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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:46:28 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know if you are aware of this, but our legal system isn't based on things your grandpappy taught you, Old Man River. Page 2 and we're already doing re-runs.  Yeah, it is based on the meaning of the words in the specific law. What are those words? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:56:46 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Criminal charges depend on what "due caution and circumspection" means with guns, specifically. What is the "due caution and circumspection" rule on pointing guns at people? What are the exceptions to that rule? I was taught that I own the results any time the gun was in my hands. I don't get to blame killing someone on anyone else if I am in full control of the weapon. What were you taught? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You're right, which is why he's getting his ass handed to him in the civil trial. Proving criminal charges is a whole other animal. Criminal charges depend on what "due caution and circumspection" means with guns, specifically. What is the "due caution and circumspection" rule on pointing guns at people? What are the exceptions to that rule? I was taught that I own the results any time the gun was in my hands. I don't get to blame killing someone on anyone else if I am in full control of the weapon. What were you taught? Rules are not laws. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:59:03 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, it is based on the meaning of the words in the specific law. What are those words? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't know if you are aware of this, but our legal system isn't based on things your grandpappy taught you, Old Man River. Page 2 and we're already doing re-runs. Yeah, it is based on the meaning of the words in the specific law. What are those words? They say nothing specifically about guns, as you seem to think. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:59:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rules are not laws. Gun safety rules define "due caution and circumspection" with guns. That's where they would look for that meaning. The dead body says that the person holding the gun did not exercise due caution and circumspection. No other way it could happen. Would you kill the woman and claim that it was someone else's fault because someone told you it was OK to point the gun at someone? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 1:00:46 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They say nothing specifically about guns, as you seem to think. What is the critical phrase? How is that phrase defined with guns? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 1:05:52 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gun safety rules define "due caution and circumspection" with guns. That's where they would look for that meaning. The dead body says that the person holding the gun did not exercise due caution and circumspection. No other way it could happen. Would you kill the woman and claim that it was someone else's fault because someone told you it was OK to point the gun at someone? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Rules are not laws. Gun safety rules define "due caution and circumspection" with guns. That's where they would look for that meaning. The dead body says that the person holding the gun did not exercise due caution and circumspection. No other way it could happen. Would you kill the woman and claim that it was someone else's fault because someone told you it was OK to point the gun at someone? Just because they're the rules that you follow doesn't make them the law. In some other people's world, due caution and circumspection means hiring expert professionals in gun management and safety to make sure their movie props are safe. Where does it say in your law that that isn't good enough? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 1:08:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just because they're the rules that you follow doesn't make them the law. In some other people's world, due caution and circumspection means hiring expert professionals in gun management and safety to make sure their movie props are safe. Where does it say in your law that that isn't good enough? It says it isn't good enough any time there is a dead body. There is no good excuse for negligently killing someone with a gun in your hands. It also says it in the words of the movie armorer who explains that guns are never pointed at people on movie sets. That is not due caution and circumspection any place that I have ever heard. Which gun instructor taught you different? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 1:11:07 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just because they're the rules that you follow doesn't make them the law. In some other people's world, due caution and circumspection means hiring expert professionals in gun management and safety to make sure their movie props are safe. Where does it say in your law that that isn't good enough? So, you would point the gun, pull the trigger and then say it was everyone else's fault. Is that right? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 5:51:47 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My GOD, this is shocking! lol, not really. Money buys "justice", and always has. Yep money was paid and the suggestion that movies/revenue would be lost. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 5:55:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's up to Matthew Hutchins now to get his pound of flesh. He already did. They settled. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:17:15 AM EDT
[#11]
Expected outcome was expected. You get as much justice as you can afford.
