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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:08:19 AM EDT
[#1]
About like Jan. 6th being an insurrection…
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:08:28 AM EDT
[#2]
I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:10:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. QFTMFT |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:10:49 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:14:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Three shots in 6 seconds on a moving target With a WWII Carcano?
You must be very good. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:18:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three shots in 6 seconds on a moving target With a WWII Carcano? You must be very good. I shot 3 does at 100 yards once, a shot every 2 seconds, using a model 7 bolt action in 308 while standing, and the last 2 running after the first shot. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:18:58 AM EDT
[#7]
Was that written after Hathcock’s death when he could not refute the quote?
I suspect some fibbing going on. The shots weren’t all that difficult. That said, was there a guy by the RR track fence or in the storm gutter with a Remington XP100 in .222 rem as well? It would not surprise me at all. Trust no one Mulder.  I just pulled out the 7.35mm Carcano. Bone dry action, no ammo, I dry fired at thee objects approx 80 yards away that needed me to swing in a 70 degree arc. First dry run was a smidge slower than six seconds. I had a hitch in the first unlocking of the bolt as I hadn’t cycled it in years. There is kind of a increase in force needed at 87% of the upstroke. once that was identified there was no issue in bolt cycle. Second run was in five seconds. Granted no ammo was fired. I would likely have hit at least 2 out of three as had Oswald and recoil recover would have taken a slosh of time. They did a tower video on a range with pro shooters and novice shooters on a documentary I once watched with a 6.5 carcano set up. They found it doable. None of the shots are that far. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:19:50 AM EDT
[#8]
Everyone talks about the fact there's no way for a shooter to make those shots.
What if Oswald just got lucky? |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:21:30 AM EDT
[#9]
Ask George Hickey, oh wait you can't. That's why the M16 was pulled from secret service use a couple days after Kennedy was killed.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:22:06 AM EDT
[#10]
What do they mean by "DUPLICATING the shots"? Do they mean three trigger pulls with two of them striking the target? Or do they mean placing the rounds EXACTLY where LHO put them (flyer, neck, head)? The first is a trivial task. The second relies so much on momentary happenstance that it's impossible, just like buck19delta could shoot 3 deer again if he had to, but putting rounds in exactly the same spot on three deer in the same setup will never ever happen.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:22:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: I try to read 12 non-fiction books a year. This month's selection on my list was The JFK Assassination: Facts They Don't Want You To Know, by Philippe Cassard. Cassard is a European. One of his opinions, and he says most Europeans are of the same opinion, is that Americans are nuts or thinking a lone, crazed gunman could have pulled off the shots that happened in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, on November 22, 1963. In the chapter where Cassard examines ballistic evidence, there was this passage, which I thought arfcommers would find interesting: ...veteran, Carlos Hathcock, the best Marine fighter, confirmed that he had tried to carry out a series of gunshots in Quantico Marine Corps base under the same conditions as those Oswald was supposed to use on Dealey Plaza. Hathcock summed up the impossible task: "Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything ... I don’t know how many times we tried it but we couldn’t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now, if I can’t do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qualified on the rifle range and later only qualified as ‘marksman’ do it?" Relevant footnotes to the passage: 1. Jesse Ventura – They Killed Our President – 2013. Skyhorse Publishing, Inc. 2. Roberts Craig–Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza–1994. Consolidated Press I was alive and remember exactly where I was when I heard JFK was killed, even though I did not understand the implications at the time. I have a book on the Warren Commission Report that I inherited from my father, who, as a Korean War vet and lifetime hunter proclaimed tthat the report was "pure T horsesh*t". I did not know that Hathcock had participated in the reenactment, or that he had voiced an opinion. They have recreated the shots and it could be done. Some luck is involved but it is possible. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:23:12 AM EDT
[#12]
No one could hit a target at 90 yards.
That's just way too far. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:24:43 AM EDT
[#13]
i have looked into this before and agree the shots were not obtainable by a single shooter given the known variables
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:25:12 AM EDT
[#14]
Still got the shovel
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:25:42 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:25:48 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. 88 yds on a slow-moving target. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:26:27 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: About like Jan. 6th being an insurrection… Bingo... only a lefty would even attempt firing on a moving target moving to the right. Oswald was right handed. The FBI commented that the rifle was zeroed for a left handed shooter... and zeroed by shimming the scope. We'll never know the truth about the most infamous murder in history. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:26:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Didn't someone ~20 years ago set up an on range mock up of the location including a moving tram of dummy targets? They could pull it off repeatedly. It's something like 66 yards, right?
You can believe .gov, or you can believe the craziest conspiracy theory, but the repository to car shot was doable by someone with experience. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:27:22 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three shots in 6 seconds on a moving target With a WWII Carcano? You must be very good. the Carcano is nowhere the crap rifle it was made out to be. It had huge numbers for foreign nation buys. It's a pretty decent rifle. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:27:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Back...and to the left
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:27:58 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't someone ~20 years ago set up an on range mock up of the location including a moving tram of dummy targets? They could pull it off repeatedly. It's something like 66 yards, right? You can believe .gov, or you can believe the craziest conspiracy theory, but the repository to car shot was doable by someone with experience. This is arfcom where everyone just hoards guns but never shoots them. 
