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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:18:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1) Ukraine has lost roughly 20-25% of its pre-war territory and has suffered an estimated 100K to 200K casualties, depending the source. They're not holding anything off, they're losing -- just not as badly as everyone believed they would at the beginning. 2) The idea that Russia is somehow losing because they haven't rolled into Kiev yet is wishful thinking. Russia is making slow but steady progress, and Ukraine has yet to retake any significant territory in the east. 3) This war is far from over, and the most critical part is coming up this winter: If Europeans freeze in the dark because of anti-Russian sanctions then you're going to suddenly see a change in EU policy towards Ukraine, one that favors a negotiated settlement that allows Russia to keep the Donbass, Crimea, and everything else it can seize between now and then. Saying that Ukraine is "holding off" Russia is like looking at the halftime score of Super Bowl LI and concluding the Falcons were going to win big. Umm, Russia has lost area around Izyum. Yes in total Russia has taken more area in the east in the same time frame but you’re wrong that Ukraine hasn’t made any gains. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:18:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been quite impressed with the progress that Russia has made against The Ukraine. Despite having been trained, armed, and funded by Nato for the past 8 years the Ukrainians are having a hard time slowing down the Russians much less repel them. The aid given to Ukraine has far surpassed the military budget for the entire Russian Army, yet the results haven't changed much on the ground. I can't imagine the number of casualties the US Military would have suffered if the Iraqis or the Afghanis would have received the same support The Ukraine has. Another thing that has me impressed is the speed at which incompetent military commanders are replaced when they screw up. Here in the US not only has no one been held accountable for the absolute failures that were the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the only ones that faced any sort of repercussions were those who spoke out such as Lt Col Stuart Scheller. Hell the troops that refused the Covid Vaccine faced more accountability than our incompetent military and political leadership. A question for all you boomers though, has wartime propaganda always been this bad? It seems like every Ukraine war thread devolves into a shitshow of epic proportions and propaganda from both the Ukraine shills and Russian shills are constantly being proven wrong. They're being replaced because they're dying. click. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:20:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They certainly did not we went where we pleased. And got supplied by Taliban protected convoys we paid millions to, so we funded their final offensive to take Afghanistan back. 40 years dicking around in that country got us jack squat and debt. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:21:09 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Commies suck Only reason they are relevant is oil and nukes. and selling shit loads of weapons to third worlders which their shitty show of an operation will now costs them arm sales. Instead of Desert Storming it they opted for a Dollar tree operation and only sub Saharan Africans seem impressed. Their aviation sales are going to become comical soon. But maybe I’ll eat my words and India will buy more 
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:22:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know. Why spend more, that makes it better? Have we ever been in this much debt before? Answer: NO So while I root for the Ukraine people themselves, Europe needs to be paying those bills. NOT US. All that said putin is evil commie filth. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Russia has junk poorly maintained equipment, fetal alcohol syndrome conscripts. Ukraine has western weapons and "advisors" and first world educated troops I hate putin, I hate that war. I hate us giving away money we don't have also.... How much money have we spent in the cold war, how much on nuclear development over the last 70 years ? Have we ever been in this much debt before? Answer: NO So while I root for the Ukraine people themselves, Europe needs to be paying those bills. NOT US. All that said putin is evil commie filth. If you can spend money to crumble your nearest enemy without having to put boots on the ground "Wink Wink" it's worth it. Who does Russia have more nukes aimed at, us or Europe? |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:24:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can spend money to crumble your nearest enemy without having to put boots on the ground "Wink Wink" it's worth it. Who does Russia have more nukes aimed at, us or Europe? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Russia has junk poorly maintained equipment, fetal alcohol syndrome conscripts. Ukraine has western weapons and "advisors" and first world educated troops I hate putin, I hate that war. I hate us giving away money we don't have also.... How much money have we spent in the cold war, how much on nuclear development over the last 70 years ? Have we ever been in this much debt before? Answer: NO So while I root for the Ukraine people themselves, Europe needs to be paying those bills. NOT US. All that said putin is evil commie filth. If you can spend money to crumble your nearest enemy without having to put boots on the ground "Wink Wink" it's worth it. Who does Russia have more nukes aimed at, us or Europe? I am good that we can politely disagree over this issue. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:24:18 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:24:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: and selling shit loads of weapons to third worlders which their shitty show of an operation will now costs them arm sales. Instead of Desert Storming it they opted for a Dollar tree operation and only sub Saharan Africans seem impressed. Their aviation sales are going to become comical soon. But maybe I’ll eat my words and India will buy more Has there ever been an arms sales that took efficacy into account? |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:25:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really? They really are evacuating the area. If Russia can take and hold it is a decidedly different question. Russia already has a decent chunk of separatists in the area and it's within the conceivable range of Russia being able to supply troops for an extended period. My guess is Russia eventually gets Donbas at an astronomical cost and then pretends that was their victory goal all along. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:27:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How did Afghanistan hold us off for 20 years? Its like getting a 40k home that needs 1.2 trillion in repairs. Smart folks would have gave it away after the first 5-10 years, America isn't very smart. The moment we killed OBL there should have been a parade as we flew all our soldiers home. US had 4300 KIA in 20 yrs, Russia had that many in a month. Thugs in Chicago have a better kill count than the Taliban in Afghanistan. Hell motorcycles kill more Americans than the Taliban in the last 20 years. Afghanistan was a very expensive range with live targets. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:28:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Size don’t matter?
