Concrete Guys! I need a 28" thick wall, 20' tall. - Page 1

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Concrete Guys! I need a 28" thick wall, 20' tall. (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 3/23/2018 9:55:55 PM EDT

Actually I really don't want to do this, but the developer asked me to prepare a design and I'm just looking into the realistic side of it too. I've got a design but as I describe some of the reasons I don't want to use it, I also want to show how hard it's going to be to build the damn thing.

Can you get a snap tie or other form ties for a 28" wall? I've looked at the usual suspects (white cap, some online sources) and the longest I've found were 24" ties for Symon forms, which is way too short for the 28" wall.

Posted: 3/23/2018 9:57:18 PM EDT

[#1]

Posted: 3/23/2018 9:59:10 PM EDT

[#2]

I wish.

I'd design that for free and even volunteer to tie rebar and place concrete.

Posted: 3/23/2018 9:59:31 PM EDT

[#3]

all thread nuts and washers

Posted: 3/23/2018 10:01:07 PM EDT

[#4]

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Quoted:
http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/trump-building-wall-gif-7.gif

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FPNI

Posted: 3/23/2018 10:01:13 PM EDT

[#5]

Coil rod!

Posted: 3/23/2018 10:01:56 PM EDT

[#6]

Fuck, I'll run the pump, let's go! Where's the slick packs?

Posted: 3/23/2018 10:03:20 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
all thread nuts and washers

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No kidding? That would be outrageously expensive. But they are looking at about $85K in soil remediation to avoid this gigantic fiasco, so maybe it's not so bad.

Posted: 3/23/2018 10:08:11 PM EDT

[#8]

I've used 8' snap ties before (bridge pier cap). There's coil rod, pencil rod, taper ties , etc.

Currently working on an elevator core and were doing a 16' ×30" lift, 300' lineal feet or so, on the first pour. Efco steel forms with taper ties.

If I was in your shoes, I'd be looking at taper ties and gang forms. Use 1/2" coilrod thru bolts or pencil rod on the bulk heads end to end.

Posted: 3/23/2018 10:08:27 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:

No kidding? That would be outrageously expensive. But they are looking at about $85K in soil remediation to avoid this gigantic fiasco, so maybe it's not so bad.

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yeah it will be costly we have done this on a smaller scale not as tall but 36" wide,.. when you cant find wide enough snap ties all thread it is,...worked well just remember to grease the exposed ends

Posted: 3/23/2018 10:15:50 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
I've used 8' snap ties before (bridge pier cap). There's coil rod, pencil rod, taper ties , etc.

Currently working on an elevator core and were doing a 16' ×30" lift, 300' lineal feet or so, on the first pour. Efco steel forms with taper ties.

If I was in your shoes, I'd be looking at taper ties and gang forms. Use 1/2" coilrod thru bolts or pencil rod on the bulk heads end to end.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:
I've used 8' snap ties before (bridge pier cap). There's coil rod, pencil rod, taper ties , etc.

Currently working on an elevator core and were doing a 16' ×30" lift, 300' lineal feet or so, on the first pour. Efco steel forms with taper ties.

If I was in your shoes, I'd be looking at taper ties and gang forms. Use 1/2" coilrod thru bolts or pencil rod on the bulk heads end to end.

I'm not going to source any of this or do any of the work, I just was hoping those in the know would say something like 'you can do it, but it's a huge PITA and very expensive, everything has to be shipped from upper Mongolia and handmade from Yak poop in certified Yurts..."

Unfortunately I'm finding it might be fairly feasible.

Quoted:

yeah it will be costly we have done this on a smaller scale not as tall but 36" wide,.. when you cant find wide enough snap ties all thread it is,...worked well just remember to grease the exposed ends

Thanks

Posted: 3/24/2018 10:54:24 AM EDT

[#11]

(bumped, just for the hell of it)

Posted: 3/24/2018 10:58:51 AM EDT

[#12]

You can do custom tie lengths from both Symons and Efco.

I also saw a guy once make his own 2 foot ties by cutting a bundle of 8" ties, making a jig, and having a guy weld them longer with rebar....it worked.

You can get an on-site tie making machine from EFCO, I think that would be cool as hell to own, but it costs more than I own in forms.

Posted: 3/24/2018 11:01:15 AM EDT

[#13]

Call FDJT. He has plans that he will never use and you paid for them already.

Posted: 3/24/2018 11:06:59 AM EDT

[#14]

What's the pressure on the bottom of that wall at 28" thick?

I just looked and EFCO ties in the manual show a 4,800 lb working load and 9,600 lb breaking load.

Posted: 3/24/2018 11:41:08 AM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
What's the pressure on the bottom of that wall at 28" thick?

I just looked and EFCO ties in the manual show a 4,800 lb working load and 9,600 lb breaking load.

View Quote

Well, a lot. They are going to have to pour in about 87 lifts. It's a stupid idea, but it's becoming less stupid all the time. Unfortunately.

Posted: 3/24/2018 11:55:07 AM EDT

[#16]

Ask the Engineer who drew up the plans. If they're calling for something out of the norm, they must have an idea on how to build it.
I can't imagine a situation where there is a 28" thick wall 20 feet tall. Whats the application?

