Post from dabassi -

That is, of course, true, for all have sinned and fallen short, save Him.

But that does not let His church off the hook now does it?

A Christian philosphy that says, 'well since no one can fully obey His commandments, what's the harm...' is no philosophy at all.

[b]And he said unto him, [red]Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: [u]but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments[/u][/b][/red]. Matthew 19:17

Eric The(HeIsLord,AfterAll)Hun[>]:)]

I have been trying to think of something that I can add to this discussion... Something is amiss in the argument, but I can't put my finger on it.

EDITED TO ADD:

Just because the "WORD" allows you to assign particular characteristics to entire classes of objects (the different people(s) ) in this case doesn't meen that your statement will end up being accurate, in fact the larger the brush you paint with the more improbable your accuracy will become. In that just because the seed is within the particular land doesn't meen the seed will go as the land goes. And therein lays the crux of the problem. Seed in this sense meaning all peoples of a certain lineage... There is the problem...

Don't Confuse the seed with the land, even though often seeds are in the land...

The seed can only exist in the land if he/she/ they are doing his will.

.... Thinking thinking....

That NO person can ever be "as the seed" of the land unless they are doing gods will.......

Something is about to be understood by me...

That many peoples and lines can be "as the seed" of the same land.... DUH, God can promise the land to thousands upon thousands and still keep promising, because there is ROOM for ALL.....

So it is my pleasure to announce that palestine can quit blowing up children, now because I have figured it out..

The Arabs can park their asses right in their own spot and be fruitful and multiply right where they are at... If they choose to... Or they can choose not to do this, but after a while it is doubtful that they will be inheriting anything at all much less land, and if they get any land at all it will just be a burial plot.....  


Ben

Ben -

Yer on the right track.

Lemme refer you to Galtians 3:

[b]16   Now the promises were spoken (27) to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, " And to your seed," that is, Christ.


29   And if (51) you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to (52) promise. [/b]


THE ONE AND ONLY seed of the promise was Christ. ONLY those in Christ are the seed of Abraham.

[b]Roamns 2: 28
A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is ciscumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]


I plead with you to read the entire chapter of Galtians 3 and Romans 4. It says it better than I can.

exactly



and i dont subscribe to that philosophy at all.

Thank you Garandman but I am working on something different.

What???

Whirled Peas?????

[:D]

[8D]

Hey Fellas,
    I've been reading The Word since I've been able to read.  I must admit that I've had no divine inspirations on it, just some Spirit led understanding.
   
    This is a very simple, childlike analogy, but that seems to be the kind that Jesus liked to use, so here goes.  

    IMHO the disagreements in this thread all seem to point back to one word - possession.  It can be use as a noun or verb.  Used as a noun, as in "...give the land to your seed as an everlasting possession" it has a different connotation than if God had said "...give everlasting possession of the land to your seed".  The day that my only son was born, my business partner bought him an old Winchester pump .22 rifle to be his first possession.  Despite what the ATF says, it is his possession. Since he just tuned 8 years old, it is not in his possession yet.  It is in his possession when we go shooting, but as soon as we get through, it is once again in my possession.  In a few years, it will be in his possession - conditionally.  If he acts irresponsibly and damages a neighbor's property, it will once again be in my possession.  When I feel he has become more responsible it will return to his possession.  If he screws up with it again, it will again be in my possession, or if he really needs to be taught a stronger lesson, I may put it in his sister's possession.  That will turn him back to my way of seeing things even better. This method of getting his attention/punishing him could conceivably go on until he is 18 or until he is bigger, stronger, and smarter than I am.  Here the analogy must end since these time/event constraints rule out "everlasting"

    FWIW, my son is more knowledgeable about, and responsible with firearms than many grown men who own them (this not according to a proud daddy, but to several local gun dealers whose inventory he inspects on a regular basis), but I thought that the father/child relationship fit in quite nicely.  After all, does anyone know of a Father who deals with His children in a more just fashion than God, our Heavenly Father?

    There, I got that out of my system, and have donned my Nomex coveralls, but before any of my Christian brothers flame away, you might be surprised at how closely the rest of our theological beliefs are. (G-man in particular).[o:)]

I lost faith in God at a very young age, and I couldn't feel better about it.  This preaching stuff is comical.

