Not exactly how that works, sport.

What happens when there is an actual intruder and you now let the owner go inside an unsecured house.  What happens when the homeowner is shot and killed?

Oh yeah, that's right.  Everybody cries out that the police didn't do their jobs and the agency gets sued.

And how far had they advanced into the room before they realized there was a dog that was now showing signs of aggression?  How the fuck does the homeowner know, he wasn't there was he?

LEO's as well as regular civilians are judged on their actions that occur in a shooting without the benefit of hindsight.  You are now making all of your conclusions with the benefit of hindsight.

Did the first officer attempt to back up but run into the second officer, making shooting of the dog more necessary?  Did any number of other things happen that made the shooting necessary?

Is there a possibility other options were available?  Sure.  Do we know if there were?  Nope.  To claim anything otherwise just further reaffirms your stereotype as a 13er.

For some reason you seem to think LEO's clear a room by standing in the doorway and peering in.  Oops, there's a dog in that room Bob, shut the door!  

They don't.  You get out of the fatal funnel as quick as possible.  Do you even know how far away they were from the door?  If not, how can you even make the statement you just made with a straight face?

You're being intentionally obtuse.  They don't know there is a dog or intruder in the room until they already enter.

Since they didn't know if the room contained an intruder or not, they "cleared" the fatal funnel into the room.  That is what you're always going to do while searching/clearing a structure you reasonably believe contains a criminal.

Once again, you misrepresent the situation to suit your needs.

Look carefully above my avatar and tell what it says...Then go back to page 4 and see what it says there....(Same thing it says on this page)

I seriously think you have a problem with attention to detail and reading comprehension.

Wow...just...wow...
Do you even have a dog?
I mean a real dog, not a Chihuahua or a Pekinese, or Pomeranian....
I'm talking about a dog that weighs in excess of 50lbs and chews on pig femurs for fun.

What are those long teeth in the corners of the dog's mouth called....the ones for ripping flesh and piercing into meat.....the ones that resemble knives without the serrations....

Arent they called.....CANINES?????

Yeah I alluded to that earlier on page 4 or so, but got ignored.

You don't go into a possible burglary with non lethal options in hand.

Two jittery guys were ambushed by a sleeping, middle-aged and over weight dog. They shot the folk's dog and house up but no bad guy. I suppose that family should be thankful and feel safer now, right? Job well done, right?

Guys, what are you defending?

ETA: Think about what was actually accomplished that day.

Common sense.

Sucks for the dog and the family but like I said the cops are in the right. So far the argument is they shouldn't have done their job.

Typical.

They are family.  

Their job? Common sense? Sucks for the dog and family? They posed the greatest danger to the homeowner's house and property, not some boogeyman. They shot their dog and house up with no boogeyman to show for it. Instead of defending this, you should be demanding some accountability.

Accountability for facts that are not known until after the event? Was there some kind of neon sign that was lit they ignored?

Family shouldn't have left the door open.

They went to a common alarm call and found a door open. Time to investigate, after all that's what cops do. Draw pistols due to a possible felony in progress. Clear house. Cme across  family dog in a room who barks and charges, necessitating them firing.

I can't find fault. The family will probably sue the city...big deal. Go away money will be laid and life will go on.

And maybe they'll shut the damn door next time

Hammer meet nail; it's the only solution for every problem.

To a boy with a hammer, every problem is a nail.

True. But if the dog lunged from the futon then shouldn't the shots be into the futon not the bottom of the baseboard?

And don't forget the only physical evidence left after the cleanup is two holes in the baseboard, which is inconsistent with the officers claim of the DPG standing on the futon growling.  Too me it sounds like the officers were both #1 and #2.

No, you never hear of the thousands of times per week officers encounter and don't shoot dogs.  It doesn't make news.

The same homeowner that wasn't on scene at the time of the shooting.

I would have to strongly agree. Bad news travels faster and farther than good news.

 

You know how I know you don't clear rooms for a living?

