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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:06:10 AM EDT
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"The inadequate restraint of five large mine-resistant military vehicles being carried as cargo in a National Airlines B747 was the cause of a fiery crash shortly after takeoff from Bagram Airbase in Afghanistan in April 2013, the NTSB said in its probable-cause meeting on Tuesday. All seven crew members died in the crash. At least one of the vehicles moved rearward as the aircraft climbed from the runway, crippling key hydraulic systems and damaging the horizontal stabilizer, rendering the aircraft uncontrollable, the NTSB said. The safety board also said the FAA's inadequate oversight of National Airlines' cargo operation was a contributing factor in the accident." |
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I can't imagine the horrifying feeling of those on board that rode it in that day.
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Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right.
Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch. |
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It makes me appreciate the good job done by the guys loading the mil birds I have flown in.
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Haven't watched that video in a while... Damn that must have been horrible to be in that plane.
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Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right. Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch. View Quote there's a saying in the RC airplane hobby about where to set your cg for a maiden flight, being that you're not sure how the thing flies yet: "a nose heavy plane will fly poorly, and tail heavy plane will fly once" must have been an excruciating couple of seconds before impact. luckily they wouldn't have been alive long enough to feel the fire. |
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Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right. Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch. View Quote I don't know if I commented on it then but the pitch up does support that notion. What is new information is the damage to the control systems. I have not read the full report and question whether recovery was possible even without the control system damage. Once you get a huge center of gravity shift beyond the ability of the elevator to control it, you are along for the ride an inevitable impact with Earth. |
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Once you get a huge center of gravity shift beyond the ability of the elevator to control it, you are along for the ride an inevitable impact with Earth. View Quote yep, had it happened in flight, with enough airspeed and altitude (and no damage to the control systems) they might have been able to control it enough to get the situation under control. |
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That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet.
BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. |
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment.
IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. |
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I just downloaded and scanned through the synopsis of the NTSB report and a center of gravity problem appears to not be the cause of the crash, rather it was the damage to the control system that rendered pitch control impossible.
"The airplane’s loss of pitch control was the result of the improper restraint of the rear mine-resistant ambush-protected all-terrain vehicle, which allowed it to move aft through the aft pressure bulkhead and damage hydraulic systems Nos. 1 and 2 and horizontal stabilizer drive mechanism components to the extent that it was not possible for the flight crew to regain pitch control of the airplane." |
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. View Quote Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. |
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Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? |
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Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. |
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Contractors? Was it "local" contractors or guys from the US? View Quote US contractors. We're not going to let some 3rd country asswipe near our jets, not even to clean the shitters. These dudes worked for National Air. We heard rumors right after it happened that DHL loaded the jet, but I don't think that was ever confirmed. |
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Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? I suspect that he died in the crash. "All seven crewmembers—the captain, first officer, loadmaster, augmented captain and first officer, and two mechanics—died, and the airplane was destroyed from impact forces and postcrash fire." |
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Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Yea. the jet he was on nosedi ved into the earth at a couple hundred miles per hour |
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Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. So what were the straps attached to? |
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Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. DOD/TRANSCOM. It was a contracted flight. We had cargo, they had the plane. The people who staged the cargo refer to the air carriers capabilities to determine if it's flyable. Nat'l Air said they could do it. Turned out they were wrong. |
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Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Yes, no chains allowed on Boeings is correct. The vehicles are chained to the pallets, then the pallets are restrained with a shit ton of straps. I think back and seem to remember talk of there being an inadequate number of straps found in the wreck. Strap buckles really. We have some guys from National working where I work now, and that was an issue that got mentioned a lot. I posted a picture of how they get secured on the old thread here. I dont think I have it on this computer anymore. Caver, yes, I think a zipper effect would be accurate, then an unrestrained pallet and vehicle went thru the aft bulkhead and into the rudder and stab hydraulic packs. |
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DOD/TRANSCOM. It was a contracted flight. We had cargo, they had the plane. The people who staged the cargo refer to the air carriers capabilities to determine if it's flyable. Nat'l Air said they could do it. Turned out they were wrong. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. DOD/TRANSCOM. It was a contracted flight. We had cargo, they had the plane. The people who staged the cargo refer to the air carriers capabilities to determine if it's flyable. Nat'l Air said they could do it. Turned out they were wrong. SMDH. |
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US contractors. We're not going to let some 3rd country asswipe near our jets, not even to clean the shitters. These dudes worked for National Air. We heard rumors right after it happened that DHL loaded the jet, but I don't think that was ever confirmed. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Contractors? Was it "local" contractors or guys from the US? US contractors. We're not going to let some 3rd country asswipe near our jets, not even to clean the shitters. These dudes worked for National Air. We heard rumors right after it happened that DHL loaded the jet, but I don't think that was ever confirmed. The sad thing is how many U.S. commercial carriers have moved offshore to service their aircraft. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell.
