User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:35:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And you still can't, or won't answer the question. What if it was your mother or grandmother. Nut up or shut up. Look above skippy. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:36:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And you still can't, or won't answer the question. What if it was your mother or grandmother. Nut up or shut up. You are being trolled by some of the best....and falling for it. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:36:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I highly doubt anyone in this forum would support the officer if it was their own grandmother or mother. The only support for this shooting has been from current officers. I don't understand how nobody sees this as an issue. BUT.....THEY WERE FOLLOWING ORDERS BUT.....THAT IS HOW THEY ARE TRAINED The same thing could be said about Nazi Germany At this point, you're just trolling for responses and trying to get people banned. You haven't made a reasonable argument for anything, you're just playing off emotions and trying to illicit negative responses. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:37:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look above skippy. You addressed what you would have done beforehand sweet pea. You haven't addressed how you would have handled the situation in the video, as well as the aftermath, peanut. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:38:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And you still can't, or won't answer the question. What if it was your mother or grandmother. Nut up or shut up. If it was my grandma I’d be glad the cop shot her before she killed me, my wife or our kid. Now my grandma wouldn’t kill me but that crazy bitch with dementia in my grandma’s body might. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:39:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it was my grandma I’d be glad the cop shot her before she killed me, my wife or our kid. Now my grandma wouldn’t kill me but that crazy bitch with dementia in my grandma’s body might. Well bud, all I can say is that I am happy I'm not part of your family. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:39:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the family, with no professional training, should have dealt with it instead of calling someone with professional training, and that would have prevented her from being shot? Read your own statement back to yourself, and pretend it was your mother or grandmother. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was always told the winner of a knife fight is the one that leaves in an ambulance instead of a bag. She got what could be expected in that situation. If you're going to wave knives at a cop expect to get shot at some point. I wouldn't expect anyone to go hands on w/ someone like that. Sucks for the family but if they didn't want her shot they should have dealt with it instead of calling the police. So the family, with no professional training, should have dealt with it instead of calling someone with professional training, and that would have prevented her from being shot? Read your own statement back to yourself, and pretend it was your mother or grandmother. Basic rule of thumb when dealing with LE of any kind is; if you call them, don't act surprised when someone gets shot. They exist to enforce dubiously constitutional (at best) laws, NOT to protect you or anyone else. Do not call or talk to the cops. The only reason I'd call the police after dealing with a home invasion is that; 1) I'd get in more trouble for not reporting the body 2) I'd probably need the police report for the insurance claim.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:41:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He whipped out the Nazi card, definitely from DU. At this point, you're just trolling for responses and trying to get people banned. You haven't made a reasonable argument for anything, you're just playing off emotions and trying to illicit negative responses. So far from the truth. Half of this forum belongs in DU or Reddit. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:41:14 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/BlazingSaddles If not violent and no crime has occurred other than this. Sure. Explain what would happen if This officer had left, and adult children, grandchild(supposedly still in house), or some other 3rd party had been stabbed/sliced/attacked? We have shoehorned LE into this. Edit: fix link to gif Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Look up the term polish hostage. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/BlazingSaddles If not violent and no crime has occurred other than this. Sure. Explain what would happen if This officer had left, and adult children, grandchild(supposedly still in house), or some other 3rd party had been stabbed/sliced/attacked? We have shoehorned LE into this. Edit: fix link to gif If the grandchild is in there, that's different. Other than that, its the family's problem. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:42:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Hasn't anyone learn don't invite the man to handle family issues unless you want them to go out in a body bag