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:28:31 AM EDT
[#22]
If Biden gets re-elected they will probably just come out and say "Yeah we did it. WTF are you going to do about it"?
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:28:46 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everyone talks about the fact there's no way for a shooter to make those shots. What if Oswald just got lucky? I’m not familiar with a Carcano but three shots from an M4 would be butter from up here. Those trees weren’t blocking his view back in ‘63. That being said, I don’t think Oswald acted alone.  Attached File |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:28:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everyone talks about the fact there's no way for a shooter to make those shots. What if Oswald just got lucky? What if Oswald wasn’t the only shooter? |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:30:12 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if Oswald wasn’t the only shooter? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Everyone talks about the fact there's no way for a shooter to make those shots. What if Oswald just got lucky? What if Oswald wasn’t the only shooter? Mas Ayoob had a pretty good convincing article for it way back when. related: https://www.backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/understanding-evidentiary-video-point-2/ |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:30:13 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No one could hit a target at 90 yards. That's just way too far. I’ve seen arfcommers shoot. I understand why so many here think it’s impossible. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:30:21 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: I try to read 12 non-fiction books a year. This month's selection on my list was The JFK Assassination: Facts They Don't Want You To Know, by Philippe Cassard. Cassard is a European. One of his opinions, and he says most Europeans are of the same opinion, is that Americans are nuts or thinking a lone, crazed gunman could have pulled off the shots that happened in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, on November 22, 1963. In the chapter where Cassard examines ballistic evidence, there was this passage, which I thought arfcommers would find interesting: ...veteran, Carlos Hathcock, the best Marine fighter, confirmed that he had tried to carry out a series of gunshots in Quantico Marine Corps base under the same conditions as those Oswald was supposed to use on Dealey Plaza. Hathcock summed up the impossible task: "Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything ... I don’t know how many times we tried it but we couldn’t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now, if I can’t do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qualified on the rifle range and later only qualified as ‘marksman’ do it?" Relevant footnotes to the passage: 1. Jesse Ventura – They Killed Our President – 2013. Skyhorse Publishing, Inc. 2. Roberts Craig–Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza–1994. Consolidated Press I was alive and remember exactly where I was when I heard JFK was killed, even though I did not understand the implications at the time. I have a book on the Warren Commission Report that I inherited from my father, who, as a Korean War vet and lifetime hunter proclaimed tthat the report was "pure T horsesh*t". I did not know that Hathcock had participated in the reenactment, or that he had voiced an opinion. Which Carlos Hathock? The sniper or the “best marine fighter”? The language used there is so corny that I’m picturing a Chariots of the Gods type publication and then on top of that he’s citing Jesse Ventura? I also question how much time is spent by “Europeans” discussing the assassination of JFK. I mean, the assassination of Franz Ferdinand kicked off WW1 and we barely care about that. So I’m a bit curious exactly how intriguing the assassination of JFK is to Europeans and if they regularly sit around discussing it and shaking their heads at us gullible Americans. Now, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if other parties were involved. I’d even go so far as to say I lean in that direction. But the idea has been around so long, I don’t think it would change my life at all if they finally figured it out or someone came forward. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:30:47 AM EDT
[#28]
He was only like 80m from the target supported on a window. I've never shot a scoped carcano but I wanted to do a 100yd speed/accuracy test between my M1 Garand and M48 Mauser using 40 rounds each since that was the lowest division amount for each due to clip sizes. Even using the stupidly hot (and heavy recoiling) 8mm ammo, without using a sling by laying prone on the grass I got my first 5 rounds off in only a couple seconds with the M48 and they were all hit on a 50 or 100yd NRA target using iron sights.
