User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 1:55:26 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: To be fair to Cooper, look @ what was available when he came up w/ the concept: M855 didn't exist, nor did 1:9" twist AR bbls The AR-10 was a long-forgotten near obsolete Portuguese battle rifle The FAL was still in service in Rhodesia Removable magazines were not fully trusted for dangerous game rifles Stripper clips were widely available and still used on sporterized milsurp hunting rifles The First Scout Rifle Conference was in 1983 and the Steyr Scout was first sold in 1998. That means the Scout Rifle is actually a newer weapon than the M16A2 or Steyr AUG. While there may not have been a lightweight 7.62 semi-auto readily available on the civilian market, there wasn't a Scout Rifle either. A truly forward-thinking man designing a "do it all" rifle in the 1980's shouldn't have been concentrating on bolt guns and stripper clips. Literally every aspect of the Scout Rifle concept beyond its advocacy of low weight is an anachronistic joke. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 1:59:17 AM EST
[#2]
  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 6:18:53 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By backbencher: To be fair to Cooper, look @ what was available when he came up w/ the concept: M855 didn't exist, nor did 1:9" twist AR bbls The AR-10 was a long-forgotten near obsolete Portuguese battle rifle The FAL was still in service in Rhodesia Removable magazines were not fully trusted for dangerous game rifles Stripper clips were widely available and still used on sporterized milsurp hunting rifles Post WWII, there were a lot of men who had used magazine fed weapons on dangerous animals. I’m not certain what the problem is. They were in the infantry and not on cruisers and such. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:12:03 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lomshek: So really what you're saying is a light, handy rifle in an adequate caliber for the job is nice to have. I'll take one with a quality modern scope instead of a long eye relief 2.5X scope. I loved reading Cooper's writings back in the day and thought the scout rifle concept was cool. It's a neat concept and will be a fun project gun to assemble in each person's interpretation of Cooper's vision. Believing the dogmatic interpretation of the scout rifle following Cooper's exact specifications is going to be a rifle that out performs modern rifles is kidding ourselves. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lomshek: Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44: Scout rifles are awesome. I wouldn't carry one if I thought there was a possibility of having to fight humans, but for almost every other practical rifle purpose, it's perfection. Hump a rifle around the woods, up and down hills for a while, and you'll value every single ounce trimmed off your rifle. So really what you're saying is a light, handy rifle in an adequate caliber for the job is nice to have. I'll take one with a quality modern scope instead of a long eye relief 2.5X scope. I loved reading Cooper's writings back in the day and thought the scout rifle concept was cool. It's a neat concept and will be a fun project gun to assemble in each person's interpretation of Cooper's vision. Believing the dogmatic interpretation of the scout rifle following Cooper's exact specifications is going to be a rifle that out performs modern rifles is kidding ourselves. Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying. I have no use for forward mounted optics either. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:42:43 AM EST
[#5]
The idea of a light-weight hunting rifle is sound.
The idea that you're going to use it to fight off Nazis is not. Oh, and the forward-mounted optics used in most iterations suck. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:51:40 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARCNA442: The First Scout Rifle Conference was in 1983 and the Steyr Scout was first sold in 1998. That means the Scout Rifle is actually a newer weapon than the M16A2 or Steyr AUG. While there may not have been a lightweight 7.62 semi-auto readily available on the civilian market, there wasn't a Scout Rifle either. A truly forward-thinking man designing a "do it all" rifle in the 1980's shouldn't have been concentrating on bolt guns and stripper clips. Literally every aspect of the Scout Rifle concept beyond its advocacy of low weight is an anachronistic joke. Add his advocacy of low power optics and I'll agree. I think he came up w/ the concept earlier than 1983, though. Aimless really sums it up best. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:04:29 AM EST
[#7]
Well, Cooper certainly filled his monthly column inches and got to shoot a bunch of stuff for his efforts
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:04:31 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sharpshooter: No sir it did not, they are not really specifically intended for the same purpose. A properly set up scout rifle really can't do the same job as well as a mountain rifle and vice versa. A properly set up mountain rifle is what Cooper was trying to accomplish with his concept. Modern day optics makes the desire for the scout rifle and it’s shit optic with it’s poor light collection and shit eye box a bad choice most every day and circumstance over a mountain rifle with a nice 3-9x. The mountaineer rifle will be lighter and carried on field magnification just as quick. The scout concept works if youre riding a Range River around Kruger and shooting off the hood or stalking in a few hundred yards. I’ve yet to see hunting where I’d ever take a scout over a mountain rifle. especially if I’m hunting near dawn or dusk that day which is usually the case. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:10:19 AM EST
[#9]
My perception is the concept is valid with a red dot optic, not a low power scope.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:10:35 AM EST
[#10]
 scout rifle.Either URGI pinned and welded or the PSA FN barreled 14.7 pinned and welded upper, with any 1-4/1-6 and sling is a scout rifle. Can snap shoot. And mag dump. Bolt gun with forward mounted scope? What is this, the 1930s? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:13:40 AM EST
[#11]
I'm certain the Colonel would be modifying his views given the AR platform explosion in capabilities.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:21:47 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By broadrunarms: I'm certain the Colonel would be modifying his views given the AR platform explosion in capabilities. His choice of a bolt gun was due in to part to restrictions on semi autos in some countries so your certainty is probably wrong. Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying his concern should be yours, but it may be valid for our neighbors to the north. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:23:43 AM EST
[#13]
