires it. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:04:30 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Wait wait, someone, and I can't remember who for the life of me, talked about all these "shovel ready" infrastructure projects that "would save the us labor market"..... Pretty sure the Bay Bridge upgrade has been going on since before '08........... Brian |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:07:31 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: On Fox they said the savings was a result of not paying union mandated wages. I'm sure that's part of it. ...but I also wonder about other things that typically go into the construction of a bridge like testing concrete and steel used in constructing the bridge for different types of load to ensure that it will actually be able to hold up to the stresses that are going to be on the structure. This type of testing and the production of materials that is up to the spec is expensive. Somebody in China certifying that type of testing is being done fills me with precisely zero faith in the structure. They've been known to cut corners and if that leads to a bridge collapse good luck recovering any damages from them. Sometimes outsourcing is cheaper, but cheaper isn't always a good idea. China... the land where buildings tip over. Glad I won't have to drive on that shit. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:11:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: On Fox they said the savings was a result of not paying union mandated wages. I'm sure that's part of it. ...but I also wonder about other things that typically go into the construction of a bridge like testing concrete and steel used in constructing the bridge for different types of load to ensure that it will actually be able to hold up to the stresses that are going to be on the structure. This type of testing and the production of materials that is up to the spec is expensive. Somebody in China certifying that type of testing is being done fills me with precisely zero faith in the structure. They've been known to cut corners and if that leads to a bridge collapse good luck recovering any damages from them. Sometimes outsourcing is cheaper, but cheaper isn't always a good idea. They are not scrimping on testing for this bridge. The concrete is being tested, the steel is being tested, hell, even the light poles are being tested. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:14:09 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
On Fox they said the savings was a result of not paying union mandated wages. I'm sure that's part of it. ...but I also wonder about other things that typically go into the construction of a bridge like testing concrete and steel used in constructing the bridge for different types of load to ensure that it will actually be able to hold up to the stresses that are going to be on the structure. This type of testing and the production of materials that is up to the spec is expensive. Somebody in China certifying that type of testing is being done fills me with precisely zero faith in the structure. They've been known to cut corners and if that leads to a bridge collapse good luck recovering any damages from them. Sometimes outsourcing is cheaper, but cheaper isn't always a good idea. Recovery will be simple, they will let CA keep Alcatraz, when they collect on our debt. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:14:17 AM EDT
[#35]
More places you haters won't be able to drive
In New York City alone, Chinese companies have won contracts to help renovate the subway system, refurbish the Alexander Hamilton Bridge over the Harlem River and build a new Metro-North train platform near Yankee Stadium. As with the Bay Bridge, American union labor would carry out most of the work done on United States soil.
Even after saving $400 million the Bay Bridge is way over priced. The new Bay Bridge, expected to open to traffic in 2013, will replace a structure that has never been quite the same since the 1989 Bay Area earthquake. At $7.2 billion, it will be one of the most expensive structures ever built. But California officials estimate that they will save at least $400 million by having so much of the work done in China.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:27:51 AM EDT
[#36]
ETA: Am I in before the "capitalism, how does it work" or "Fuck China" crowd on this one?
As the OP, you are in before everyone. 
As for the bridge... there HAS to be a lot of dividing by zero by the libs over in Cali. I LOL. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:28:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Well, when you are paying someone less than $1/hour for labor what do you expect. The guy in the article is earning $84/week for working 112 hours. I find it interesting that while CEO's keep turning to China Inc for cheap labor they are not volunteering to take personal cuts in their own compensation package. It's about time that CEO's have their pay cut too. After all we can replace them with a Chinese CEO for about $100,000 a year and save the company several million dollars a year. I bet they are just as good too. How many anti-union Arfcommers are lining up for jobs witch pay under $1.00/hour? And the liberal comes out in you. That "greedy" CEO is running a company. If she/he isn't successful - they don't last long. Besides - the CEO of Exxon, Rex W. Tillerson, gets paid $1.87 million. Think that is a lot? That's just 0.005-pct of the revenue ($363.96B) of the company. Was GE's CEO Jack Welsh worth the money? Look at what he did for that company over his career there. Besides, didn't Allan Mulally volunteer to work for $1? The CEO's make too much argument won't (shouldn't) get you far on a forum that believes in open markets and capitalism. FYI. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:30:21 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
I hate to say it but I would rather the commies here build it than the commies over there
FTRC (fuck the red chinese) I don't want the Red Chinese to do it, but anything that bites the Union leeches in the ass, makes me  .
FBHO and his Union constituency.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:33:50 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
I bet without union politicians artificially pumping up the costs of the bridge construction we could have built it here. The frightening thing here is that our construction is so inefficient that it is cheaper to ship an entire fucking bridge across the largest ocean in the world during record high fuel prices, rather than just build it. we be fucked. If you want to bet your ass on Chinese steel ok, I will not. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 11:37:43 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I bet without union politicians artificially pumping up the costs of the bridge construction we could have built it here. The frightening thing here is that our construction is so inefficient that it is cheaper to ship an entire fucking bridge across the largest ocean in the world during record high fuel prices, rather than just build it. we be fucked. If you want to bet your ass on Chinese steel ok, I will not. i thoght most of our steel came from there anyway. Haven't most US steeel mills gone the way of the Dodo? |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:03:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Who cares? The bridge goes to Oakland..... 
