[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Here's what Sig Sauer is going to in the immediate future regarding the P320 fiasco (Page 2 of 5)
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Quoted: And with the damage they're doing to their reputation every day this goes on, less people are going to be willing to buy any Sig products, let alone the P320. I have recently purchased a Mk25 and a P220, just helping a friend in need of cash. I would be hesitant to buy a new Sig product these days. 
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Quoted: I've seen a lot of usual suspects on other social media already blaming this whole debacle on him because he has a Jewish name.  |
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How in the fuck can they successfully sue a gun range or school saying you cannot ban the Sig320? They can ban Jennings, Raven, etc so why not Sig, Glock etc. As far as .mil goes, there is a new boss in town he very well may claw back a shitload of money from Sig if the contract is cancelled. If there is a big bitch about it he may cancel the other .mil Sig contracts. |
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Quoted: Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, so they're going to stick to their unsafe guns in the meantime before it really fucks them in their ass. From a basic search, the U.S. military has ordered approximately 480,000 M17 (military version of the P320). Several sources state that they paid approximately $180 per pistol There are 2.5 million P320's in the civilian market and pretty much most will agree that people paid WELL OVER $180 each. So even if some foreign militaries order the P320/M17 they will not be in the numbers that the U.S. military uses. With that said, how are civilian and LE sales small potatoes versus military sales, considering the numbers AND price per pistol? This can also be said for Glock as well as M&P sales. Their civilian and LE sales far outweigh military sales. |
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Quoted: Yeah yeah yeah, another P320 thread, but this is for the future actions of Sig. First, they're denying anything is wrong with the pistol. They claim that "universal holsters" are the reason, along with a plethora of other really dumb shit. So they're buying time. The brass knows full well they're going to fucked royally over with this crap eventually. Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, so they're going to stick to their unsafe guns in the meantime before it really fucks them in their ass. So what are they doing now? Buying time and lawsuits. They're hoping to be able to sue places like training centers into not banning the P320. They're going to shut down or else ridicule away people who show their guns fire without having the trigger pulled. Not only the do they think the lawsuits will help buy time, scare other places into not banning the P320, they're going to try to do a cash grab. This will placate the board of directors and also build up a bank for the eventual lawsuits. Which will come. Sig is praying that they get their production right so every P320 after the recent times will have nothing wrong with them. They'll pretend those "other" pistols were either fucked with or used a wrong holster. (Should have used a Sig one!) Once concrete evidence comes out that there are shoddy pistols, Sig will have to spin it as something done post sale. ANY attempt at a acknowledgement that they fucked up will cost them dearly. Having your pistol randomly go off will forever be tattooed on their foreheads for whenever they try to do a lucrative military sale. So their only option is to: Silence people talking about the problems Sue places that ban that pistol Keep on pretending nothing is wrong and there's "reasons" that are outside of their control for these issues The longer Sig can draw out any legal action will mean they can make more contract sales for large orders to militaries. The absolutely second it comes out they put a shit pistol on the market is going to hit them heavily. They're relying on Indian made parts to squeeze every ounce of profit out of these Volkspistoles that they have no other choice but to soldier on and pretend the Emperor has fancy clothes. Yea, ask EOTech how hiding thermal drift issues in older units worked out for them. And that was small beans compared to the sig issue. Sig is slowly fucking itself into the ground. |
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Quoted: I’ve seen a lot of usual suspects on other social media already blaming this whole debacle on him because he has a Jewish name. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fuck Sig. What terrible leadership and hope someone gets indicted for criminal negligence. Ron Cohen is a shitbag. I’ve seen a lot of usual suspects on other social media already blaming this whole debacle on him because he has a Jewish name. I think it has a lot more to do with him torpedoing two high tier gun companies than his last name Theres been a lot of warranted and unwarranted criticisms of Sig recently Congrats on being the first person ive seen to make it about jewish nonsense |