Quote History90% of gun owners are LARPers, and if you're gonna LARP, might as well pick a fun scenario straight from Indiana Jones.  Kharn |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:46:59 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BLUEBOY: My perception is the concept is valid with a red dot optic, not a low power scope. Coopers own design with Steyr broke at least 2 of rules/tenants. As a result I believe the problem that people/followers/cult fanatics have with adherence to that concept is their own and not Coopers. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 9:21:05 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JRJ: ...Modern day optics makes the desire for the scout rifle and it’s shit optic with it’s poor light collection and shit eye box a bad choice most every day and circumstance over a mountain rifle with a nice 3-9x. The mountaineer rifle will be lighter and carried on field magnification just as quick. ...I’ve yet to see hunting where I’d ever take a scout over a mountain rifle. especially if I’m hunting near dawn or dusk that day which is usually the case. Agreed on all points. Fudd statement of the day: a mid-powered variable scope on a bolt action in a common and moderately powerful cartridge is the best choice of rifle for hunting for probably 95% of people. What you've stated is also the reason I struggle to understand the LPVO craze (this is where I'm going to go off on a rant of sorts). Sure, it's nice to be able to do red dot things with a scope but for actually using magnification to reach out and touch things they are outclassed badly even by much cheaper optics. Add in the fact that their light gathering abilities are shit and it's a wrap. Pick a random 2-7, 3-9 or 4-12 with even decent glass and at half the price point and it will put the LPVO to shame for actual field usage. Maybe it is everyone's desire to be a Tier Juan "operator" that sends them towards LPVOs, but people who actually use the gear in field situations for hunting (dusk and dawn conditions especially) get it. Anyone who gets their panties in a bunch over this statement probably wants to justify or defend their expensive LPVO that (if they're being honest with themselves) limits their abilities under the guise of being "versatile." Buy them, use them, enjoy them, but please don't lie to yourself. ETA: LPVO's certainly have a purpose on a "do all"/general purpose rifle. Everyone should own one. Everyone should also be well aware that a "do all" rifle is going to let you down in many circumstances simply due to the fact that it isn't optimized for any particular task. Murphy's law and all... *i post this knowing it will |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 9:28:21 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LeadBreakfast: Agreed on all points. Fudd statement of the day: a mid-powered variable scope on a bolt action in a common and moderately powerful cartridge is the best choice of rifle for hunting for probably 95% of people. What you've stated is also the reason I struggle to understand the LPVO craze (this is where I'm going to go off on a rant of sorts). Sure, it's nice to be able to do red dot things with a scope but for actually using magnification to reach out and touch things they are outclassed badly even by much cheaper optics. Add in the fact that their light gathering abilities are shit and it's a wrap. Pick a random 2-7, 3-9 or 4-12 with even decent glass and at half the price point and it will put the LPVO to shame for actual field usage. Maybe it is everyone's desire to be a Tier Juan "operator" that sends them towards LPVOs, but people who actually use the gear in field situations for hunting (dusk and dawn conditions especially) get it. Anyone who gets their panties in a bunch over this statement probably wants to justify or defend their expensive LPVO that (if they're being honest with themselves) limits their abilities under the guise of being "versatile." Buy them, use them, enjoy them, but please don't lie to yourself. ETA: LPVO's certainly have a purpose on a "do all"/general purpose rifle. Everyone should own one. Everyone should also be well aware that a "do all" rifle is going to let you down in many circumstances simply due to the fact that it isn't optimized for any particular task. Murphy's law and all... *i post this knowing it will Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LeadBreakfast: Originally Posted By JRJ: ...Modern day optics makes the desire for the scout rifle and it’s shit optic with it’s poor light collection and shit eye box a bad choice most every day and circumstance over a mountain rifle with a nice 3-9x. The mountaineer rifle will be lighter and carried on field magnification just as quick. ...I’ve yet to see hunting where I’d ever take a scout over a mountain rifle. especially if I’m hunting near dawn or dusk that day which is usually the case. Agreed on all points. Fudd statement of the day: a mid-powered variable scope on a bolt action in a common and moderately powerful cartridge is the best choice of rifle for hunting for probably 95% of people. What you've stated is also the reason I struggle to understand the LPVO craze (this is where I'm going to go off on a rant of sorts). Sure, it's nice to be able to do red dot things with a scope but for actually using magnification to reach out and touch things they are outclassed badly even by much cheaper optics. Add in the fact that their light gathering abilities are shit and it's a wrap. Pick a random 2-7, 3-9 or 4-12 with even decent glass and at half the price point and it will put the LPVO to shame for actual field usage. Maybe it is everyone's desire to be a Tier Juan "operator" that sends them towards LPVOs, but people who actually use the gear in field situations for hunting (dusk and dawn conditions especially) get it. Anyone who gets their panties in a bunch over this statement probably wants to justify or defend their expensive LPVO that (if they're being honest with themselves) limits their abilities under the guise of being "versatile." Buy them, use them, enjoy them, but please don't lie to yourself. ETA: LPVO's certainly have a purpose on a "do all"/general purpose rifle. Everyone should own one. Everyone should also be well aware that a "do all" rifle is going to let you down in many circumstances simply due to the fact that it isn't optimized for any particular task. Murphy's law and all... *i post this knowing it will Why can't they make a LPVO with a larger objective to solve the light gathering problem? Kharn |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 10:52:40 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LeadBreakfast: Agreed on all points. Fudd statement of the day: a mid-powered variable scope on a bolt action in a common and moderately powerful cartridge is the best choice of rifle for hunting for probably 95% of people. What you've stated is also the reason I struggle to understand the LPVO craze (this is where I'm going to go off on a rant of sorts). Sure, it's nice to be able to do red dot things with a scope but for actually using magnification to reach out and touch things they are outclassed badly even by much cheaper optics. Add in the fact that their light gathering abilities are shit and it's a wrap. Pick a random 2-7, 3-9 or 4-12 with even decent glass and at half the price point and it will put the LPVO to shame for actual field usage. Maybe it is everyone's desire to be a Tier