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:23:59 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Baldwin is ignorant of guns. It was the armorers responsibility to assure the gun was safe. Baldwin is an idiot, but he is not responsible for an unfortunate death while "acting". He should have never been charged. I'm actually sorry for him to go through this, as much as I don't care for him. Mostly agree with you although I'm not sorry for him. The wailing on this website is predominantly being done by a bunch of gun enthusiasts suffering from weaponized autism. Look at all the people bringing up the 'four rules' as if some random Hollywood actor or lay-person knows what that is - LOL. Get off your fucking sofa and go exist in the real world please. The armorer IS responsible. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:26:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know if you are aware of this, but guns have rules that apply only to guns and nothing else. The person holding the gun can prevent any problems if they follow the safety rules, no matter what anyone else did. AB knew the rules. His father was a gun instructor. The movie armorer says that the movie set rules say that real guns are never to be pointed at anyone. Same rule they teach in every gun class. He also says the actor, the AD, and the armorer are supposed to check it together and demonstrate anything in the gun. SAG rules say the actor is supposed to object to any situation that they know is unsafe. If someone handed you a gun and told you to point it at someone and pull the trigger, would you do it? How about if they told you that someone else checked it and we are just pretending? Of course he's aware of it - he's on this website. ...but the real question is are you aware that most people - including actors - are not. Sorry but having a father, mother, sister, brother that has knowledge on something doesn't automatically imbue one with knowledge. That's not how human learning works. I have the clear belief that Baldwin didn't intend to kill or injure anyone. He was an ignorant asshat and the purple-haired donkey armorer that loaded live rounds in the weapon needs to go to jail. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:33:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It says it isn't good enough any time there is a dead body. There is no good excuse for negligently killing someone with a gun in your hands. It also says it in the words of the movie armorer who explains that guns are never pointed at people on movie sets. That is not due caution and circumspection any place that I have ever heard. Which gun instructor taught you different? Which movies are you watching?  |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:46:31 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gun safety rules define "due caution and circumspection" with guns. That's where they would look for that meaning. The dead body says that the person holding the gun did not exercise due caution and circumspection. No other way it could happen. Would you kill the woman and claim that it was someone else's fault because someone told you it was OK to point the gun at someone? You have an proof of your contention that "gun safety rules 'define due caution and circumspection' with guns" in case law in NM or are you just projecting what you feel it should be and just endlessly repeating the contention as if it is? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:51:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've thought all along that she should unless there's some belief Baldwin put a live round in the chamber. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Armorer chick is the only one going down for this. Baldwin got let loose because he has money and connections. I've thought all along that she should unless there's some belief Baldwin put a live round in the chamber. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:54:45 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm shocked, shocked I say! |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:57:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do we really want to put people in prison for mistakes? Actors point guns at people and pull the trigger routinely. Circumspection with regard to doing so is off the table. It's part of their job. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: He had no intent, and no knowledge that the gun was loaded. He was "acting". He is an idiot, but not guilty of a crime. 2019 New Mexico Statutes Chapter 30 - Criminal Offenses Article 2 - Homicide Section 30-2-3 - Manslaughter. Universal Citation: NM Stat 30-2-3 (2019) Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. A. Voluntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion. Whoever commits voluntary manslaughter is guilty of a third degree felony resulting in the death of a human being. B. Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection. Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony. I am sure you know the basic gun safety rules. AB knew them, too. His father was a gun instructor. They aren't hard to remember or follow. How is "without due caution and circumspection" defined with guns? How many separate violations of the safety rules are required by the person holding the gun before anyone gets hurt? See the video above by movie armorer Larry Zanoff. Do we really want to put people in prison for mistakes? Actors point guns at people and pull the trigger routinely. Circumspection with regard to doing so is off the table. It's part of their job. FFS, how many times have we been over this? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 6:58:24 AM EDT
[#19]
If you didn't see this coming, you haven't paid attention.
