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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:00:04 PM EST
[#1]
Catholic Ten Commandments
1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve. 2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. 3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. 4. Honor your father and your mother. 5. You shall not kill. 6. You shall not commit adultery. 7. You shall not steal. 8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 9. You shall not covet your neighbors wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbors goods. Christian Ten Commandments 1. I am the Lord your God: you shall have no other gods but me. 2. You shall not make for yourself any idol. 3. You shall not dishonour the name of the Lord your God. 4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. 5. Honour your father and mother. 6. You shall not commit murder. 7. You shall not commit adultery. 8. You shall not steal. 9. You shall not be a false witness. 10. You shall not covet anything which belongs to your neighbour. In the catholic world, its okay to make idols (Like saints as idols) In the catholic world, they had to add coveting your neighbors wife even thought the tenth commandment is pretty to to covet "anything" of your neighbors which includes his wife. During the Council of Laodicea in 363-364 AD the Catholics decided to change some things in the bible. (Not quite sure how they got this power, but alas.......) Here are some of the highlights: One of the goals of this council was to discourage Sabbath keeping in the Eastern Roman Empire during this time; most Christians in the East still observed the Sabbath. The canons, or final conclusions issues by council, confirm this detail. We have some quotes below: “Canon 16: The Gospels are to be read on the Sabbath [i.e. Saturday], with the other Scriptures. Canon 29: Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and, as being Christians, shall if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ. Canon 37: No one shall accept festal presents from Jews and heretics, or keep the festivals with them.” Basically the Catholic's changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday to suit themselves. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:00:23 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would you talk with a parent? A teacher? A trusted confidant? Why, especially why, not seek out a known glorified Christian? People find inspiration in certain people and stories. Mary is particularly admirable. The real question here is, why create a theology that effectively demonizes a practice and understanding that dates back to the earliest Church, and why use semantic trickery to do so? In the Lord's prayer (our model on how to pray) Christ prayed to the Father. God does NOT have a parent Praying to a saint would be the same as You praying to Me (as I'm a Believer) |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:03:20 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the Lord's prayer (our model on how to pray) Christ prayed to the Father. God does NOT have a parent Praying to a saint would be the same as You praying to Me (as I'm a Believer) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why would you talk with a parent? A teacher? A trusted confidant? Why, especially why, not seek out a known glorified Christian? People find inspiration in certain people and stories. Mary is particularly admirable. The real question here is, why create a theology that effectively demonizes a practice and understanding that dates back to the earliest Church, and why use semantic trickery to do so? In the Lord's prayer (our model on how to pray) Christ prayed to the Father. God does NOT have a parent Praying to a saint would be the same as You praying to Me (as I'm a Believer) No it wouldn't. You ask freinds, fellow beleivers, to pray for you, yes? SAme principle involved. Catholics don't pray to the saints, they ask for their prayers to God. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:10:13 PM EST
[#4]
Catholics are Christians
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:12:10 PM EST
[#5]
Jesus > Catholic Church > Heretics
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:15:18 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's cool - you're allowed to feel how you feel. The only thing I would recommend is to look at the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism (Lutheranism in your case specifically) and try to reconcile those differences for yourself. Maybe you decide that they don't warrant changing anything, or maybe something will be really important to you after you look at it in detail. The only other thing I will say is that I am doubtful of you theological foundation in Catholicism based on your " I always found it odd to focus so highly on Mary and a lot of the appearance of Catholicism seemed to be making a spectacle of worship" comment. It sounds like what an antagonistic Protestant might say about Catholicism without understanding the details. That's why I said that it's so important to actually do a deep dive into why Christian faiths believe what they do. Good luck and I encourage you to continue your faith journey.  