Also, there might be some missing context in hathcock's statement. He might have been talking about trying to reproduce everything including the "magic bullet" which has since been debunked due to the missed height difference in the seats in the limo that wasn't originally accounted for. If you put his statement in that context it makes a lot more sense. I'm routinely making 6-8" steel hits with a MK18 and M193 at 300yards with an MRO optic. I think a half way capable person could easily get those shots off with a scoped rifle. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:31:06 AM EDT
[#29]
 Attached FileThat's because the CIA had other assets on the ground to make sure the job was done. FOIA request for documents on Operation King Friday brought some shit to light. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:31:15 AM EDT
[#30]
Check out Mortal Error. The author is one of 2 people that have written a book who actually have an understanding of ballistics and forensics and he made the shots in time at speed with hits on a life sized range.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:32:14 AM EDT
[#31]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_Reloaded
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:32:15 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. Things you aren't taking into account: - It was 3 shots in just under 6 seconds on a bolt action rifle. Two have to be hits. - Target was moving. Albeit slowly, it was moving. - Stress (time, cover, ensuring you're not seen/stopped by others in the building, etc) - Tree and foliage in the way (at the time). - Crappy rifle and crappy ammo. I'm not saying that Oswald didn't do it - just pointing out the absurdity of simply going to Dealey Plaza, into the TSBD and looking out the window thinking, "wow - what an easy shot". |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:32:16 AM EDT
[#33]
JFK was shot from less than 100 yards with a 4X scoped rifle, and he wasn't traversing at an perfectly perpendicular angle. Not that difficult.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:32:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ask George Hickey, oh wait you can't. That's why the M16 was pulled from secret service use a couple days after Kennedy was killed. This guy knows... |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:33:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. Same. Like a 14 year old who shoots a lot of squirrels could pull it off. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:35:08 AM EDT
[#36]
 The Cosmo Kramer "Magic Loogie" incident |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:35:44 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: JFK was shot from less than 100 yards with a 4X scoped rifle, and he wasn't traversing at an perfectly perpendicular angle. Not that difficult. And the limo was slowed down |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:36:46 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: I try to read 12 non-fiction books a year. This month's selection on my list was The JFK Assassination: Facts They Don't Want You To Know, by Philippe Cassard. Cassard is a European. One of his opinions, and he says most Europeans are of the same opinion, is that Americans are nuts or thinking a lone, crazed gunman could have pulled off the shots that happened in Dealy Plaza, Dallas, on November 22, 1963. In the chapter where Cassard examines ballistic evidence, there was this passage, which I thought arfcommers would find interesting: ...veteran, Carlos Hathcock, the best Marine fighter, confirmed that he had tried to carry out a series of gunshots in Quantico Marine Corps base under the same conditions as those Oswald was supposed to use on Dealey Plaza. Hathcock summed up the impossible task: "Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything ... I don’t know how many times we tried it but we couldn’t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now, if I can’t do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qualified on the rifle range and later only qualified as ‘marksman’ do it?" Relevant footnotes to the passage: 1. Jesse Ventura – They Killed Our President – 2013. Skyhorse Publishing, Inc. 2. Roberts Craig–Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza–1994. Consolidated Press I was alive and remember exactly where I was when I heard JFK was killed, even though I did not understand the implications at the time. I have a book on the Warren Commission Report that I inherited from my father, who, as a Korean War vet and lifetime hunter proclaimed tthat the report was "pure T horsesh*t". I did not know that Hathcock had participated in the reenactment, or that he had voiced an opinion. There's a phenomenon known as "luck". How many times have you watched a sporting event, especially at lower skill levels (high school, etc) and seen some stupid lucky play happen that could be attributed to skill but was obviously just dumb luck. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:37:11 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And the limo was slowed down The shots have been duplicated numerous times by decent riflrman for various TV documentaries. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:37:46 AM EDT
[#40]
Hathcock was probably trying to duplicate hit locations. Oswald was going for hits on a man sized target, and the rounds hit where they did by luck.
Under 100 yards, on a man moving at walking speed. Any deet hunter could make that shot. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:37:59 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: QFTMFT Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. QFTMFT yep, been to the repository, looked out the same window. it's not a difficult shot at all |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:38:16 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everyone talks about the fact there's no way for a shooter to make those shots. What if Oswald just got lucky? That makes a lot more sense than anything else I’ve ever heard. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:38:22 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ask George Hickey, oh wait you can't. That's why the M16 was pulled from secret service use a couple days after Kennedy was killed. Now that is a fascinating story. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:38:45 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Three shots in 6 seconds on a moving target With a WWII Carcano? You must be very good. you really need to go to the repository. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:39:25 AM EDT
[#45]
New Rifle Drill
Marilyn Monroe's Revenge 90 yard silhouette attached to a moving toy train. 3 shots. Par value 6 seconds. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:42:08 AM EDT
[#46]
We can watch live footage of our president being gruesomely murdered over and over again but we can't see footage of Osama getting allegedly killed?!
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:42:40 AM EDT
[#47]
The original popular American conspiracy theory. This has been shown to be nonsense time and time again, anyone who can shoot who goes and looks at it in person can clearly see it's not a difficult shot. And yet, here we are.
Oliver Stone prepped the battlespace for Loose Change and then it was off to the races with broadband internet. We'll never live in a shared reality ever again. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:42:45 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ask George Hickey, oh wait you can't. That's why the M16 was pulled from secret service use a couple days after Kennedy was killed. This. Fatal shot came from ground level behind him by accident. Although I do believe Oswald was there as part of a plot and not solo. |
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:45:49 AM EDT
[#49]
Carlos should have practiced more.
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Posted: 10/30/2023 9:45:58 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been there, and looked out the window to the X they have painted on the street. A half ass rifle shooter could make that shot easy. I went there a few years back and looking out that same window this was my thought as well. |
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