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:11:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Without due caution or circumspection" is defined with guns the same way as anything else. A professional armorer told AB, (who is not a professional), that the gun was safe. If you just had your tires rotated, and one comes off, causing a wreck that killed someone, is it your fault? You relied on a professional to tell you it was safe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: He did a good job of explaining how there are people whose only job is to prevent firearm accidents from happening. AB is an idiot and could have prevented what happened, but it's because there are idiots like him that professionals are given the responsibility of making sure he doesn't shoot someone. That is the due diligence taken on behalf of the actors. They failed. AB broke rules, but rules are not laws. He also says that real guns are never to be pointed at anyone -- same rule AB undoubtedly learned from his father, the gun instructor. The NM law which I posted says that it is manslaughter if it was "without due caution or circumspection." How is that defined with guns? If someone handed you a gun and told you to point it at someone and pull the trigger. Would you do it? How about if they told you that we are just pretending now? "Without due caution or circumspection" is defined with guns the same way as anything else. A professional armorer told AB, (who is not a professional), that the gun was safe. If you just had your tires rotated, and one comes off, causing a wreck that killed someone, is it your fault? You relied on a professional to tell you it was safe. And don't give me any of that irresponsible idiot nonsense. Unless his IQis low double digits or he's got dementia, his LOOOOONG career in movies and television, much of it handling firearms, should have ingrained safe gun handling behavior into him. He doesn't like guns, but he uses them as tools all the fucking time. No, it wasn't that he was too stupid to understand the danger -- he was too arrogant to be bothered with following the rules. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:16:43 AM EDT
[#21]
Well there, my first not surprised of the day.
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:19:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I'm a movie actor, "due caution" on my part is having a professional to make sure guns are safe. That's how they do it in that industry. Stupid people handle guns, so they hire professional safety people. THAT is their due caution. What you describe is worthy of suing AB in civil court if you think you can prove that he knew all about gun safety, but not criminal charges.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:22:13 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The person that killed her was the person that brought live ammo on to a movie set, loaded it into a prop gun, and handed it to an actor, all the while being the person professionally responsible for making sure that very thing didn't happen. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I'm a movie actor, "due caution" on my part is having a professional to make sure guns are safe. That's how they do it in that industry. Stupid people handle guns, so they hire professional safety people. THAT is their due caution. What you describe is worthy of suing AB in civil court if you think you can prove that he knew all about gun safety, but not criminal charges. Then you would have killed her while the SAG rules say that you should have exercised what you were taught about guns. That's a poor excuse for killing someone. What do the movie rules say about pointing guns at people - regardless of what anyone told you? What do the standard gun safety rules say about it? How about if someone told you it was safe? AB knew the rules, including that one. His father was a gun instructor. Nobody gets killed until the person holding the gun ignores that rule plus some others. The person that killed her was the person that brought live ammo on to a movie set, loaded it into a prop gun, and handed it to an actor, all the while being the person professionally responsible for making sure that very thing didn't happen. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:24:32 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rules are not laws. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:25:02 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This was a weak case that had nothing to do with "the four rules." He didn't buy his way out of it, they had a shit case. Charging him then dropping the charges seem the acts of idiots |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:26:56 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gun safety rules define "due caution and circumspection" with guns. That's where they would look for that meaning. The dead body says that the person holding the gun did not exercise due caution and circumspection. No other way it could happen. Would you kill the woman and claim that it was someone else's fault because someone told you it was OK to point the gun at someone? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Rules are not laws. Gun safety rules define "due caution and circumspection" with guns. That's where they would look for that meaning. The dead body says that the person holding the gun did not exercise due caution and circumspection. No other way it could happen. Would you kill the woman and claim that it was someone else's fault because someone told you it was OK to point the gun at someone? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:30:32 AM EDT
[#27]
FAB.