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:44:18 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. I am sure that a 75 year old woman would be able to inflict those wounds on a police officer 2 times her size wearing armor. Go home. Your argument makes no sense. One wild swing and the knife goes right into the temple, lights out. Size doesn't really matter. It would have been nice if this could have gone another way but it didn't. Things happen fast when they go bad, you wouldn't know. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:44:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. I am sure that a 75 year old woman would be able to inflict those wounds on a police officer 2 times her size wearing armor. Go home. Your argument makes no sense. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is a damn good reason you don't go near ANYONE wielding a knife https://spotterup.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Bushknife.jpg The 21 foot rule is a rule for a reason. Someone can cross 21 feet with a knife and slice and dice your ass before almost anyone can draw and shoot, and hope to stop the threat before your fatally wounded. Yep. I am sure that a 75 year old woman would be able to inflict those wounds on a police officer 2 times her size wearing armor. Go home. Your argument makes no sense. Armor? Like a knight? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:47:07 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Armor? Like a knight? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is a damn good reason you don't go near ANYONE wielding a knife https://spotterup.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Bushknife.jpg The 21 foot rule is a rule for a reason. Someone can cross 21 feet with a knife and slice and dice your ass before almost anyone can draw and shoot, and hope to stop the threat before your fatally wounded. Yep. I am sure that a 75 year old woman would be able to inflict those wounds on a police officer 2 times her size wearing armor. Go home. Your argument makes no sense. Armor? Like a knight?  Attached File |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:47:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the grandchild is in there, that's different. Other than that, its the family's problem. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Look up the term polish hostage. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/BlazingSaddles If not violent and no crime has occurred other than this. Sure. Explain what would happen if This officer had left, and adult children, grandchild(supposedly still in house), or some other 3rd party had been stabbed/sliced/attacked? We have shoehorned LE into this. Edit: fix link to gif If the grandchild is in there, that's different. Other than that, its the family's problem. Was there anyone believed to be in the house? If grandma has her two knives in her house, and just wants to be left alone, and doesn't step outside, would it be unreasonable to back up and give it some more time before shooting her? Also, they blur it, so you can't see if she took any steps towards the officer, etc. It would be different if the cop was cornered in the house or something, like in that fairly recent shooting case with the old guy that I believe had made its way to GD.... |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:48:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was there anyone believed to be in the house? If grandma has her two knives in her house, and just wants to be left alone, and doesn't step outside, would it be unreasonable to back up and give it some more time before shooting her? Also, they blur it, so you can't see if she took any steps towards the officer, etc. It would be different if the cop was cornered in the house or something, like in that fairly recent shooting case with the old guy that I believe had made its way to GD.... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Look up the term polish hostage. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/BlazingSaddles If not violent and no crime has occurred other than this. Sure. Explain what would happen if This officer had left, and adult children, grandchild(supposedly still in house), or some other 3rd party had been stabbed/sliced/attacked? We have shoehorned LE into this. Edit: fix link to gif If the grandchild is in there, that's different. Other than that, its the family's problem. Was there anyone believed to be in the house? If grandma has her two knives in her house, and just wants to be left alone, and doesn't step outside, would it be unreasonable to back up and give it some more time before shooting her? Also, they blur it, so you can't see if she took any steps towards the officer, etc. It would be different if the cop was cornered in the house or something, like in that fairly recent shooting case with the old guy that I believe had made its way to GD.... Supposedly her grandkid was in the house. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:52:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No social worker is going to that call alone or even initially. No crisis team is walking up to that door on the initial call. Even after we make contact, social workers and 'crisis teams' won't and don't deal with Alzheimer's or Dementia patients. It's a chronic medical issue,, not a mental health issue. At best, they may help them get in touch with someone to assist, but it is my experience that the family has already been long dealing with the issue, and they'll be told it's on them to get hold of the specialist that is already dealing with the patient. Jay |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:54:07 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Supposedly her grandkid was in the house. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Look up the term polish hostage. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/BlazingSaddles If not violent and no crime has occurred other than this. Sure. Explain what would happen if This officer had left, and adult children, grandchild(supposedly still in house), or some other 3rd party had been stabbed/sliced/attacked? We have shoehorned LE into this. Edit: fix link to gif If the grandchild is in there, that's different. Other than that, its the family's problem. Was there anyone believed to be in the house? If grandma has her two knives in her house, and just wants to be left alone, and doesn't step outside, would it be unreasonable to back up and give it some more time before shooting her? Also, they blur it, so you can't see if she took any steps towards the officer, etc. It would be different if the cop was cornered in the house or something, like in that fairly recent shooting case with the old guy that I believe had made its way to GD.... Supposedly her grandkid was in the house. If that was information the shooter had, it's 100% going to be justified, legally speaking. And most likely qualified immunity, since it's not far off from the Kisela v. Hughes case. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:56:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One wild swing and the knife goes right into the temple, lights out. Size doesn't really matter. It would have been nice if this could have gone another way but it didn't. Things happen fast when they go bad, you wouldn't know. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yep. I am sure that a 75 year old woman would be able to inflict those wounds on a police officer 2 times her size wearing armor. Go home. Your argument makes no sense. One wild swing and the knife goes right into the temple, lights out. Size doesn't really matter. It would have been nice if this could have gone another way but it didn't. Things happen fast when they go bad, you wouldn't know. If you can't evade a 75 year old woman, you should not have a badge. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:57:41 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the family, with no professional training, should have dealt with it instead of calling someone with professional training, and that would have prevented her from being shot? Read your own statement back to yourself, and pretend it was your mother or grandmother. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was always told the winner of a knife fight is the one that leaves in an ambulance instead of a bag. She got what could be expected in that situation. If you're going to wave knives at a cop expect to get shot at some point. I wouldn't expect anyone to go hands on w/ someone like that. Sucks for the family but if they didn't want her shot they should have dealt with it instead of calling the police. So the family, with no professional training, should have dealt with it instead of calling someone with professional training, and that would have prevented her from being shot? Read your own statement back to yourself, and pretend it was your mother or grandmother. The cop is trained to deal w/ criminals. She presented him w/ a deadly force situation at way too close a distance and from what I could see he had no backup. Less lethal isn't going to be much of an option there. If that was my mother or grandmother and I was stupid enough to call the guy w/ the gun to deal w/ the problem I'd call it my fault or unavoidable. Quit blaming the cop when he's the one that showed up when called and used the tools he has in his bag. It sounds like there was at least reported to be a child in the buildings still. Leaving isn't an option. I don't expect anyone to go hands on w/ someone carrying a pair of butcher knives. That little old lady can cut your throat just as easily as a 20 year old guy if you get close. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 2:59:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even after we make contact, social workers and 'crisis teams' won't and don't deal with Alzheimer's or Dementia patients. It's a chronic medical issue,, not a mental health issue. At best, they may help them get in touch with someone to assist, but it is my experience that the family has already been long dealing with the issue, and they'll be told it's on them to get hold of the specialist that is already dealing with the patient. Jay Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No social worker is going to that call alone or even initially. No crisis team is walking up to that door on the initial call. Even after we make contact, social workers and 'crisis teams' won't and don't deal with Alzheimer's or Dementia patients. It's a chronic medical issue,, not a mental health issue. At best, they may help them get in touch with someone to assist, but it is my experience that the family has already been long dealing with the issue, and they'll be told it's on them to get hold of the specialist that is already dealing with the patient. Jay @AZCOP. If you were the first on scene, how would you have tried to handle the situation? Honest question. No sarcasm. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:02:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even after we make contact, social workers and 'crisis teams' won't and don't deal with Alzheimer's or Dementia patients. It's a chronic medical issue,, not a mental health issue. At best, they may help them get in touch with someone to assist, but it is my experience that the family has already been long dealing with the issue, and they'll be told it's on them to get hold of the specialist that is already dealing with the patient. Jay Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No social worker is going to that call alone or even initially. No crisis team is walking up to that door on the initial call. Even after we make contact, social workers and 'crisis teams' won't and don't deal with Alzheimer's or Dementia patients. It's a chronic medical issue,, not a mental health issue. At best, they may help them get in touch with someone to assist, but it is my experience that the family has already been long dealing with the issue, and they'll be told it's on them to get hold of the specialist that is already dealing with the patient. Jay And all the police are gonna do is ship them to the hospital where staff says "yeah, they had X. There is nothing we can do" Society may not want the police to do anything, but there aren't other options as of now. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:02:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The cop is trained to deal w/ criminals. She presented him w/ a deadly force situation at way too close a distance and from what I could see he had no backup. Less lethal isn't going to be much of an option there. If that was my mother or grandmother and I was stupid enough to call the guy w/ the gun to deal w/ the problem I'd call it my fault or unavoidable. Quit blaming the cop when he's the one that showed up when called and used the tools he has in his bag. It sounds like there was at least reported to be a child in the buildings still. Leaving isn't an option. I don't expect anyone to go hands on w/ someone carrying a pair of butcher knives. That little old lady can cut your throat just as easily as a 20 year old guy if you get close. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was always told the winner of a knife fight is the one that leaves in an ambulance instead of a bag. She got what could be expected in that situation. If you're going to wave knives at a cop expect to get shot at some point. I wouldn't expect anyone to go hands on w/ someone like that. Sucks for the family but if they didn't want her shot they should have dealt with it instead of calling the police. So the family, with no professional training, should have dealt with it instead of calling someone with professional training, and that would have prevented her from being shot? Read your own statement back to yourself, and pretend it was your mother or grandmother. The cop is trained to deal w/ criminals. She presented him w/ a deadly force situation at way too close a distance and from what I could see he had no backup. Less lethal isn't going to be much of an option there. If that was my mother or grandmother and I was stupid enough to call the guy w/ the gun to deal w/ the problem I'd call it my fault or unavoidable. Quit blaming the cop when he's the one that showed up when called and used the tools he has in his bag. It sounds like there was at least reported to be a child in the buildings still. Leaving isn't an option. I don't expect anyone to go hands on w/ someone carrying a pair of butcher knives. That little old lady can cut your throat just as easily as a 20 year old guy if you get close. I don't buy into that line of thinking. He had the ability to de-escalate, as well as the ability to to create distance. He chose to use lethal force as a first option Again, if it were your grandmother or mother, would your opinion be the same? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:07:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If that was information the shooter had, it's 100% going to be justified, legally speaking. And most likely qualified immunity, since it's not far off from the Kisela v. Hughes case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Look up the term polish hostage. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/BlazingSaddles If not violent and no crime has occurred other than this. Sure. Explain what would happen if This officer had left, and adult children, grandchild(supposedly still in house), or some other 3rd party had been stabbed/sliced/attacked? We have shoehorned LE into this. Edit: fix link to gif If the grandchild is in there, that's different. Other than that, its the family's problem. Was there anyone believed to be in the house? If grandma has her two knives in her house, and just wants to be left alone, and doesn't step outside, would it be unreasonable to back up and give it some more time before shooting her? Also, they blur it, so you can't see if she took any steps towards the officer, etc. It would be different if the cop was cornered in the house or something, like in that fairly recent shooting case with the old guy that I believe had made its way to GD.... Supposedly her grandkid was in the house. If that was information the shooter had, it's 100% going to be justified, legally speaking. And most likely qualified immunity, since it's not far off from the Kisela v. Hughes case. Did she threaten the child? Was there just cause to believe the child was in danger? Could a lesser use of force been implemented to diffuse the situation? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:08:05 PM EDT
[#24]