Yeah, that's it. I also agree. Same with all news stories, they promote the exceptions, not the average. My brother loves his dog like a kid. People get really close to their animals, and when they hear stories like this, is pisses them off. Without being in that situation I couldn't say if it was a good shoot on the dog or not. The worry is they are shooting it to reduce chaos from barking loud and obnoxious dog. The reality is different.

It sucks. Dogs are good things. You gotta protect yourself first as a LEO though. I do hope people put SOME value to k9 life as well as human. A pet is property, but its living so its more significant than a VCR. I know a lot of LEOs who are dog lovers.

Neither do the police, really.

Poor dog, good shoot.

I would imagine that a good bit of the non-military and/or non-LEO posters in this forum would shit themselves if they had to clear a house where there was a real chance of encountering a bad guy.

However it is you would be correct. Please educate me as to the process.

I'm supposed to pay attention to detail while you keep name calling and avoiding any discussion of the topic.



We won't make any progress until you can treat this objectively.
 

I'm not sure what point is trying to be made anyway, from hearing the lamentations of most police, they're tactical training is wholly inadequate. I doubt any officers that don't serve on some sort of tactical team have received any specialized room clearing training, unless they procured it themselves on their own dime.

CQB is also a very technical and perishable skill and taking a couple day course one time doesn't make one adequately trained.

LOL try again.  I've owned many large breed dogs including a pitbull that weighed nearly 100lbs.



My current dog is a GSD/Gldn Ret. mix that weighs about 80-90 lbs.  I've been bit by several dogs when I was young and delivered pizzas for a living.



Your overly dramatic description of dog teeth suggests you have never actually been bit.  Or you're behaving this way because my criticism of these cops threatens you in some way.
 

I expect others to do the same, so I should own up to my expectations: you have very reasonable points here. Not much I can say in response.

So watching a couple youtube videos and practicing at home would make the average joe close to the same level of training as a police officer from an underfunded agency?

I know a couple guys on a local swat team and they train a LOT according to them.

If they're on a full time tac team then maybe they do, then again maybe they don't, people like to exaggerate their training and experience so who knows.

Full time and legit. Them and the others I had a chance to meet were all in good shape from daily lifting and working out. The one made a comment about the other being too honest to which I kind of .

Too honest with regards to what exactly, tactics and such?

More so of speaking out when he was wrong yet could have gotten away with something. He was a pretty squared away and honest guy but to hear a fellow officer chide him about it caught me off guard.

That room was successfully cleared.

Not necessarily.

What you're not understanding is that the cops did not know they were responding to an open door instead of a legitimate burglary.

When you respond to a burglar alarm and find an open door, you have to assume and treat it as if it's a real no shit burglary.
When responding to a real no shit burglary and doing a building search, you're not going to have less lethal methods in hand.
You're going to have your duty weapon in your hand.

Because you are treating this as a no shit real burglary, you're going to spend as little time in a doorway as possible.
You're going to go through them as quickly as possible and get as deep into the room as quickly as possible.

This may mean you come across a dog in the residence.

A big dog from a breed that can be aggressive and territorial.

If you're in the room and confronted by a large breed dog that is from a breed that is known to be aggressive and territorial, and you have your pistol in your hand because your conducting a building search after responding to a burglar alarm and discovered an open door, and the dog then stands up and growls and lunges......

Odds are, that dog is going to get shot at and or shot.

You're not going to have time to run back to the door before the dog is on you, and you're not going to have time to holster your pistol and pull either your taser, or your pepper spray.

Tasers are difficult to use on dogs since the darts come out at an 8 degree vertical angle of separation.  The Taser is designed to be used primarily on bipedal humans  and to be used on animals that are approximately 2.5 feet in height and approximately 3.5 feet in length, you need to turn it sideways to get both darts in. If you don't get both darts in, you get no electrical current to the target and instead you have a very angry dog....ask me how I know.

I've also seen pepper spray fail to immediately stop a large determined dog from attacking. Additionally, you try not to use pepper spray inside a building if possible because that shit gets everywhere and affects everyone. So you could have the possibility of having a very pissed off dog and two blind officers in a building with a possible burglar inside.

