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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:26:52 PM EDT
[#1]
That's cool.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:29:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Cool thread.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:36:42 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Always wondered how the powder was arranged. Thought it was small grain like rifle/pistol ammo. Didn’t know they are larger pellets. Vaporized DU is bad stuff. It’s toxic, like Tungsten. It’s not a radioactive issue. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:37:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: M829A3 sabot round. Depleted uranium penetrating rod. DU is pyrophoric and self sharpening. Turrets blow off from exploding ammunition of the target tank, not the sabot round. ETA: crewman getting sucked out the exit hole is a myth.  ETA2: If you look at the different versions of the M829 round, you'll see the penetrating rod gets increasingly longer to increase the sectional density and penetration capability. A3 has a steel tip for defeating reactive armor (I don’t know how). A4 is programmable so it does something just before it hits but I’m not sure what. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:38:07 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s toxic, like Tungsten. It’s not a radioactive issue. Tungsten is toxic? How? Like if you grind it and breath the dust? |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:39:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tungsten is toxic? How? Like if you grind it and breath the dust? Yes. You don’t want to inhale it. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:47:00 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:53:57 PM EDT
[#8]
That’s mostly damage from the round setting off the magazine.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 3:58:56 PM EDT
[#9]
This is all that is left after being fired.
There is a MPAT, SABOT and the center is CAN.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 4:05:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is all that is left after being fired. There is a MPAT, SABOT and the center is CAN.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47660/PXL_20210509_195631854_jpg-1935916.JPG Every tanker, hell even most mechs, have at least one stub base. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 4:17:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. You don’t want to inhale it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Tungsten is toxic? How? Like if you grind it and breath the dust? Yes. You don’t want to inhale it. Ok cool, that's what I thought. I didn't want to have to get rid of my favorite putter! |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:03:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  A major advantage of DU over Tungsten is that it is self sharpening. Dramatically increases penetration. Can I get mower blades from such wonderful material? |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:26:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can I get mower blades from such wonderful material? No but you can get self sharpening sandpaper (ie 3M Cubitron). The difference between that and regular abrasive paper is night and day. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:31:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryDevastating. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:31:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The canister round on the right is awesome! Turns your tank into a giant shotgun.  Faith loves them. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:36:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had 30 of these M865 finned penetrators given to me back in 2005 - sold them all a couple of years ago for $50ea. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/766/M865-1935833.jpg Those are what you use to play lawn darts, when your lawn is asphalt. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:37:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do tankers call this a "beehive" round like the artillery does? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes. A sabot round, APFSDS, armor piercing, fin stabilized discarding sabot. Americans use uranium. Most other countries use tungsten. The canister round on the right is awesome! Turns your tank into a giant shotgun. Do tankers call this a "beehive" round like the artillery does? @kpacman Beehive or beehive timed. Flachette round https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.en.google-info.in/4051661/1/beehive-anti-personnel-round.html A bunch of tiny darts. You set the timer fir distance from muzzle fir the round to pop and send the darts down range. Canister is grape shot. Or whatever they load into it. There was a TC in my NG troop (1980-87) that was in VN. They had Sheridans. With 152 mm cannons. And canister rounds. To clear foliage. ?? |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:38:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryFuuuuuck! Through the berm. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 5:43:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Is this a tank round? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/259519/B9D3FA8B-2995-4D3E-8C61-89D8D55129B3_jpe-1935464.JPG HEY!! You could put someones eye out with that!! 
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Posted: 5/9/2021 6:05:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do tankers call this a "beehive" round like the artillery does? Another guy already answered but no, the tank canister rounds are not the same as the artillery beehive round. Canister uses round balls; beehive uses finned nails (flechettes). The flechettes flying through the air make a sound like a swarm of bees, hence the name. I don't know what canister sounds like when fired but probably not the same. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 6:06:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Never seen it or tried it myself, but guessing the rumors are somewhat true about what happens if you shoot sabot when the selector is in HEAT, MPAT or CAN.
