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Posted: 1/6/2014 1:56:32 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So Custer was a Democrat, then?  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Under estimated the number of warriors against him. And their willingness to attack with fury. Over estimated his ability. gd So Custer was a Democrat, then? He still votes a straight D ticket. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 1:59:41 PM EDT
[#2]
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I have seen paintings made by some of the Indians who were there and they show many soldiers with many, many arrows sticking all over them. It must have been horrible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He didn't choose, he was ORDERED to use pack mules rather than wagon train by an idiot. He could have used gatling guns from wagon trains. And done what with them? The Indians surrounded his troops in gullies and ravines and showered them with arrows shot at a high angle. They stood to shoot his troops and then ducked down and moved. Gatling guns would have been worthless in such a fight. See ? Even you start acknowledging that it might not have been "winchesters and Henry's" to win the fight that day.. 
There isn't much you can do even behind the cover of your dead mount, if arrows are raining down the sky....  I have seen paintings made by some of the Indians who were there and they show many soldiers with many, many arrows sticking all over them. It must have been horrible. Yup A bad day to be cav....
But we should also remember that the native were also prone to stick arrows and spears into dead bodies, alongside with the ritual mutilatioms. It's really difficult to understand what really went down that day, even from first hand accounts. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:02:10 PM EDT
[#3]
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So, is anyone gonna bring up that Custer was the primary reason why the attempted cavalry flanking during Pickett's Charge failed? It's no surprise that the "hero" of Gettysburg during the War of Northern Aggression wore all black.  Somebody in the last Custer thread brought up that he saved the entire battle for the Union. Gunnerpalace's face:
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:15:28 PM EDT
[#4]
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something else to think about was that alot of the evidence had been scavenged over the years by Native American and Historians alike. I've heard different ideas on the subject. I know that the Native Americans would have cherry picked anything they could as "Big Medicine" from the field. those items ( and empty hulls would certainly count) would have been very highly regarded for fetishes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's a myth that the Lakota and Cheyenne all had repeaters. They had a few for sure, but most had muzzle loaders, bows and melee weapons not buying that. it was common for all those Natives to have had the technology at that time in the west. "There were 2,361 cartridges, cases and bullets recovered from the entire battlefield, which reportedly came from 45 different firearms types (including the Army Springfields and Colts, of course) and represented at least 371 individual guns. The evidence indicated that the Indians used Sharps, Smith & Wessons, Evans, Henrys, Winchesters, Remingtons, Ballards, Maynards, Starrs, Spencers, Enfields and Forehand & Wadworths, as well as Colts and Springfields of other calibers. There was evidence of 69 individual Army Springfields on Custer's Field (the square-mile section where Custer's five companies died), but there was also evidence of 62 Indian .44-caliber Henry repeaters and 27 Sharps .50-caliber weapons. In all, on Custer's Field there was evidence of at least 134 Indian firearms versus 81 for the soldiers. It appears that the Army was outgunned as well as outnumbered." Battle of the Little Bighorn: Were the Weapons the Deciding Factor Yep. It amazes me that people still argue after that report was done. something else to think about was that alot of the evidence had been scavenged over the years by Native American and Historians alike. I've heard different ideas on the subject. I know that the Native Americans would have cherry picked anything they could as "Big Medicine" from the field. those items ( and empty hulls would certainly count) would have been very highly regarded for fetishes. I have to question how accurate the report is for the same reason. Not that the numbers in the report are not accurate for the weapons left on the battlefield. But how many battlefield pick-ups were removed from the scene by the Indian fighters before Army investigators did their assessment? I'm sure that those fighters who were doing battlefield pick-ups would have gone for the latest and best weapons that were available among those left in the field. Hence a probably under-representation of those weapons in the Army's assessment, leading to a lower figure for the number of repeaters thought involved in the battle. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:53:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have seen paintings made by some of the Indians who were there and they show many soldiers with many, many arrows sticking all over them. It must have been horrible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He didn't choose, he was ORDERED to use pack mules rather than wagon train by an idiot. He could have used gatling guns from wagon trains. And done what with them? The Indians surrounded his troops in gullies and ravines and showered them with arrows shot at a high angle. They stood to shoot his troops and then ducked down and moved. Gatling guns would have been worthless in such a fight. ISee ? Even you start acknowledging that it might not have been "winchesters and Henry's" to win the fight that day..