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:37:43 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I still say the one thing I want to grill him over is did he really not know is wife was faking being from Spain v Rhode Island (I think he didn't know) and how did he not realize this. Quote HistoryQuoted: I still say the one thing I want to grill him over is did he really not know is wife was faking being from Spain v Rhode Island (I think he didn't know) and how did he not realize this. Quoted: I still say the one thing I want to grill him over is did he really not know is wife was faking being from Spain v Rhode Island (I think he didn't know) and how did he not realize this. That's the real crime in all of this. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 7:41:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mostly agree with you although I'm not sorry for him. The wailing on this website is predominantly being done by a bunch of gun enthusiasts suffering from weaponized autism. Look at all the people bringing up the 'four rules' as if some random Hollywood actor or lay-person knows what that is - LOL. Get off your fucking sofa and go exist in the real world please. The armorer IS responsible. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Baldwin is ignorant of guns. It was the armorers responsibility to assure the gun was safe. Baldwin is an idiot, but he is not responsible for an unfortunate death while "acting". He should have never been charged. I'm actually sorry for him to go through this, as much as I don't care for him. Mostly agree with you although I'm not sorry for him. The wailing on this website is predominantly being done by a bunch of gun enthusiasts suffering from weaponized autism. Look at all the people bringing up the 'four rules' as if some random Hollywood actor or lay-person knows what that is - LOL. Get off your fucking sofa and go exist in the real world please. The armorer IS responsible. You, while claiming to be in the know, don't know what you're talking about. You're going just as much on feels as those you are disparaging. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 8:48:08 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An assistant director handed him the gun, not the armorer. According to SAG rules, the armorer, that AD, AND FAB should ALL have checked the gun. FAB failed to follow workplace safety rules set forth in his industry, and was therefore acting negligently. Keep in mind, FAB was not only the actor responsible for verifying a prop a chimp could probably been trained to perform (a simple sorting task), but he was also the producer, responsible for the production as a whole. And don't give me any of that irresponsible idiot nonsense. Unless his IQis low double digits or he's got dementia, his LOOOOONG career in movies and television, much of it handling firearms, should have ingrained safe gun handling behavior into him. He doesn't like guns, but he uses them as tools all the fucking time. No, it wasn't that he was too stupid to understand the danger -- he was too arrogant to be bothered with following the rules. Here's a link to the SAG safety bulletins. https://www.sagaftra.org/files/safety_bulletins_amptp_part_1_9_3_0.pdf Could you quote the part that says "the armorer, that AD, AND FAB should ALL have checked the gun"? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 8:50:05 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who gives a shit about the four rules in this context. The rules people are invoking are those of the SAG and the movie industry. FAB broke the rules, not of basic gun safety, but of his industry. He broke fundamental rules that were put in place after another actor died because of lesser practices. There was a reason people were walking off his set. There was a reason he had to hire a third string armorer. He was a careless, arrogant asshole who didn't follow industry practices. You, while claiming to be in the know, don't know what you're talking about. You're going just as much on feels as those you are disparaging. Wrong - I do know. You're the one here with zero legal ability spouting off nonsense on how he murdered someone. You might want to research / figure out what "murder" actually means. "He failed to do his job and murdered somebody." - You...but hey - keep lecturing the rest of us about definitions or topics that even the most basic course on criminal justice would cover - let alone any sort of legal education. Further, the rules people invoked and that I responded to absolutely were the four firearm safety rules. Perhaps you could at least attempt to read the thread before spouting off even more nonsense? The fact of the matter is - you have very clearly demonstrated that you don't actually know the basics of the law and therefore - you don't know how to apply it. The prosecutors who do have some sort of clue disagree with you and guess what? - so do I. It's okay to be ignorant sometimes. Baldwin clearly was and that's why he hired an armorer. Unfortunately, he apparently chose a purple-haired woke warrior instead of someone competent. I'm sure he regrets that. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 8:53:27 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the real crime in all of this. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I still say the one thing I want to grill him over is did he really not know is wife was faking being from Spain v Rhode Island (I think he didn't know) and how did he not realize this. Quoted: I still say the one thing I want to grill him over is did he really not know is wife was faking being from Spain v Rhode Island (I think he didn't know) and how did he not realize this. That's the real crime in all of this. She's 26 years younger and looked good when they got together. I doubt his penis cared where she was from then or now. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 9:05:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This was a weak case that had nothing to do with "the four rules." He didn't buy his way out of it, they had a shit case. Charging him then dropping the charges seem the acts of idiots Pearl clutchers want to lock the guy up because he's a commie. I get that and it's fair, but this "case" was never going to fly. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 11:45:35 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's a link to the SAG safety bulletins. https://www.sagaftra.org/files/safety_bulletins_amptp_part_1_9_3_0.pdf Could you quote the part that says "the armorer, that AD, AND FAB should ALL have checked the gun"? In the SAG bulletin, the relevant part is: • AS AN ACTOR, YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE fOR YOUR OWN SAfETY AND THE SAfETY Of YOUR fELLOW CAST MEMBERS. Production management and crew are responsible for creating and maintaining safe conditions, but it is your right and responsibility to double check the set up to ensure your own Safety. • YOU HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO ANY STUNT OR SCENE YOU THINK MIGHT BE DANGEROUS SAG contracts guarantee your right to refuse to perform any Stunt or hazardous activity you even think might put you in any danger. If you have doubts about the Safety of any set-up, say no and stick to it. The part about all those people checking it -- and not pointing it at people is in this video, explained by a movie armorer.  Here’s how real guns are kept safe on film sets What's the standard rule on pointing guns at people? Do you know it? It applies everywhere. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 11:46:55 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who gives a shit about the four rules in this context. The rules people are invoking are those of the SAG and the movie industry. FAB broke the rules, not of basic gun safety, but of his industry. He broke fundamental rules that were put in place after another actor died because of lesser practices. There was a reason people were walking off his set. There was a reason he had to hire a third string armorer. He was a careless, arrogant asshole who didn't follow industry practices. You, while claiming to be in the know, don't know what you're talking about. You're going just as much on feels as those you are disparaging. The four rules also apply in the movie industry, so those are the same everywhere. See the video by the movie armorer, above. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 11:50:05 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have an proof of your contention that "gun safety rules 'define due caution and circumspection' with guns" in case law in NM or are you just projecting what you feel it should be and just endlessly repeating the contention as if it is? See the video by the armorer above. The same rules apply on movie sets that apply at your local range, with some specific procedures to ensure them. So, you are saying that, if it was you, you would have killed the woman and blamed everyone else because you thought it was OK to point guns at people. Is that correct? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 11:50:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which movies are you watching? The ones described by the movie armorer in the video linked above. He says real guns are never to be pointed at anyone, same as everywhere else. Did you watch it? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 11:53:50 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course he's aware of it - he's on this website. ...but the real question is are you aware that most people - including actors - are not. Sorry but having a father, mother, sister, brother that has knowledge on something doesn't automatically imbue one with knowledge. That's not how human learning works. I have the clear belief that Baldwin didn't intend to kill or injure anyone. He was an ignorant asshat and the purple-haired donkey armorer that loaded live rounds in the weapon needs to go to jail. What are the basic rules? What are the allowable exceptions? Is pretending an exception? I have never met any gun instructor who failed to inform his own children of the rules. The rules are easy to remember and follow. If he didn't remember them, they held on-set classes. This ain't rocket surgery. If anyone doesn't know the rules then they shouldn't touch the gun. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 11:54:57 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mostly agree with you although I'm not sorry for him. The wailing on this website is predominantly being done by a bunch of gun enthusiasts suffering from weaponized autism. Look at all the people bringing up the 'four rules' as if some random Hollywood actor or lay-person knows what that is - LOL. Get off your fucking sofa and go exist in the real world please. The armorer IS responsible. AB's father was a gun instructor, for kids of his age at the time. The rules aren't hard to remember. Don't point guns at people. If he doesn't know that then he is too stupid to touch the gun, another violation. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 11:58:07 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Baldwin is ignorant of guns. It was the armorers responsibility to assure the gun was safe. Baldwin is an idiot, but he is not responsible for an unfortunate death while "acting". He should have never been charged. I'm actually sorry for him to go through this, as much as I don't care for him. His father was a gun instructor, for kids of his age at the time. "Don't point it at people" is easy to remember. The movie armorer says the "don't point it at people" rule applies on movie sets, same as everywhere else. No difference in the rules, just more procedures to make sure the standard rules are followed. Failure to follow the movie procedures is another violation on all three people involved. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:01:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Pearl clutchers want to lock the guy up because he's a commie. I get that and it's fair, but this "case" was never going to fly. I don't care about AB one way or the other. I don't think I have ever seen five minutes of anything he did. My decision is based on standard gun safety rules that I learned before I was in junior high. Those rules apply everywhere, even on movie sets. I was taught that, if you are holding the gun, you own the results. What were you taught? Would you do the same as AB -- kill the woman and then try to blame everyone else? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:04:04 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This was a weak case that had nothing to do with "the four rules." He didn't buy his way out of it, they had a shit case. Charging him then dropping the charges seem the acts of idiots This But I assume he can still be civilly sued for money correct? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:06:32 PM EDT
[#43]
No surprise.