Also, has anyone ever even seen a STAFF round? It's some unicorn round that was important enough to have a spot on the selector at some point, but nobody I know has ever seen one in person. IIRC, the STAFF selection was replaced with CAN and it's been so long I don't recall if there were further developments where a 5th selection was incorporated on A1s (I think A2s have 5, but never been in one myself). |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 6:18:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never seen it or tried it myself, but guessing the rumors are somewhat true about what happens if you shoot sabot when the selector is in HEAT, MPAT or CAN. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 6:23:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could you expand on that for those of us who don't have a clue? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Never seen it or tried it myself, but guessing the rumors are somewhat true about what happens if you shoot sabot when the selector is in HEAT, MPAT or CAN. Ballistic computer selection You turn a handle to the selected round type. It automatically calculates super elevation based on round weight, muzzle velocity etc. Your crosshairs stay on the target but the barrel is elevated properly. Think holdover on a scope but keeping the cross hairs dead nuts on your AP. HEAT is slower than APFDS. So more elevation is added. Set the BC to HEAT and fire a Sabot. You could have a serious problem down range. Like waaaaay down range. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 6:32:15 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For those that don't know, we use depleted uranium partially because it's stupid dense and makes a fantastic penetrator but also because uranium is a pyrophoric metal. Pyrophoric metals combust spontaneously in contact with air. DU has a self-ignition temp of around 600-700 degrees which it easily reaches from the impact and the subsequent penetration of heavy armor. Meaning, that after it's penetrated the first wall of the target the DU penetrator itself is then in a highly particulated phase and it catches fire spontaneously and vigorously which creates a ball of fire inside the target that's something on the order of 5000deg F along with the concomitant pressure increase and vaporizing of flesh and then the tank turret launches 150 feet into the air. So our penetrators don't just poke holes in targets and kill the occupants with simple spall, they blow the absolute shit out of them and leave the crews looking like overcooked bacon. Well put. The inside of the hapless enemy turret is like a blast furnace. Everything burns. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 7:10:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ballistic computer selection You turn a handle to the selected round type. It automatically calculates super elevation based on round weight, muzzle velocity etc. Your crosshairs stay on the target but the barrel is elevated properly. Think holdover on a scope but keeping the cross hairs dead nuts on your AP. HEAT is slower than APFDS. So more elevation is added. Set the BC to HEAT and fire a Sabot. You could have a serious problem down range. Like waaaaay down range. Thanks. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 7:22:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Well that'll punch the second wall whether it opens or not
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Posted: 5/9/2021 7:26:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Those used to be made about four minutes from my home. Not sure if they still are.
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Posted: 5/9/2021 8:11:22 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuuuuuck! Through the berm. Yep! The older ones would go through 10' without any trouble. Shipped a crapload of the DU contaminated sand to waste disposal from Yuma back in the day. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:15:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep! The older ones would go through 10' without any trouble. Shipped a crapload of the DU contaminated sand to waste disposal from Yuma back in the day. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Fuuuuuck! Through the berm. Yep! The older ones would go through 10' without any trouble. Shipped a crapload of the DU contaminated sand to waste disposal from Yuma back in the day. Lol So fuck your hull down defilade |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:26:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For those of us who don't have enough fingers, what is the number? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: you can calculate the velocity of the projectile just from that picture. You can get the velocities from the shock waves /angles on the sabot. I don't see any noticeable shock waves on the penetrator itself though. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 9:46:20 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:01:50 PM EDT
[#32]
DU vs. Tungsten
If you want to get into the weeds, read this article. gives a good overview of the Military's experience with DU vs WA (Tungsten Alloy) And the testing that they went thru , the results, and how we got good at working with DU, and how much better it performs as a Anti Armor penetrator vs. Tungsten. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:09:41 PM EDT
[#33]
 120MM on the left (105Mm HEAT Training on the right) Since a service Sabot rd can easily leave the Impact area of most training ranges if the gun elevation is accidentally "Jacked up" (e.g.. You have a slower moving rd indexed in the FCS, which puts the gun at a higher elevation, and you shoot a APFSDS-T instead) So the "Cone" stabilized training Sabot was developed. The holes in the cone of the penetrator allow the rd to mimic ballistically a service rd out to 5000meters. at around 7000meters the air flow is interrupted by the holes in the cone, causing a Whiffle ball effect on the rd, making it unstable and it drops like a stone. This features keeps the rd "down" inside the standard Gunnery training ranges. And now you know.... 
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:23:05 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: DU vs. Tungsten If you want to get into the weeds, read this article. gives a good overview of the Military's experience with DU vs WA (Tungsten Alloy) And the testing that they went thru , the results, and how we got good at working with DU, and how much better it performs as a Anti Armor penetrator vs. Tungsten. Nice. Strangely nowhere in there does it talk about how DU is preferable because of its pyrophoricity which launches turrets 150' in the air
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:30:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Every tanker, hell even most mechs, have at least one stub base. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is all that is left after being fired. There is a MPAT, SABOT and the center is CAN.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47660/PXL_20210509_195631854_jpg-1935916.JPG Every tanker, hell even most mechs, have at least one stub base. We get ten or 15 or more after each gunnery. I have lots of them around the house. 