I think the cop was a fucking idiot and a typical hammer staring at a nail. He knew she was an old woman with dementia, so how does he approach her? He pulls a gun and starts screaming at her “drop the knife, drop the fucking knife” over and over as if Respect My Authoritah will somehow yield a positive outcome. He doesn’t try to use a calming voice or talk to her at all, just screaming commands with obscenities. He was just there to shoot the problem.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:08:51 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was there anyone believed to be in the house? If grandma has her two knives in her house, and just wants to be left alone, and doesn't step outside, would it be unreasonable to back up and give it some more time before shooting her? Also, they blur it, so you can't see if she took any steps towards the officer, etc. It would be different if the cop was cornered in the house or something, like in that fairly recent shooting case with the old guy that I believe had made its way to GD.... It's certainly not the outcome anyone would hope for, but I don't see a conviction for shooting given all the circumstances. He might get a talking to about using the word "fucking" in his commands because it is "obscene" and we live in clown world. my grandfather could be ornery before the dementia, thank god his dementia only involved him thinking the year was 1940, and talking about what he had for breakfast the day prior in 1940, and not "I don't remember who this person is, let me attack them real quick to figure it out." I think part of it was he moved in the 1960s and probably didn't recognize where he was, so he probably didn't get that "you're intruding in my home and I don't know you" response. I'm thinking that might have been what happened with this lady? But who knows. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:10:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And all the police are gonna do is ship them to the hospital where staff says "yeah, they had X. There is nothing we can do" Society may not want the police to do anything, but there aren't other options as of now. I can't disagree with the points you've made, but murder by government officials isn't the answer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:13:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the cop was a fucking idiot and a typical hammer staring at a nail. He knew she was an old woman with dementia, so how does he approach her? He pulls a gun and starts screaming at her “drop the knife, drop the fucking knife” over and over as if Respect My Authoritah will somehow yield a positive outcome. He doesn’t try to use a calming voice or talk to her at all, just screaming commands with obscenities. He was just there to shoot the problem. This. Ex-fucking-zactly! Guy was probably a hall monitor in school. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:14:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't buy into that line of thinking. He had the ability to de-escalate, as well as the ability to to create distance. He chose to use lethal force as a first option Again, if it were your grandmother or mother, would your opinion be the same? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I was always told the winner of a knife fight is the one that leaves in an ambulance instead of a bag. She got what could be expected in that situation. If you're going to wave knives at a cop expect to get shot at some point. I wouldn't expect anyone to go hands on w/ someone like that. Sucks for the family but if they didn't want her shot they should have dealt with it instead of calling the police. So the family, with no professional training, should have dealt with it instead of calling someone with professional training, and that would have prevented her from being shot? Read your own statement back to yourself, and pretend it was your mother or grandmother. The cop is trained to deal w/ criminals. She presented him w/ a deadly force situation at way too close a distance and from what I could see he had no backup. Less lethal isn't going to be much of an option there. If that was my mother or grandmother and I was stupid enough to call the guy w/ the gun to deal w/ the problem I'd call it my fault or unavoidable. Quit blaming the cop when he's the one that showed up when called and used the tools he has in his bag. It sounds like there was at least reported to be a child in the buildings still. Leaving isn't an option. I don't expect anyone to go hands on w/ someone carrying a pair of butcher knives. That little old lady can cut your throat just as easily as a 20 year old guy if you get close. I don't buy into that line of thinking. He had the ability to de-escalate, as well as the ability to to create distance. He chose to use lethal force as a first option Again, if it were your grandmother or mother, would your opinion be the same? Yes. My opinion would be the same regardless. If anyone is at fault IMO it's the family. The issue should have been either dealt with before it got to that point, or those big people we could see leaving the house should have dealt with it. When you call the guy w/ the gun to deal w/ the crazy person w/ a deadly weapon or weapons don't be surprised if they get shot. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:14:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @AZCOP. If you were the first on scene, how would you have tried to handle the situation? Honest question. No sarcasm. Everything is a situation. There is no one answer to this stuff. People who think there is always an answer for a positive outcome to every bad situation, have been sheltered from real life. Honest Answer: No sarcasm. Jay |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:16:19 PM EDT
[#30]
These women should have never called the police in this situation...this is the result.