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Quoted: From a basic search, the U.S. military has ordered approximately 480,000 M17 (military version of the P320). Several sources state that they paid approximately $180 per pistol There are 2.5 million P320's in the civilian market and pretty much most will agree that people paid WELL OVER $180 each. So even if some foreign militaries order the P320/M17 they will not be in the numbers that the U.S. military uses. With that said, how are civilian and LE sales small potatoes versus military sales, considering the numbers AND price per pistol? This can also be said for Glock as well as M&P sales. Their civilian and LE sales far outweigh military sales. Quoted: Quoted: Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, so they're going to stick to their unsafe guns in the meantime before it really fucks them in their ass. From a basic search, the U.S. military has ordered approximately 480,000 M17 (military version of the P320). Several sources state that they paid approximately $180 per pistol There are 2.5 million P320's in the civilian market and pretty much most will agree that people paid WELL OVER $180 each. So even if some foreign militaries order the P320/M17 they will not be in the numbers that the U.S. military uses. With that said, how are civilian and LE sales small potatoes versus military sales, considering the numbers AND price per pistol? This can also be said for Glock as well as M&P sales. Their civilian and LE sales far outweigh military sales. The "we don't care about civ sales" is the line allegedly parroted by Sig armorers recently in a class to a guy who posted about it on IG. Realistically we have no proof that they were saying that...but assuming it's true, the statement is almost undoubtedly just propagandized copium that Sig staff were told to repeat. On the other hand, if you look at the history of Sig's international sales div getting busted wildly overcharging for contracts, *maybe* there's some truth to it. After all, if you're charging $1500 for a gun that cost $150 to build, that can make up for a lot of federal agencies dropping your shit like it bit them. |
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Quoted: Yeah, so what exactly are you insinuating here? Jews never make mistakes or do anything wrong? You should clarify your post. I do blame him for this. That is how it goes when you are the captain of a ship that sinks. Folks look at your actions with raised eyebrows. Ask Trump about it. Quoted: Quoted: I've seen a lot of usual suspects on other social media already blaming this whole debacle on him because he has a Jewish name. I’m pointing out how all one has to do it look around Twitter, FB, IG, etc., and you’ll see the usual anti-semites claiming this happened because of some malignant motivation due to him being Jewish. The “Everystein, Singleberg, Timeowitz” garbage memes are posted anytime they think a Jew is plotting against the U.S. Cohen is probably just a normal bean-counting, cost-cutting asshole that typifies the downfall of numerous classic names in manufacturing. Not because Jews. |
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Going to be pretty much impossible to deny if many can replicate this. Sig is fucked. https://youtu.be/jOMQOtOQoPk?feature=shared  SIG P320 Un Commanded Discharge and its Repeatable |
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Quoted: I think it has a lot more to do with him torpedoing two high tier gun companies than his last name Theres been a lot of warranted and unwarranted criticisms of Sig recently Congrats on being the first person ive seen to make it about jewish nonsense Maybe on this site, but I’m hardly the first online to point it out. You just haven’t seen or noticed it. |
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Quoted: Yeah yeah yeah, another P320 thread, but this is for the future actions of Sig. First, they're denying anything is wrong with the pistol. They claim that "universal holsters" are the reason, along with a plethora of other really dumb shit. So they're buying time. The brass knows full well they're going to fucked royally over with this crap eventually. Civilian sales and LE sales are small potatoes vs military sales, so they're going to stick to their unsafe guns in the meantime before it really fucks them in their ass. So what are they doing now? Buying time and lawsuits. They're hoping to be able to sue places like training centers into not banning the P320. They're going to shut down or else ridicule away people who show their guns fire without having the trigger pulled. Not only the do they think the lawsuits will help buy time, scare other places into not banning the P320, they're going to try to do a cash grab. This will placate the board of directors and also build up a bank for the eventual lawsuits. Which will come. Sig is praying that they get their production right so every P320 after the recent times will have nothing wrong with them. They'll pretend those "other" pistols were either fucked with or used a wrong holster. (Should have used a Sig one!) Once concrete evidence comes out that there are shoddy pistols, Sig will have to spin it as something done post sale. ANY attempt at a acknowledgement that they fucked up will cost them dearly. Having your pistol randomly go off will forever be tattooed on their foreheads for whenever they try to do a lucrative military sale. So their only option is to: Silence people talking about the problems Sue places that ban that pistol Keep on pretending nothing is wrong and there's "reasons" that are outside of their control for these issues The longer Sig can draw out any legal action will mean they can make more contract sales for large orders to militaries. The absolutely second it comes out they put a shit pistol on the market is going to hit them heavily. They're relying on Indian made parts to squeeze every ounce of profit out of these Volkspistoles that they have no other choice but to soldier on and pretend the Emperor has fancy clothes. There's another possibility here. Cohen is getting fairly old, and he's been at Sig for a long time. This mess is squarely on his head and he knows it. His tactical play may very well be as simple as "kick the can down the road another 18-24 months, and then I retire and run away". He's already shown he doesn't care about international law...perhaps he plans to take his monies and go retire to some non-extraditable 3rd world island where he can buy the local cops off and live the next 20 years doing all the hookers and blow he can stand. |
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Quoted: One of these days I need to post all my Sigs in one photo just to see how many people here get frothy over it. Quoted: Quoted: You have three?? Jesus One of these days I need to post all my Sigs in one photo just to see how many people here get frothy over it. Do it! 