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:33:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Nice. Strangely nowhere in there does it talk about how DU is preferable because of its pyrophoricity which launches turrets 150' in the air Actually it does talk about the Pyrophoricity and it's desired effects.. The flying turrets has always been a by product of the the Soviets Cassette/Carousel designed ammo storage. As APFSDS rds are Kinetic, they use there great speed to Punch thru. Hitting the ammo and fuel cause the secondary explosion's that cause turrets to fly in the air.   These designs put the projectiles and powder charges directly under the turret. So when a rd penetrates and ignites the ammo, all that explosive force has to go some where. It's why we keep our ammo compartmentalized in the turret bustle behind blast doors with blow off panels on the turret roof. DU also has a "Self Sharpening" characteristic to it which keeps the tip from deforming as it moves thru metal and minimizes cracking in the longitudinal axis as the rds penetrates thru armor. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:35:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know many women who thought they were gonna die from the friction of my penetration. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:37:57 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well that'll punch the second wall whether it opens or not I understood that reference. Jpg |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 10:49:23 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually it does talk about the Pyrophoricity and it's desired effects.. The flying turrets has always been a by product of the the Soviets Cassette/Carousel designed ammo storage. As APFSDS rds are Kinetic, they use there great speed to Punch thru. Hitting the ammo and fuel cause the secondary explosion's that cause turrets to fly in the air. https://i.imgur.com/GAybAvr.png https://i.imgur.com/jWX6lLN.png These designs put the projectiles and powder charges directly under the turret. So when a rd penetrates and ignites the ammo, all that explosive force has to go some where. It's why we keep our ammo compartmentalized in the turret bustle behind blast doors with blow off panels on the turret roof. DU also has a "Self Sharpening" characteristic to it which keeps the tip from deforming as it moves thru metal and minimizes cracking in the longitudinal axis as the rds penetrates thru armor. Agree the launching of turrets is due to setting off of the rounds inside the tanks. The self sharpening aspect is one of the most important properties for selecting DU for penetrators which I referred to in my first post here. I see pyrophoricity nowhere mentioned in the PDF. The idea that the burning of DU being a driver to launching turrets is laughable and shows a lack of understanding of basic physics. Also when you are punching holes through several inches of steel with DU or tungsten at over 5500fps, there is going to be molten steel and a massive amount of heat generated no matter what the penetrator is made of and anything flammable in its path will be ignited. |
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Posted: 5/9/2021 11:59:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. A sabot round, APFSDS, armor piercing, fin stabilized discarding sabot. Americans use uranium. Most other countries use tungsten. The canister round on the right is awesome! Turns your tank into a giant shotgun. I always thought a 155 version for the admittedly rare times that arty is in a situation where they have to direct fire on armor would be cool as fuck. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 12:30:48 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For those that don't know, we use depleted uranium partially because it's stupid dense and makes a fantastic penetrator but also because uranium is a pyrophoric metal. Pyrophoric metals combust spontaneously in contact with air. DU has a self-ignition temp of around 600-700 degrees which it easily reaches from the impact and the subsequent penetration of heavy armor. Meaning, that after it's penetrated the first wall of the target the DU penetrator itself is then in a highly particulated phase and it catches fire spontaneously and vigorously which creates a ball of fire inside the target that's something on the order of 5000deg F along with the concomitant pressure increase and vaporizing of flesh and then the tank turret launches 150 feet into the air. So our penetrators don't just poke holes in targets and kill the occupants with simple spall, they blow the absolute shit out of them and leave the crews looking like overcooked bacon.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 1:38:21 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go to the 40 second mark  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-42nzXnEh5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coWJDfcdR60This is so fucking bad ass. The technology in today's weapons is absolutely amazing. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 1:44:56 AM EDT
[#43]
Surprised the Geneva convention doesn't claim that it is an inhumane way to kill the enemy.
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Posted: 5/10/2021 1:55:22 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I always thought a 155 version for the admittedly rare times that arty is in a situation where they have to direct fire on armor would be cool as fuck. Sabots don't like the rifling in tube artillery. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 1:56:05 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has been decades but I think that may be a sabot round with a tungsten penetrator. Legend has it that it punches an entry hole, travels through everything in its path, punches an exit hole possibly sucking parts of crewmen out when it leaves. They’re depleted uranium not tungsten. APFSDS rounds. 100% safe unless they’re in black radioactive goop form dripping out the exit wound in a dead enemy tank. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 2:01:52 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.imgur.com/kim8LZa.jpg 120MM on the left (105Mm HEAT Training on the right) Since a service Sabot rd can easily leave the Impact area of most training ranges if the gun elevation is accidentally "Jacked up" (e.g.. You have a slower moving rd indexed in the FCS, which puts the gun at a higher elevation, and you shoot a APFSDS-T instead) So the "Cone" stabilized training Sabot was developed. The holes in the cone of the penetrator allow the rd to mimic ballistically a service rd out to 5000meters. at around 7000meters the air flow is interrupted by the holes in the cone, causing a Whiffle ball effect on the rd, making it unstable and it drops like a stone. This features keeps the rd "down" inside the standard Gunnery training ranges. And now you know.... All I know, is that you sumbitches kept me up all night forever when I was stationed at Ft Hood! Dicks!