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:28:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ukrainians are using bio lab crested super soldiers. Plus they are supposedly te most corrupt nation on the planet, which must give them some kind of unfair advantage.  It’s tough to be a Putin lover these days. 
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:30:42 PM EDT
[#13]
I dunno. Could it be half the world is giving them money and weapons? Where would they be without all those anti tank missiles and stingers?
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:30:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would you have believed that Ukraine would wipe out most of the Black Sea air support, deep inside Crimea? If they can't translate it into a real victory then it was just a propaganda coup, similar to bombing the Russians off Snake Island. I don't listen to either side's propaganda: I pay attention to what's actually happening on the ground, and in that regard Russia still occupies Kherson. And Severodonetsk. And Lysychansk. And Mariupol. And is still slowly advancing. Retake those cities -- actually, just retake Kherson -- and I'll believe Ukraine is winning. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:31:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has there ever been an arms sales that took efficacy into account? For third worlders like Venezuela, Iran and Sudan not really but for non pariah states with some cash it can. Those countries can’t afford or trade for more expensive shit like subs, aviation and missiles. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:32:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They tried to roll into Kiev. Failed miserably. It cost them the credibility of the Russian Army. He fired the generals responsible and the Russians changed strategy and have been largely successful since then. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:33:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any day now when they are really getting their ass kicked they will send in the A team. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lowly civilian perspective:
Any day now when they are really getting their ass kicked they will send in the A team. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:34:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did we roll artillery and knock down each city grid by grid square? Russia took 3x time the casualties and were in Afghanistan half the time of the US. We don't win wars because there is no profit in it. Wars are not made for conquest anymore, it's used to test weapons and thin populations. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:34:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They really are evacuating the area. If Russia can take and hold it is a decidedly different question. Russia already has a decent chunk of separatists in the area and it's within the conceivable range of Russia being able to supply troops for an extended period. My guess is Russia eventually gets Donbas at an astronomical cost and then pretends that was their victory goal all along. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Really? They really are evacuating the area. If Russia can take and hold it is a decidedly different question. Russia already has a decent chunk of separatists in the area and it's within the conceivable range of Russia being able to supply troops for an extended period. My guess is Russia eventually gets Donbas at an astronomical cost and then pretends that was their victory goal all along. You really think Russia is able to supply troops for an extended period? No shit? |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:35:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We didn't want Afghanistan Its like getting a 40k home that needs 1.2 trillion in repairs. Smart folks would have gave it away after the first 5-10 years, America isn't very smart. The moment we killed OBL there should have been a parade as we flew all our soldiers home. US had 4300 KIA in 20 yrs, Russia had that many in a month. Thugs in Chicago have a better kill count than the Taliban in Afghanistan. Hell motorcycles kill more Americans than the Taliban in the last 20 years. Afghanistan was a very expensive range with live targets. In Clausewitzean terms, they won. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:35:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you can spend money to crumble your nearest enemy without having to put boots on the ground "Wink Wink" it's worth it. Who does Russia have more nukes aimed at, us or Europe? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Russia has junk poorly maintained equipment, fetal alcohol syndrome conscripts. Ukraine has western weapons and "advisors" and first world educated troops I hate putin, I hate that war. I hate us giving away money we don't have also.... How much money have we spent in the cold war, how much on nuclear development over the last 70 years ? Have we ever been in this much debt before? Answer: NO So while I root for the Ukraine people themselves, Europe needs to be paying those bills. NOT US. All that said putin is evil commie filth. If you can spend money to crumble your nearest enemy without having to put boots on the ground "Wink Wink" it's worth it. Who does Russia have more nukes aimed at, us or Europe? Joe Dirt describing his strategy for buying that '69 Cuda listed in car trader...... |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:35:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am good that we can politely disagree over this issue. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Russia has junk poorly maintained equipment, fetal alcohol syndrome conscripts. Ukraine has western weapons and "advisors" and first world educated troops I hate putin, I hate that war. I hate us giving away money we don't have also.... How much money have we spent in the cold war, how much on nuclear development over the last 70 years ? Have we ever been in this much debt before? Answer: NO So while I root for the Ukraine people themselves, Europe needs to be paying those bills. NOT US. All that said putin is evil commie filth. If you can spend money to crumble your nearest enemy without having to put boots on the ground "Wink Wink" it's worth it. Who does Russia have more nukes aimed at, us or Europe? I am good that we can politely disagree over this issue. It's good brother. 
