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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:25:16 AM EDT
[#1]
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It appears this was a direct file of the charges and was not ran by a Grand Jury for an indictment. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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many believe the case is designed to fail It appears this was a direct file of the charges and was not ran by a Grand Jury for an indictment. Oh really? That's never a good move. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 3:50:33 AM EDT
[#2]
I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this:
Nouman Raja: ["Officer Raja of Palm Beach Gardens PD. Is everything alright?"] (Not recorded) Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Good?” Jones: “I’m Good” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 4:45:33 AM EDT
[#3]
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I always thought plainclothes policemen were a danger to civilians. I know they are necessary but well marked police vehicles and uniforms leaves little ambiguity to what they are. They are not a danger if they use them to execute warrants or in limited scenarios as robbery, bum, hobo, hooker traps. Using them to harass turnstile fare jumpers and arguing with homeowners at their from doors is self defeating |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 6:43:11 AM EDT
[#4]
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Right there....you just went full retard. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts How do you KNOW he wasn't?
Right there....you just went full retard. Please explain how you KNOW what he was going to do exactly? None of his conversation with the victim indicate he was acting in a reasonable LE capacity. He did nothing to deserve the benefit of the doubt that he was even behaving in a law abiding fashion. Any non LEO behaving in exactly the same manner would not get it. Looking at his actions before, during, and after the shooting it's every bit as reasonable to believe his goals were sinister. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 8:28:24 AM EDT
[#5]
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Yeah we know. I was trying to get the Judge to explain how the victim's state of mind was relevant to the charges against the cop. Manslaughter seems like an appropriate charge but if it was relevant that the victim subjectively believed the cop was a bad guy committing a crime then maybe he should be charged higher. I don't think that is how the law works tho, and was trying to understand his point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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These last two posts are good examples of defenses if the dude had shot the cop. But we know the cop wasn't carjacking him, and it's not the dude on trial for shooting a cop he thought was carjacking him. edit: Hugo and FLAL1A's posts The cop put the victim in a situation where a reasonable man would believe he is facing imminent death or serious physical harm. The cop then shot then man he forced into a corner. Yeah we know. I was trying to get the Judge to explain how the victim's state of mind was relevant to the charges against the cop. Manslaughter seems like an appropriate charge but if it was relevant that the victim subjectively believed the cop was a bad guy committing a crime then maybe he should be charged higher. I don't think that is how the law works tho, and was trying to understand his point. There must be something under Florida statute or case law, because I'm not sure how the SA will get to that point either. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 8:28:24 AM EDT
[#6]
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I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this:So you have the stranded motorist who has an unidentified and suspicious acting person approaching him from his perspective and you have an officer who thinks he's identified himself dealing with a potential suspect who is acting suspicious from his perspective. Raja, thinking he's identified himself, acts like a cop dealing with a nervous suspect ("You good?"). Jones, not knowing Raja is an officer, acts nervous and reaches for his pistol and things spiral to their conclusion. If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this: Nouman Raja: ["Officer Raja of Palm Beach Gardens PD. Is everything alright?"] (Not recorded) Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Good?” Jones: “I’m Good” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. Yep. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 8:30:52 AM EDT
[#7]
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Just finished reading the PC affidavit. I can see why they did the two charges. He may not have had "malice of forethought" prior to the stop....but he sure as hell tried to cover up his actions afterwards with the phony 911 statements of "drop that gun" and such. Malice=intent. Throw his ass in prison. This. Fuck that guy. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 9:43:33 AM EDT
[#8]
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I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this:So you have the stranded motorist who has an unidentified and suspicious acting person approaching him from his perspective and you have an officer who thinks he's identified himself dealing with a potential suspect who is acting suspicious from his perspective. Raja, thinking he's identified himself, acts like a cop dealing with a nervous suspect ("You good?"). Jones, not knowing Raja is an officer, acts nervous and reaches for his pistol and things spiral to their conclusion. If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this: Nouman Raja: ["Officer Raja of Palm Beach Gardens PD. Is everything alright?"] (Not recorded) Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Good?” Jones: “I’m Good” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. So, he didn't, --Wear a badge --Wear a tac vest --Approached on the wrong side of the road --Fabricated an incident on the 911 call --Likely lied in reports and interviews But we're supposed to take his word for it that he identified himself as a cop. Ok.