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Posted: 5/10/2021 3:14:07 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s toxic, like Tungsten. It’s not a radioactive issue. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Always wondered how the powder was arranged. Thought it was small grain like rifle/pistol ammo. Didn’t know they are larger pellets. Vaporized DU is bad stuff. It’s toxic, like Tungsten. It’s not a radioactive issue. On the maintenance side where I work, any barrels that have had DU fired through them are marked unserviceable, crated up, labeled as radioactive waste (no shit), and returned back to Rock Island Arsenal for disposal. I'd have to check to see if the Abrams barrels fall under this, but I know for a fact the M242 does. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with any. Local protocol for any radioactive exposure (including DU shit) involves condoning off the entire building and then calling the local NBC unit, who spend the next couple weeks running Geiger counters and deconning everything, and the people exposed get to have medical checkups to make sure they're not showing any adverse affects. It's a giant pain in the ass. More on topic, a buddy of mine has 3 aft caps from rounds he fired at bad guys in Iraq, including a canister round. His story, there was a guy with an RPG behind a wall that needed to die. There were holes in the wall from previous tank rounds that were fired at this building. He got permission from his commander to fire the canister shot because no one could hit this asshole. Now, the round has over 1000 3/8" tungsten alloy balls inside effectively turning his tank into a fucking punt gun from hell. 15 feet of wall magically turned into dust, and the only thing they found of the guy was a shoe, bits of the RPG, and a tad bit of blood mixed in with the dust. Fuck. You. Then his commander found out those round are something along the lines of $60,000 a piece, so he got told he couldn't fire anymore .
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Posted: 5/10/2021 3:42:01 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On the maintenance side where I work, any barrels that have had DU fired through them are marked unserviceable, crated up, labeled as radioactive waste (no shit), and returned back to Rock Island Arsenal for disposal. I'd have to check to see if the Abrams barrels fall under this, but I know for a fact the M242 does. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with any. Local protocol for any radioactive exposure (including DU shit) involves condoning off the entire building and then calling the local NBC unit, who spend the next couple weeks running Geiger counters and deconning everything, and the people exposed get to have medical checkups to make sure they're not showing any adverse affects. It's a giant pain in the ass. More on topic, a buddy of mine has 3 aft caps from rounds he fired at bad guys in Iraq, including a canister round. His story, there was a guy with an RPG behind a wall that needed to die. There were holes in the wall from previous tank rounds that were fired at this building. He got permission from his commander to fire the canister shot because no one could hit this asshole. Now, the round has over 1000 3/8" tungsten alloy balls inside effectively turning his tank into a fucking punt gun from hell. 15 feet of wall magically turned into dust, and the only thing they found of the guy was a shoe, bits of the RPG, and a tad bit of blood mixed in with the dust. Fuck. You. Then his commander found out those round are something along the lines of $60,000 a piece, so he got told he couldn't fire anymore .60K apiece? Hell, a JDAM doesn't cost that much. Well... I would think that is still far from the most expensive kill on the US military's books. |
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Posted: 5/10/2021 3:54:31 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've heard that but the physics don't add up. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It has been decades but I think that may be a sabot round with a tungsten penetrator. Legend has it that it punches an entry hole, travels through everything in its path, punches an exit hole possibly sucking parts of crewmen out when it leaves. I've heard that but the physics don't add up.
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Posted: 5/10/2021 5:23:18 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.imgur.com/kim8LZa.jpg So the "Cone" stabilized training Sabot was developed. The holes in the cone of the penetrator allow the rd to mimic ballistically a service rd out to 5000meters. at around 7000meters the air flow is interrupted by the holes in the cone, causing a Whiffle ball effect on the rd, making it unstable and it drops like a stone. This features keeps the rd "down" inside the standard Gunnery training ranges. . Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.imgur.com/kim8LZa.jpg So the "Cone" stabilized training Sabot was developed. The holes in the cone of the penetrator allow the rd to mimic ballistically a service rd out to 5000meters. at around 7000meters the air flow is interrupted by the holes in the cone, causing a Whiffle ball effect on the rd, making it unstable and it drops like a stone. This features keeps the rd "down" inside the standard Gunnery training ranges. . It's more like 2500 meters, really hard to accurately hit anything at 3,000+ with a training round. Quoted: Then his commander found out those round are something along the lines of $60,000 a piece, so he got told he couldn't fire anymore .Maybe? I've seen them fired in training fairly often so I doubt they're that expensive now. |
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