Juan "operator" that sends them towards LPVOs, but people who actually use the gear in field situations for hunting (dusk and dawn conditions especially) get it. Anyone who gets their panties in a bunch over this statement probably wants to justify or defend their expensive LPVO that (if they're being honest with themselves) limits their abilities under the guise of being "versatile." Buy them, use them, enjoy them, but please don't lie to yourself. ETA: LPVO's certainly have a purpose on a "do all"/general purpose rifle. Everyone should own one. Everyone should also be well aware that a "do all" rifle is going to let you down in many circumstances simply due to the fact that it isn't optimized for any particular task. Murphy's law and all... *i post this knowing it will Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LeadBreakfast: Originally Posted By JRJ: ...Modern day optics makes the desire for the scout rifle and it’s shit optic with it’s poor light collection and shit eye box a bad choice most every day and circumstance over a mountain rifle with a nice 3-9x. The mountaineer rifle will be lighter and carried on field magnification just as quick. ...I’ve yet to see hunting where I’d ever take a scout over a mountain rifle. especially if I’m hunting near dawn or dusk that day which is usually the case. Agreed on all points. Fudd statement of the day: a mid-powered variable scope on a bolt action in a common and moderately powerful cartridge is the best choice of rifle for hunting for probably 95% of people. What you've stated is also the reason I struggle to understand the LPVO craze (this is where I'm going to go off on a rant of sorts). Sure, it's nice to be able to do red dot things with a scope but for actually using magnification to reach out and touch things they are outclassed badly even by much cheaper optics. Add in the fact that their light gathering abilities are shit and it's a wrap. Pick a random 2-7, 3-9 or 4-12 with even decent glass and at half the price point and it will put the LPVO to shame for actual field usage. Maybe it is everyone's desire to be a Tier Juan "operator" that sends them towards LPVOs, but people who actually use the gear in field situations for hunting (dusk and dawn conditions especially) get it. Anyone who gets their panties in a bunch over this statement probably wants to justify or defend their expensive LPVO that (if they're being honest with themselves) limits their abilities under the guise of being "versatile." Buy them, use them, enjoy them, but please don't lie to yourself. ETA: LPVO's certainly have a purpose on a "do all"/general purpose rifle. Everyone should own one. Everyone should also be well aware that a "do all" rifle is going to let you down in many circumstances simply due to the fact that it isn't optimized for any particular task. Murphy's law and all... *i post this knowing it will LVPOs are not innately worse at light transmission., it’s just the small objective limits the max magnification before the loss of useable exit pupil. The amount of light that meets the eye is mainly a product of exit pupil. Human eye dilation is at most 7mm, and that’s for a young, 20 year old eye. Even assuming a young operator with outstanding vision, having a 20mm objective common to many LPVOs, at any magnification under 2.85X the LVPO is gathering all the useable light. So, assuming equivalent glass quality,, coating, etc, a 1-4x20 set at 2.75X and a 2.5-10x44 set at 2.75X would deliver the same light. Older users will gave maximum eye dilation lower than 7mm, so might not notice a difference at even higher magnifications. The value of larger objectives is better exit pupil at higher magnifications. I will agree many LVPOs on the market, particularly 1-6 or 1-8, aren’t great choices for a hunting scope because much if the magnification range means you’ll start losing useful light transmission. But hey aren’t useless, particularly for hunters who are in heavy timber. Personally, my “scout” rifle is an AR-15 in 6.8SPC. It gives all the advantages of the AR platform, and in a caliber that provides a step up on power for hunting purposes (and is deer legal in my state). I started with a 2.5-10x44 scope. This was fine for hunting purposes, but I often kept it dialed down near minimum power, and at the bottom, 2.5X was more than I’d want for close up work. I switched to a Burris MTAC 1.5-6x40. I think this a great general purpose option, with reasonable trade offs. To my eyes, scope is bright for dusk/dawn work at 4X, which is more scope than I need for most hunting situations. At 1.5X I can use the illuminated reticle to “paint” a target, which is about as good as a red dot for me. And if conditions permit, I have 6X on the high end. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 12:03:40 PM EST
[#18]
Military ammunition is really available and rifles in military chamberings will be easy to feed. Unless you are in an area where laws preclude that choice, so, yeah, maybe some selections are hard to find. I suppose that limits some of the world wide opportunities to go scouting about.
The detachable magazines? One doesn't usually get to reload and keep shooting in a herd of elephants, leopard or Cape Buffalo. Other applications? Well proven by then. That's not to say that some implementations aren't done poorly but detachable works. An LPVO doesn't have light gathering problems. When you start moving to higher powers, then you need larger objectives. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 12:09:56 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Exactly. If your rifle loads from a detachable box magazine, there is no reason for a forward mounted scope. And for people who want to “shoot with both eyes open”, a modern, decent quality LPVO with good illumination is going to be far better at shooting with both eyes open than any forward mounted scout scope. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By Stryfe: Originally Posted By Green_Canoe: I've never got the forward mounted scout scope concept. You give up 1/2 your field of view through the scope to provide better access to the action. It's important of your rifle loads from stripper clips. If it doesnt, not so much. But I'm in the camp that scout rifle doesnt need to have a scout mounted scope. So I'm not defending it, I'm just explaining how it could be important in some narrow cases. Look at the 1903A4. Not as an example of a scout rifle. You'd have to single load cartridges, where th '03 itself was fed from strippers. Exactly. If your rifle loads from a detachable box magazine, there is no reason for a forward mounted scope. And for people who want to “shoot with both eyes open”, a modern, decent quality LPVO with good illumination is going to be far better at shooting with both eyes open than any forward mounted scout scope. Bingo. LPVO and box magazines made the whole concept as originally envisioned irrelevant. I still want one, for reasons I cannot justify in any way
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 12:57:33 PM EST
[#20]
Much like every other religion, people are getting twisted up in dogma and specifics. Like all religious dogma, there is much that The Prophet never said, and/or which assumes things that are not true.
