User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 12:54:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That radar had better be able to track the target in severe ground clutter of the sea. It's useless otherwise. The useful range is much shorter to unusable in a sea state with high waves. Your radar on a 100 foot tower is a juicy target, too, and it's easy to find when it's radiating. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I say they had a long range SAM to take out planes at 100', and why would they need one? As I said, detection is the issue. If you detect cargo planes inbound at 100', it's a fish in a barrel. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 20,000 ft at 214 miles. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 100 ft at 18 miles. This is assuming no stealth or jamming. So, yes, if your enemy detects your cargo planes they are done, but detection range is much shorter with low-flying aircraft. And for some reason, I doubt these WIG aircraft will be in the first assault wave on any contested beach. Thanks for the mathematical support. The lack of understanding as to what these are supposed to do is embarrassing. The useful range is much shorter to unusable in a sea state with high waves. Your radar on a 100 foot tower is a juicy target, too, and it's easy to find when it's radiating. Any modern radar would have no problem with clutter. Doppler would make them stand out like a sore thumb. Also, there is little need to track them. Knowing they're coming would be all you needed. They're cargo planes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 12:57:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, and ground clutter making it harder to maintain a track and get a missile on it seems like an obvious advantage this thing would have over the C17…but that appears lost on some. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I say they had a long range SAM to take out planes at 100', and why would they need one? As I said, detection is the issue. If you detect cargo planes inbound at 100', it's a fish in a barrel. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 20,000 ft at 214 miles. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 100 ft at 18 miles. This is assuming no stealth or jamming. So, yes, if your enemy detects your cargo planes they are done, but detection range is much shorter with low-flying aircraft. And for some reason, I doubt these WIG aircraft will be in the first assault wave on any contested beach. Thanks for the mathematical support. The lack of understanding as to what these are supposed to do is embarrassing. The useful range is much shorter to unusable in a sea state with high waves. Your radar on a 100 foot tower is a juicy target, too, and it's easy to find when it's radiating. Yep, and ground clutter making it harder to maintain a track and get a missile on it seems like an obvious advantage this thing would have over the C17…but that appears lost on some. You don't need SAM's to stop cargo planes... but that appears lost on some. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 2:29:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We have fighters that can be launched pretty quick. Plenty quick enough for these, since they're not bombers. Even if they made it all the way to the beach, they'd be bobbing there in the water, waiting to get sunk. That's another reason that SAM's aren't really part of this conversation. These would never pose an immediate threat. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I say they had a long range SAM to take out planes at 100', and why would they need one? As I said, detection is the issue. If you detect cargo planes inbound at 100', it's a fish in a barrel. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 20,000 ft at 214 miles. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 100 ft at 18 miles. This is assuming no stealth or jamming. So, yes, if your enemy detects your cargo planes they are done, but detection range is much shorter with low-flying aircraft. And for some reason, I doubt these WIG aircraft will be in the first assault wave on any contested beach. That's what I said. ETA: I wonder if the US has the technology in place to detect a bunch of low flying planes approaching our shore. I wonder if the US has an ability to complete the kill chain. Detection is one thing, but if you can’t put a warhead on the threat all the detection in the world doesn’t stop your enemies. The CCP is dealing with this via ULR SAMs and a ton of different toys they’re trying to synch up so they can detect, track, and engage further and further away. We have fighters that can be launched pretty quick. Plenty quick enough for these, since they're not bombers. Even if they made it all the way to the beach, they'd be bobbing there in the water, waiting to get sunk. That's another reason that SAM's aren't really part of this conversation. These would never pose an immediate threat. As someone else mentioned, these don’t seem like something that’s going to the X. They’d be moving men and material about, not storming an enemy held beach. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 2:37:12 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't need SAM's to stop cargo planes... but that appears lost on some. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I say they had a long range SAM to take out planes at 100', and why would they need one? As I said, detection is the issue. If you detect cargo planes inbound at 100', it's a fish in a barrel. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 20,000 ft at 214 miles. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 100 ft at 18 miles. This is assuming no stealth or jamming. So, yes, if your enemy detects your cargo planes they are done, but detection range is much shorter with low-flying aircraft. And for some reason, I doubt these WIG aircraft will be in the first assault wave on any contested beach. Thanks for the mathematical support. The lack of understanding as to what these are supposed to do is embarrassing. The useful range is much shorter to unusable in a sea state with high waves. Your radar on a 100 foot tower is a juicy target, too, and it's easy to find when it's radiating. Yep, and ground clutter making it harder to maintain a track and get a missile on it seems like an obvious advantage this thing would have over the C17…but that appears lost on some. You don't need SAM's to stop cargo planes... but that appears lost on some. The Chinese are developing ULR SAMs to keep things like AWACS and tankers far away. This means fighters have less situational awareness and time on target as they have to fly further to tank up and the AWACS is unable to obtain information as far into enemy held territory. They can also be used to engage cargo aircraft that would be trying to keep the USMC outposts supplied. If you can sneak in without getting shot up then ground forces can remain a thorn in the Chinese Navy and Air Force’s side. The PLAAF isn’t going to be chasing down every random aircraft that can be detected, just like how every competent force around the world has a SAM element in its ranks. My assessment is that these are being developed to move men and weapons around the Pacific faster than a boat and less easily detected than a C-17 at 20,000ft AGL, all without needing a 5,000ft runway to operate. Your position is…what exactly? |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 2:48:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Chinese are developing ULR SAMs to keep things like AWACS and tankers far away. This means fighters have less situational awareness and time on target as they have to fly further to tank up and the AWACS is unable to obtain information as far into enemy held territory. They can also be used to engage cargo aircraft that would be trying to keep the USMC outposts supplied. If you can sneak in without getting shot up then ground forces can remain a thorn in the Chinese Navy and Air Force’s side. The PLAAF isn’t going to be chasing down every random aircraft that can be detected, just like how every competent force around the world has a SAM element in its ranks. My assessment is that these are being developed to move men and weapons around the Pacific faster than a boat and less easily detected than a C-17 at 20,000ft AGL, all without needing a 5,000ft runway to operate. Your position is…what exactly? I hope their sams are good enough to detect, track, and engage bumblebees at 90000 feet. Or they're gonna have a bad time. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 2:53:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hope their sams are good enough to detect, track, and engage bumblebees at 90000 feet. Or they're gonna have a bad time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Chinese are developing ULR SAMs to keep things like AWACS and tankers far away. This means fighters have less situational awareness and time on target as they have to fly further to tank up and the AWACS is unable to obtain information as far into enemy held territory. They can also be used to engage cargo aircraft that would be trying to keep the USMC outposts supplied. If you can sneak in without getting shot up then ground forces can remain a thorn in the Chinese Navy and Air Force’s side. The PLAAF isn’t going to be chasing down every random aircraft that can be detected, just like how every competent force around the world has a SAM element in its ranks. My assessment is that these are being developed to move men and weapons around the Pacific faster than a boat and less easily detected than a C-17 at 20,000ft AGL, all without needing a 5,000ft runway to operate. Your position is…what exactly? I hope their sams are good enough to detect, track, and engage bumblebees at 90000 feet. Or they're gonna have a bad time. No idea how good they are, but I imagine their very existence is why things like this are being looked at. Even if only 1 in 10 connect, that’s a lot of downed airplanes. And something like a tanker or C-17 is such a low density airframe that everyone lost has an impact. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 3:02:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or you could just send in the 82nd and heavy drop the needed stuff. Pope AFB |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 8:44:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Chinese are developing ULR SAMs to keep things like AWACS and tankers far away. This means fighters have less situational awareness and time on target as they have to fly further to tank up and the AWACS is unable to obtain information as far into enemy held territory. They can also be used to engage cargo aircraft that would be trying to keep the USMC outposts supplied. If you can sneak in without getting shot up then ground forces can remain a thorn in the Chinese Navy and Air Force’s side. The PLAAF isn’t going to be chasing down every random aircraft that can be detected, just like how every competent force around the world has a SAM element in its ranks. My assessment is that these are being developed to move men and weapons around the Pacific faster than a boat and less easily detected than a C-17 at 20,000ft AGL, all without needing a 5,000ft runway to operate. Your position is…what exactly? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where did I say they had a long range SAM to take out planes at 100', and why would they need one? As I said, detection is the issue. If you detect cargo planes inbound at 100', it's a fish in a barrel. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 20,000 ft at 214 miles. A radar on a 100' tower will detect a target flying at 100 ft at 18 miles. This is assuming no stealth or jamming. So, yes, if your enemy detects your cargo planes they are done, but detection range is much shorter with low-flying aircraft. And for some reason, I doubt these WIG aircraft will be in the first assault wave on any contested beach. Thanks for the mathematical support. The lack of understanding as to what these are supposed to do is embarrassing. The useful range is much shorter to unusable in a sea state with high waves. Your radar on a 100 foot tower is a juicy target, too, and it's easy to find when it's radiating. Yep, and ground clutter making it harder to maintain a track and get a missile on it seems like an obvious advantage this thing would have over the C17…but that appears lost on some. You don't need SAM's to stop cargo planes... but that appears lost on some. The Chinese are developing ULR SAMs to keep things like AWACS and tankers far away. This means fighters have less situational awareness and time on target as they have to fly further to tank up and the AWACS is unable to obtain information as far into enemy held territory. They can also be used to engage cargo aircraft that would be trying to keep the USMC outposts supplied. If you can sneak in without getting shot up then ground forces can remain a thorn in the Chinese Navy and Air Force’s side. The PLAAF isn’t going to be chasing down every random aircraft that can be detected, just like how every competent force around the world has a SAM element in its ranks. My assessment is that these are being developed to move men and weapons around the Pacific faster than a boat and less easily detected than a C-17 at 20,000ft AGL, all without needing a 5,000ft runway to operate. Your position is…what exactly? My position is that they're wasting time and money for something we don't need, that would come at the expense of other capabilities that are pretty handy to have. ANY PLANE CAN FLY IN GROUND EFFECT. You don't need a superwing that's only going to gain a little on what a C-17 can already get. By all means, build a flying boat version of a C-17. That would be awesome, and it could fly at 100 feet just fine if the need arises. Whether or not to build a sea plane is not what this thread is about. They're building a "Liberty Lifter Seaplane WING-IN-GROUND-EFFECT full-scale demonstrator", which a waste of an ungodly amount of money. Instead, maybe they should work on something useful, like how to make a flying boat that won't rot away in ten years. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/19/2023 10:05:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My position is that they're wasting time and money for something we don't need, that would come at the expense of other capabilities that pretty are handy to have. ANY PLANE CAN FLY IN GROUND EFFECT. You don't need a superwing that's only going to gain a little on what a C-17 can already get. By all means, build a flying boat version of a C-17. That would be awesome, and it could fly at 100 feet just fine if the need arises. Whether or not to build a sea plane is not what this thread is about. They're building a "Liberty Lifter Seaplane WING-IN-GROUND-EFFECT full-scale demonstrator", which a waste of an ungodly amount of money. Instead, maybe they should work on something useful, like how to make a flying boat that won't rot away in ten years.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2023 9:13:08 AM EDT
[#10]
DARPA and the the various services’ research labs fund a lot of S&T and developments. The big question is will a resource sponsor pick it up the developed item so if does not enter the valley of death and sit on the shelf.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2023 10:30:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a seaborne C-17 with some out-of-ground effect capability. They'll use it for strategic and tactical matters when conventional aircraft are unavailable or impractical. These will be able to land at sea where traditional aircraft can't due to no airfields, airfields bombed out etc. It is intended to supplement and improve strategic and tactical sealift, not airlift. This, it’d be a neat option to have when your airfields are cratered and littered with cluster bombs. You cannot really crater an ocean but you could mine one. May be a tool with a Taiwan oriented plan and expectation that guided missiles will be targeting all their known fields. |
|
|
|
Posted: 2/21/2023 10:33:04 AM EDT
[#12]
Alclad Goose
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