Posted: 3/24/2018 12:56:01 PM EDT

[#17]

Did a similar wall a couple years ago.

I think we used all thread. I'll dig through some old project photos and see if I can snag some info from them. I may even have submittal, but I don't think we required a submittal for the form system.

Posted: 3/24/2018 1:05:58 PM EDT

[#18]

Well... you can do it, but it's a huge PITA and very expensive, everything has to be shipped from upper Mongolia and handmade from Yak poop in certified Yurts...

Posted: 3/24/2018 1:17:46 PM EDT

[#19]

walls don't work.

Posted: 3/24/2018 1:51:29 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
Fuck, I'll run the pump, let's go! Where's the slick packs?

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No slick pack. We prime dry.

I did that once to a pump operator. Pulled up and just filled his hopper.

Just had a mental fart.

He wasn’t thrilled but luckily it still primed out.

Posted: 3/24/2018 2:02:03 PM EDT

[#21]

You could also use loop ties with panel forms.

Posted: 3/24/2018 2:02:50 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
You can do custom tie lengths from both Symons and Efco.

I also saw a guy once make his own 2 foot ties by cutting a bundle of 8" ties, making a jig, and having a guy weld them longer with rebar....it worked.

You can get an on-site tie making machine from EFCO, I think that would be cool as hell to own, but it costs more than I own in forms.

View Quote

Got any real hard questions?

Posted: 3/24/2018 2:10:01 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
Ask the Engineer who drew up the plans. If they're calling for something out of the norm, they must have an idea on how to build it.
I can't imagine a situation where there is a 28" thick wall 20 feet tall. Whats the application?

View Quote

I am the engineer and this is my reality check. I've never been involved with a 28" wall, looking at the White Cap and other catalogs didn't get me the info I wanted.

It's actually a residential application. There's a seismic slip plane 20' down, geotech wants us to tie into it. We're doing cost comparison for helical, driven piles, gigantic foundations, geo-fabrics, etc. There are about 20 lots affected.

I did get the footing size down to a simple 12' wide....

Posted: 3/24/2018 2:10:57 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Did a similar wall a couple years ago.

I think we used all thread. I'll dig through some old project photos and see if I can snag some info from them. I may even have submittal, but I don't think we required a submittal for the form system.

View Quote

Awesome, I'd love to see it!

Quoted:
Well... you can do it, but it's a huge PITA and very expensive, everything has to be shipped from upper Mongolia and handmade from Yak poop in certified Yurts...

View Quote

Exactly what I was afraid of. Thanks for the confirmation.

Posted: 3/24/2018 2:31:15 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:

I am the engineer and this is my reality check. I've never been involved with a 28" wall, looking at the White Cap and other catalogs didn't get me the info I wanted.

It's actually a residential application. There's a seismic slip plane 20' down, geotech wants us to tie into it. We're doing cost comparison for helical, driven piles, gigantic foundations, geo-fabrics, etc. There are about 20 lots affected.

I did get the footing size down to a simple 12' wide....

View Quote

Consult with some California Engineer firms? We have to do this stuff all the time due to earthquake concerns.
Usually its drilled piers. 20 feet is not unusual. I'm not an Engineer, building contractor, but I've never seen what you describe. I live in the bay area and there are hills where very expensive homes are built, right in the middle of earthquake country. Drilled piers to refusal, grade beams connecting it all together.

Posted: 3/24/2018 2:44:41 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

Consult with some California Engineer firms? We have to do this stuff all the time due to earthquake concerns.
Usually its drilled piers. 20 feet is not unusual. I'm not an Engineer, building contractor, but I've never seen what you describe. I live in the bay area and there are hills where very expensive homes are built, right in the middle of earthquake country. Drilled piers to refusal, grade beams connecting it all together.

View Quote

That's part of the problem, we don't really have a lot of contractors of expertise in the area, unless you're looking at big bridge contractors and their fees are also going to be pretty high. We might end up with drilled piers, I simply can't imagine that it's more expensive than a full 20' tall foundation.

I thought we had a good solution that everyone was happy with. The Geotech engineer loved it, I loved it, the city loved it.... But the prices was far higher than the developer was planning on so he's got me doing some preliminary stuff just to price out some options.

It pays by the hour, so I don't mind a small science project.

Posted: 3/24/2018 2:46:49 PM EDT

[#27]

Tilt Panels?

Posted: 3/24/2018 2:50:52 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
Tilt Panels?

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There's a gigantic shear load at the bottom, I don't know how I'd connect a tilt-up to a footing for that. That's why the wall is 28" thick, they have a loose granular soil that is expected to more 4" during a seismic event, most foundations are planned for 2". So not only are my footings very deep to hit solid ground above the slip plane, they are also holding back a much higher soil load than normal.

I have no experience with tilt-ups, it's an interesting thought.

Posted: 3/24/2018 3:07:28 PM EDT

[#29]

Shotcrete is the answer. Is the wall going to be freestanding or supported?