There isn't much you can do even behind the cover of your dead mount, if arrows are raining down the sky.... I have seen paintings made by some of the Indians who were there and they show many soldiers with many, many arrows sticking all over them. It must have been horrible. have been told they are called Custer Cactus. now- the reality of it is that many of those with arrows impaling them also had GSW and the shooting of arrows into corpses as well as other physical damages was spiritual in nature and the desecration to inhibit the enemy in the next life. if one arrow is good- 20 is better. also the raining of arrows was psychological as anything else. nothing but pure panic. most of those had wounds from many weapons. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:55:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have to question how accurate the report is for the same reason. Not that the numbers in the report are not accurate for the weapons left on the battlefield. But how many battlefield pick-ups were removed from the scene by the Indian fighters before Army investigators did their assessment? I'm sure that those fighters who were doing battlefield pick-ups would have gone for the latest and best weapons that were available among those left in the field. Hence a probably under-representation of those weapons in the Army's assessment, leading to a lower figure for the number of repeaters thought involved in the battle. Considering the forensic stuff wasn't done until the mid to late 1980s...I'd say quite a few.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:07:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He got what he deserved. This. Sorry to say given Custer's commision as an officer in the US military, yet he deserved what he got. His men, not so much .....the poor bastards. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:28:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Dont know the truth in it but ive got a supposed family member from his regy that was in the b4ig for being drunk that survived
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:31:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Crappy gun, should have had repeaters |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:32:50 PM EDT
[#10]
Sure helped with spurring on hatred of the red man and taking of the black hills.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:36:40 PM EDT
[#11]
How many people know there were 3 Custer brothers KIA? Or that Capt. Tom Custer is the only double MOH recipient of the Civil War.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:46:41 PM EDT
[#12]
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Someone needs to photochop Custer making his last stand with with a Rhodesian FAL. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There is no way this is a saigaman thread. He mentions a documentary, yet there is no YouTube link? Where is saigaman, and what have you done with him?  Someone needs to photochop Custer making his last stand with with a Rhodesian FAL. And a Sioux warrior carrying a G3.... Well, one was at the gun show last weekend, anyway.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 6:54:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He didn't choose, he was ORDERED to use pack mules rather than wagon train by an idiot. He could have used gatling guns from wagon trains. If the 7th Cavalry had attempted to bring the Gatling guns and used supply wagons as you suggest, the regiment would have been slowed to a crawl and they never would have contacted the Indians at all. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 7:06:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: not buying that. it was common for all those Natives to have had the technology at that time in the west. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's a myth that the Lakota and Cheyenne all had repeaters. They had a few for sure, but most had muzzle loaders, bows and melee weapons not buying that. it was common for all those Natives to have had the technology at that time in the west. Others were using the wrong ammo in their rifles, had rifles with catastrophic failures, etc. But there were enough of them that Custer's command was not going to win, it was only a matter of how many could be saved. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 7:07:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Bad intel on the number of hostile Indians doomed Custer as much as the 7th Cav's Springfields.
Also, Custer was no Crook. |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 7:11:20 PM EDT
[#16]
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"Custer was a pussy, sir." 
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Posted: 1/6/2014 7:20:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Reportedly, his Indian scout Mitch Bouyer told him he had never seen that many indians, and the other scouts concurred that there were too many Scout: "What you mean WE, paleface?" |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 7:21:14 PM EDT
[#18]
As SgtMaj Plumley said in the movie "Custer was a pussy"!
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Posted: 1/6/2014 10:23:06 PM EDT
[#19]
Custer was a scapegoat . For shit government policies .
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/6/2014 10:24:51 PM EDT
[#20]
If only Custer had told the Indians about the new casino they would have gotten drunk and waited on the checks to roll in.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 3:04:27 AM EDT
[#21]
When the US Army went to Wounded Knee, they traded their Gatling guns for Hotchkiss guns
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the 7th Cavalry had attempted to bring the Gatling guns and used supply wagons as you suggest, the regiment would have been slowed to a crawl and they never would have contacted the Indians at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He didn't choose, he was ORDERED to use pack mules rather than wagon train by an idiot. He could have used gatling guns from wagon trains. If the 7th Cavalry had attempted to bring the Gatling guns and used supply wagons as you suggest, the regiment would have been slowed to a crawl and they never would have contacted the Indians at all. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:03:55 AM EDT
[#22]
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How many people know there were 3 Custer brothers KIA? Or that Capt. Tom Custer is the only double MOH recipient of the Civil War. Tom Custer was the only Army double recipient. There are two others but they are Navy. It was also the only decoration available during the Civil War. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:07:46 AM EDT
[#23]
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Over confidence. This......and not doing enough reconnaissance to see that he was vastly outnumbered. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:12:50 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOMG!........It will be this country's "Last Stand" if.....SHE  .....gets to the Oval Office!