When you end up explaining too much shit away, you start making excuses. You don't want to be doing that in front of a jury. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 10:29:19 AM EDT
[#9]
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I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this:So you have the stranded motorist who has an unidentified and suspicious acting person approaching him from his perspective and you have an officer who thinks he's identified himself dealing with a potential suspect who is acting suspicious from his perspective. Raja, thinking he's identified himself, acts like a cop dealing with a nervous suspect ("You good?"). Jones, not knowing Raja is an officer, acts nervous and reaches for his pistol and things spiral to their conclusion. If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this: Nouman Raja: ["Officer Raja of Palm Beach Gardens PD. Is everything alright?"] (Not recorded) Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Good?” Jones: “I’m Good” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. Ok, I'll grant you that. In fact, the local PBA is saying exactly that....that the recording didn't capture everything and what was missed was the ID. HOWEVER......in any conversation you've ever had, when you said something and the person in response said "Huh?" or "What?" or "Come again?" or "who?"......did you or did you not repeat yourself? See, that's why it's a moot point. Because if he claims that is what happened...missing recording of the ID, then the response is "why didn't you repeat yourself" as the person receiving the message was obviously unclear as to what you said. And being that they didn't hear you, what were you wearing that would reinforce that statement?.....Nothing. What were you driving that would reinforce that statement?......Nothing. Was there a single thing you said, did, or wore that would reinforce that? No. why? Because you were negligent. Negligent to a point where it's culpable. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 12:57:57 PM EDT
[#10]
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OK, I'll grant you that. In fact, the local PBA is saying exactly that....that the recording didn't capture everything and what was missed was the ID. HOWEVER......in any conversation you've ever had, when you said something and the person in response said "Huh?" or "What?" or "Come again?" or "who?"......did you or did you not repeat yourself? See, that's why it's a moot point. Because if he claims that is what happened...missing recording of the ID, then the response is "why didn't you repeat yourself" as the person receiving the message was obviously unclear as to what you said. And being that they didn't hear you, what were you wearing that would reinforce that statement?.....Nothing. What were you driving that would reinforce that statement?......Nothing. Was there a single thing you said, did, or wore that would reinforce that? No. why? Because you were negligent. Negligent to a point where it's culpable. If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 1:21:20 PM EDT
[#11]
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If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 1:48:09 PM EDT
[#12]
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If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:05:02 PM EDT
[#13]
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What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? Francisco is going down the theory of thought that he identified himself as a police officer in that was never actually caught on tape |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:08:54 PM EDT
[#14]
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What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Is one of two things, a Law Enforcement action or a robbery. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:11:15 PM EDT
[#15]
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Is one of two things, a Law Enforcement action or a robbery. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Is one of two things, a Law Enforcement action or a robbery. Good point. So he claims he ID himself and was issuing lawful commands. While being in the area lawfully and in lawful contact with the other person. The other guy draws his gun and the cop shoots him. Now he is facing legal action. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:28:51 PM EDT
[#16]
What do we make of two string of shots?