Garand, I know that we disagree about occupation of the land verses a right (inheretance) to it regarding chastisment of His people.  Do you agree that the end times will be the fullfilment of God's prophecy that they (Israel) will be his people and He will be their God?  The nation has been created in the midst of their enemies.  The Jews are returning there by the millions (He is gathering His people).  The world is foaming for a permanent settlement of this "problem" in the middle east.  Do you see Armageddon, or great tribulation written anywhere in this?

I do agree with you as to the salvation of souls.  You are correct about the individuals involved.  The churches of the United States send out about 90% of the world's Christian missionaries (over 100 of whom are supported by my local church)  including those to the middle east.  I am not debating the individual's need for Christ, but the actions of states and hostile organizations.  Remember Christ had no problem getting ugly and even violent with evil men.

The problem I have is the Muslims create enemies to our nation with single digit ages.  I have no problem with their death.  Islam is evil.  If Islam were destroyed them purhaps many more would get a chance to hear the Gospel.  We are in a catch 22 in that screaming hostile muslims that control the governments over there are not interested in listening.  Their minds were made up by the time they were 6.  I you want souls saved destroy Islam for the sake of those trapped behind it.  The Islamic state is the enemy of both our Nation and our missionary efforts.  Planerench out (BTW I am sorry to start these forrest fire type post and leave but, I have to work 12 hours a day.  I don't know how you two ETH, do it! And I have been registered longer than you two!)

Unable to think in abstract terms (the Bible treats end times in very abstract terms) I'll admit my eyes glaze over when someone starts preaching out of the book of Revelation.

But to answer what I beleive God will do with israel in the end times with Israel, we'd have to define "Israel." I'd enjoy doing that, because everytime I bring this up, someone unfairly charges me with advocating "replacement theology" which is untrue.

Really, I'd like to do that, by e-mail preferrably. I'll let you initiate the conversation, as I don't want to force my viewpoint on you.





Here we see what in my estimation is part of teh problem. The Middle East FORCES one to pick sides. CLEARLY anyone who advocates a sanctity of life and  morality cannot side with the terrorists. Well, that reality DOES NOT mean we MUST by default side with Israel.

Its TOO EASY to let political issues muddy the waters. We MUST let Scripture, and NOT the evilness of the terrorists, dictate what our regard for Israel should be.

Being a practicing, professing Christian forces you to 'take sides' throughout your life.

[b]But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.[/b] Hebrews 5:14

You are [u]supposed[/u] to have 'spritual discernment' in making your choices as to which side you will take.

If you lack 'spritual discernment' then pray to the Father for some.

His Hand is not shortened. Ask and you will receive.

Just get rid of the beam in thine eye, first.

Eric The(YouKnowWhatBeam)Hun[>]:)]

Eric -

You had your turn at the microphone.

This is a conversation between me and planewrench now.

Then take your private discussion off line!

Ta-dah!

Eric The(Public)Hun[>]:)]

And if you could read, instead of just throw charachterizations at me, you'd see I invited planewrench to do just that.

Ooops, I thought I wasn't part of this discussion...

[u]You[/u] are the one that said the situation 'FORCES' one to pick sides.

Well, the choice is pretty obvious to everyone.

Almost everyone.

Eric The(NothingButTheTruthSoHelpMeGod)Hun[>]:)]

Post from garandman -

Then what's your problem with my post?

Just a general objection, nothing specific?

Eric The(Yeah,Right!)Hun[>]:)]

the dave -

If you check, you'll see I didn't initiate this conversation.

And if you check a LITTLE closer, you'll see I AM trying to pursue this elsewhere.

Post from thedave1164 -

Yes, indeed.

[b]Romans 11[/b]

24   For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25   For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26   [b]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27   [u]For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins[/u].

28   [u]As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes[/u].[/b]

Eric The(Devout)Hun[>]:)]

Dave,
If you think that the physical location of Israel and the Jews that live their are the chosen people of God, then why should you or I or any other Christian follow God.  By that rationale I'll be sucking hide tit to a person who doesn't even believe Christ is the son of God.  I would encourage you to read Galatins 3 it is very plainly spelled out that those who believe in Christ having been saved and baptist with the Holy Spirit are Israel.  We are all equal in God's eyes.