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:17:41 AM EDT
[#25]
There are supposed to be two to four MIAs from the 7th Cavalry as well as the missing payroll (coin).
Mysteriously, one Trapdoor rifle turned up in Arizona (Ser #388) and according to the story, a ragged soldier stopped a cart driven by a Mexican. The Mexican consented to allowing the soldier to ride on the cart. The soldier placed his belongings (a box) and hopped aboard. Later, the Mexican killed the soldier and upon opening the box, discovered $14,000. He buried it but when he went back, found another family camping over the spot. He didn't want to alert them to his treasure or draw their attention so he left. When he returned, he found the family had dug up the spot and removed the treasure. All he got from the soldier then was the Trapdoor rifle (Ser #388). Could the soldier have been a survivor of the 7th? The serial # is supposed to be within the range of those issued to the 7th. Said Trapdoor (#388) was acquired by an Arizonan who later cracked the wrist by breaking the gun over an Apache's head. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:24:37 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To think after the civil war the US army dumped Spencer rifles and went with a trapdoor which was a huge step backwards . The Gatling guns could have changed the war in the area of Custer potentially would have been slower moving and made different decisions . No army in the world at that time was using repeating rifles in any numbers. The Spencer was too short on range for general issue; it was essentially the submachine of its day. Likewise with the Henry and Winchesters. Repeaters using rifle caliber ammunition were at least ten years in the future. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:31:08 AM EDT
[#27]
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There is no way this is a saigaman thread. He mentions a documentary, yet there is no YouTube link? Where is saigaman, and what have you done with him? I was thinking the same thing.
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:35:51 AM EDT
[#28]
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No army in the world at that time was using repeating rifles in any numbers. The Spencer was too short on range for general issue; it was essentially the submachine of its day. Likewise with the Henry and Winchesters. Repeaters using rifle caliber ammunition were at least ten years in the future. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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To think after the civil war the US army dumped Spencer rifles and went with a trapdoor which was a huge step backwards . The Gatling guns could have changed the war in the area of Custer potentially would have been slower moving and made different decisions . No army in the world at that time was using repeating rifles in any numbers. The Spencer was too short on range for general issue; it was essentially the submachine of its day. Likewise with the Henry and Winchesters. Repeaters using rifle caliber ammunition were at least ten years in the future. The Army was more concerned about the men wasting ammunition. That's why there's a magazine cut off on cartridge guns up to the 1903 Springfield. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 10:55:03 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tom Custer was the only Army double recipient. There are two others but they are Navy. It was also the only decoration available during the Civil War. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How many people know there were 3 Custer brothers KIA? Or that Capt. Tom Custer is the only double MOH recipient of the Civil War. Tom Custer was the only Army double recipient. There are two others but they are Navy. It was also the only decoration available during the Civil War. And as such it was sometimes awarded for things that might barely rate a Bronze Star today, or perhaps rate a lower medal today. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 12:34:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the 7th Cavalry had attempted to bring the Gatling guns and used supply wagons as you suggest, the regiment would have been slowed to a crawl and they never would have contacted the Indians at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He didn't choose, he was ORDERED to use pack mules rather than wagon train by an idiot. He could have used gatling guns from wagon trains. If the 7th Cavalry had attempted to bring the Gatling guns and used supply wagons as you suggest, the regiment would have been slowed to a crawl and they never would have contacted the Indians at all. Custer was not supposed to contact the Indians until the other two columns arrived on the scene. He did not know that one of the columns commanded by General Crook had retreated after a battle with Crazy Horse 9 days earlier. He still should have waited for Generals Terry and Gibbons who were about a day away. He exhibited the same overconfidence that led Captain William Fetterman to his death in December 1866. Fetterman once boasted that with 80 troopers he could defeat the whole Souix Nation. He rode out of Fort Kearny one day with 80 troopers on December 21, 1866 and never came back. Like Custer he also disobeyed orders. He ventured further from the fort that his orders allowed him to go. Interstate 90 passes the sites of both battles. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 1:09:16 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are supposed to be two to four MIAs from the 7th Cavalry as well as the missing payroll (coin). Mysteriously, one Trapdoor rifle turned up in Arizona (Ser #388) and according to the story, a ragged soldier stopped a cart driven by a Mexican. The Mexican consented to allowing the soldier to ride on the cart. The soldier placed his belongings (a box) and hopped aboard. Later, the Mexican killed the soldier and upon opening the box, discovered $14,000. He buried it but when he went back, found another family camping over the spot. He didn't want to alert them to his treasure or draw their attention so he left. When he returned, he found the family had dug up the spot and removed the treasure. All he got from the soldier then was the Trapdoor rifle (Ser #388). Could the soldier have been a survivor of the 7th? The serial # is supposed to be within the range of those issued to the 7th. Said Trapdoor (#388) was acquired by an Arizonan who later cracked the wrist by breaking the gun over an Apache's head. I've heard of many rifles with Ser# from those supposedly handed out to the 7th and I just assumed that most were Native pick ups in the aftermath. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 1:12:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Custer was not supposed to contact the Indians until the other two columns arrived on the scene. He did not know that one of the columns commanded by General Crook had retreated after a battle with Crazy Horse 9 days earlier. He still should have waited for Generals Terry and Gibbons who were about a day away. He exhibited the same overconfidence that led Captain William Fetterman to his death in December 1866. Fetterman once boasted that with 80 troopers he could defeat the whole Souix Nation. He rode out of Fort Kearny one day with 80 troopers on December 21, 1866 and never came back. Like Custer he also disobeyed orders. He ventured further from the fort that his orders allowed him to go. Interstate 90 passes the sites of both battles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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He didn't choose, he was ORDERED to use pack mules rather than wagon train by an idiot. He could have used gatling guns from wagon trains. If the 7th Cavalry had attempted to bring the Gatling guns and used supply wagons as you suggest, the regiment would have been slowed to a crawl and they never would have contacted the Indians at all. Custer was not supposed to contact the Indians until the other two columns arrived on the scene. He did not know that one of the columns commanded by General Crook had retreated after a battle with Crazy Horse 9 days earlier. He still should have waited for Generals Terry and Gibbons who were about a day away. He exhibited the same overconfidence that led Captain William Fetterman to his death in December 1866. Fetterman once boasted that with 80 troopers he could defeat the whole Souix Nation. He rode out of Fort Kearny one day with 80 troopers on December 21, 1866 and never came back. Like Custer he also disobeyed orders. He ventured further from the fort that his orders allowed him to go. Interstate 90 passes the sites of both battles. it would not have mattered. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 1:14:58 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Custer was not supposed to contact the Indians until the other two columns arrived on the scene. He did not know that one of the columns commanded by General Crook had retreated after a battle with Crazy Horse 9 days earlier. He still should have waited for Generals Terry and Gibbons who were about a day away. He exhibited the same overconfidence that led Captain William Fetterman to his death in December 1866. Fetterman once boasted that with 80 troopers he could defeat the whole Souix Nation. He rode out of Fort Kearny one day with 80 troopers on December 21, 1866 and never came back. Like Custer he also disobeyed orders. He ventured further from the fort that his orders allowed him to go. Interstate 90 passes the sites of both battles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He didn't choose, he was ORDERED to use pack mules rather than wagon train by an idiot. He could have used gatling guns from wagon trains. If the 7th Cavalry had attempted to bring the Gatling guns and used supply wagons as you suggest, the regiment would have been slowed to a crawl and they never would have contacted the Indians at all. Custer was not supposed to contact the Indians until the other two columns arrived on the scene. He did not know that one of the columns commanded by General Crook had retreated after a battle with Crazy Horse 9 days earlier. He still should have waited for Generals Terry and Gibbons who were about a day away. He exhibited the same overconfidence that led Captain William Fetterman to his death in December 1866. Fetterman once boasted that with 80 troopers he could defeat the whole Souix Nation. He rode out of Fort Kearny one day with 80 troopers on December 21, 1866 and never came back. Like Custer he also disobeyed orders. He ventured further from the fort that his orders allowed him to go. Interstate 90 passes the sites of both battles. The Natives had discovered that wagon train when one of the wagons had broke down behind the colum. I think Custer felt that he needed to press the situation because he was afraid of the Natives being alerted and moving camp. The Battle of Rosebud was another tactical master piece of Crazy Horse. The Battle of the Rosebud is about 40 miles away from the Little Big Horn and chances are that Crook would have either run into the camp first or waited for Custer had he not been turned back. If the Natives knew Custer or Crook were in the area I doubt they would have waited around a couple of days to allow reinforcements to arrive. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 1:22:15 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No army in the world at that time was using repeating rifles in any numbers. The Spencer was too short on range for general issue; it was essentially the submachine of its day. Likewise with the Henry and Winchesters. Repeaters using rifle caliber ammunition were at least ten years in the future. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