I would not really consider a defiant youth who typically thought he was smarter than everyone going to catholic school for k-5 a particularly stable theological foundation. Not that i didn't understand what was taught, but i arrived at my own questions or, doubts. I can't really say any of my religious teachers of the time had any great impact on me either. It is ultimately what I have returned to though. The anecdote you quoted was me trying to relate my journey a bit and doesn't entirely reflect my beliefs today. Some of the details of what I think would likely raise an eyebrow in a lot or circles but that is where i find myself to reconcile faith and my understanding of the world. To go a bit further on my statement about Mary and you can feel free to offer your insight, I understand and agree that she should be venerated as the mother of Christ, a link between humanity and the divine and accept her assumption and coronation. But maybe don't agree with the amount of prayer to her and the statues being prayed to... The scriptural details on the assumption are sparse and could easily be argued as interpretive. The Unites States Conference of Catholic Bishops offers this “Behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.” - Luke 1:48-49 as tue reading for the assumption while praying the rosary. Which is kind of part of the visitation, the assumption isn't explicitly stated anywhere and was only defined in 1950 by Pius XII. We get a bit more of a clear verse on the coronation “A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” - Revelation 12:1 I am not sure who else this could be other than the Blessed Virgin Mary. If we look a little more historically at the rosary it was more traditionally prayed using the Lord's Prayer at least for commoners, with the recitation of the psalms being the more formal practice. There was much debate about the institution of the Rosary through st Dominic with an eventual appeal to authority of the papacy as the final word on the matter... We also have the evolution of the Hail Mary. The first two lines "Hail Mary full of grace the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus." Have direct scriptural support in the annunciation and visitation but tue latter half asking for her intercession on our behalf was added later. And sure i understand apostolic succession and how that makes an appeal to authority legitimate rather than a logical fallacy but looking to our current pope it is difficult to accept some of his teachings as God's will. Which leads one to question the current legitimacy of the claim of apostolic succession. All that said i don't really think it's of much use to focus on those details and the million other questions I have but rather on faith. Maybe a place other than the Catholic church would be a better fit for what is in my mind but the Catholic church i have been attending just feels right... |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:15:33 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it wouldn't. You ask freinds, fellow beleivers, to pray for you, yes? SAme principle involved. Catholics don't pray to the saints, they ask for their prayers to God. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why would you talk with a parent? A teacher? A trusted confidant? Why, especially why, not seek out a known glorified Christian? People find inspiration in certain people and stories. Mary is particularly admirable. The real question here is, why create a theology that effectively demonizes a practice and understanding that dates back to the earliest Church, and why use semantic trickery to do so? In the Lord's prayer (our model on how to pray) Christ prayed to the Father. God does NOT have a parent Praying to a saint would be the same as You praying to Me (as I'm a Believer) No it wouldn't. You ask freinds, fellow beleivers, to pray for you, yes? SAme principle involved. Catholics don't pray to the saints, they ask for their prayers to God. Be careful not to fall into their semantics games. "Pray" has long had many meanings. Certain people try to insist it always means worship, but it has long just been a form of request. I've seen too many people get tripped up in this game. And, that's what it amounts to, a game played by disingenuous tricksters who use the ever-changing idiosyncrasies of language to distract from theology. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:15:56 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Catholics are Christians Act 11:26 - And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. What chapter and verse do I turn to to see the word “Catholic” (or Lutheran, or Episcopalian, or any such denominational name)? Anything not recorded in the scriptures is from man. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:20:19 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Be careful not to fall into their semantics games. "Pray" has long had many meanings. Certain people try to insist it always means worship, but it has long just been a form of request. I've seen too many people get tripped up in this game. And, that's what it amounts to, a game played by disingenuous tricksters who use the ever-changing idiosyncrasies of language to distract from theology. Thank you. I will remember that. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:22:55 PM EST
[#10]
I'm sure you can figure something out. My great grandparents made Catholic and Mormon work for 60+ years.
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:23:58 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SNIP I'll send an IM.
