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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:26:15 AM EDT
[#1]
No.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:28:35 AM EDT
[#2]
Plastic technology was still awful in the 70s
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:28:54 AM EDT
[#3]
OK I am convinced.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:29:56 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK I am convinced. I agree as well. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:30:50 AM EDT
[#5]
Maybe a bakelite type material with metal rail inserts molded into it.
Didn't really matter. There were a ton of available machinists and raw steel to be had. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:32:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: 4. Would they even break away from traditional materials like steel? Pride in craftsmanship over utility? As far as craftsmanship, I think just about every major player in the war heavily compromised on that by the time it was over. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:37:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Yes, it would have been technologically possible - what was needed was the inventive spark and the will. Nylon was developed in the 1930s and was used in other wartime applications, notably for parachute cord. Injection molding of thermoplastic was less mature but akin to casting that was well known for manufacturing products using thermosetting resins like Bakelite, which was used for other gun parts during WW2. The metal parts of a Glock can be made using traditional machining and stamping processes.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:37:57 AM EDT
[#8]
We had enough just making gas and diesel at the time. The man (Dr. A. P. Beutel) that became known as the father of the petrochemical industry on the gulf coast didn't come to TX till 1940 for Dow Chemical, until then it was just refining on the gulf coast. Making gas was the extent of a lot of what we used oil for at the time.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:38:40 AM EDT
[#9]
They might have been able to make a glass reinforced nylon frame that would work, but if would not have been anywhere near as good as modern polymers.
Now taking the standard Glock parts and putting them inside a metal frame would have worked and been a good solution to fabrication time and skilled labor requirements. Rock Island is making that exact thing right now and the one I shot seemed pretty good. Basically a metal framed gen 3 Glock 17 with a grip that feels more like a Sig 22X series pistol. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:40:20 AM EDT
[#10]
the simple fact we have it now and they didn't tells the story. Took generations of learned knowledge and experiments to get us to this particular point in time.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:42:51 AM EDT
[#11]
Useable, probably yes. As good as a modern polymer pistol, no.
They probably would have been much heavier and less durable than a Glock frame. Steel or aluminum alloys would have been the right choice in that era. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:46:55 AM EDT
[#12]
Micarta existed at the time.
You could have machined frames out of micarta that would have worked, but it's not something that could have been molded. If you've ever had knife handles or gun grip panels made of canvas micarta, it's a strong, lightweight composite material. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:49:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the simple fact we have it now and they didn't tells the story. Took generations of learned knowledge and experiments to get us to this particular point in time. I think stealthy kind of addressed that with the "inventive spark and will" comment |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 1:56:15 AM EDT
[#14]
If all the advances in polymers that made polymer frame guns possible in the 80s had been achieved a few decades earlier, sure.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:12:33 AM EDT
[#15]
Not to current standards firing thousands of rounds of high-pressure ammo, but for lower standards, say airborne troops needing a lightweight sidearm for backup use, absolutely.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:14:41 AM EDT
[#16]
Nylon 60 was one of the first really viable platforms, and that was blowback .22. Zero chance you would have ANYTHING like we have today. Heck, take a look at a 1980 era Gen 1 Glock 17 and think about how far we've come since then.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:18:20 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not to current standards firing thousands of rounds of high-pressure ammo, but for lower standards, say airborne troops needing a lightweight sidearm for backup use, absolutely. I would think that with even lower strength in the frame it could be mostly overcome by something like a removable stamped rail supported by replaceable rubber bushings. ETA: not sure if adding fiber into things for strength was common |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:29:44 AM EDT
[#18]
No.
Not even close to appropriate materials. I think it was not until 1950 that Colt contracted with ALCOA to forge aluminum frames for the Commander series. At 27 Ounces empty, the gun was revolutionary for it's time. There was no plastic available at the time capable of substitution for an aluminum framed pistol. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:37:36 AM EDT
[#19]
Polymer synthesis, production, and modifiers for UV, impact, etc.... were not sufficient back then.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:38:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Yes, it could have been done.
I suspect that Glocks are basically made from Nylon 6, or at least you could make a strong polymer pistol from it, and that was invented in 1938. Nylon 66 is from 1935. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:39:17 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nylon 60 was one of the first really viable platforms, and that was blowback .22. Zero chance you would have ANYTHING like we have today. Heck, take a look at a 1980 era Gen 1 Glock 17 and think about how far we've come since then. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:46:45 AM EDT
[#22]
The biggest obstacle would have been convincing the military and government leaders to go that route.
