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Posted: 1/8/2021 3:28:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't believe for a moment that they were unaware that he did not have to show ID - I think they were putting him in the car while trying to figure out what they could charge him with and we know that was Sarge's approach. I actually think a lot of cops ARE ignorant of that fact. I think a lot of cops have a sequence of events. 1. The person who called first must be the victim 2. If they called the police it must be a crime 3. Step one for a crime is to demand ID. 4. What? This person is challenging me. Stop and think? Nahh, go to intimidation mode! |
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Posted: 1/8/2021 3:33:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But do you have the right to demand he articulate it to you before you ID yourself, or does he merely have to come up with it after he arrests you for not IDing yourself? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: According to this, that is only the case if the officer has reason to believe you have, are, or about to commit a crime (Reasonable, Articulable Suspicion or RAS). https://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.29v1 But do you have the right to demand he articulate it to you before you ID yourself, or does he merely have to come up with it after he arrests you for not IDing yourself? He need not articulate his RAS for the detention to be found lawful. Which means he can construct RAS after the fact and claim that was in his mind all along. A lot hangs on the individual details of the encounter. If he demands ID and you simply say F off, then likely the refusal to ID charge will stick. If you state something along the lines of "I only ID for a valid detention. I don't think you have a valid detention. What is your RAS" a cop at that point not telling you RAS can be construed as entrapment. |
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Posted: 1/8/2021 3:39:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's the problem with your analogy. An active duty police officer has a constitutional obligation to step in and stop an ongoing civil rights violation, excessive force in particular. And he also has qualified immunity from civil damages from doing so. GD white knight driving by.... not so much. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There is no correlation between the two and you are really reaching with that one. Like I said: try again. No, I would never intervene on a cop's behalf. They're not on the side of law and order. They've proven it time and time again. So if their gang gets jumped by another gang it's not my place to get involved, why the fuck would you?  They've lost my support. I used to respect them and the tough job that they had to do, but now the profession as a whole seems to have lost its moral compass. If I drove on a highway and saw an officer struggling with someone I'd most likely stop and help that officer. Now, if I saw an officer being attacked after trying to enforce some tyrannical unconstitutional act then that's a whole different ball game. And how are you going to know the difference? Who gets to say what's tyrannical and unconstitutional? Sounds like a great plan. So, like the officer at the Boyle Heights Beating, he's going to stand back and do nothing figuring that if someone is in the wrong the courts can step in and retroactively 'fix' the wrong. Here's the problem with your analogy. An active duty police officer has a constitutional obligation to step in and stop an ongoing civil rights violation, excessive force in particular. And he also has qualified immunity from civil damages from doing so. GD white knight driving by.... not so much. Yes, the average person has MULTIPLE reasons to not get involved. First being it's not their lawful duty. Second, as you state, they don't have nearly the legal protection that police do. Yet it seems some blue liners here think that they DESERVE to have citizens step in and help them (and some really decent people have done that) all the while being totally unwilling to do the same if the perpetrator of the crime is a brother in blue. |
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Posted: 1/8/2021 3:45:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So: If I identify myself to a cop who doesn't have RS to ask me for ID, I just threw away my rights and started a fishing trip through whatever records are searchable on his computer. If I fail to identify myself to a cop who does have RS, I commit a crime in many states. If I fail to identify myself to a cop who does not have RS, I protect my rights. But, there is no way of knowing at the time of my compliance or refusal whether the cop has RS, so I can't know if I'm protecting my rights or committing an offense until later. But if I were the guy in the video, I'd feel pretty secure in refusing to comply under the circumstances. First, it varies from state to state. Second the language of these laws often contain words like intent, ability, etc (likely if you couldn't speak but knew ASL, but your hands were cuffed, "failure to ID" wouldn't stick) but that's where you'd need a lawyer familiar with the various details and case law on the subject. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 10:18:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Most cops aren't pigs.
Those cops are pigs. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 11:02:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: White kids are starting to get "The Talk" these days too.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah. I have a 4 and 6 year old. What do you tell your kids after that happens to you and they witness it? How can you tell them with a straight face "you can trust the police"? "Well cops are the good guys, except for the guys that wrongfully arrested and manhandled your dad, and some other ones are bad too, but not all of them, and you never know which ones are the good ones and which are the bad ones because they all wear the same uniform. You have rights, but be careful about exercising them or you might catch a cop on a bad day that wants to jam you up on a power trip. But if something bad happens to you call the police, they might help you, sometimes, if they show up. Or they might shoot our family dog." I was with a friend when he had his CCW stolen out of his locked truck while we were at a bar after work (spare me the "always carry even when it's illegal" for a moment). Call the police, "someone will call you later to take a report, we don't have the manpower to send anyone out." Pass 3 police vehicles sitting on the shoulder looking for speeders on the drive home  . I guess writing speeding tickets is more important than doing anything about a stolen gun that will likely be used in additional crime and added to the "gun violence" statistics. He did get a call the next day, and never heard a thing about it again. I realize recovering a stolen gun is unlikely, but it's fucking impossible if absolutely zero effort is put into it. It's almost like they want a bunch of stolen guns in the wild As others have said, I used to have a lot of respect for the police. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt in murky situations. Now, not so much. @UTex86 I'm in the same boat with two toddlers and I'm having a hard time with how to talk to my kids about police these days. That's even with having Federal, State, and local LEOs in our family. The really scary part is that those LEO family members feel the same way. White kids are starting to get "The Talk" these days too. White kids have been getting the talk for a long time. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 11:03:26 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 1/26/2021 6:55:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But do you have the right to demand he articulate it to you before you ID yourself, or does he merely have to come up with it after he arrests you for not IDing yourself? Ask him ON VIDEO, "Do you suspect me of committing a crime?" Odds are, he'll say "no", or say "suspicion [of nothing he can cite]", admitting that he has no reasonable articulable suspicion OF A CRIME. Video evidence shows that a LOT of cops are just that dumb. And it wins people settlements, and on rare occasions gets the cop demoted or fired. Always try to use your opponent's arrogance against him. The police ARE out to get you. So you should be out to get THEM when necessary. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 7:10:00 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From what I've ascertained from body cam footage of these types of incidents, while there may be no "right" to see a supervisor, the supervisor being present is usually helpful for everyone involved. I can't think of any that I've watched where the supervising officer didn't show when asked. I’ve seen a few where the JBT in question replied that he was the supervisor. 
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Posted: 1/26/2021 7:12:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay, I'll admit it, I don't understand your story. They had a description that matched your son, and a tag number that came back to one of your cars? Unless I misunderstand, that sounds a lot like he did it. Right? And what difference does it make who holds title to the cars? |
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