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:24:56 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Be careful not to fall into their semantics games. "Pray" has long had many meanings. Certain people try to insist it always means worship, but it has long just been a form of request. I've seen too many people get tripped up in this game. And, that's what it amounts to, a game played by disingenuous tricksters who use the ever-changing idiosyncrasies of language to distract from theology. That's another thing that tends not to jive for me spiritually. I feel much more comfortable praying to give thanks rather than asking for anything. Who are we to presume and plead for intercession on our behalf when we have already been given so much? |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:33:12 PM EST
[#13]
Looks like we are dealing with the same issues today that Paul was dealing with back in the day.
Many of his letters council the Christians of the early church to avoid contention and not worry about the small differences. Too bad many today who profess belief in the Bible ignore his council. The idea of trying to maintain "brand purity" has existed since Jesus's day. Those early Christians were Jews, but the Jews couldn't handle them being called that, so they labeled them "Christians", or "sect of the Nazarenes" or other such, in their mind, derogatory terms. When the early reformers started their movement, they still considered themselves Catholics and Christians, but the Catholics wouldn't allow it and labeled them "PROTESTants" because they protested against the Catholic church. Just like Jehovahs witnesses or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christians, but the "protestants" think they can maintain brand purity by putting other labels on them. Same thing going on today. Just because someone believes differently then another, they try and label them with a label that shows that difference, even if the base of their beliefs is the same. "Christ" Too bad people focus on the lesser identities (denominations) instead of the greater identity of belief in Jesus Christ. Maybe people need to go back and study Paul's letters again about being one, and avoiding contention, and that there are many parts of the body of Christ. Instead of the Body parts fighting about who is right and who is better, maybe they should focus on working together to fight against the evil in the world. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:36:20 PM EST
[#14]
Boy a bunch of Catholics up on their alter here, It's great to see them look down on others for their beliefs.
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:37:02 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What "proof" is there the thief was never baptized? There is none. That "fact" as you call it is nothing more then your opinion. The Bible never says the thief was saved. The word "paradise" is translated from a word that has several meanings. Often it is just assumed by many to mean heaven, but Christ apparently didn't go to heaven right after his death. As he told Mary on the 3rd day after his death: "I have not yet ascended to my father". So where did Christ and the thief go if it wasn't to heaven? In 1 Peter we read that Christ went and taught the spirits in prison. (19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;) The original wording that "paradise" is translated from can also mean garden, or place of spirits. Just because a spirit goes there does not mean they are saved, thus why Christ still is teaching spirits after one dies. So trying to claim one does not need to be baptized to be saved using that example, is really stretching, and making huge assumptions that the Bible never claims. Jesus himself speaks very clearly on this subject. In Mark we read "16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Granted that the thief did not go to heaven right after death, he did go to Abraham's Bosom, Luke 16:22, and not to the other side of punishment side of Sheol/Hades. There were 2 sides, 1- for those who were righteous and believed in the Messiah and the other was for those who were not and were/are eternally damned. Jesus even mentioned that when He spoke of the rich man,unsaved, and Lazarus, a poor man who was righteous-Luke 16:19-31. It is a point He made to the people. In other words once you die, that is it, there is no second chance for salvation- Hebrews 9:27. What you do/say/believe right now is what counts and only what Jesus/God says, is what counts and what gets you into heaven. After Jesus died, the veil of the temple was ripped/torn in half to signify that there is no need of a human high priest to perform a sacrifice for us anymore for our sins, as Jesus completed His work and became the ultimate sacrifice. If you are a true Christian, you are a priest yourself and have no need for anyone else to confess your sins to God, as you can speak to Him directly through Jesus, Hebrews 10:19-20,John 14:6. Many people unfortunately think Jesus went to Hell and was tormented by the devil and his followers but He did not. He did proclaim who He was to those in Sheol, 1 Pet. 3:18-19, but it was not a second chance at/for salvation, again Heb 9:27. Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice for sins and He said on the cross "It Is Finished", in other words everything He came to do, He did and it was finalized at that moment,1 Peter 2:24. After Christ ascended, He took a host of captives, (those in Abraham's Bosom), with Him to heaven, Ephesians 4:7-10. When it comes to Baptism, it is not a work or physical baptism that saves, but a spiritual baptism as John the Baptist himself said in Matthew 3:11. Anyone who repents of their wicked ways/sins and accepts Christ as their personal savior, he/she is saved and no other work is needed, including a physical baptism. We are saved by Grace through Faith and not of Works, lest any man should boast, Ephesians 2:8-9. It is a free gift, Romans 5:15-18,6:23 and Christ is the only means of salvation. We can't earn our way to Heaven, you just have to have faith in who He says He is and did/still does. The physical baptism is one done by believers to show others/themselves their commitment/following and is not required in the slightest for salvation, as it is a work and not grace. The "works" you do, are because you want to and you want to follow Christ and share with others the means of salvation. Faith is not a work but believing, as Christ did the work, we have only to believe, Romans Chapt 11:6 makes it clear when Paul said, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise, grace is no longer grace.” Jesus was baptized with water, as He was born under the Jewish law and had to "fulfill all righteousness",Isaiah 11 and the Jewish requirements to be a Priest forever under the order of Melchizedek,Psalms 110:4. John was the messenger before the Messiah, Malachi 3:1, John 5:33–35, Matthew 3:15. Jesus lives to intercede for us constantly to the Father and all we have to do is believe, Romans 8:34. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:45:21 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Be careful not to fall into their semantics games. "Pray" has long had many meanings. Certain people try to insist it always means worship, but it has long just been a form of request. I've seen too many people get tripped up in this game. And, that's what it amounts to, a game played by disingenuous tricksters who use the ever-changing idiosyncrasies of language to distract from theology. I'm not playing a semantic game with you, but it always struck me as odd to pray to anyone but God. Perhaps it's because of the relationship I had with my Dad, I just went to him man to man and never through anyone else, whether to say thank you, ask him a question, to ask him for his advice or help. (Or even to say that I took issue with something I did not agree with.) A man or woman should just go to the one whom they need to talk to. Truth is I find it very distasteful and lacking in character when my own son doesn't talk to me directly but goes through my wife or daughter. I guess I was just raised to go to the one I need to speak with. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:53:27 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not playing a semantic game with you, but it always struck me as odd to pray to anyone but God. Perhaps it's because of the relationship I had with my Dad, I just went to him man to man and never through anyone else, whether to say thank you, ask him a question, to ask him for his advice or help. (Or even to say that I took issue with something I did not agree with.) A man or woman should just go to the one whom they need to talk to. Truth is I find it very distasteful and lacking in character when my own son doesn't talk to me directly but goes through my wife or daughter. I guess I was just raised to go to the one I need to speak with. That’s weird man. I usually get as many people praying on my behalf as possibly and I return the favor. I can’t imagine not asking people to pray for me because I feel like I have to go it alone if I need to beseech God. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 3:56:35 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like we are dealing with the same issues today that Paul was dealing with back in the day. Many of his letters council the Christians of the early church to avoid contention and not worry about the small differences. Too bad many today who profess belief in the Bible ignore his council. The idea of trying to maintain "brand purity" has existed since Jesus's day. Those early Christians were Jews, but the Jews couldn't handle them being called that, so they labeled them "Christians", or "sect of the Nazarenes" or other such, in their mind, derogatory terms. When the early reformers started their movement, they still considered themselves Catholics and Christians, but the Catholics wouldn't allow it and labeled them "PROTESTants" because they protested against the Catholic church. Just like Jehovahs witnesses or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christians, but the "protestants" think they can maintain brand purity by putting other labels on them. Same thing going on today. Just because someone believes differently then another, they try and label them with a label that shows that difference, even if the base of their beliefs is the same. "Christ" Maybe people need to go back and study Paul's letters again about being one, and avoiding contention, and that there are many parts of the body of Christ. Instead of the Body parts fighting about who is right and who is better, maybe they should focus on working together to fight against the evil in the world. Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like we are dealing with the same issues today that Paul was dealing with back in the day. Many of his letters council the Christians of the early church to avoid contention and not worry about the small differences. Too bad many today who profess belief in the Bible ignore his council. The idea of trying to maintain "brand purity" has existed since Jesus's day. Those early Christians were Jews, but the Jews couldn't handle them being called that, so they labeled them "Christians", or "sect of the Nazarenes" or other such, in their mind, derogatory terms. When the early reformers started their movement, they still considered themselves Catholics and Christians, but the Catholics wouldn't allow it and labeled them "PROTESTants" because they protested against the Catholic church. Just like Jehovahs witnesses or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are Christians, but the "protestants" think they can maintain brand purity by putting other labels on them. Same thing going on today. Just because someone believes differently then another, they try and label them with a label that shows that difference, even if the base of their beliefs is the same. "Christ" Maybe people need to go back and study Paul's letters again about being one, and avoiding contention, and that there are many parts of the body of Christ. Instead of the Body parts fighting about who is right and who is better, maybe they should focus on working together to fight against the evil in the world. Funny you mention Paul. His first epistle to the Corinthians comes to mind in this thread. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What! Have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not ? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread : and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat; this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come. ... For as the body is one, and hath many members and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free ; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body ; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: and those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honor ; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked: that there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. So, I mean, yeah. It's hard not to take this stuff seriously, if you take it seriously. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:12:31 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Catholic Ten Commandments 1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve. 2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. 3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. 4. Honor your father and your mother. 5. You shall not kill. 6. You shall not commit adultery. 7. You shall not steal. 8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 9. You shall not covet your neighbors wife. 10. You shall not covet your neighbors goods. Christian Ten Commandments 1. I am the Lord your God: you shall have no other gods but me. 2. You shall not make for yourself any idol. 3. You shall not dishonour the name of the Lord your God. 4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. 5. Honour your father and mother. 6. You shall not commit murder. 7. You shall not commit adultery. 8. You shall not steal. 9. You shall not be a false witness. 10. You shall not covet anything which belongs to your neighbour. In the catholic world, its okay to make idols (Like saints as idols) Pardon me for saying/asking, if a Catholic is a Christian and both the sets of commandments you give as examples, don't they contradict themselves? Where in the bible does it say it is okay to pray to Mary or to the dead saints? The commandments were given to the Jews first and were instructed not to pray to idols- Exodus 20:3-6-in the form of anything from the Earth or heaven. It is not okay to make idols and we are to pray to God directly and to no one else as Jesus commanded- Matthew 6:6,1 John 5:21, Romans 1:21-23, Habbakuk 2:18,Isaiah 42:8. Even in Revelation 19:10, where John met an angel and was instructed not to pray to him as he is also a servant of God. Jesus gave us an example of how/who to pray to and the prayer goes directly to the Lord God/Father, Matthew 6:9-13. There is only ONE mediator and that is Jesus, Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14 and no one else. Because of Jesus, we can and are supposed to pray only to God as Jesus says, "no one comes to the Father but by me", John 14:6. Mary was a sinner and was no where near perfect, as were the others who people pray to. Prayer is a form of worship and is only given to God. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:21:01 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Funny you mention Paul. His first epistle to the Corinthians comes to mind in this thread. So, I mean, yeah. It's hard not to take this stuff seriously, if you take it seriously. "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." So who is to say your beliefs are not the ones that are heresies? The Catholic church believed the Protestant beliefs were heretical. The protestants were/are essentially preaching another gospel as Paul warned. Again why focus on the lesser identities and not the greater identity of belief in Christ. That is what both Paul and Christ preached. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:23:30 PM EST
[#21]