To think after the civil war the US army dumped Spencer rifles and went with a trapdoor which was a huge step backwards . The Gatling guns could have changed the war in the area of Custer potentially would have been slower moving and made different decisions . No army in the world at that time was using repeating rifles in any numbers. The Spencer was too short on range for general issue; it was essentially the submachine of its day. Likewise with the Henry and Winchesters. Repeaters using rifle caliber ammunition were at least ten years in the future. The Turks used Winchesters against the Russians at Plevna in 1871. The Swiss had the Vetterli bolt action repeater in service about the same time. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 1:30:52 PM EDT
[#35]
As one Sgt. was overheard to say "I don't know what got into those Indians, they were ok at the dance last night".
 
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Posted: 1/7/2014 2:07:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Remember the Indians were fighting for their land, wife's, and their children. Custer was fighting for glory, his men for a few dollars a month.
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Posted: 1/7/2014 2:13:02 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 1/7/2014 3:01:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Custer was not supposed to contact the Indians until the other two columns arrived on the scene. He did not know that one of the columns commanded by General Crook had retreated after a battle with Crazy Horse 9 days earlier. He still should have waited for Generals Terry and Gibbons who were about a day away. He exhibited the same overconfidence that led Captain William Fetterman to his death in December 1866. Fetterman once boasted that with 80 troopers he could defeat the whole Souix Nation. He rode out of Fort Kearny one day with 80 troopers on December 21, 1866 and never came back. Like Custer he also disobeyed orders. He ventured further from the fort that his orders allowed him to go. Interstate 90 passes the sites of both battles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He didn't choose, he was ORDERED to use pack mules rather than wagon train by an idiot. He could have used gatling guns from wagon trains. If the 7th Cavalry had attempted to bring the Gatling guns and used supply wagons as you suggest, the regiment would have been slowed to a crawl and they never would have contacted the Indians at all. Custer was not supposed to contact the Indians until the other two columns arrived on the scene. He did not know that one of the columns commanded by General Crook had retreated after a battle with Crazy Horse 9 days earlier. He still should have waited for Generals Terry and Gibbons who were about a day away. He exhibited the same overconfidence that led Captain William Fetterman to his death in December 1866. Fetterman once boasted that with 80 troopers he could defeat the whole Souix Nation. He rode out of Fort Kearny one day with 80 troopers on December 21, 1866 and never came back. Like Custer he also disobeyed orders. He ventured further from the fort that his orders allowed him to go. Interstate 90 passes the sites of both battles. Custer was over confident, he expect the natives to flee like they always did. His decision to not wait was clearly an account of this (and probably by the fact that he career was in the dumpster and he had already been court-marshaled not that much earlier). He was a simple glory hound that unnecessarily lead his men to their deaths. Some have even speculated that he had a death wish to die in battle instead of the dishonorable discharge/court marshal that he would inevitably receive. His troops hated him and many of his officers openly complained about his command abilities/decisions, especially how poorly he treated his soldiers. I am surprised none of his soldiers put a bullet in him before little big horn. Custer in the Western campaigns was not the same man he was during the civil war. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 3:26:27 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've heard of many rifles with Ser# from those supposedly handed out to the 7th and I just assumed that most were Native pick ups in the aftermath. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There are supposed to be two to four MIAs from the 7th Cavalry as well as the missing payroll (coin). Mysteriously, one Trapdoor rifle turned up in Arizona (Ser #388) and according to the story, a ragged soldier stopped a cart driven by a Mexican. The Mexican consented to allowing the soldier to ride on the cart. The soldier placed his belongings (a box) and hopped aboard. Later, the Mexican killed the soldier and upon opening the box, discovered $14,000. He buried it but when he went back, found another family camping over the spot. He didn't want to alert them to his treasure or draw their attention so he left. When he returned, he found the family had dug up the spot and removed the treasure. All he got from the soldier then was the Trapdoor rifle (Ser #388). Could the soldier have been a survivor of the 7th? The serial # is supposed to be within the range of those issued to the 7th. Said Trapdoor (#388) was acquired by an Arizonan who later cracked the wrist by breaking the gun over an Apache's head. I've heard of many rifles with Ser# from those supposedly handed out to the 7th and I just assumed that most were Native pick ups in the aftermath. Most, if not all, of the weapons with Custer's immediate command surely wound up in the hands of the Indians. There are many verbal reports from the surviving hostiles on what they picked up from the field. There are also reports from Benteen's and Reno's commands about destroying stores and supplies that couldn't be carried back to deprive the Indians of their use. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 3:45:49 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I blame it on Benteen (cowardice and vengeance) and Reno (incompetence) I think these are definitely factors. But if Benteen and Reno had taken their troops toward Custer's, I strongly suspect that ALL troops would have been killed. If you go to the park and look at the topography of the battle site, it is extremely unfavorable for the kind of stand that Custer was attempting. Frankly, I am surprised that ANY of Major Reno's troops were able to get out of their initial position and survive. Captain Benteen's troops I am not sure of. I would offer the opinion that if the very large number of hostiles had been better organized, they COULD have definitely wiped out the rest of the 7th that day. And what a headline that would have made in the papers. I heard Lt. General Hal Moore speak and he admitted that on the first day of the Ia Drang Valley battle, he was thnking over and over "Are we going to end up like Custer?" Fortunately, then Lt. Col. Moore had U.S. air power and artillery which he used to go effect, thankfully. He also admitted that he had NO IIDEA of the enemy's strength and numbers - just like Custer didn't. I have often wondered what the course of our involvement in Vietnam would have taken IF Lt. Col. Moore's air cav troops had been wiped out that first day. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 3:47:06 PM EDT
[#41]
His first stand had better French fries.
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Posted: 1/7/2014 3:52:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think these are definitely factors. But if Benteen and Reno had taken their troops toward Custer's, I strongly suspect that ALL troops would have been killed. If you go to the park and look at the topography of the battle site, it is extremely unfavorable for the kind of stand that Custer was attempting. Frankly, I am surprised that ANY of Major Reno's troops were able to get out of their initial position and survive. Captain Benteen's troops I am not sure of. I would offer the opinion that if the very large number of hostiles had been better organized, they COULD have definitely wiped out the rest of the 7th that day. And what a headline that would have made in the papers. I heard Lt. General Hal Moore speak and he admitted that on the first day of the Ia Drang Valley battle, he was thnking over and over "Are we going to end up like Custer?" Fortunately, then Lt. Col. Moore had U.S. air power and artillery which he used to go effect, thankfully. He also admitted that he had NO IIDEA of the enemy's strength and numbers - just like Custer didn't. I have often wondered what the course of our involvement in Vietnam would have taken IF Lt. Col. Moore's air cav troops had been wiped out that first day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I blame it on Benteen (cowardice and vengeance) and Reno (incompetence) I think these are definitely factors. But if Benteen and Reno had taken their troops toward Custer's, I strongly suspect that ALL troops would have been killed. If you go to the park and look at the topography of the battle site, it is extremely unfavorable for the kind of stand that Custer was attempting. Frankly, I am surprised that ANY of Major Reno's troops were able to get out of their initial position and survive. Captain Benteen's troops I am not sure of. I would offer the opinion that if the very large number of hostiles had been better organized, they COULD have definitely wiped out the rest of the 7th that day. And what a headline that would have made in the papers. I heard Lt. General Hal Moore speak and he admitted that on the first day of the Ia Drang Valley battle, he was thnking over and over "Are we going to end up like Custer?" Fortunately, then Lt. Col. Moore had U.S. air power and artillery which he used to go effect, thankfully. He also admitted that he had NO IIDEA of the enemy's strength and numbers - just like Custer didn't. I have often wondered what the course of our involvement in Vietnam would have taken IF Lt. Col. Moore's air cav troops had been wiped out that first day. Reno should have NEVER left his position into the woods, on the other bank of the river. There he had plenty of cover, and the possibility to engage the natives denying them the proper use of their horses. Also he would have kept a good portion of native warriors busy, away from Custer. That was part of the plan. Instead of that, he literally panicked after his scout was shot, and gave confusing orders.. Sending all his troops into a catastrophic retreat. Benteen, could and should have gone to the sound of battle anyway. He didn't. It is calculated that he moved almost twice as slow as he was supposed to. Ps: I have been to the battlefield, twice. Custer didn't plan a stand. He planned to attack the village and seize the civilians, and force the warriors to surrender. The problem is that the warriors were many more than expected and prevented him to make captives. The fact that Reno and Benteen didn't follow his orders just made it all worse (catastrophic) for him. Custer sure made a lot of mistake, but those two men (Reno and Benteen) really failed him that day. Captain Weir had an interesting opinion about all of this.. Unfortunately, "he" committed suicide before he could testify..... |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 4:01:29 PM EDT
[#43]
What always struck me was the size of the battle site and esp where Custer died. It's damn small really.