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:37:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doesn't matter: The Taliban still run Afghanistan. Just like they did on 9/11, but now with MOAR advanced weapons. In Clausewitzean terms, they won. Comically those same shit bags can’t even get rid of isis-K or prevent bombings in Kabul this month. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:38:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doesn't matter: The Taliban still run Afghanistan. Just like they did on 9/11, but now with MOAR advanced weapons. In Clausewitzean terms, they won. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We didn't want Afghanistan Its like getting a 40k home that needs 1.2 trillion in repairs. Smart folks would have gave it away after the first 5-10 years, America isn't very smart. The moment we killed OBL there should have been a parade as we flew all our soldiers home. US had 4300 KIA in 20 yrs, Russia had that many in a month. Thugs in Chicago have a better kill count than the Taliban in Afghanistan. Hell motorcycles kill more Americans than the Taliban in the last 20 years. Afghanistan was a very expensive range with live targets. In Clausewitzean terms, they won. How is that victory, “in Clausewitzean terms”? |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:38:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really think Russia is able to supply troops for an extended period? No shit? We've been told by US/UK intelligence that they are on their last legs every month since the invasion began. When is this imminent collapse going to happen? |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:39:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: History has taught us Russia will send thousands more to be cannon fodder and not give it a second thought. A sad but workable strategy in the past. It’s birth rate {Ukraine is worse} today isn’t conducive to that kind of losses in the long term - to be fair all of Europe is in the shit end of birth rates just some worse than others |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:41:25 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:42:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is that victory, "in Clausewitzean terms"? Quote HistoryQuoted: How is that victory, "in Clausewitzean terms"? If you want to overcome your enemy you must match your effort against his power of resistance. . . . But the enemy will do the same; competition will again result and, in pure theory, it must again force you both to extremes |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:42:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay, well exactly when are they going to run out of ammo and weapons? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You really think Russia is able to supply troops for an extended period? No shit? They have no more precision guided weapons. We've been told by US/UK intelligence that they are on their last legs every month since the invasion began. When is this imminent collapse going to happen? You claimed that “Russia is able to supply troops for an extended period” How? |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:44:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really think Russia is able to supply troops for an extended period? No shit? Russia has taken roughly 14,000 casualties a month KIA and WIA combined. To hold until say next February they need at least 98,000 more men to stay at current levels. I think they can toss 100k more people into the grinder to resolve a matter of national pride. Eta: 100k is like a 20th of their reserves. It's not some crazy number. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:44:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the sense that it doesn't matter that the Taliban were losers who buggered boys and goats and couldn't shoot straight. They had the greater will to win, so they won per Clausewitz: They wanted it more. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How is that victory, "in Clausewitzean terms"? If you want to overcome your enemy you must match your effort against his power of resistance. . . . But the enemy will do the same; competition will again result and, in pure theory, it must again force you both to extremes That’s the shittiest interpretation of Clausewitz I have ever read. For that to be even remotely apt, our goal in Afghanistan would have had to have been to hold and control the country forever. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:46:38 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia has junk poorly maintained equipment, fetal alcohol syndrome conscripts. Ukraine has western weapons and "advisors" and first world educated troops Don't forget low levels of education, tuberculosis, HIV, and a demographic cliff. Still, they are doing massive damage, it would seem. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:46:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the shittiest interpretation of Clausewitz I have ever read. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:47:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope and we still did better than the Russians. Russia took 3x time the casualties and were in Afghanistan half the time of the US. We don't win wars because there is no profit in it. Wars are not made for conquest anymore, it's used to test weapons and thin populations. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Did we roll artillery and knock down each city grid by grid square? Russia took 3x time the casualties and were in Afghanistan half the time of the US. We don't win wars because there is no profit in it. Wars are not made for conquest anymore, it's used to test weapons and thin populations. Testing weapons and thinning populations. In retrospect are you ok with that? Do you have regrets about that? |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:50:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So fucking derp op. Do better. He can’t. Psychosis caused by perpetual lack of sleep related to the Bear. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:53:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I dunno. Could it be half the world is giving them money and weapons? Where would they be without all those anti tank missiles and stingers? Funny how this is never acknowledged as the only reason. |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:55:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A sad but workable strategy in the past. It's birth rate {Ukraine is worse} today isn't conducive to that kind of losses in the long term - to be fair all of Europe is in the shit end of birth rates just some worse than others Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: History has taught us Russia will send thousands more to be cannon fodder and not give it a second thought. A sad but workable strategy in the past. It's birth rate {Ukraine is worse} today isn't conducive to that kind of losses in the long term - to be fair all of Europe is in the shit end of birth rates just some worse than others |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:58:39 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL you're hilarious. March 15: Russia "days away" from running out of resources. Source: Military "experts" March 24: Russia running out of precision-guided weapons. Source: Pentagon June 11: Russia still running out of precision-guided weapons. Source: British intelligence June 23rd: Russia soon to run out of soldiers. Source: British Government Obviously Russia is still fighting. So when is this tipping point you so confidently predict going to happen? |
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Posted: 8/11/2022 11:58:45 PM EDT
[#39]
OP wear is the pole?