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:25:57 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The idea that this is contradictory, is indeed "malarkey." Why is Mary significant? Why are the Saints? They all point to Christ. To suggest otherwise is to deliberately try not to understand. 1 Corinthians 1:2 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: All believers are 'saints' |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:27:23 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: " For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." So who is to say your beliefs are not the ones that are heresies? The Catholic church believed the Protestant beliefs were heretical. The protestants were/are essentially preaching another gospel as Paul warned. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Funny you mention Paul. His first epistle to the Corinthians comes to mind in this thread. So, I mean, yeah. It's hard not to take this stuff seriously, if you take it seriously. " For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." So who is to say your beliefs are not the ones that are heresies? The Catholic church believed the Protestant beliefs were heretical. The protestants were/are essentially preaching another gospel as Paul warned. And? I was explaining why people take this seriously. Yet we have people in this very thread who downplay the importance of Christian unity, reject the Eucharist, and advocate schism, while accusing others of being non-Biblical. My point with that was to show why this is deemed important. I supposes you are free to decide for yourself which, if any, modern Church has properly maintained these teachings. But, you should also understand why people take it seriously. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:28:06 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1 Corinthians 1:2 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: All believers are 'saints' Exactly |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:29:11 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1 Corinthians 1:2 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: All believers are 'saints' Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The idea that this is contradictory, is indeed "malarkey." Why is Mary significant? Why are the Saints? They all point to Christ. To suggest otherwise is to deliberately try not to understand. 1 Corinthians 1:2 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: All believers are 'saints' I fail to understand your point. Another semantics game, maybe? I haven't seen anyone accuse a Catholic of Orthodox believer of "worshipping" a living fellow Christian if they turn to them for advice or intercession. No, the controversy seems limited to those who have passed. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:29:17 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would you talk with a parent? A teacher? A trusted confidant? Why, especially why, not seek out a known glorified Christian? People find inspiration in certain people and stories. Mary is particularly admirable. The real question here is, why create a theology that effectively demonizes a practice and understanding that dates back to the earliest Church, and why use semantic trickery to do so? No offense, but Mary is dead. Has been fir thousands of years. She may have been good and all. What can she do for me? Nothing. It would be like praying to George Washington |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:30:45 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would you talk with a parent? A teacher? A trusted confidant? Why, especially why, not seek out a known glorified Christian? People find inspiration in certain people and stories. Mary is particularly admirable. The real question here is, why create a theology that effectively demonizes a practice and understanding that dates back to the earliest Church, and why use semantic trickery to do so? No offense, but Mary is dead. Has been fir thousands of years. She may have been good and all. What can she do for me? Nothing. It would be like praying to George Washington |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:35:09 PM EST
[#28]
Can someone clarify this for me...
I have often heard that the Catholic church says that Mary is still a virgin.. How can that be when she had at least 6 other children? Two passages of Scripture show us that Jesus had siblings Matthew 13:55–56 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? (4 brothers and at least 2 sisters) Mark 6:3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:35:24 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No offense, but Mary is dead. Has been fir thousands of years. She may have been good and all. What can she do for me? Nothing. It would be like praying to George Washington Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Why would you talk with a parent? A teacher? A trusted confidant? Why, especially why, not seek out a known glorified Christian? People find inspiration in certain people and stories. Mary is particularly admirable. The real question here is, why create a theology that effectively demonizes a practice and understanding that dates back to the earliest Church, and why use semantic trickery to do so? No offense, but Mary is dead. Has been fir thousands of years. She may have been good and all. What can she do for me? Nothing. It would be like praying to George Washington Do you not take Christ at his word when he said, “those who believe in me shall not perish but have eternal life?” |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:37:23 PM EST
[#30]
The answer here is NOT any "church" (which the word is not found in Scripture) but rather the focus should be on who is Jesus to you both? Scriptural speaking any church or gathering where there is chaos and confusion, such as in these "holy roller" style churches is more concerned about external showmanship more so than a relationship with Christ Jesus.