That said, he lives with the knowledge he pulled a trigger and a young woman is dead. That will gnaw at him more that he will ever admit. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:09:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the SAG bulletin, the relevant part is: • AS AN ACTOR, YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE fOR YOUR OWN SAfETY AND THE SAfETY Of YOUR fELLOW CAST MEMBERS. Production management and crew are responsible for creating and maintaining safe conditions, but it is your right and responsibility to double check the set up to ensure your own Safety. • YOU HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO ANY STUNT OR SCENE YOU THINK MIGHT BE DANGEROUS SAG contracts guarantee your right to refuse to perform any Stunt or hazardous activity you even think might put you in any danger. If you have doubts about the Safety of any set-up, say no and stick to it. The part about all those people checking it -- and not pointing it at people is in this video, explained by a movie armorer.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTOYiNd1AxsQuote HistoryQuoted: In the SAG bulletin, the relevant part is: • AS AN ACTOR, YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE fOR YOUR OWN SAfETY AND THE SAfETY Of YOUR fELLOW CAST MEMBERS. Production management and crew are responsible for creating and maintaining safe conditions, but it is your right and responsibility to double check the set up to ensure your own Safety. • YOU HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO ANY STUNT OR SCENE YOU THINK MIGHT BE DANGEROUS SAG contracts guarantee your right to refuse to perform any Stunt or hazardous activity you even think might put you in any danger. If you have doubts about the Safety of any set-up, say no and stick to it. The part about all those people checking it -- and not pointing it at people is in this video, explained by a movie armorer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTOYiNd1AxsSo to be totally clear, there is no SAG rule that requires the armorer, the AD, and the actor to all check the condition of a firearm? Quoted: What's the standard rule on pointing guns at people? Do you know it? It applies everywhere. There is no standard rule on pointing guns at people that applies everywhere. If there were, force on force training would be impossible. There's a general rule that usually applies, and specific rules that apply in specific circumstances. I understand that you want the four rules to be the standard everywhere and always, but in actual reality they don't. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:23:28 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So to be totally clear, there is no SAG rule that requires the armorer, the AD, and the actor to all check the condition of a firearm? There is no standard rule on pointing guns at people that applies everywhere. If there were, force on force training would be impossible. There's a general rule that usually applies, and specific rules that apply in specific circumstances. I understand that you want the four rules to be the standard everywhere and always, but in actual reality they don't. The rules require the actor to refuse to do anything that would be unsafe. Is pointing guns at people safe? What are the allowable exceptions to the rule? The rule applies on movie sets, same as everywhere else. See the Youtube video by the movie armorer who explains it. The NM manslaughter law says that manslaughter is any death caused "without due caution or circumspection." The dead body proves that there was not "due caution or circumspection." So, if you were in AB's place, you would have killed the woman and blamed someone else, even when you know that pointing guns at people is unsafe. Is that correct? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:24:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the SAG bulletin, the relevant part is: • AS AN ACTOR, YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE fOR YOUR OWN SAfETY AND THE SAfETY Of YOUR fELLOW CAST MEMBERS. Production management and crew are responsible for creating and maintaining safe conditions, but it is your right and responsibility to double check the set up to ensure your own Safety. • YOU HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO ANY STUNT OR SCENE YOU THINK MIGHT BE DANGEROUS SAG contracts guarantee your right to refuse to perform any Stunt or hazardous activity you even think might put you in any danger. If you have doubts about the Safety of any set-up, say no and stick to it. The part about all those people checking it -- and not pointing it at people is in this video, explained by a movie armorer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTOYiNd1AxsWhat's the standard rule on pointing guns at people? Do you know it? It applies everywhere. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here's a link to the SAG safety bulletins. https://www.sagaftra.org/files/safety_bulletins_amptp_part_1_9_3_0.pdf Could you quote the part that says "the armorer, that AD, AND FAB should ALL have checked the gun"? In the SAG bulletin, the relevant part is: • AS AN ACTOR, YOU ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE fOR YOUR OWN SAfETY AND THE SAfETY Of YOUR fELLOW CAST MEMBERS. Production management and crew are responsible for creating and maintaining safe conditions, but it is your right and responsibility to double check the set up to ensure your own Safety. • YOU HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO SAY NO TO ANY STUNT OR SCENE YOU THINK MIGHT BE DANGEROUS SAG contracts guarantee your right to refuse to perform any Stunt or hazardous activity you even think might put you in any danger. If you have doubts about the Safety of any set-up, say no and stick to it. The part about all those people checking it -- and not pointing it at people is in this video, explained by a movie armorer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTOYiNd1AxsWhat's the standard rule on pointing guns at people? Do you know it? It applies everywhere. It's not a law anywhere. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:25:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No surprise. That said, he lives with the knowledge he pulled a trigger and a young woman is dead. That will gnaw at him more that he will ever admit. Seems like that will be a lot easier to deal with than a dead wife and mother. If you were in his place, would you kill her and then blame it on everyone else? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:26:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This But I assume he can still be civilly sued for money correct? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This was a weak case that had nothing to do with "the four rules." He didn't buy his way out of it, they had a shit case. Charging him then dropping the charges seem the acts of idiots This But I assume he can still be civilly sued for money correct? Oh yeah. |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:27:15 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not a law anywhere. The law is informed by the rules for the specific situation. So, in his place, you would have killed her and said it was everyone else's fault because you thought it was OK to point guns at people if someone told you to. Is that correct? |
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Posted: 4/21/2023 12:50:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The rules require the actor to refuse to do anything that would be unsafe. Is pointing guns at people safe? What are the allowable exceptions to the rule? The rule applies on movie sets, same as everywhere else. See the Youtube video by the movie armorer who explains it. Quote HistoryQuoted: The rules require the actor to refuse to do anything that would be unsafe. Is pointing guns at people safe? What are the allowable exceptions to the rule? The rule applies on movie sets, same as everywhere else. See the Youtube video by the movie armorer who explains it. Under certain circumstances, pointing guns at people is in fact considered to be safe enough to justify doing so. I've already cited force on force training as an example: thousands of times per year, military service members point guns at each other. Jeff Cooper, father of the four rules, thought there were allowable exceptions. He took this photograph, with his pistol pointed at the cameraman and his finger on the trigger.  SAG thinks there are exceptions. The first rule in safety bulletin number 1 talks about doing so. Like I said, I know you want the four rules to apply everywhere, all the time, but professional firearms users disagree with you. Quoted: The NM manslaughter law says that manslaughter is any death caused "without due caution or circumspection." The dead body proves that there was not "due caution or circumspection." If a death was inherently proof that there was a lack of due caution and circumstance then you wouldn't need to say that manslaughter is a death that occurs due to a lack of due cation and circumstance. Are you familiar with the word "tautology"? Quoted: So, if you were in AB's place, you would have killed the woman and blamed someone else, even when you know that pointing guns at people is unsafe. Is that correct? Logic isn't your strong suit, is it? |
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