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:31:40 PM EDT
[#17]
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Good point. So he claims he ID himself and was issuing lawful commands. While being in the area lawfully and in lawful contact with the other person. The other guy draws his gun and the cop shoots him. Now he is facing legal action. I get that you're arguing the legal facts and playing devil's advocate, but this cop REALLY screwed the pooch and a man is dead because of his mistake. In my mind he is more culpable than Johannes Mehserle, who made a mistake by drawing his SIG instead of his TASER in a tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving violent situaiton, shot Oscar Grant and was convicted of manslaughter under a novel approach to CA law. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:32:30 PM EDT
[#18]
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What do we make of two string of shots? Armed, dangerous felon fleeing into the community? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:37:33 PM EDT
[#19]
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I get that you're arguing the legal facts and playing devil's advocate, but this cop REALLY screwed the pooch and a man is dead because of his mistake. In my mind he is more culpable than Johannes Mehserle, who made a mistake by drawing his SIG instead of his TASER in a tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving violent situaiton, shot Oscar Grant and was convicted of manslaughter under a novel approach to CA law. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good point. So he claims he ID himself and was issuing lawful commands. While being in the area lawfully and in lawful contact with the other person. The other guy draws his gun and the cop shoots him. Now he is facing legal action. I get that you're arguing the legal facts and playing devil's advocate, but this cop REALLY screwed the pooch and a man is dead because of his mistake. In my mind he is more culpable than Johannes Mehserle, who made a mistake by drawing his SIG instead of his TASER in a tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving violent situaiton, shot Oscar Grant and was convicted of manslaughter under a novel approach to CA law. I've tried to avoid a straight up LE to Civilian comparison to this situation because the vast majority of time there is no direct relationship to the LE/Civilian world. But this is a case I very easy see going over into the civilian world. If the shooter in this case was not a cop potentially doing cop stuff but just an ordinary Joe Blow with a CCW permit checking on a broke down motorist would he be facing charges in case like this. Mehserle got fucked big time. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:41:29 PM EDT
[#20]
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Armed, dangerous felon fleeing into the community? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What do we make of two string of shots? Armed, dangerous felon fleeing into the community? Did the officer issue the required commands and identify himself? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:42:36 PM EDT
[#21]
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So a person who is not engaging in illegal activities has no right of self-defense against a person who presents a lethal threat if the other person views them as a potential threat? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Again at what point do the parties cease having the ability to use self-defense? "When he engaged in conduct a reasonable man would know was likely to draw a lawful forcible response." I think that's the prosecutor's answer, and I think it's correct. It most certainly is a fucked-up situation, but one which was created entirely by the officer. So a person who is not engaging in illegal activities has no right of self-defense against a person who presents a lethal threat if the other person views them as a potential threat? I don't think that's it. A person who knew or should have known that his conduct and appearance would invite a threat of force from an unoffending other has no right to respond in kind to such a threat - that seems to be it. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:43:00 PM EDT
[#22]
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I've tried to avoid a straight up LE to Civilian comparison to this situation because the vast majority of time there is no direct relationship to the LE/Civilian world. But this is a case I very easy see going over into the civilian world. If the shooter in this case was not a cop potentially doing cop stuff but just an ordinary Joe Blow with a CCW permit checking on a broke down motorist would he be facing charges in case like this. Mehserle got fucked big time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good point. So he claims he ID himself and was issuing lawful commands. While being in the area lawfully and in lawful contact with the other person. The other guy draws his gun and the cop shoots him. Now he is facing legal action. I get that you're arguing the legal facts and playing devil's advocate, but this cop REALLY screwed the pooch and a man is dead because of his mistake. In my mind he is more culpable than Johannes Mehserle, who made a mistake by drawing his SIG instead of his TASER in a tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving violent situaiton, shot Oscar Grant and was convicted of manslaughter under a novel approach to CA law. I've tried to avoid a straight up LE to Civilian comparison to this situation because the vast majority of time there is no direct relationship to the LE/Civilian world. But this is a case I very easy see going over into the civilian world. If the shooter in this case was not a cop potentially doing cop stuff but just an ordinary Joe Blow with a CCW permit checking on a broke down motorist would he be facing charges in case like this. Mehserle got fucked big time. Mehserle got what he had coming. People get convicted of manslaughter everyday for mistakes, why should he be any different? As to this case, does someone get to provoke a reaction out of someone and then shoot them for it? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:47:14 PM EDT
[#23]
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Good point. So he claims he ID himself and was issuing lawful commands. While being in the area lawfully and in lawful contact with the other person. The other guy draws his gun and the cop shoots him. Now he is facing legal action. Plausible, however his actions prior to and after the shooting give no reason to provide him with the benefit of the doubt that his claim of identifying himself is true. Prior: Disregarded policy and orders to wear identifying clothing and have his badge visible and improperly driving his vehicle on the road with no LE markings or lights activated. Post: The timing of the last shots, location of the victim's pistol in relation to his body, and the action of placing a 911 call. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:48:28 PM EDT