Cooper did not say the only true and correct sighting system is a forward mounted low-power scope. What he said is "Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope." Note that everyone (including Ian) who use the forward mounted scope as Cooper's defining characteristic are ignoring what the man actually wrote. Similarly, Cooper did not eliminate detachable magazines from consideration. Indeed, he thought them desirable: "Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary." Finally, an almost universally ignored but very important part of the concept is the sling. The exact type was not specified, only that it be "fast loop-up" type, with CW and Ching types given as examples. Few modern hunters / riflemen actually know how to properly use a sling anymore. They have carrying straps, not slings. It is inarguable that a proper sling, properly used, is a huge benefit when it comes to making hits in the field. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 2:37:06 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PigBat: Much like every other religion, people are getting twisted up in dogma and specifics. Like all religious dogma, there is much that The Prophet never said, and/or which assumes things that are not true. Cooper did not say the only true and correct sighting system is a forward mounted low-power scope. What he said is "Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope." Note that everyone (including Ian) who use the forward mounted scope as Cooper's defining characteristic are ignoring what the man actually wrote. Similarly, Cooper did not eliminate detachable magazines from consideration. Indeed, he thought them desirable: "Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary." Finally, an almost universally ignored but very important part of the concept is the sling. The exact type was not specified, only that it be "fast loop-up" type, with CW and Ching types given as examples. Few modern hunters / riflemen actually know how to properly use a sling anymore. They have carrying straps, not slings. It is inarguable that a proper sling, properly used, is a huge benefit when it comes to making hits in the field. ME: You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. GD: You talk like a f*g and your sh*ts all retarded. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 2:43:44 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TacticalGarand44: Scout rifles are awesome. I wouldn't carry one if I thought there was a possibility of having to fight humans, but for almost every other practical rifle purpose, it's perfection. Hump a rifle around the woods, up and down hills for a while, and you'll value every single ounce trimmed off your rifle. Preach it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 2:47:51 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ME: You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. GD: You talk like a f*g and your sh*ts all retarded. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Much like every other religion, people are getting twisted up in dogma and specifics. Like all religious dogma, there is much that The Prophet never said, and/or which assumes things that are not true. Cooper did not say the only true and correct sighting system is a forward mounted low-power scope. What he said is "Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope." Note that everyone (including Ian) who use the forward mounted scope as Cooper's defining characteristic are ignoring what the man actually wrote. Similarly, Cooper did not eliminate detachable magazines from consideration. Indeed, he thought them desirable: "Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary." Finally, an almost universally ignored but very important part of the concept is the sling. The exact type was not specified, only that it be "fast loop-up" type, with CW and Ching types given as examples. Few modern hunters / riflemen actually know how to properly use a sling anymore. They have carrying straps, not slings. It is inarguable that a proper sling, properly used, is a huge benefit when it comes to making hits in the field. GD: You talk like a f*g and your sh*ts all retarded.  As has been noted before, GD has some brilliant people... but more chattering monkeys going "HUH HUH HUH I NEVER SEED THET B4, SO THET'S STOOPID!!!"  As has been noted in these threads, the concept of a light, handy, powerful rifle is never a bad one; but chimps gotta chimp, I suppose. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 4:40:32 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By swede1986: The idea of a light-weight hunting rifle is sound. The idea that you're going to use it to fight off Nazis is not. Oh, and the forward-mounted optics used in most iterations suck. An all around "practical rifle" concept is very sound (for hunting). The forward mounted optic is however very limiting in its ability to be precise at ranges that a good number of people hunt at these days and in lighting that is less than optimal. Traditionally mounted optics have proven to be superior. This is a 20" .308 and I have run it out to a grand on steel, killed deer, elk, coyotes, jackrabbits etc with it. I have dropped elk at more than 600 yards with a single precise shot. Not something I would even consider with a scout rifle. It takes 5 round mags that have proven to be superbly reliable, and overall the rifle is substantially more practical than a great many other "custom" rifles I have used.     While it is nice to have specific rifles to do very specific tasks, a basic 20" rifle in a medium chambering ( 6.5 cm, 7-08, .308) or even a 22" long action 30-06, or .270 with a mid range optic, mounted in a traditional manner can solve better than 95% of tasks I have seen in the field, in the 40+ years I have been hunting the Rockies. Heck, my primary elk rifle wears a fixed 10 and 95% of ARCOM will tell you tell you can't do crap with a fixed power scope, especially a 10X. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 4:49:15 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PigBat: Much like every other religion, people are getting twisted up in dogma and specifics. Like all religious dogma, there is much that The Prophet never said, and/or which assumes things that are not true. Cooper did not say the only true and correct sighting system is a forward mounted low-power scope. What he said is "Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope." Note that everyone (including Ian) who use the forward mounted scope as Cooper's defining characteristic are ignoring what the man actually wrote. Similarly, Cooper did not eliminate detachable magazines from consideration. Indeed, he thought them desirable: "Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary." Finally, an almost universally ignored but very important part of the concept is the sling. The exact type was not specified, only that it be "fast loop-up" type, with CW and Ching types given as examples. Few modern hunters / riflemen actually know how to properly use a sling anymore. They have carrying straps, not slings. It is inarguable that a proper sling, properly used, is a huge benefit when it comes to making hits in the field. So you're saying that literally any lightweight bolt gun with sling swivels is a Scout Rifle? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 4:55:46 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARCNA442: So you're saying that literally any lightweight bolt gun with sling swivels is a Scout Rifle? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARCNA442: Originally Posted By PigBat: Much like every other religion, people are getting twisted up in dogma and specifics. Like all religious dogma, there is much that The Prophet never said, and/or which assumes things that are not true. Cooper did not say the only true and correct sighting system is a forward mounted low-power scope. What he said is "Sighting system: Typically a forward and low mounted (ahead of the action opening) long eye relief telescope of between 2x and 3x. Reserve iron sights desirable but not necessary. Iron sights of the ghost ring type, without a scope also qualify, as does a low powered conventional position scope." Note that everyone (including Ian) who use the forward mounted scope as Cooper's defining characteristic are ignoring what the man actually wrote. Similarly, Cooper did not eliminate detachable magazines from consideration. Indeed, he thought them desirable: "Action: Magazine fed bolt action. Detachable box magazine and or stripper clip charging is desirable but not necessary." Finally, an almost universally ignored but very important part of the concept is the sling. The exact type was not specified, only that it be "fast loop-up" type, with CW and Ching types given as examples. Few modern hunters / riflemen actually know how to properly use a sling anymore. They have carrying straps, not slings. It is inarguable that a proper sling, properly used, is a huge benefit when it comes to making hits in the field. So you're saying that literally any lightweight bolt gun with sling swivels is a Scout Rifle? How are you using it? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 5:07:55 PM EST
[#27]
I wonder if Steyr had marketed the Scout as a lightweight hunting rifle with convention and EER scope mount options if it would have sold better? Because the rifle is a damn nice rifle and in places like Canada or any ban state it would be my first choice if I couldn't have an AR.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 5:16:05 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lost_River: An all around "practical rifle" concept is very sound (for hunting). The forward mounted optic is however very limiting in its ability to be precise at ranges that a good number of people hunt at these days and in lighting that is less than optimal. Traditionally mounted optics have proven to be superior. This is a 20" .308 and I have run it out to a grand on steel, killed deer, elk, coyotes, jackrabbits etc with it. I have dropped elk at more than 600 yards with a single precise shot. Not something I would even consider with a scout rifle. It takes 5 round mags that have proven to be superbly reliable, and overall the rifle is substantially more practical than a great many other "custom" rifles I have used. https://i.imgur.com/TH12NvO.jpg https://i.imgur.com/UXUaFN7.jpg https://i.imgur.com/dK9Eg2r.jpg https://i.imgur.com/C4wmqRU.jpg While it is nice to have specific rifles to do very specific tasks, a basic 20" rifle in a medium chambering ( 6.5 cm, 7-08, .308) or even a 22" long action 30-06, or .270 with a mid range optic, mounted in a traditional manner can solve better than 95% of tasks I have seen in the field, in the 40+ years I have been hunting the Rockies. Heck, my primary elk rifle wears a fixed 10 and 95% of ARCOM will tell you tell you can't do crap with a fixed power scope, especially a 10X. Its 2020. Fixed powers suck. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 5:22:54 PM EST
[#29]
The video was a good review of the book, which I have, and the Scout Rifle concept.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 5:25:32 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its 2020. Fixed powers suck. I don't think many hunters ever actually change the power on the scope in the field. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 5:26:43 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aimless: I don't think many hunters ever actually change the power on the scope in the field. All the ones I know do. Roll lowest power and zoom in when ya need it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 5:40:31 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ARCNA442: So you're saying that literally any lightweight bolt gun with sling swivels is a Scout Rifle? Maybe. Aside from being lightweight, is it compact? Is it handy*? Is it sufficiently powerful? Does it actually have a proper sling that allows you to loop up quickly? Can you make rapid, first round hits with it on appropriately-sized targets at reasonable distances? Then it probably qualifies. I am not a guru of The Scout Rifle; I'm not sure anyone should hold themselves out as such. But I find the idea very satisfying, and have since Cooper first postulated it way back when. It's a concept, and the ideal form morphed somewhat as the concept jelled. Unfortunately, scout rifle "dogma" has solidified certain things Cooper wrote, thereby often missing the forest for the trees. Add to that the human trait of over-simplification of damn near every concept, and we have "purists" decrying every trivial departure from their own particular "ideal". If you take the time to read what Cooper wrote, you'll find that he proposed a rather broad concept of a lightweight, compact, handy rifle with reasonable power. For example, rifles as disparate as the Win 94 Carbine and No. 5 L-E "Jungle Carbine" as issued would fit the bill. Where folks get caught up is in Cooper's thoughts on approaching the ideal form of this rifle. Where Cooper used words like "typically", "e.g.", "nominally", "ideally", etc., the self-appointed purists use words like "does", "must", etc. *That "handy" thing is something Cooper addressed at length early on. IIRC, "handiness" came from the rifle balancing at the front of the action, and a very short vertical distance between the firing hand and the bore line. My recollection is that he specifically noted that rifles like the M-16 with a separate pistol grip were significantly less handy that those like the 1903 or Mauser. Having a compact rifle, short at both ends, would add to the handiness, as well as reducing weight. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 6:27:43 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RePp: Its 2020. Fixed powers suck. Yeah I have noticed it has limited my ability to kill game...    or even sneak up on shit. It really seems to handicap me in the field..  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 6:43:14 PM EST
[#34]
So many straw man arguments.