Posted: 3/24/2018 3:52:47 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
Shotcrete is the answer. Is the wall going to be freestanding or supported?

View Quote

Dug down 20' to solid ground, then refilled and compacted on the inside for 9 1/2'. It will still have a 10' basement (after the slab is poured).

Posted: 3/24/2018 4:06:21 PM EDT

[#31]

When our cancer center was being built I saw walls that thick and that tall. Huge amount of epoxy coated rebar. I did not pay attention to the forms or form ties. But galvanized rods seem to be a easy solution. But I am not an engineer but a electrical guy.

Posted: 3/24/2018 4:10:06 PM EDT

[#32]

I'm stupid enough to run the vibrator and try to bust the form to watch the carpenters scramble!

Posted: 3/24/2018 4:18:30 PM EDT

[#33]

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Quoted:
I'm stupid enough to run the vibrator and try to bust the form to watch the carpenters scramble!

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A 28” thick wall is thick enough to hide a body, not even the smell will get out.

Posted: 3/24/2018 4:21:13 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
walls don't work.

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... they sure the fuck do!

Posted: 3/24/2018 4:23:18 PM EDT

[#35]

Maybe the Israelis can help?

Posted: 3/24/2018 4:29:51 PM EDT

[#36]

I'm just here for all the cool discussion of heavy construction tech.

Posted: 3/24/2018 4:30:30 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
place concrete.

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I'm glad you said place concrete and not pour cement.

Posted: 3/24/2018 4:59:40 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:

There's a gigantic shear load at the bottom, I don't know how I'd connect a tilt-up to a footing for that. That's why the wall is 28" thick, they have a loose granular soil that is expected to more 4" during a seismic event, most foundations are planned for 2". So not only are my footings very deep to hit solid ground above the slip plane, they are also holding back a much higher soil load than normal.

I have no experience with tilt-ups, it's an interesting thought.

View Quote

Put the bottom of the panel in a key way ?

Posted: 3/24/2018 6:08:08 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
Dug down 20' to solid ground, then refilled and compacted on the inside for 9 1/2'. It will still have a 10' basement (after the slab is poured).

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shotcrete is the answer. Is the wall going to be freestanding or supported?

Dug down 20' to solid ground, then refilled and compacted on the inside for 9 1/2'. It will still have a 10' basement (after the slab is poured).

I would use shotcrete for sure

Posted: 3/24/2018 6:23:20 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
I would use shotcrete for sure

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Shotcrete is the answer. Is the wall going to be freestanding or supported?

Dug down 20' to solid ground, then refilled and compacted on the inside for 9 1/2'. It will still have a 10' basement (after the slab is poured).

I would use shotcrete for sure

Wouldn't anchoring the mat and hitting it enough times to make a square out of it be way more work than just forming and pouring a normal wall?

Posted: 3/24/2018 6:35:29 PM EDT

[#41]

I got a company that can probably do that for you. Permacast walls can probably work something out along with custom engineering if needed

Posted: 3/24/2018 6:40:14 PM EDT

[#42]

Efco taper ties are very adjustable.I have poured walls from 4", to 22' thick.Usually when walls get anything over 3', you use coil rod, pencil rod, or the iron workers will weld longer ties.

Posted: 3/24/2018 9:11:50 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
I would use shotcrete for sure

View Quote

It has to act as a retaining wall for a 4" soil deflection. We are likely to use big footings and design it as a cantilever wall. I don't see how shotcrete could do that, but I've never used it either.

It's a tough spot on build for sure, but the view is really incredible. We just need to get the foundations figured out. I thought we had.

Posted: 3/24/2018 9:13:16 PM EDT

[#44]

Get a hold of who is supplying the forms , order snap ties thru them

Posted: 3/24/2018 9:34:27 PM EDT

[#45]

We did some medical diagnostic building with walls in this thickness range.
At least 2' and larger.
We might still have the for work shops.

Posted: 3/24/2018 9:59:29 PM EDT

[#46]

Variation of Alaska Barrier T-walls?

Posted: 3/24/2018 10:13:28 PM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
What's the pressure on the bottom of that wall at 28" thick?

I just looked and EFCO ties in the manual show a 4,800 lb working load and 9,600 lb breaking load.

View Quote

Going to need a taper tie every 4'-6' depending on your panel layout.

Posted: 3/24/2018 10:21:16 PM EDT

[#48]

Just how many bags of quikrete are we looking at?

Posted: 3/24/2018 10:37:15 PM EDT

[#49]

Gangforms and she bolts?

Posted: 3/25/2018 12:11:20 AM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:
We did some medical diagnostic building with walls in this thickness range.
At least 2' and larger.
We might still have the for work shops.

View Quote

As of now, this is just exploratory to see what's easy for the average contractor. It's pretty concerning that all the other projects with this type of construction are big buildings like you're talking about, I'm just trying to find a way to get some homes in the ground. I think there's going to be some pretty serious sticker shock- actually there already has been.

We were about $85K/lot for the geo-fabric. I'm starting to think that's really not so bad.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Concrete Guys! I need a 28" thick wall, 20' tall. (Page 1 of 2)

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