[#24]
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I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this:So you have the stranded motorist who has an unidentified and suspicious acting person approaching him from his perspective and you have an officer who thinks he's identified himself dealing with a potential suspect who is acting suspicious from his perspective. Raja, thinking he's identified himself, acts like a cop dealing with a nervous suspect ("You good?"). Jones, not knowing Raja is an officer, acts nervous and reaches for his pistol and things spiral to their conclusion. If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I noticed that most assume that the phone captured the entirety of the verbal communication between Jones and Raja, but I doubt that is the case. Notice that the first thing said by Jones in the transcript is "Huh?". I believe this likely means that Raja said something to Jones that Jones did not understand. I further believe that something was most likely Raja verbally identifying himself. Thus the "real" transcript is something like this: Nouman Raja: ["Officer Raja of Palm Beach Gardens PD. Is everything alright?"] (Not recorded) Corey Jones: “Huh?” Nouman Raja: “You Good?” Jones: “I’m Good” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah, I’m good.” Raja: “Really?” Jones: “Yeah” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Get your f*cking hands up!” Jones: “Hold on!” Raja: “Get your f*cking hands up! Drop!” If my speculation is correct I think a criminal conviction, especially a major one, is unlikely. Even if you're right, why would you believe somebody in street clothes, no badge, no radio, candy van, wrong-way-driving, was a cop based on his say-so? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:50:36 PM EDT
[#25]
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They are not a danger if they use them to execute warrants or in limited scenarios as robbery, bum, hobo, hooker traps. Using them to harass turnstile fare jumpers and arguing with homeowners at their from doors is self defeating Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I always thought plainclothes policemen were a danger to civilians. I know they are necessary but well marked police vehicles and uniforms leaves little ambiguity to what they are. They are not a danger if they use them to execute warrants or in limited scenarios as robbery, bum, hobo, hooker traps. Using them to harass turnstile fare jumpers and arguing with homeowners at their from doors is self defeating "Executing warrants" is pretty much either arguing with homeowners at their front doors or making forcible entry to homes. Why would you use a plainclothesman for either one? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:51:15 PM EDT
[#26]
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I don't think that's it. A person who knew or should have known that his conduct and appearance would invite a threat of force from an unoffending other has no right to respond in kind to such a threat - that seems to be it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So a person who is not engaging in illegal activities has no right of self-defense against a person who presents a lethal threat if the other person views them as a potential threat? I don't think that's it. A person who knew or should have known that his conduct and appearance would invite a threat of force from an unoffending other has no right to respond in kind to such a threat - that seems to be it. If that was true then you could shoot every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:56:36 PM EDT
[#27]
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If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. Agreed, it's more than just a policy violation. Not being easily ID as police is negligent. He had ZERO indication he was a LEO.....vehicle style, lack of lights/siren, no uniform, no insignia, no vest, no badge, no radio, nothing. Even his manner of speech and the commands he choose. Something as simple as "Let me see your hands" as opposed to the way he said with profanity. Trust me, you'll be hard pressed to find a single LE trainer who would point to a single thing he did right. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 2:59:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed, it's more than just a policy violation. Not being easily ID as police is negligent. He had ZERO indication he was a LEO.....vehicle style, lack of lights/siren, no uniform, no insignia, no vest, no badge, no radio, nothing. Even his manner of speech and the commands he choose. Something as simple as "Let me see your hands" as opposed to the way he said with profanity. Trust me, you'll be hard pressed to find a single LE trainer who would point to a single thing he did right. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. Agreed, it's more than just a policy violation. Not being easily ID as police is negligent. He had ZERO indication he was a LEO.....vehicle style, lack of lights/siren, no uniform, no insignia, no vest, no badge, no radio, nothing. Even his manner of speech and the commands he choose. Something as simple as "Let me see your hands" as opposed to the way he said with profanity. Trust me, you'll be hard pressed to find a single LE trainer who would point to a single thing he did right. If someone jumped out of the Free Candy Rape Van at 0300 in the morning on me wearing a full standard police uniform, I would not believe they were the police. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 3:00:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? Well,if you really want to go that route then he was negligent in the way he approached (Traffic violation for driving the wrong way down an exit ramp), negligent in the way he positioned his car (traffic violation for,blocking the lane of travel, blocking the motorist in) and negligent in the way he "offered help".....not sure you could construe the things he said in the tone he said them as "offering help" However, all the above is out the window as his on scene statement was that he was taking LE action to "investigate". |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 3:00:35 PM EDT
[#30]
This may be of some help. The rule of thumb on Manslaughter in Florida is this: If a killing is not 1* Murder, not 2* Murder, not justified, and not excusable, it's Manslaughter. Manslaughter is known for this reason as a "residual offense." The killing in this case was probably not premeditated (1*), doesn't evince a depraved mind regardless of human life (2*), didn't occur by accident and misfortune without a dangerous weapon (excusable) and at least according to the prosecutor wasn't in lawful defense of self or others or to terminate a forcible felony (justified).