Forward thinkers had a difficult enough time convincing leaders to build weapons out of steel stampings during the war instead of forged steel. Imagine trying to convince them to build weapons out of plastic. I love the Garand and absolutely think it helped win the war but imagine instead if you were able to equip every US soldier with an StG 42. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:47:19 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, it could have been done. I suspect that Glocks are basically made from Nylon 6, or at least you could make a strong polymer pistol from it, and that was invented in 1938. Nylon 66 is from 1935. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:52:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Differential scanning calorimetry wasn't invented until the 1960s. DSC is very helpful in determining how crystalline a polymer is for both synthesis and audit basis in production. Short of a lot of destructive batch testing it would be very hard to make good plastics without being able to efficiently determine % crystallization. I'm sticking with it could never happen in the 1930s or 1940s.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 2:56:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When were modifiers for UV (metallic based not simply carbon black), impact, strength, etc... invented and available for large scale production? The first date of synthesis is very different from the more mature nylons we have today. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:14:43 AM EDT
[#26]
Germans used bakelite for the mp40 lower.
But it also has a steel subreciever for all the structure. I don't think it was a revolutionary concept whenever polymer framed pistols came out, probably been experimented for a long time, only materially feasible in the 80's. Was just a matter of glock being in the right spot and industry at the right time, plus getting lucky with a good team of engineers. If anything were to be "revolutionary" and technologically feasible at the time for handguns it would actually probably have been a stabilized wooden framed pistol before any polymer. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:27:09 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Germans used bakelite for the mp40 lower. But it also has a steel subreciever for all the structure. I don't think it was a revolutionary concept whenever polymer framed pistols came out, probably been experimented for a long time, only materially feasible in the 80's. Was just a matter of glock being in the right spot and industry at the right time, plus getting lucky with a good team of engineers. If anything were to be "revolutionary" and technologically feasible at the time for handguns it would actually probably have been a stabilized wooden framed pistol before any polymer. That is a damn innovative concept for the time. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:30:12 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a damn innovative concept for the time.  I mean is it really  They had "upgraded" from wood to steel, so nobody was probably thinking about going backwards per say. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:32:39 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Germans used bakelite for the mp40 lower. But it also has a steel subreciever for all the structure. I don't think it was a revolutionary concept whenever polymer framed pistols came out, probably been experimented for a long time, only materially feasible in the 80's. Was just a matter of glock being in the right spot and industry at the right time, plus getting lucky with a good team of engineers. If anything were to be "revolutionary" and technologically feasible at the time for handguns it would actually probably have been a stabilized wooden framed pistol before any polymer.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:34:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It wasn't completely polymer for the lower. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/346870/H2863-L311280805_jpg-3082539.JPG Reading is hard  I can bold " But it also has a steel subreciever for all the structure." for you next time if you would like? |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:39:50 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reading is hard I can bold " But it also has a steel subreciever for all the structure." for you next time if you would like? |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:40:41 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://media.mwstatic.com/product-images/src/Primary/520/520676.jpg?imwidth=480 I mean is it really They had "upgraded" from wood to steel, so nobody was probably thinking about going backwards per say. I was thinking more in the form of internal rail pinned secured in place with a P365 type FCS, ribbed strengthening strips, different type grips that dovetail in frame so single frame would not be a huge one piece of wood but rather two, and could use lamination too type thing. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:45:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was thinking more in the form of internal rail pinned secured in place with a P365 type FCS, ribbed strengthening strips, different type grips that dovetail in frame so single frame would not be a huge one piece of wood but rather two, and could use lamination too type thing. I agree thats along the lines of what would have to be done to achieve a semi auto wood framed gun, but i'm just empathizing with how absurd that would be at the time to most, seeming like a step back rather than a step forward. Also the scale of production for handguns during ww2 was not nearly as important as the cost savings for rifles or submachine guns, so the perceived reliability risk would not be worth the development, let alone the fitting and skill needed to make something like that. However if there was any nation that would have done it, my money would be on Germany no doubt. With the changes to making the mp41 to save steel over wood, and the development of laminate stocks they were starting to weigh the cost of wood over steel. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:48:34 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I misread it, I though you meant the upper was metal. I still think polymers weren't advanced enough until the 1970s at least to do what we have today. Just giving you shit. I agree they were not advanced enough, I only brought up that point of bakelite to show they at least could manufacture plastics accurately on a large issued scale. But they still required steel reinforcement and could not stand alone. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:50:08 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree thats along the lines of what would have to be done to achieve a semi auto wood framed gun, but i'm just empathizing with how absurd that would be at the time to most, seeming like a step back rather than a step forward. Also the scale of production for handguns during ww2 was not nearly as important as the cost savings for rifles or submachine guns, so the perceived reliability risk would not be worth the development, let alone the fitting and skill needed to make something like that. However if there was any nation that would have done it, my money would be on Germany no doubt. With the changes to making the mp41 to save steel over wood, and the development of laminate stocks they were starting to weigh the cost of wood over steel. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:50:27 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just giving you shit. I agree they were not advanced enough, I only brought up that point of bakelite to show they at least could manufacture plastics accurately on a large issued scale. But they still required steel reinforcement and could not stand alone. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:57:17 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The wood stock on the M1 was one of the most expensive components to the rifle. You also can't grow trees any faster. Yes that's true for the US logistics chain during the time, and probably early war Germany, but later as steel mills would get bombed to shit it became much more favored for the cost of wood. Even though the man hour cost of wood was still expensive, it was atleast feasible at all times. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 3:57:30 AM EDT
[#38]
It still kind of surprises me no one has made a G10 pistol frame. Which was invented before the 1911 by the same guy who created Bakelite.
The material technology was there. The manufacturing acceptance was not. G10 is about as close to forged plastic as you can get but was used as an insulator despite being one of the strongest plastics ever made. It would likely still require steel frame inserts but they could have likely pressed a stamped shell in for that. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 4:01:30 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It still kind of surprises me no one has made a G10 pistol frame. Which was invented before the 1911 by the same guy who created Bakelite. The material technology was there. The manufacturing acceptance was not. Great, now we can add more G's to the name. I await the G10 G43x Gen5 Mos |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 4:12:48 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It still kind of surprises me no one has made a G10 pistol frame. Which was invented before the 1911 by the same guy who created Bakelite. The material technology was there. The manufacturing acceptance was not. G10 is about as close to forged plastic as you can get but was used as an insulator despite being one of the strongest plastics ever made. It would likely still require steel frame inserts but they could have likely pressed a stamped shell in for that. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 4:15:15 AM EDT
[#41]
The best polymer pistol they could have hoped for in the late 1930's would be akin to a Hi-Point C9.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 4:25:21 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I'm not mistaken, bakelite was already used on several guns back then. I don't know about the viability of a frame made out of one though. As far as craftsmanship, I think just about every major player in the war heavily compromised on that by the time it was over. |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 5:57:37 AM EDT
[#43]
Delete
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Posted: 1/5/2024 6:00:35 AM EDT
[#44]
No way.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 6:15:38 AM EDT
[#45]
The key is glass filled nylon. Until then, plastics were pretty brittle relatively speaking. I think if they tried they could have developed one in the 40’s, but it probably would have been shitty, just like all the pre glock pistols.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 7:31:43 AM EDT
[#46]
Steel frame Glock would have been possible, and would have still been a major improvement in production time / cost over the 1911 or High Power.
  Possibly could have had a Zinc Diecast frame with steel inserts? |
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Posted: 1/5/2024 7:36:46 AM EDT
[#47]
Back then I think all they had was bakelite used in low stress parts like grips. It may have only been the germans using it in the MP40 and P38. That could be a good NPR story: "Plastic firearms as carried by police have a troubling, nazi past".
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:07:35 AM EDT
[#48]
Bakelite thread
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:25:30 AM EDT
[#49]
No, the plastic technology wasn't there yet.
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Posted: 1/5/2024 8:25:37 AM EDT
[#50]
No. "But bakelite" you can make grip scales, maybe a buttstock out of it, but nothing that has to handle any stress
You can leave a modern polymer gun in a jar of 100% deet and nothing will happen to it. But a drop of deet will melt through say, a steyr aug mag from the 80's. Imagine what would happen to polymer from the 40's? |
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