Less lethal was not an option in this case.

Everyone can agree that the dog is shorter than the officers. Officers shooting at the dog from a higher position will put bullets in a downward trajectory. Bullets that miss or penetrate the dog completely will strike the wall/baseboard at a low angle.

This was a shitty situation. I like dogs. I have two big dogs myself and I love them.
But in this case I wouldn't blame the cops for shooting my dogs for attacking them/ strangers in the house, (that's what large aggressive territorial breed dogs do, and why people keep them), and I would not hesitate to shoot dogs attacking me in the same situation.

Some of the poo flingers on this board act as if the cops went to a random house,  found an open door and went inside with the intention of shooting someone's dog and house to hell and gone.

If that is in fact what actually happened, then I absolutely feel those cops should be fired, forced to pay damages for the house and the lost dog and should face jail time.



But I really, seriously, doubt that is what happened.

How many times you cleared buildings since you got out of the military?
I bet I've cleared more buildings this year due to legit burglaries than you have since you got out.

LOL....Said the guy who hasn't been objective since the thread started....
Pot/kettle, Glass houses & rocks, etc.....

I'm sure you have, since I've cleared zero since EAS. Assuming you're talking about real building clearing and not just practicing.

This is very much correct.

I've been bit before and criticism of my profession doesn't bother me.
You have not been criticizing though. You've been attacking from a zero knowledge standpoint.
It is readily apparent you don't know what you're talking about and what you are opining about as fact has basis in reality.

You are claiming that the cops should have done this, that, or the other thing, and when someone who knowledge of the subject comes along and tells you why they didn't or probably couldn't have done the things you are suggesting, you began to make personal attacks and to belittle them.

Then you try and turn this into me attacking you.

I don't tell you how to deliver pizzas because I don't know anything about it.
Were this a thread on pizza delivery tactics and methodology, then I would not state my opinions as fact.

Yes, real building clearing, not training.
I've only been able to attend one MACTAC training session this year.

Hey, I appreciate your response. It was candid and offered informative points. But the fact still remains; they responded to a call, and during the course of clearing they managed to shoot up a homeowner's house and kill the dog and have no bad guy to show for it. That doesn't strike you as fail?

ETA: When those you entrust pose a greater danger than the criminal element, some serious review on mindset needs to occur.

Fail because they don't have a bad guy to show for it?
They don't have a bad guy because it wasn't a burglary in the first place and they had no way of knowing that until after the homeowner returned.

Shooting the dog was far from ideal, but as a cop who is a former infantry Marine with CQB training, and has gone in and found a burglar hiding in a building, I don't see how they had any other choice.

I seriously believe that if not shooting the dog and not getting bit in the process (of not shooting the dog), was a viable option, that the dog would still be alive.

Sadly, this.

Not because there is no bad guy; that is additional bruising. It is a failure because they jumped into a hole they couldn't climb out of. How do you go into a room without a plan to get out? Two armed officers were ambushed by an old overweight dog.

ETA: I apologize for being a bit facetious but push come to shove, you have to wonder if you're safer by not calling 911.

Gun is already up, "sight picture" is where ever you are looking in CQB (if you're trained correctly and holding the gun where it should be) and you're already 3-4 feet into the room in the first 1/4 second. Even on "slow and methodical" searches you clear the "funnel" quickly and get out of the bullet trap.

I know and have worked with a lot of cops.....thousands. Apart from one that was a degenerate of a human being none of them liked killing dogs. Also, none of them liked getting dog bit either.


Regardless of what GD thinks we don't look forward to shooting dogs.


Oh yeah, last thing....NEVER turn your back on any dog especially an aggressive one. If the dog is on the fence about attacking you or not, he'll quickly make a decision when you turn your back to him ....go ahead try it. You always face the dog and back out slowly not quickly.

7 shots, 5 hit the dog, isolated to one room.  This is not the definition of "shoot up a homeowner's house".  This is hyperbole.