2 grown ass women should have put on oven mittens and grabbed the knife from the frail elderly mentally ill woman and either settled her down and called an ambulance for her and then put her in a home if need be. Be it elderly, teens, drunk family, etc members, call the police and roll the dice on putting them in the morgue... this is reality. I would only call them as a last resort. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:16:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any officer that thinks this situation was handled properly and was a good shoot needs to resign. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:17:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nonsense. You have kitchen chairs and certainly the skills to dodge blades. 60 and 70 year olds with kitchen blades are a minor inconvenience at worst. We already know that a little knife fighting is something we all grew up doing in our teens. A trainer teaching defense training to SOF types posted an article in black belt several years ago. To educate on knife disarms. He gave a short, overweight, black female secretary a sharpie and told the special forces guys to disarm her. It didn't go well.. for the special forces guys. They rarely succeeded if at all an by the end of the training they were all marked up like a guy who passed out first at a party. Engaging with an attacker armed with a knife almost guarantees life changing injury. That woman's family had the same access to kitchen chairs and other tools to disarm the woman but didn't. They created the situation that necessitated ending her life. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:18:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And all the police are gonna do is ship them to the hospital where staff says "yeah, they had X. There is nothing we can do" Society may not want the police to do anything, but there aren't other options as of now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: No social worker is going to that call alone or even initially. No crisis team is walking up to that door on the initial call. Even after we make contact, social workers and 'crisis teams' won't and don't deal with Alzheimer's or Dementia patients. It's a chronic medical issue,, not a mental health issue. At best, they may help them get in touch with someone to assist, but it is my experience that the family has already been long dealing with the issue, and they'll be told it's on them to get hold of the specialist that is already dealing with the patient. Jay And all the police are gonna do is ship them to the hospital where staff says "yeah, they had X. There is nothing we can do" Society may not want the police to do anything, but there aren't other options as of now. The family is the option. They have to make a hard decision to put family into a specialized home for Dementia patients, but they can't bring themselves' to do it. Jay |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:19:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't disagree with the points you've made, but murder by government officials isn't the answer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And all the police are gonna do is ship them to the hospital where staff says "yeah, they had X. There is nothing we can do" Society may not want the police to do anything, but there aren't other options as of now. I can't disagree with the points you've made, but murder by government officials isn't the answer. Neither is calling the government for help. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:20:25 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The family is the option. They have to make a hard decision to put family into a specialized home for Dementia patients, but they can't bring themselves' to do it. Jay Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No social worker is going to that call alone or even initially. No crisis team is walking up to that door on the initial call. Even after we make contact, social workers and 'crisis teams' won't and don't deal with Alzheimer's or Dementia patients. It's a chronic medical issue,, not a mental health issue. At best, they may help them get in touch with someone to assist, but it is my experience that the family has already been long dealing with the issue, and they'll be told it's on them to get hold of the specialist that is already dealing with the patient. Jay And all the police are gonna do is ship them to the hospital where staff says "yeah, they had X. There is nothing we can do" Society may not want the police to do anything, but there aren't other options as of now. The family is the option. They have to make a hard decision to put family into a specialized home for Dementia patients, but they can't bring themselves' to do it. Jay Ever done that? It's not that easy from the families I've dealt with. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:20:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How would you have handled the situation? Remember there are 2 children still in the house according to the 911 call. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Any officer that thinks this situation was handled properly and was a good shoot needs to resign. Stop it: His mind is made up. Jay |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:21:56 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ever done that? Yes Next Question. Jay |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:23:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A trainer teaching defense training to SOF types posted an article in black belt several years ago. To educate on knife disarms. He gave a short, overweight, black female secretary a sharpie and told the special forces guys to disarm her. It didn't go well.. for the special forces guys. They rarely succeeded if at all an by the end of the training they were all marked up like a guy who passed out first at a party. Engaging with an attacker armed with a knife almost guarantees life changing injury. That woman's family had the same access to kitchen chairs and other tools to disarm the woman but didn't. They created the situation that necessitated ending her life. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Nonsense. You have kitchen chairs and certainly the skills to dodge blades. 