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Posted: 6/3/2016 3:01:31 PM EDT
[#31]
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If that was true then you could shoot every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So a person who is not engaging in illegal activities has no right of self-defense against a person who presents a lethal threat if the other person views them as a potential threat? I don't think that's it. A person who knew or should have known that his conduct and appearance would invite a threat of force from an unoffending other has no right to respond in kind to such a threat - that seems to be it. If that was true then you could shoot every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham. Does every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham invite a lawful threat of force? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 3:01:51 PM EDT
[#32]
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What do we make of two string of shots? That is what is going to get him in a lot of trouble. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 3:10:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Why can't all our cop threads be like this? Nice to constructively discuss theory of law for once
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Posted: 6/3/2016 3:14:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why can't all our cop threads be like this? Nice to constructively discuss theory of law for once Now you've done it. This thread will self destruct into a shit storm in 5.......4.........3.........2........ |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 3:21:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham invite a lawful threat of force? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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So a person who is not engaging in illegal activities has no right of self-defense against a person who presents a lethal threat if the other person views them as a potential threat? I don't think that's it. A person who knew or should have known that his conduct and appearance would invite a threat of force from an unoffending other has no right to respond in kind to such a threat - that seems to be it. If that was true then you could shoot every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham. Does every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham invite a lawful threat of force? Well from cruising the front page of AL.com there seems to be theme among those who seem to be doing a lot of killing in B'ham. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 4:02:15 PM EDT
[#36]
This happened very close to me.
One thing I would note - he was fired by the PBG PD, very shortly after the incident. The following was stuff that came out via local news shortly after it happened - take it's validity with a grain of salt. - In Raja's previous job he covered a Hospital - where the workers essentially described him as a mall ninja with a badge. (it was reported he regularly carried large military style knives as part of his kit) - The night of the incident he was told by his CO not to leave the parking lot of the hotel at the end of the off-ramp Based on the way this went down, and who the victim was (upstanding guy from a well respected family), this is going to be a case where everything possible was done to set the prosecution up for success. There's a reason why he's just getting charged now; this case will be airtight, unless he has a damn good attorney. This isn't like Trayvon where the victim was a criminal, and the officer was very likely justified, but the DA has to go through the process for the sake of doing it. This is a case where the cop show a lot of negligence and it resulted in a black guy getting killed. It will be used to say "we prosecute and convict cop for doing the wrong thing when it happens". |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 4:40:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good point. So he claims he ID himself and was issuing lawful commands. While being in the area lawfully and in lawful contact with the other person. The other guy draws his gun and the cop shoots him. Now he is facing legal action. Consider Raja fabricated the story, I'm not going to believe a word he says. His incompetence doesn't help his credibility either. He had lawful right to scream at a man with no proof to his identity while driving in a damgerous manner in the middle of the night? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 4:42:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've tried to avoid a straight up LE to Civilian comparison to this situation because the vast majority of time there is no direct relationship to the LE/Civilian world. But this is a case I very easy see going over into the civilian world. If the shooter in this case was not a cop potentially doing cop stuff but just an ordinary Joe Blow with a CCW permit checking on a broke down motorist would he be facing charges in case like this. Mehserle got fucked big time. He killed someone when even he didn't think that he was justified in doing so. Killing someone without justification is unlawful. Even in CA. God forbid people are held accountable for their fuckups. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 4:43:31 PM EDT
[#39]
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Mehserle got what he had coming. People get convicted of manslaughter everyday for mistakes, why should he be any different? As to this case, does someone get to provoke a reaction out of someone and then shoot them for it? Yes. Arena uber alles. #team* |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 5:05:04 PM EDT
[#40]