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Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. Well, we took all those mraps into the area. Contractor flights I mean, not just my company, but a combo of all the 747 contractors. There is no lack of tie downs on a 747. We just dont use chains as they have no give and will damage the the D rings. The key in this crash was not enough proper straps were available. |
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This is probably what it looked like on the inside http://s7.postimg.org/tjj48000b/100113_F_0571_C_004.jpg The rings on the side are the ONLY source of tie down points on the jet that i'm aware of. They're not rated for much. http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o618/Mti1Wg/DSC_0091_zps56172ba8.jpeg View Quote That second pic was mine from the old thread. |
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Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell. Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. VACaver, it's not common. When you getting back to loadsmashing? We could use the help. |
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SMDH. View Quote Also, 747s can carry a fuckton more than even a C5. C5 have 36 pallet positions, 747s have 42. Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. |
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I'm learning a lot in this thread. I'll probably never need the information, but I still appreciate the info.
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I would hate to be the guy who loaded those vehicles, that would haunt me for life.
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In a former life I was the owner of a towing company. People don't understand why I get upset when
I see a flatbed with the winch and one chain the only thing holding a vehicle in place. Usually nothing happens, until it does. Sad. Would have thought aircraft ops would leave no room for this. |
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Holy shit, 5 mraps sliding back will fuck up anyones day... probably even if there was no hydraulic damage.
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Quoted: Here's a C17 cargo floor. Those are the D rings that are normally needed for heavy vehicles. They're rated at 25,000 lbs each. http://s27.postimg.org/i7ky0py6b/ers.jpg View Quote That's a really cool picture. |
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Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Pretty sure he was on board. |
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VACaver, it's not common. When you getting back to loadsmashing? We could use the help. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell. Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. VACaver, it's not common. When you getting back to loadsmashing? We could use the help. You guys are hiring? Shoot me an IM with contact info. Thanks. |
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That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet. BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. View Quote The blackout didn't go into effect for almost 3 hours IIRC. That always struck me as odd. It was a shitty day. |
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Also, 747s can carry a fuckton more than even a C5. C5 have 36 pallet positions, 747s have 42. Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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SMDH. Also, 747s can carry a fuckton more than even a C5. C5 have 36 pallet positions, 747s have 42. Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. I understand that, but MRAPs are NOT the same as a load of ammunition or MREs; you can tie down a load of MREs with 5k rated straps and off you go; MRAPs (depending on what vehicle it is) is a much different beast to load. Granted, my knowledge of cargo operations is limited to VERY LIMITED (10 level) railhead ops for a lowly former 92Y like myself. |
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I have always thought about cargo issues on commercial flights....ever seen what is loaded on some of the international wide bodies? I just hope everything is tied down...
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I remember there was a ton of talk about load shifting. Those cargo strap pictures look incredibly scary.
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The load shift findings are to be expected, but I was not expecting the elevator damage and subsequent pitch control issues.
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Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right. Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch. View Quote This. I've been on small commuter aircraft where they tell people to move seats to redistribute the weight to keep from being ass or nose heavy... or for assholes not lining up in the back of the plane by the bathroom. |
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