60 and 70 year olds with kitchen blades are a minor inconvenience at worst. We already know that a little knife fighting is something we all grew up doing in our teens. A trainer teaching defense training to SOF types posted an article in black belt several years ago. To educate on knife disarms. He gave a short, overweight, black female secretary a sharpie and told the special forces guys to disarm her. It didn't go well.. for the special forces guys. They rarely succeeded if at all an by the end of the training they were all marked up like a guy who passed out first at a party. Engaging with an attacker armed with a knife almost guarantees life changing injury. That woman's family had the same access to kitchen chairs and other tools to disarm the woman but didn't. They created the situation that necessitated ending her life. That is a good example of the part I was taught where the winner of a knife fight is the one that leaves in an ambulance instead of a bag. Without backup where someone can operate the less lethal stuff shooting the crazy person w/ the knife who is way too close is the obvious answer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:24:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you for opening up an honest discussion on the subject. I agree with most of what you've said in the above comment. There probably wasn't anything anyone could have done in that moment. But a moment is just that, a moment. If the officer wasn't aggressive, the situation may have changed. He escalated immediately. It would have been a different scenario if the perp was a 20-50 year old male, but it wasn't. Officers as a whole need to change their way of thinking. Standard procedure does not apply in all situations. You aren't going to like this, but I will point it out: You wrote: "There probably wasn't anything anyone could have done in that moment. But a moment is just that, a moment.". That is the legal standard he will be judged by, what he perceived in that moment. Not in hind sight. Not what I believed watching the video. Not what you believed watching the video. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:26:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither is calling the government for help. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: And all the police are gonna do is ship them to the hospital where staff says "yeah, they had X. There is nothing we can do" Society may not want the police to do anything, but there aren't other options as of now. I can't disagree with the points you've made, but murder by government officials isn't the answer. Neither is calling the government for help. I think think we are saying the same thing here |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:26:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did she threaten the child? Was there just cause to believe the child was in danger? Could a lesser use of force been implemented to diffuse the situation? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Look up the term polish hostage. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/BlazingSaddles If not violent and no crime has occurred other than this. Sure. Explain what would happen if This officer had left, and adult children, grandchild(supposedly still in house), or some other 3rd party had been stabbed/sliced/attacked? We have shoehorned LE into this. Edit: fix link to gif If the grandchild is in there, that's different. Other than that, its the family's problem. Was there anyone believed to be in the house? If grandma has her two knives in her house, and just wants to be left alone, and doesn't step outside, would it be unreasonable to back up and give it some more time before shooting her? Also, they blur it, so you can't see if she took any steps towards the officer, etc. It would be different if the cop was cornered in the house or something, like in that fairly recent shooting case with the old guy that I believe had made its way to GD.... Supposedly her grandkid was in the house. If that was information the shooter had, it's 100% going to be justified, legally speaking. And most likely qualified immunity, since it's not far off from the Kisela v. Hughes case. Did she threaten the child? Was there just cause to believe the child was in danger? Could a lesser use of force been implemented to diffuse the situation? Deadly force is only justifiable if someone is in danger, so yeah obviously there has to be facts suggesting that much. If the kid is inside, but contained in a knife-proof protective space pod, then the child's presence couldn't be used as justification. In that case, the officer has to be in reasonable danger. If deadly force is justified, there's no obligation to use lesser force. I'm all for police accountability, but it's always going to be a difficult case where the shootee has not one, but two butcher knives. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:29:06 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That makes a bit more sense when viewed as a whole, but the lines you picked out of it doesn't bode well with me. Meh, my sigline, I'll use what I want as long as it is CoC compliant. To me it actually fits what GD was like when I chose it (back before this last election, when GD had multiple pretty good threads going simultaneously). It could also apply to any cop working a busy beat somewhere. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:30:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You aren't going to like this, but I will point it out: You wrote: "There probably wasn't anything anyone could have done in that moment. But a moment is just that, a moment.". That is the legal standard he will be judged by, what he perceived in that moment. Not in hind sight. Not what I believed watching the video. Not what you believed watching the video. Which is why I don't watch any video, especially mine. To use a term he used, it's irrelevant Jay |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:30:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: BTW, I've been here since '03. When I decided to pay for a membership is irrelevant. It matters about as much as my sigline. Btw, your avatar says you joined in 2022. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:34:04 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You aren't going to like this, but I will point it out: You wrote: "There probably wasn't anything anyone could have done in that moment. But a moment is just that, a moment.". That is the legal standard he will be judged by, what he perceived in that moment. Not in hind sight. Not what I believed watching the video. Not what you believed watching the video. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thank you for opening up an honest discussion on the subject. I agree with most of what you've said in the above comment. There probably wasn't anything anyone could have done in that moment. But a moment is just that, a moment. If the officer wasn't aggressive, the situation may have changed. He escalated immediately. It would have been a different scenario if the perp was a 20-50 year old male, but it wasn't. Officers as a whole need to change their way of thinking. Standard procedure does not apply in all situations. You aren't going to like this, but I will point it out: You wrote: "There probably wasn't anything anyone could have done in that moment. But a moment is just that, a moment.". That is the legal standard he will be judged by, what he perceived in that moment. Not in hind sight. Not what I believed watching the video. Not what you believed watching the video. You probably won't like this either, but I appreciate an open discussion. There was something that could have been done in that moment. He could have backed off and tried to calm her instead of immediately escalating and yelling at her with curse words. There was plenty of distance between them. She was not an immediate threat that would warrant the use of deadly force. Honestly, I don't give two fucks about what legal standards he will be judged by, because law does not equate to morals. Morally, he was wrong. He escalated the situation, and shot her without his life or wellbeing being in imminent danger. He is a murderer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:39:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes Next Question. Jay Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ever done that? Yes Next Question. Jay Did you shoot them. Just stop this thin blue line shit and use your moral guidance. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:40:39 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You probably won't like this either, but I appreciate an open discussion. There was something that could have been done in that moment. He could have backed off and tried to calm her instead of immediately escalating and yelling at her with curse words. There was plenty of distance between them. She was not an immediate threat that would warrant the use of deadly force. Honestly, I don't give two fucks about what legal standards he will be judged by, because law does not equate to morals. Morally, he was wrong. He escalated the situation, and shot her without his life or wellbeing being in imminent danger. He is a murderer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thank you for opening up an honest discussion on the subject. I agree with most of what you've said in the above comment. There probably wasn't anything anyone could have done in that moment. But a moment is just that, a moment. If the officer wasn't aggressive, the situation may have changed. He escalated immediately. It would have been a different scenario if the perp was a 20-50 year old male, but it wasn't. Officers as a whole need to change their way of thinking. Standard procedure does not apply in all situations. You aren't going to like this, but I will point it out: You wrote: "There probably wasn't anything anyone could have done in that moment. But a moment is just that, a moment.". That is the legal standard he will be judged by, what he perceived in that moment. Not in hind sight. Not what I believed watching the video. Not what you believed watching the video. You probably won't like this either, but I appreciate an open discussion. There was something that could have been done in that moment. He could have backed off and tried to calm her instead of immediately escalating and yelling at her with curse words. There was plenty of distance between them. She was not an immediate threat that would warrant the use of deadly force. Honestly, I don't give two fucks about what legal standards he will be judged by, because law does not equate to morals. Morally, he was wrong. He escalated the situation, and shot her without his life or wellbeing being in imminent danger. He is a murderer. If there was no immediate threat, then deadly force is not justified. You use that for your moral test, but that is the legal test as well. You are arguing facts - not law. That's why we have courthouses and jury trials. To decide disputes of fact. Would you prefer that some guy on the internet gets to do this instead? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:44:00 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It matters about as much as my sigline. Btw, your avatar says you joined in 2022. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:46:10 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suppose he could have also probably shattered both of her forearms with his asp, but again I'm sure the family wouldn't be happy with that outcome either. He was uncomfortably close for pepper spray, and the ladies from inside the house were clogging up the egress off the screened in porch. I guess the take away here is try to resolve stuff on your own before you call the police to come in to shoot your cognitively impaired, dual knife-wielding grandma? I'm not a cop, and not in the thin blue line crowd, I just don't understand what people expect is going to happen when you call the police? The police would be the absolute last people I called if someone I loved was acting in an irrational/possibly violent manner because of the possibility of exactly what happened in the video. Truth. What do you expect the cops to do when they encounter a person refusing to drop two knives that just threatened family? And do you expect the cop to change his response because the person is older than most knife wielding subjects? Fuck that, backing up would have been a great option but that obviously wasn't available. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/12/2022 3:46:32 PM EDT
[#50]
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