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:01:12 AM EDT
[#40]
Look, I'm willing to keep an open mind about Ukraine's Imminent Glorious Victory.
Take Kherson, and I'll believe it's possible. Nothing else matters at this point. |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:02:42 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP wear is the pole? Your raccoon friend is still blowing it it, hurry up and get some. |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:07:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s the shittiest interpretation of Clausewitz I have ever read. For that to be even remotely apt, our goal in Afghanistan would have had to have been to hold and control the country forever. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: How is that victory, "in Clausewitzean terms"? If you want to overcome your enemy you must match your effort against his power of resistance. . . . But the enemy will do the same; competition will again result and, in pure theory, it must again force you both to extremes That’s the shittiest interpretation of Clausewitz I have ever read. For that to be even remotely apt, our goal in Afghanistan would have had to have been to hold and control the country forever. How does one adhere to their sense of duty when being directed by ineffectual and weak masters? I mean it. How do you maintain your sanity and honor bound convictions when inserted into amazingly complex and perhaps nebulous conflicts? |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:10:21 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Comically those same shit bags can’t even get rid of isis-K or prevent bombings in Kabul this month. Competing caliphates. |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:11:36 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Proxy war. Without US military aid Ukraine would have folded long ago. This is the correct answer. Russia has a shitty military as well. Yes, they have very capable technologies but can’t afford to build them. For example, they have a great Gen 5 fighter, but they can’t afford to build more than the two they did. They can’t afford to build an adequate naval force. It’s like the guy down the street who is broke and has massive credit card debt and keeps trying to buy a nice car but it gets repoed so he has to drive a rusted out 1992 Honda Civic. That’s Russia. |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:12:29 AM EDT
[#45]
The propaganda-believing naivety in this thread is astounding
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:13:43 AM EDT
[#46]
The russian military sucks and has always sucked
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:14:16 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty sure having VDV, Wagner Group, and Chechen SOF units getting chewed up isn't "holding back." |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:14:25 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How does one adhere to their sense of duty when being directed by ineffectual and weak masters? I mean it. How do you maintain your sanity and honor bound convictions when inserted into amazingly complex and perhaps nebulous conflicts? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How is that victory, "in Clausewitzean terms"? If you want to overcome your enemy you must match your effort against his power of resistance. . . . But the enemy will do the same; competition will again result and, in pure theory, it must again force you both to extremes That’s the shittiest interpretation of Clausewitz I have ever read. For that to be even remotely apt, our goal in Afghanistan would have had to have been to hold and control the country forever. How does one adhere to their sense of duty when being directed by ineffectual and weak masters? I mean it. How do you maintain your sanity and honor bound convictions when inserted into amazingly complex and perhaps nebulous conflicts? Em oh en e why With a splash of n a r c i s s i s t ? |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:22:12 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia military not as good as expected. Western intelligence and weapons assistance better than expected. Result: prolonged war, more death, more profit (financially and politically) for the globalist warmongers. Cost: lots of unnecessary death, misery, and added potential for energy and food shortages to further the globalist agenda. Evil at play all around. You got it wrong. The Russian Government is at fault. So is the Russian population for failing to govern their government, it's their right and responsibility to govern their government, they failed to do so. |
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Posted: 8/12/2022 12:30:41 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your raccoon friend is still blowing it it, hurry up and get some. Your obsession with me is very flattering  
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