Nobody was hunting Nazis on dinos from the Hollow Earth. Scout was supposed to be a light, handy rifle, its spiritual ancestor the prewar Mannlicher, capable of taking anything in North America on four legs or two, useful in wilderness or as a truck gun. Cooper even wrote that a lever-action could serve in ban states (he was a WWG co-pilot fan). Most of the experimental scout rifles built for him and coterie prior to the Steyr didn’t make weight or length either. It’s a concept, not an in or out club based on the numbers. Consider how radical this was in an era of Weatherby and other long-barreled bolt guns with big optics. Also, even with M855 hitting the market, the AR15 wasn’t yet America’s Rifle during the 80s and 90s; it was uncommon and relatively expensive, with limited parts support (Bushmaster!), of uncertain quality (Olympic, Essential) and in a small caliber, illegal in many states for taking deer. Finally, people use the term “scout” as if it’s an unrealistic fantasy, or an unlikely one. Let’s examine the rifle selected for people... running around in wilderness, for military scouting purposes, independently, who might need to hunt or address threats from bears... Over length, weight, no scout scope, but ghost ring, detach mag, .308... and it’s a bolt-action. Yeah.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 6:46:42 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OODA_Loop: So many straw man arguments. Nobody was hunting Nazis on dinos from the Hollow Earth. Scout was supposed to be a light, handy rifle, its spiritual ancestor the prewar Mannlicher, capable of taking anything in North America on four legs or two, useful in wilderness or as a truck gun. Cooper even wrote that a lever-action could serve in ban states (he was a WWG co-pilot fan). Most of the experimental scout rifles built for him and coterie prior to the Steyr didn’t make weight or length either. It’s a concept, not an in or out club based on the numbers. Consider how radical this was in an era of Weatherby and other long-barreled bolt guns with big optics. Also, even with M855 hitting the market, the AR15 wasn’t yet America’s Rifle during the 80s and 90s; it was uncommon and relatively expensive, with limited parts support (Bushmaster!), of uncertain quality (Olympic, Essential) and in a small caliber, illegal in many states for taking deer. Finally, people use the term “scout” as if it’s an unrealistic fantasy, or an unlikely one. Let’s examine the rifle selected for people... running around in wilderness, for military scouting purposes, independently, who might need to hunt or address threats from bears... Over length, weight, no scout scope, but ghost ring, detach mag, .308... and it’s a bolt-action. Yeah. https://www.mbcradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/searson2-1080x675.jpg I'd love to own one of those someday. I'm sure by the time I can afford to drop the kind of coin they ask today, they'll be collectible, and even more expensive. They are possibly the Bolt Action Rifle taken to its highest possible form. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 6:49:21 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So many straw man arguments. Nobody was hunting Nazis on dinos from the Hollow Earth. Scout was supposed to be a light, handy rifle, its spiritual ancestor the prewar Mannlicher, capable of taking anything in North America on four legs or two, useful in wilderness or as a truck gun. Cooper even wrote that a lever-action could serve in ban states (he was a WWG co-pilot fan). Most of the experimental scout rifles built for him and coterie prior to the Steyr didn't make weight or length either. It's a concept, not an in or out club based on the numbers. Consider how radical this was in an era of Weatherby and other long-barreled bolt guns with big optics. Also, even with M855 hitting the market, the AR15 wasn't yet America's Rifle during the 80s and 90s; it was uncommon and relatively expensive, with limited parts support (Bushmaster!), of uncertain quality (Olympic, Essential) and in a small caliber, illegal in many states for taking deer. Finally, people use the term "scout" as if it's an unrealistic fantasy, or an unlikely one. Let's examine the rifle selected for people... running around in wilderness, for military scouting purposes, independently, who might need to hunt or address threats from bears... Over length, weight, no scout scope, but ghost ring, detach mag, .308... and it's a bolt-action. Yeah. https://www.mbcradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/searson2-1080x675.jpg |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:17:54 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OODA_Loop: So many straw man arguments. Nobody was hunting Nazis on dinos from the Hollow Earth. Scout was supposed to be a light, handy rifle, its spiritual ancestor the prewar Mannlicher, capable of taking anything in North America on four legs or two, useful in wilderness or as a truck gun. Cooper even wrote that a lever-action could serve in ban states (he was a WWG co-pilot fan). Most of the experimental scout rifles built for him and coterie prior to the Steyr didn’t make weight or length either. It’s a concept, not an in or out club based on the numbers. Consider how radical this was in an era of Weatherby and other long-barreled bolt guns with big optics. Also, even with M855 hitting the market, the AR15 wasn’t yet America’s Rifle during the 80s and 90s; it was uncommon and relatively expensive, with limited parts support (Bushmaster!), of uncertain quality (Olympic, Essential) and in a small caliber, illegal in many states for taking deer. Finally, people use the term “scout” as if it’s an unrealistic fantasy, or an unlikely one. Let’s examine the rifle selected for people... running around in wilderness, for military scouting purposes, independently, who might need to hunt or address threats from bears... Over length, weight, no scout scope, but ghost ring, detach mag, .308... and it’s a bolt-action. Yeah. https://www.mbcradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/searson2-1080x675.jpg You’ll notice this “real world scout rifle” (which is really a glorified hunting/bear protection rifle that will operate in very cold conditions) has no provision for a forward mounted optic! It also doesn’t have the necessary, weird 3-position sling. Sorry, definitely NOT a scout rifle. That’s just a (very nice) bolt action rifle with iron sights. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:23:56 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: You’ll notice this “real world scout rifle” (which is really a glorified hunting/bear protection rifle that will operate in very cold conditions) has no provision for a forward mounted optic! It also doesn’t have the necessary, weird 3-position sling. Sorry, definitely NOT a scout rifle. That’s just a (very nice) bolt action rifle with iron sights. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By OODA_Loop: So many straw man arguments. Nobody was hunting Nazis on dinos from the Hollow Earth. Scout was supposed to be a light, handy rifle, its spiritual ancestor the prewar Mannlicher, capable of taking anything in North America on four legs or two, useful in wilderness or as a truck gun. Cooper even wrote that a lever-action could serve in ban states (he was a WWG co-pilot fan). Most of the experimental scout rifles built for him and coterie prior to the Steyr didn’t make weight or length either. It’s a concept, not an in or out club based on the numbers. Consider how radical this was in an era of Weatherby and other long-barreled bolt guns with big optics. Also, even with M855 hitting the market, the AR15 wasn’t yet America’s Rifle during the 80s and 90s; it was uncommon and relatively expensive, with limited parts support (Bushmaster!), of uncertain quality (Olympic, Essential) and in a small caliber, illegal in many states for taking deer. Finally, people use the term “scout” as if it’s an unrealistic fantasy, or an unlikely one. Let’s examine the rifle selected for people... running around in wilderness, for military scouting purposes, independently, who might need to hunt or address threats from bears... Over length, weight, no scout scope, but ghost ring, detach mag, .308... and it’s a bolt-action. Yeah. https://www.mbcradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/searson2-1080x675.jpg You’ll notice this “real world scout rifle” (which is really a glorified hunting/bear protection rifle that will operate in very cold conditions) has no provision for a forward mounted optic! It also doesn’t have the necessary, weird 3-position sling. Sorry, definitely NOT a scout rifle. That’s just a (very nice) bolt action rifle with iron sights. People get wrapped around the axle about the forward scope. It is not a necessary component to a Scout Rifle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:31:55 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cycletool: I wonder if Steyr had marketed the Scout as a lightweight hunting rifle with convention and EER scope mount options if it would have sold better? Because the rifle is a damn nice rifle and in places like Canada or any ban state it would be my first choice if I couldn't have an AR. If they hadn't introduced it with a $2500 dollar price tag they would have sold them like Ruger sold the GSR. My left handed Ruger scout rifle is one of my favorites and not because I'm a Cooper fan either. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:33:12 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: You’ll notice this “real world scout rifle” (which is really a glorified hunting/bear protection rifle that will operate in very cold conditions) has no provision for a forward mounted optic! It also doesn’t have the necessary, weird 3-position sling. Sorry, definitely NOT a scout rifle. That’s just a (very nice) bolt action rifle with iron sights. Correct on all points. I’m digging through some of his musings now, since everything seemed malleable even if he was a fervent LER optic advocate. Set in his ways on the 1911 but had a lively mind - an awful lot if sea stories and cocktail recipes in his writing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:37:09 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TacticalGarand44: People get wrapped around the axle about the forward scope. It is not a necessary component to a Scout Rifle. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TacticalGarand44: Originally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By OODA_Loop: So many straw man arguments. Nobody was hunting Nazis on dinos from the Hollow Earth. Scout was supposed to be a light, handy rifle, its spiritual ancestor the prewar Mannlicher, capable of taking anything in North America on four legs or two, useful in wilderness or as a truck gun. Cooper even wrote that a lever-action could serve in ban states (he was a WWG co-pilot fan). Most of the experimental scout rifles built for him and coterie prior to the Steyr didn’t make weight or length either. It’s a concept, not an in or out club based on the numbers. Consider how radical this was in an era of Weatherby and other long-barreled bolt guns with big optics. Also, even with M855 hitting the market, the AR15 wasn’t yet America’s Rifle during the 80s and 90s; it was uncommon and relatively expensive, with limited parts support (Bushmaster!), of uncertain quality (Olympic, Essential) and in a small caliber, illegal in many states for taking deer. Finally, people use the term “scout” as if it’s an unrealistic fantasy, or an unlikely one. Let’s examine the rifle selected for people... running around in wilderness, for military scouting purposes, independently, who might need to hunt or address threats from bears... Over length, weight, no scout scope, but ghost ring, detach mag, .308... and it’s a bolt-action. Yeah. https://www.mbcradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/searson2-1080x675.jpg You’ll notice this “real world scout rifle” (which is really a glorified hunting/bear protection rifle that will operate in very cold conditions) has no provision for a forward mounted optic! It also doesn’t have the necessary, weird 3-position sling. Sorry, definitely NOT a scout rifle. That’s just a (very nice) bolt action rifle with iron sights. People get wrapped around the axle about the forward scope. It is not a necessary component to a Scout Rifle. I’ll totally agree that when Col. Coooer was throwing around concepts that would fit in the rule he was calling a “scout rifle” that forward mounted optics were not a requirement. In fact, I think the ONLY reason he mentioned EER scopes at all was because many of the rifles available at that time for the role of “scout rifle” required them due to loading and/or ejection. However, in the current consciousness of gun buyers, I think “scout rifle” absolutely means “EER scope”. Almost every “scout rifle” sold today has NO ability to mount an optic in the standard location without aftermarket parts. This goes for Ruger, Savage snd SA. The Mossberg MVP Scout has a full length rail, so the user can mount a scout scope if so desired. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:42:45 PM EST
[#42]
Bloke on the range reviews the C19.
History and unboxing.  Tikka T3x Arctic / Canadian Rangers C19 Rifle, 7.62 / .308 Win First range trip.  Tikka T3x Arctic / Canadian C19 Ranger Rifle vs. Lee-Enfield No.4 on the 300m range Second range trip.  Tikka T3x Arctic / C19 Canadian Rangers Rifle Range Time Take Two |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 7:51:28 PM EST
[#43]
Speaking of being "handicapped" by a fixed 10X scope..
