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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:39:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I get that the chips in cars aren't especially profitable for chip makers to produce, so they are scaling back production in favor of much higher margin chips (which are also in short supply). I am curious, though, just how many chips does a modern car actually have? god, probably a couple thousand. the amount of modules on a modern car is quite high in 2015 a TF/QF Kia Optima had like 15 MAX or so computer modules that i can talk to with plenty of other microprocessors that i cant now a top end 2021 K5? over 30 and i can run in series on all 6 or so CAN line on too. in the end its geting to the point where they are self propelled computers rather than mechanical transportation. its a big reason i like old classic 6V cars, they dont have any of this stuff. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:40:34 PM EDT
[#2]
A LOT.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:41:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: god, probably a couple thousand You're not shitting me? |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:42:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not shitting me? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: god, probably a couple thousand You're not shitting me? Sure, everything is semiconductors now Hundreds in your tv |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:43:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Average car is about 1,500.
Luxury and high tech gadgets can jet that up rapidly. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:44:24 PM EDT
[#6]
When I quit the dealership life cars started going from having about three computers to having 7 to 10. I'm sure they have many more computers now. I could not imagine how many chips are in one.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:45:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Idk but my location tractor dealer is trying to beg, borrow or steal me a tractor as a loaner or a replacement because the eta on my new machine is unknown. This is 100% Obamas fault for the epa bullshit he passed on diesels. I hope I live to see all of those smug fucks starve to death.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:45:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Average over a thousand, luxury cars probably several thousand
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:45:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I get that the chips in cars aren't especially profitable for chip makers to produce, so they are scaling back production in favor of much higher margin chips (which are also in short supply). I am curious, though, just how many chips does a modern car actually have? CNBC says up to 1,400 chips in a car. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/14/chip-shortage-expected-to-cost-auto-industry-110-billion-in-2021.html |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:47:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Some newer Beamers have 35 different circuit boards in them, some have three or four chips and some have quite a few.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:47:27 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm more impressed at having at least 4 threads on the first page.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:48:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm more impressed at having at least 4 threads on the first page. I'm good at creating interesting topics to discuss. A service I provide; completely free of charge. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:49:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: CNBC says up to 1,400 chips in a car. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/14/chip-shortage-expected-to-cost-auto-industry-110-billion-in-2021.html quite brand dependent too, Hyundai group is huge on tech so we have more than most. luckily for us alot of our tech has good consolidation of control as well just enough dispersion to allow general functionality if a module goes dead. so even if your audio control head unit goes out your HVAC controls work fine with no impediment because the analog controls still put in the main imput even though you might not get any display on the audio screen. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:49:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Average over a thousand, luxury cars probably several thousand Good lord. Any idea how many are processors vs various memory modules? |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:51:05 PM EDT
[#15]
Fuck modern cars.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:52:22 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good lord. Any idea how many are processors vs various memory modules? Details are way above my pay grade, perhaps some of the modern car mechs can answer this |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:54:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Just to point out to the non-technically inclined that "chips" -- integrated circuits or ICs -- aren't fungible, you can't just
swap out one with another unless it's literally the same design, spec, etc. Some like microcontroller may be large and cost a few dollars, while others like op amps and low-power regulators will be tiny, the size of a grain of rice or so and cost 10 or 20 cents. A given module will have a microcontroller plus dozens to hundreds of support components, things like voltage regulators, interface chips that connect the module to the communications bus, power driver chips that can supply enough current to run an actuator, lamp, heater or whatever. A lot of cluster groups of buttons will have their own module to cut down on wiring. You can see how the math scales up -- have a big module like an ECU with 100-200 chips, smaller modules with 20 chips, 20 of those = 400 chips. Many of the sensors will have ICs in them as well and there's probably 100 sensors in a car. All it takes is one of those tiny ones that costs 10 cents but is unique to be unavailable and no module, no module and possibly no car. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:56:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good lord. Any idea how many are processors vs various memory modules? each of the 30 some odd modules i can talk to on a K5 has stored memory if even just flash stuff. i would say there is at least 15 legit traditional processors on most modern cars with a unknown huge number of dumb "on-or-off" decision makers. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:57:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Wouldn’t you have one to control the climate, one for lighting, trailer brake controller, 4x4, engine, door locks, windows, wifi, transmission, etc
Ohh yea you need one for directional headlights, blind spot monitoring needs a chip, the engine probably is controlled by a computer and then emissions monitored by another chip, I doubt the navigation, fm, xm, and backup camera work on the same chip, they just use the same screen. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:57:51 PM EDT
[#20]
A metric SHIT ton.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:58:06 PM EDT
[#21]
More chips than a bag of lays.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:58:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A LOT. Plus a fucking metric fuckton more. Who doesn’t know that? |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 9:59:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn’t you have one to control the climate, one for lighting, trailer brake controller, 4x4, engine, door locks, windows, wifi, transmission, etc yes actually. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:00:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A metric SHIT ton. especially the metric part 
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:00:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More chips than a bag of lays. at least 25 family size bags |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:02:44 PM EDT
[#26]
Almost as many as the amount of threads you're starting tonight
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:06:04 PM EDT
[#27]
OP, start thinking semiconductors. Not nust integrated circuits or central processors or ASIC.