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Quoted: How in the fuck can they successfully sue a gun range or school saying you cannot ban the Sig320? They can ban Jennings, Raven, etc so why not Sig, Glock etc. As far as .mil goes, there is a new boss in town he very well may claw back a shitload of money from Sig if the contract is cancelled. If there is a big bitch about it he may cancel the other .mil Sig contracts. The process is the punishment. Want to defend, great, hire a lawyer that can go up against Sig's. I guarantee their lawyers can drag it out longer than you have money. |
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Quoted: We decided to ride ourselves of them this week; we won't buy used, and we won't order unless the customer specifically requests it. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Someone posted that Gander Mountain won't buy 320s. Ben Stoeger said he heard gunshops are offering $ 100 for a used 320 Two of my local places won't buy them used at all and haven't been selling them new. We decided to ride ourselves of them this week; we won't buy used, and we won't order unless the customer specifically requests it. One of my customers had acquired the grip, magazines, barrel & slide, & wanted me to order him an FCU. I politely told him it wasn't a good idea, and that was before the Airman was killed. |
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Quoted: It is not a trigger problem. It is the pre tensioned striker that is the problem. Any trigger maker with a brain is not going to touch the 320 Timney’s Glock trigger does the same thing, turns into a full tension striker. When I put one in I did a bunch of tests trying to get it to fire and couldn’t. Even hit it in multiples places with a rubber mallet. I’ve seen no reported issues. |
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Quoted: Ron Cohen is a shitbag. Quoted: Quoted: Fuck Sig. What terrible leadership and hope someone gets indicted for criminal negligence. Ron Cohen is a shitbag. Everybody who had anything at all to do with hiring him after what he did to Kimber ought to be fired and blacklisted from the entire firearms industry for life. I can't fathom how anyone looked at Kimber at the time and thought it was a good idea to talk to him even casually, much less hire him.  ETA- I wonder what this will do to Flux? I know they're turning out the 365 Flux and were working on another Glock version but they really hung their hat on the P320 FCU. 
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Anyone remember Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co? The P320 is the 21st century equivalent to the Pinto. The lawsuits will come, especially after the death of Airman Lovan. Good Lord, 21 year old kid just shy of his 2nd year of Active Duty service to our country. Rest In Peace, sir...your watch has come to its end.  As a parent I would be FURIOUS! Hell, I'm not his parent and I am furious...as we all should be. V/R G |
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Quoted: I bought a new MK25 about two years ago. I thought the 226 line was solid. Quoted: Quoted: And with the damage they're doing to their reputation every day this goes on, less people are going to be willing to buy any Sig products, let alone the P320. I have recently purchased a Mk25 and a P220, just helping a friend in need of cash. I would be hesitant to buy a new Sig product these days. There's nothing wrong with the P226. |
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Quoted: Someone posted that Gander Mountain won't buy 320s. Ben Stoeger said he heard gunshops are offering $ 100 for a used 320 Quoted: Quoted: I havent seen many selling in the local fun shop The only way I would take one, is if the dude giving it to me, was also willing to pay the FFL transfer fee. The only reason I would accept that, is in the off chance they do some sort of P365 trade or buy back offer in the future. |
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Quoted: Anyone remember Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co? The P320 is the 21st century equivalent to the Pinto. [/img] As a parent I would be FURIOUS! Hell, I'm not his parent and I am furious...as we all should be. V/R G After being agnostic about the P320 I now feel it's more equivalent to the Samsung Galaxy Note 7. |
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Quoted: I'm will to bet military sales are going to come to a screeching halt shortly. Nobody wants this thing. Australia is the latest customer, started getting them this year, called the F9 pistol. Might be their last big contract. It is interesting that the Army, Canada, Denmark and now Australia didn't seem to find any major issues with it. |
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Quoted: I started collecting the P22* stainless framed guns a while ago. Those are pretty nice. I've got an all stainless P220 that I really enjoy. Just wish I had bought a P226 in all stainless back when they were still readily available. Now they seem to sell for crazy money on the used market.