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:13:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
A cheap Chinese made, double deck bridge, in an earthquake prone heavily populated area? What could possibly go wrong? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Dude, it's like you are reading my mind...............
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:13:44 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
More places you haters won't be able to drive In New York City alone, Chinese companies have won contracts to help renovate the subway system, refurbish the Alexander Hamilton Bridge over the Harlem River and build a new Metro-North train platform near Yankee Stadium. As with the Bay Bridge, American union labor would carry out most of the work done on United States soil.
Even after saving $400 million the Bay Bridge is way over priced. The new Bay Bridge, expected to open to traffic in 2013, will replace a structure that has never been quite the same since the 1989 Bay Area earthquake. At $7.2 billion, it will be one of the most expensive structures ever built. But California officials estimate that they will save at least $400 million by having so much of the work done in China. Don't worry. The tolls will pay for it....in 29 years. Presuming there is no interest on the $7.2B, and there is no maintenance needed, and payroll expenses. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:18:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I bet without union politicians artificially pumping up the costs of the bridge construction we could have built it here. The frightening thing here is that our construction is so inefficient that it is cheaper to ship an entire fucking bridge across the largest ocean in the world during record high fuel prices, rather than just build it. we be fucked. If you want to bet your ass on Chinese steel ok, I will not. i thoght most of our steel came from there anyway. Haven't most US steeel mills gone the way of the Dodo? No. I'm in the light structural steel business. Actually most of the mills that I buy from are local to CONUS. CMOS |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:21:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
More places you haters won't be able to drive In New York City alone, Chinese companies have won contracts to help renovate the subway system, refurbish the Alexander Hamilton Bridge over the Harlem River and build a new Metro-North train platform near Yankee Stadium. As with the Bay Bridge, American union labor would carry out most of the work done on United States soil.
Even after saving $400 million the Bay Bridge is way over priced. The new Bay Bridge, expected to open to traffic in 2013, will replace a structure that has never been quite the same since the 1989 Bay Area earthquake. At $7.2 billion, it will be one of the most expensive structures ever built. But California officials estimate that they will save at least $400 million by having so much of the work done in China. Don't worry. The tolls will pay for it....in 29 years. Presuming there is no interest on the $7.2B, and there is no maintenance needed, and payroll expenses. The tolls will never pay for it. They promised that for the PA Turnpike back in 1940, and work always magically appeared that kept the tols in effect. We had two Governors who came this >< close to getting it paid off and ending tolls (Thornburgh & Ridge), then the Democrats loaded it up with more projects for their cronies, and it is back to debt service. We should farm our government out to China. They couldn't screw it up any worse than the current lot, and we wouldn't spend 1/10th the cost. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:23:18 PM EDT
[#46]
From my experience with Chinese building and fabrication...
As long as US/European guys were literally there 24/7 with the Chinese as it was being built, checked and double checked every piece from delivery to the assembly site to final product, and then tested/measured everything three more times then it might be OK. The minute you turn your back on one of them they're half-assing it. Of course they might want to do one good job so they can get more and half-ass their way through the other jobs. Oh, and California saved a bunch of money by switching to Geico China. That should say something. Now if the Chinese start actually assembling shit over here (they won't, unions won't let them) then you will see big savings. I know a few guys out there from American Bridge...it would be interesting to see how well the install went with Chinese materials. Of course I've also seen the fabricators vs engineers vs construction folks battle before which means there's lots of screw ups on all sides and it becomes very hard to determine just one area of mistakes. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:24:28 PM EDT
[#47]
Yeah tough call.
Can't allow infrastructure to go bad because it can greatly impact commerce, but at the same time you're buying overseas and not doing anything to help getting people work to do. In the end, I think it was a better option to go to China on this particular project, as much as it pains to say it. Maybe now, the Unions will get a wake up call and finally see that they are destructive to progress. |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:25:26 PM EDT
[#48]
The best choice is obvious... just stay within the State and non-union.
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:27:28 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I bet without union politicians artificially pumping up the costs of the bridge construction we could have built it here. The frightening thing here is that our construction is so inefficient that it is cheaper to ship an entire fucking bridge across the largest ocean in the world during record high fuel prices, rather than just build it. we be fucked. If you want to bet your ass on Chinese steel ok, I will not. i thoght most of our steel came from there anyway. Haven't most US steeel mills gone the way of the Dodo? No. I'm in the light structural steel business. Actually most of the mills that I buy from are local to CONUS. CMOS I also am involved with this type of work. Alot of times, the steel has to be made in the U.S... "Buy American Project".. Maybe their shipping U.S. steel to China and then shipping it back after fabrication???? |
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Posted: 6/28/2011 12:28:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: The best choice is obvious... just stay within the State and non-union. Can't do it. All government work MUST use union labor. That's why this is being built in China. Out of country = outside the rule book. |
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