A guy by the name of Pat Sinclair aka "Scenar Shooter" uses S&B 10x42 s on most of his primary hunting guns. A number of years back he started a thread discussing a .308 which at the time he already had over 800 coyote kills with the rifle (his full time job is predator control). He was comparing it to a .260 that was built pretty similar, and topped with a duplicate fixed 10X S&B. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14593163/1 He has killed more big game than most will even see in multiple lifetimes including Bighorn rams, Grizzly, monster elk, huge black bear, some of the biggest Mule Deer in Montana and on and on. Google Pat Sinclair aka Scenar Shooter animal pics. Obviously a fixed power scope has been a big handicap for him as well. In fact there are a good number of pretty switched on guys who use lighter weight custom "mountain rifles" that prefer a fixed 10X as their optic of choice. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:10:53 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R71: If they hadn't introduced it with a $2500 dollar price tag they would have sold them like Ruger sold the GSR. My left handed Ruger scout rifle is one of my favorites and not because I'm a Cooper fan either. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R71: Originally Posted By cycletool: I wonder if Steyr had marketed the Scout as a lightweight hunting rifle with convention and EER scope mount options if it would have sold better? Because the rifle is a damn nice rifle and in places like Canada or any ban state it would be my first choice if I couldn't have an AR. If they hadn't introduced it with a $2500 dollar price tag they would have sold them like Ruger sold the GSR. My left handed Ruger scout rifle is one of my favorites and not because I'm a Cooper fan either. $2500 was the complete Cooper package rifle. The core rifle is $1400ish and is honestly worth the coin. It blows every other production scout out of the water. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:19:50 PM EST
[#45]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 8:43:15 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lost_River: Yeah I have noticed it has limited my ability to kill game... https://i.imgur.com/6A4cTOj.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Fk3LeDY.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Jz57ScZ.jpg or even sneak up on shit. It really seems to handicap me in the field.. https://i.imgur.com/H0Tc3av.jpg People kill shit with all kinds of stupid gear, recurves, spears bows, fixes power scopes. Doesnt mean theres not far far better ways to do it. hey props to ya for making it harder then you have to. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 9:01:40 PM EST
[#47]
“A scout must be a good shot - a good practical shot, a hunter. A ‘scout rifle’ should be a rifle for such a man. As it turns out, the current Steyr Scout rifle is a good deal more than that, and what a happy development it turned out to be! What it is not, however, is a short, bolt-action rifle with the telescope mounted forward. The scout rifle does not need a telescope sight, and I used Scout I extensively in Central America mounting ghost-ring only.” Oct 2005
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 9:45:02 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RePp: Theres no scenario where I want a scount rifle. Good lord, I don't want a scount rifle either. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 9:54:25 PM EST
[#49]
I turned my M1 Carbine into a semi-scout rifle
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/16/2020 10:05:59 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: I’ll totally agree that when Col. Coooer was throwing around concepts that would fit in the rule he was calling a “scout rifle” that forward mounted optics were not a requirement. In fact, I think the ONLY reason he mentioned EER scopes at all was because many of the rifles available at that time for the role of “scout rifle” required them due to loading and/or ejection. However, in the current consciousness of gun buyers, I think “scout rifle” absolutely means “EER scope”. Almost every “scout rifle” sold today has NO ability to mount an optic in the standard location without aftermarket parts. This goes for Ruger, Savage snd SA. The Mossberg MVP Scout has a full length rail, so the user can mount a scout scope if so desired. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By TacticalGarand44: Originally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By OODA_Loop: So many straw man arguments. Nobody was hunting Nazis on dinos from the Hollow Earth. Scout was supposed to be a light, handy rifle, its spiritual ancestor the prewar Mannlicher, capable of taking anything in North America on four legs or two, useful in wilderness or as a truck gun. Cooper even wrote that a lever-action could serve in ban states (he was a WWG co-pilot fan). Most of the experimental scout rifles built for him and coterie prior to the Steyr didn’t make weight or length either. It’s a concept, not an in or out club based on the numbers. Consider how radical this was in an era of Weatherby and other long-barreled bolt guns with big optics. Also, even with M855 hitting the market, the AR15 wasn’t yet America’s Rifle during the 80s and 90s; it was uncommon and relatively expensive, with limited parts support (Bushmaster!), of uncertain quality (Olympic, Essential) and in a small caliber, illegal in many states for taking deer. Finally, people use the term “scout” as if it’s an unrealistic fantasy, or an unlikely one. Let’s examine the rifle selected for people... running around in wilderness, for military scouting purposes, independently, who might need to hunt or address threats from bears... Over length, weight, no scout scope, but ghost ring, detach mag, .308... and it’s a bolt-action. Yeah. https://www.mbcradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/searson2-1080x675.jpg You’ll notice this “real world scout rifle” (which is really a glorified hunting/bear protection rifle that will operate in very cold conditions) has no provision for a forward mounted optic! It also doesn’t have the necessary, weird 3-position sling. Sorry, definitely NOT a scout rifle. That’s just a (very nice) bolt action rifle with iron sights. People get wrapped around the axle about the forward scope. It is not a necessary component to a Scout Rifle. I’ll totally agree that when Col. Coooer was throwing around concepts that would fit in the rule he was calling a “scout rifle” that forward mounted optics were not a requirement. In fact, I think the ONLY reason he mentioned EER scopes at all was because many of the rifles available at that time for the role of “scout rifle” required them due to loading and/or ejection. However, in the current consciousness of gun buyers, I think “scout rifle” absolutely means “EER scope”. Almost every “scout rifle” sold today has NO ability to mount an optic in the standard location without aftermarket parts. This goes for Ruger, Savage snd SA. The Mossberg MVP Scout has a full length rail, so the user can mount a scout scope if so desired. Like many things in this life, marketers have taken the name and tried to make a quick buck. I don't really care what the average gun owner thinks is a proper scout rifle or not based on a forward scope. Last year I started a thread specifically about a scout rifle that had no forward scope. https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The-OG-Scout-Rifle/5-2240203/ |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