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"Executing warrants" is pretty much either arguing with homeowners at their front doors or making forcible entry to homes. Why would you use a plainclothesman for either one? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I always thought plainclothes policemen were a danger to civilians. I know they are necessary but well marked police vehicles and uniforms leaves little ambiguity to what they are. They are not a danger if they use them to execute warrants or in limited scenarios as robbery, bum, hobo, hooker traps. Using them to harass turnstile fare jumpers and arguing with homeowners at their from doors is self defeating "Executing warrants" is pretty much either arguing with homeowners at their front doors or making forcible entry to homes. Why would you use a plainclothesman for either one? |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 5:08:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If that was true then you could shoot every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So a person who is not engaging in illegal activities has no right of self-defense against a person who presents a lethal threat if the other person views them as a potential threat? I don't think that's it. A person who knew or should have known that his conduct and appearance would invite a threat of force from an unoffending other has no right to respond in kind to such a threat - that seems to be it. If that was true then you could shoot every hoodie wearing black person in B'ham. I arrested a guy during spring break like you described above who was from Birmingham for drugs and carrying a concealed firearm. I asked if he had a permit and his response was "Man, I'm from Birmingham, everybody carries a gun, humph (exhale)". It sounds like on some nights they really do try shooting at guys wearing hoodies. |
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Posted: 6/3/2016 5:11:54 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well,if you really want to go that route then he was negligent in the way he approached (Traffic violation for driving the wrong way down an exit ramp), negligent in the way he positioned his car (traffic violation for,blocking the lane of travel, blocking the motorist in) and negligent in the way he "offered help".....not sure you could construe the things he said in the tone he said them as "offering help" However, all the above is out the window as his on scene statement was that he was taking LE action to "investigate". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If Jones did not hear or understand Raja's introduction, then why assume that Raja correctly heard and understood Jones' response? That possibility is consistent with my assertion that Raja thought he identified himself. Raja was not taking an adversarial law enforcement action and was just checking on a stranded motorist. So leaving his badge and vest in the vehicle is not a matter of illegality or negligence and instead is just a policy violation and should have little to no effect on the criminal charges. Every self defense class I've taken and many articles I've read warn against the "halo effect"where you assume that everyone else magically knows you're the good guy. I have not read up on Raja's plainclothes experience or his department's training for plainclothes officers. If it is lacking Jones'estate may have a negligence case against the department. Again, I am speculating based only on the incomplete information available to us. If you tell me you're a cop and you don't have any identification, I won't fucking believe you. Couple that with everything else you're doing and I'll think you're a robber. It's really negligent to forget your badge as a cop. You kind of need it: it's part of your uniform. What law enforcement action was he taking to require that he ID himself as a cop and not just some concerned citizen looking to help a broke down motorist? Well,if you really want to go that route then he was negligent in the way he approached (Traffic violation for driving the wrong way down an exit ramp), negligent in the way he positioned his car (traffic violation for,blocking the lane of travel, blocking the motorist in) and negligent in the way he "offered help".....not sure you could construe the things he said in the tone he said them as "offering help" However, all the above is out the window as his on scene statement was that he was taking LE action to "investigate". He is a EVOC instructor and General Instructor at the local college academy with 800 hours of instruction under his belt. Hope he never taught patrol techniques/tactics to an academy class. |
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Posted: 6/4/2016 8:59:07 AM EDT
[#43]
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He is a EVOC instructor and General Instructor at the local college academy with 800 hours of instruction under his belt. Hope he never taught patrol techniques/tactics to an academy class. I'm about 99% sure the driving portion also includes traffic stops and felony stops. Gonna be hard for him to say he didn't know how to do it "the right way" if you taught it. |
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Posted: 6/4/2016 9:41:11 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm about 99% sure the driving portion also includes traffic stops and felony stops. Gonna be hard for him to say he didn't know how to do it "the right way" if you taught it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
He is a EVOC instructor and General Instructor at the local college academy with 800 hours of instruction under his belt. Hope he never taught patrol techniques/tactics to an academy class. I'm about 99% sure the driving portion also includes traffic stops and felony stops. Gonna be hard for him to say he didn't know how to do it "the right way" if you taught it. By the reasonable officer standard he should have clearly identified himself. His actions were negligent, grossly negligent and resulted in the death of an innocent man. I don't get the murder charge, seems like manslaughter would be appropriate. Raja is very lucky he is still breathing to go to prison. His actions would have gotten him smoked in many situations. Legally smoked. |
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Posted: 6/4/2016 9:43:18 AM EDT
[#45]
Yeah, anybody else who was familiar with a firearm (Jones owned his for 3 days) and it would have been a serious shootout at a minimum.
Possibly someone who was a little quicker on the trigger and more observant and Raja would be dead. |
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