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Posted: 1/7/2014 4:16:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think these are definitely factors. But if Benteen and Reno had taken their troops toward Custer's, I strongly suspect that ALL troops would have been killed. If you go to the park and look at the topography of the battle site, it is extremely unfavorable for the kind of stand that Custer was attempting. Frankly, I am surprised that ANY of Major Reno's troops were able to get out of their initial position and survive. Captain Benteen's troops I am not sure of. I would offer the opinion that if the very large number of hostiles had been better organized, they COULD have definitely wiped out the rest of the 7th that day. And what a headline that would have made in the papers. I heard Lt. General Hal Moore speak and he admitted that on the first day of the Ia Drang Valley battle, he was thnking over and over "Are we going to end up like Custer?" Fortunately, then Lt. Col. Moore had U.S. air power and artillery which he used to go effect, thankfully. He also admitted that he had NO IIDEA of the enemy's strength and numbers - just like Custer didn't. I have often wondered what the course of our involvement in Vietnam would have taken IF Lt. Col. Moore's air cav troops had been wiped out that first day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I blame it on Benteen (cowardice and vengeance) and Reno (incompetence) I think these are definitely factors. But if Benteen and Reno had taken their troops toward Custer's, I strongly suspect that ALL troops would have been killed. If you go to the park and look at the topography of the battle site, it is extremely unfavorable for the kind of stand that Custer was attempting. Frankly, I am surprised that ANY of Major Reno's troops were able to get out of their initial position and survive. Captain Benteen's troops I am not sure of. I would offer the opinion that if the very large number of hostiles had been better organized, they COULD have definitely wiped out the rest of the 7th that day. And what a headline that would have made in the papers. I heard Lt. General Hal Moore speak and he admitted that on the first day of the Ia Drang Valley battle, he was thnking over and over "Are we going to end up like Custer?" Fortunately, then Lt. Col. Moore had U.S. air power and artillery which he used to go effect, thankfully. He also admitted that he had NO IIDEA of the enemy's strength and numbers - just like Custer didn't. I have often wondered what the course of our involvement in Vietnam would have taken IF Lt. Col. Moore's air cav troops had been wiped out that first day. wrong- there is the misconception. Custer was told exactly what was there. every Scout told him that they had never seen that many Indians in one place and he didn't have enough ammunition. He ignored experienced men. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 4:19:18 PM EDT
[#45]
It was an interesting show.
-Lee |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 4:28:48 PM EDT
[#46]
I really don't care about the death of a northern aggressor.
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Posted: 1/7/2014 4:57:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This......and not doing enough reconnaissance to see that he was vastly outnumbered. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Over confidence. This......and not doing enough reconnaissance to see that he was vastly outnumbered. And oddly one of the primary roles of the old horse cav was recon. Custer was a great cav officer in the Civil War but he was not a great Indian fighter. |
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:15:01 PM EDT
[#49]
You know Custer was one if the reasons the union won at Gettysburg.
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Posted: 1/7/2014 6:17:13 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know Custer was one if the reasons the union won at Gettysburg. we are well aware of his deeds as a Northerner. just fuel to the hatred fire. |
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