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https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2019-04-03/sig-sauer-ceo-avoids-jail-time-for-role-in-illegal-arms-shipment Same dude almost killed Kimber Now.. hes fucking Sig like a low IQ MAM invading a European country. |
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Quoted: Australia is the latest customer, started getting them this year, called the F9 pistol. Might be their last big contract. It is interesting that the Army, Canada, Denmark and now Australia didn't seem to find any major issues with it. Quoted: Quoted: I'm will to bet military sales are going to come to a screeching halt shortly. Nobody wants this thing. Australia is the latest customer, started getting them this year, called the F9 pistol. Might be their last big contract. It is interesting that the Army, Canada, Denmark and now Australia didn't seem to find any major issues with it. What is the Sigcident rate? AI says there are 80 NDs and 2.5M P-320s sold... I'm no mathematician, but that's a low rate and difficult to wring out in testing. We still don't know the mechanical root cause(s) |
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Ive heard the "once evidence comes out that they are shoddy pistols" since like 2018. Im not a fan boy. Do enjoy a good 320 every now and then. But when is this evidence gonna come out? When will people be able to regularly replicate it? At this point im convinced someone is sabotaging sig just because. If someone knows of concrete proof so I can finally settle it in my own head ease point me to it. |
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Quoted: Timney’s Glock trigger does the same thing, turns into a full tension striker. When I put one in I did a bunch of tests trying to get it to fire and couldn’t. Even hit it in multiples places with a rubber mallet. I’ve seen no reported issues. Because Glock doesn’t have a retarded design for their safety plunger, and has a trigger thing that stops it from going backwards. Even if your “sear” was to completely snap; it’s going into the firing pin block. |
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Quoted: At this point im convinced someone is sabotaging sig just because. If someone knows of concrete proof so I can finally settle it in my own head ease point me to it. You think people are arranging to get people killed by 320s going off in holsters to sabotage Sig? |
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Quoted: So what are they doing now? Buying time and lawsuits. What they should have been doing is divesting Sig Sauer military from civilian sales, fire all the P320 engineers and marketing teams, let it go bankrupt and blame the damage of the famed Sig Sauer reputation on that rogue part of the former company. I like Sig, but this was/is a colossal fuckup. ROCK6 |
At this point it doesn’t matter if Sig knows what the problem is, or even if it they care, the P320 needs to go. No one wants a “fixed” P320, they want something different. They barely took care of the drop issue by doing the voluntary upgrade, with uncommanded discharges of an unknown origin???, it won’t matter if it’s a mandatory recall, if it says P320 on it, the reception will be akin to leprosy
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Couldn't there at least one bright mind out there...that has the ability to actually FIX the 320 issue, instead of letting it die? Ya know.... re-arranging the slide internals, etc. Would be nice to see Sig release a recall warranty fix. I don't own any Sigs, but I like collecting military model pistols. |
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Quoted: I’m pointing out how all one has to do it look around Twitter, FB, IG, etc., and you’ll see the usual anti-semites claiming this happened because of some malignant motivation due to him being Jewish. The “Everystein, Singleberg, Timeowitz” garbage memes are posted anytime they think a Jew is plotting against the U.S. Cohen is probably just a normal bean-counting, cost-cutting asshole that typifies the downfall of numerous classic names in manufacturing. Not because Jews. He fought in the IDF. You seem heavily invested in this... |