It’s a semiconductor shortage. The basic building block. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:07:34 PM EDT
[#28]
and this is what cars have become.
gone are the days of old. even techs them selves have had to change, almost all the old guys just cant deal with this shit. you need a legit geek or nerd who is willing to endure physical pain to fix a modern car. it went from a 0.001 of a inch at a time and a volt hear and there. to now a 0.001 of a inch at a time, 5v here 12v there 220v over here and a component resistance spec of 3.3k ohms as well as talking to two modules at once and a tech case on the computer. . it sucks and i do it every fucking day, ugh. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:12:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wouldn’t you have one to control the climate, one for lighting, trailer brake controller, 4x4, engine, door locks, windows, wifi, transmission, etc Ohh yea you need one for directional headlights, blind spot monitoring needs a chip, the engine probably is controlled by a computer and then emissions monitored by another chip, I doubt the navigation, fm, xm, and backup camera work on the same chip, they just use the same screen. It get worse when you have 4 windows switches in the car, each one is a control module of its own sending signals , not direct power feeds There are chips in each of your keys. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:15:15 PM EDT
[#30]
It's all ball bearings nowadays.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:15:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's all ball bearings nowadays. if only. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:17:59 PM EDT
[#32]
I could say a lot but I won't
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:19:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: god, probably a couple thousand. the amount of modules on a modern car is quite high in 2015 a TF/QF Kia Optima had like 15 MAX or so computer modules that i can talk to with plenty of other microprocessors that i cant now a top end 2021 K5? over 30 and i can run in series on all 6 or so CAN line on too. in the end its geting to the point where they are self propelled computers rather than mechanical transportation. its a big reason i like old classic 6V cars, they dont have any of this stuff. Is that one of the reasons extended warranties are running near $4K now? |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:20:22 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck modern cars. 
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:22:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that one of the reasons extended warranties are running near $4K now? very much so but most are around 2k for more normal coverage, depends on many other factors to. for Hyundai group stuff Allstate and Vehicle one are both good. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:26:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could say a lot but I won't you can explain what a turboencabulator does and i can explain a electrophasecomputator can do
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:33:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: I get that the chips in cars aren't especially profitable for chip makers to produce, so they are scaling back production in favor of much higher margin chips (which are also in short supply). I am curious, though, just how many chips does a modern car actually have? A lot. Not just big systems like ECU, ABS, etc., even down to blend doors have them. And the issue is that you can't just grab other common chips to replace them, automotive-spec chips have much higher over-voltage tolerance, transient tolerance, reverse-voltage tolerance, higher temperatures, etc.. This is compounded in anything with NVRAM (like the embedded microcontrollers) because the higher the temps, the shorter the timespan before the NVRAM will "forget" bits. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:41:51 PM EDT
[#38]
I am almost ready to go full-on luddite. What benefit do I really get from a car packed with 87 computers vs. something from 20 or even 30 years ago?
IDGAF about backup cameras, GPS, keyless start/entry, airbags for my balls, or any of this bullshit. Unless the thing fucking drives itself I am not impressed. All I want is something comfortable and reliable with an adequate amount of power. Guess it's time to buy some good examples of 'analog' cars and become one of those weird old curmudgeons i always laughed at as a kid |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:46:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am almost ready to go full-on luddite. What benefit do I really get from a car packed with 87 computers vs. something from 20 or even 30 years ago? IDGAF about backup cameras, GPS, keyless start/entry, airbags for my balls, or any of this bullshit. Unless the thing fucking drives itself I am not impressed. All I want is something comfortable and reliable with an adequate amount of power. Guess it's time to buy some good examples of 'analog' cars and become one of those weird old curmudgeons i always laughed at as a kid precession. customer demands have forced all of this. all of it. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:47:24 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm more impressed at having at least 4 threads on the first page. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:47:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP, start thinking semiconductors. Not nust integrated circuits or central processors or ASIC. It’s a semiconductor shortage. The basic building block. This. I think people hear "chips" and think "processor", or maybe "memory". But when the news is reporting a "chip" shortage right now, they mean a general semiconductor shortage, affecting a large array of ICs - which could be anything from processors and microcontrollers to memory, from regulators to converters, etc. From what I understand, basic transistors are largely unaffected, but anything more complicated may be subject to delays. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:50:04 PM EDT
[#42]
You know I've seen points and coil ignitions and mags over a 120 years old that still work well with original parts
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Posted: 7/21/2021 10:56:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: precession. customer demands have forced all of this. all of it. Yeah I get that. That's what people want so that's what they should make. Just sucks to be the odd one out; no one makes a car for luddites 
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Posted: 7/21/2021 11:00:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I get that. That's what people want so that's what they should make. Just sucks to be the odd one out; no one makes a car for luddites Based on your earlier statements, I'm guessing you are saying you would like a car without any need for semiconductors at all. You'll be hard pressed to find anybody else to agree with that desire, snice it means going back to points ignition. It's inconceivable that anybody would go back to such systems for new production. Now, something simpler than today, but still modern enough to have fuel injection? That's something I can agree with, but it's not likely to ever be seen again either. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 11:02:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Just looked in my phone app. A 21 aviator non hybrid has 60+ modules on the various networks. The network section in the wiring diagrams for a non hybrid is 29 pages. A hybrid will have more.
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Posted: 7/21/2021 11:03:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just to point out to the non-technically inclined .. Which is basically "almost everyone" |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 11:07:50 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Average over a thousand, luxury cars probably several thousand So glad I have two cars that don't know what a microchip is. |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 11:10:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: god, probably a couple thousand. the amount of modules on a modern car is quite high in 2015 a TF/QF Kia Optima had like 15 MAX or so computer modules that i can talk to with plenty of other microprocessors that i cant now a top end 2021 K5? over 30 and i can run in series on all 6 or so CAN line on too. in the end its geting to the point where they are self propelled computers rather than mechanical transportation. its a big reason i like old classic 6V cars, they dont have any of this stuff.  |
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Posted: 7/21/2021 11:12:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Entire car and engine wiring schematic
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Posted: 7/21/2021 11:16:34 PM EDT
[#50]
Engine. Transmission. Brakes. Air bags. A/C control.
So I'll say 27... |
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