Scripture tells us that God is not a God of confusion therefore within a church setting there must be order. So YOU as the husband must study this and show this to your wife as to be in error for as instructed in Scripture the husband is to wash his wife with God's Word. Now, as for the Roman Catholic Church, it is steeped in religious' pomp and rituals. The almost worship atmosphere of icons and saints is problematic and also not Scriptural. So what's the solution? Be as the Bereans where Paul said they did proper in that they tested what Paul told them with Scripture. Perhaps, neither of you go to church for several weeks and just set time aside and open the Scriptures and read them together, no commentaries, don't call friends for questions like, "Hey what's this passage mean?" Just read, pray for understanding as you read. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:37:45 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And? I was explaining why people take this seriously. Yet we have people in this very thread who downplay the importance of Christian unity, reject the Eucharist, and advocate schism, while accusing others of being non-Biblical. My point with that was to show why this is deemed important. I supposes you are free to decide for yourself which, if any, modern Church has properly maintained these teachings. But, you should also understand why people take it seriously. Take what seriously? Arguing that my Jesus is better than your Jesus? I see nothing of promoting unity in this thread. Simply divisions. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:40:58 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryDoes it really make any sense to reference the franch and latin etymology of the word pray. For commandments given from God to Moses in the common character (ancient hebrew) our best reference would be exodus. Kjv 20 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Niv 20 And God spoke all these words: 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. I don't even see the word pray here. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:42:45 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you not take Christ at his word when he said, “those who believe in me shall not perish but have eternal life?” 1 Timothy 2:5 pretty much says it all “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:43:24 PM EST
[#34]
Quoted: I am of the belief that as long as you love and believe in Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter what the denomination is, whether it be Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran, Apostolic, etc I don't think any of them are wrong and they follow the same bible. It just depends on what style you like your church to be. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:45:41 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then you're not Catholic, bro. Catholicism teaches you have to earn your way into heaven with good deeds. Just believing ain't enough. Sounds like you're more of a protestant - y'all just need to find the flavor and style that suits you both. Does that mean that they believe Christ shed blood on the cross was not enough to pay the price for them? |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:45:41 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does it really make any sense to reference the franch and latin etymology of the word pray. For commandments given from God to Moses in the common character (ancient hebrew) our best reference would be exodus. Kjv 20 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Niv 20 And God spoke all these words: 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. I don't even see the word pray here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Does it really make any sense to reference the franch and latin etymology of the word pray. For commandments given from God to Moses in the common character (ancient hebrew) our best reference would be exodus. Kjv 20 And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Niv 20 And God spoke all these words: 2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. I don't even see the word pray here. Because people consistently leverage the conflation of prayer with worship in order to stigmatize those who use the word "prayer" for intercessionary contact with saints in heaven. It's a rather childish and disingenuous semantics game that I've seen play out many, many times. There has always been a distinction theologically between prayers of worship and prayers of intercession. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:46:55 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you not take Christ at his word when he said, “those who believe in me shall not perish but have eternal life?” I do, but what is the point praying to some dead person? |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:47:10 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can someone clarify this for me... I have often heard that the Catholic church says that Mary is still a virgin.. How can that be when she had at least 6 other children? Two passages of Scripture show us that Jesus had siblings Matthew 13:55–56 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? (4 brothers and at least 2 sisters) Mark 6:3 Is this not the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us?” So they were offended at Him. Why did Jesus entrust his mother to John's care? |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:48:59 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Apostolic. I don't think that word means what you think it means. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:49:10 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do, but what is the point praying to aone dead person? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Do you not take Christ at his word when he said, “those who believe in me shall not perish but have eternal life?” I do, but what is the point praying to aone dead person? Because, according to Christ, those who believe with in him are not dead and thus asking a saint to pray for you is no different than asking a friend or fellow member of your church to pray for you. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:50:57 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's another thing that tends not to jive for me spiritually. I feel much more comfortable praying to give thanks rather than asking for anything. Who are we to presume and plead for intercession on our behalf when we have already been given so much? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Be careful not to fall into their semantics games. "Pray" has long had many meanings. Certain people try to insist it always means worship, but it has long just been a form of request. I've seen too many people get tripped up in this game. And, that's what it amounts to, a game played by disingenuous tricksters who use the ever-changing idiosyncrasies of language to distract from theology. That's another thing that tends not to jive for me spiritually. I feel much more comfortable praying to give thanks rather than asking for anything. Who are we to presume and plead for intercession on our behalf when we have already been given so much? Scripturally, you may pray for anything that you want. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it glorifies the Father through the Son. Edit: And by your actions once you receive it. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:52:04 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because, according to Christ, those who believe with in him are not dead and thus asking a saint to pray for you is no different than asking a friend or fellow member of your church to pray for you. Except that they're dead and and don't have the ability to pray? My grandpa was a good dude, and believed in Christ, does he have the same pull as Mary? |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:53:00 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because people consistently leverage the conflation of prayer with worship in order to stigmatize those who use the word "prayer" for intercessionary contact with saints in heaven. It's a rather childish and disingenuous semantics game that I've seen play out many, many times. There has always been a distinction theologically between prayers of worship and prayers of intercession. Ok well then at least we have the context of the commandments and an understanding of what most Catholics mean when they pray to Mary. If we are simply asking for her intercession that is one thing but then what of people who actually bow and pray to a statue of her regardless of the actual prayer they are bowing before an image... |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:53:39 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except that they're dead and and don't have the ability to pray? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Because, according to Christ, those who believe with in him are not dead and thus asking a saint to pray for you is no different than asking a friend or fellow member of your church to pray for you. Except that they're dead and and don't have the ability to pray? That’s not what Christ said. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 4:55:51 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except that they're dead and and don't have the ability to pray? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Because, according to Christ, those who believe with in him are not dead and thus asking a saint to pray for you is no different than asking a friend or fellow member of your church to pray for you. Except that they're dead and and don't have the ability to pray? The Saints who are in the kingdom of God, currently, if you want to call it that, have virtually all the ability to do anything that Christ can do. If Jesus Christ can pray to the Father, even if ceremonially, so can they. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 5:00:08 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Saints who are in the kingdom of God, currently, if you want to call it that, have virtually all the ability to do anything that Christ can do. If Jesus Christ can pray to the Father, even if ceremonially, so can they. So they've got the same pull as Jesus? Why do we need him again? |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 5:00:09 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Catholic Church is the only church ever authorized by Christ and is meant to be the only church. How did Jesus authorize a church that didn’t start until after his death? |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 5:01:35 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why did Jesus entrust his mother to John's care? As the oldest son in His family, Jesus had a cultural obligation to care for His mother. Seeing how Jesus's brothers were not believers and were not present at His crucifixion. Jesus passed the obligation to care for his mother one of His closest friends (John) who certainly would have obeyed this command and accepted the obligation to care for her. So Jesus entrusted his mother Mary to John, who was indeed a believer and was present at His crucifixion, and he would have accepted the obligation to care for her. |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 5:02:04 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Scripturally, you may pray for anything that you want. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it glorifies the Father through the Son. Edit: And by your actions once you receive it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Be careful not to fall into their semantics games. "Pray" has long had many meanings. Certain people try to insist it always means worship, but it has long just been a form of request. I've seen too many people get tripped up in this game. And, that's what it amounts to, a game played by disingenuous tricksters who use the ever-changing idiosyncrasies of language to distract from theology. That's another thing that tends not to jive for me spiritually. I feel much more comfortable praying to give thanks rather than asking for anything. Who are we to presume and plead for intercession on our behalf when we have already been given so much? Scripturally, you may pray for anything that you want. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it glorifies the Father through the Son. Edit: And by your actions once you receive it. Not saying there is anything sinful when praying to ask for something. It's more of a personal choice I guess. Like instead of praying for a family member to be healed I would rather give thanks for the strength we are given to overcome and the knowledge, wisdom and support God has given to the doctors and family of the infirm... |
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Posted: 9/25/2023 5:04:13 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Saints who are in the kingdom of God, currently, if you want to call it that, have virtually all the ability to do anything that Christ can do. If Jesus Christ can pray to the Father, even if ceremonially, so can they. Can you please provide in scripture where that is stated? Thank you |
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