I think with the defeat of the assault weapons ban prices are or will be shortly coming back to normal. Seems like some prices are down somewhat and high dollar AR's are not selling. Unless your a rich dimwit needing to buy AR's at gouged prices.

It's not black or white, there are many shades of grey....

If someone offers you tons for that item you have, it's not a problem, they are asking to pay that much.
However, if you say " I am one of the only ones who have this, so you are going to pay through the nose to get it", then there is a moral disconnect.

If you are one of the only ones who has something, and it cost you tons to get it, and you sell it to make a profit, then it will naturally cost tons.... no brainer there.
But if it cost you little, everyone needs it to survive, and you still sell it for tons, just to get rich....not so good morally.

Your 'church', or your 'heart', 'soul', 'conscience', whatever, will guide you in how you treat your fellow man. If you don't have that.... Well, good luck.... Karma will come around.

Even on “Pawn Stars”, which was mentioned earlier in this thread, there have been several times that someone has wanted too little for something, and they have said, wait a min, this is worth a lot more than you think, let me make you a fair offer…… This is morals.


GOUGING - During Hurricane Rita in Central Louisiana, a local man took a tractor trailer, drove up north, bought a load of crappy $600 generators, then came back down and sold them in the Walmart parking lot for $3000 each..... This is gouging.

This is probably one of the worst forms too, other lesser degree gouging falls into the "Shades of Grey" catagory.

Have I made it a little clearer

Your argument is full of feeling and low on rationality.

Nobody owes you anything. Nobody is obligated to sell to you at any price. If someone is selling, they get to choose the price. If you want to pay the price, you can have the item. If you don't, don't.

You don't "need" my old WASR, that other rifle, or those PMAGs, or that ammo. You're not going to die without it, and there are other options available to you (even if you did need the item, arguably it doesn't matter anyway). You think you're entitled to a low price on a luxury item simply because you want it and lacked the foresight or opportunity to buy when prices were lower. In that sense, you're just like the people that think I should pay more taxes so that people who made bad choices in life can have "free" health coverage.   That's just plain stupid.

Lack of preparation does not entitle you to anything.  My conscience and morality tells me to pity you, but particularly in the case of luxury items like rifles, my prices will always be what I think the market will bear. You should be thankful they were for sale at ANY price, given the demand/scarcity.

ETA: your "gouging" example isn't.  If you live in hurricane country and are not prepared for a hurricane it's your problem. The generator guy was providing a valuable good. Don't want to pay? don't buy.

Your contempt for capitalism and free enterprise is troubling, but perhaps you can emigrate to someplace like Cuba where your benevolent government can protect you from such evils.

free gun as of 1200 CST

wow, they really are getting cheap!

Complete and utter garbage... Well, exept for the health care thing.... you should not pay higher taxes to support those that don't have health care,... unless they are dissabled, or a dissabled vet, or orphans, or the elderly, or ... oh wait....

I'll say it again, I'm not for comunism, I'm for free trade and I have no contempt for capitalism.... It is not all black and white.... We must take care of each other, while practicing capitalism or free trade. We used to do it well, but that was before the country went to hell.

I'll continue to treat people the way I would like to be treated, But I'll defend to the death your right to believe the crap you believe.


It was imorale, not illegal.
And I didn't....  
Karma did find its way to him thoughg, a couple guys threw him a real beatning when the generator didn't work and he wouldn't swap them out.

So who determines what a "fair price" in your dreamworld? Who is to say that my price isn't "fair" (whatever the blue fuck that is)? Someone was willing to pay it, therefore it was fair. QED.

Your "shades of grey" nonsense are just weasel words to defend your illogical argument. It's exactly black and white. You either buy your luxury item at the price that's asked or you don't.   What you're asking is precisely what the "occupy Wall Street" and welfare rats want... Others to pay for your own lack of preparation and foresight.

I'm still waiting for any kind of sensible reasoning about how I'm not supposed to set the price for items I sell, or how it's "unfair" if its not to your liking... Please go ahead, I'll wait for your answers...

PROTIP: try to steer clear of words like "I think", or "I feel"... Stick to facts... GO!

ETA: whence comes your belief that I'm obligated to take care of you? Are we related? Friends even?

Na... not going to happen....
You are never going to get it, and there is no sense in continuing this discusion bud.

Insanity is continuing to beat your head against a brick wall, expecting a different result.

Good luck, and I hope you never find yourself at the mercy of someone such as yourself.



What?  Never said such a thing... If I don't pay for it, I don't want it. Hell, I've never even used unemployment....

You are obligated, (now this is just my opinion, and by you I mean everyone), to take care of those in your community that can't take care of themselves. Not those that choose not to.

I'm done with this.

That's what I thought...

1. My plan is to never be at anyone's mercy, therefore I make every attempt to prepare accordingly. I certainly won't blame someone else for selling at the best price they can get.

2. You weasel around the circumstances in which I'm supposed to "take care of" random folks, then claim I'm not obligated to take care of folks that choose not to take care of themselves... Yet you criticize folks for selling (at your imaginary and nebulous "gouger" prices... Without bothering to define exactly what constitutes fair or unfair, by the way) to people who CHOSE not to prepare... At least try to be vaguely consistent...

Done? You never even got started (making sense that is)...

<Removed - Tango7>

And name calling in violation of the CoC does exactly what?

Please knock it off.

You're the one whose position makes no sense... I'd advise looking in the mirror first.

I've defined and justified my position. It's simple capitalism. You're the one who dances around the issue without any firm definitions...

I said I wasn’t going to do this, but what the hell... It's quiet around here

To you...

You say everything is black and white, no grey.  
You say feeling has no role in capitalism... Maybe so.. (I disagree) but it should have a major role in how you run your capitalistic venture.
Feeling should be the motivator for everything you do, who you are, what you believe.
What you believe to be 'good' or ‘right’ is the very definition of what is moral.... We just happen to disagree. That's all
To me, basing decisions in morality and how you treat other people makes perfect sense.
The Declaration of Independence... one of the single most prolific pieces of literature ever drafted, is full of morality, emotion, and (believe it or not...)  feeling.
If it wasn't, it would just say GET THE F**K OUT!
Laws we live by are drafted from ideas that are based in feeling and beliefs.

You have defined nothing, just stated "Simple Capitalism".
Let’s define that:



What the hell is simple about that? And the term as we use it is derived from the father of communism?? I did not know that.


Now Morality.


What I'm saying is that you should strive to temper Capitalism with Morality.
If you don’t get that, then I don’t know what to say, it doesn’t really get any clearer
BTW: I do apologize for the ‘retarded’ crack. It’s obvious you’re not… But your views make me shiver…
It just takes all kinds I guess. I do wish you well though.

This is a lovely explanation of your philosophy.  You're perfectly entitled to it, and nobody has said so.  Had you simply said, "I wouldn't do it that way", there would be no refutation to that; you're entitled to your opinion just like the rest of us.  Instead, you attacked the whole idea of a buyer being able to sell for whatever price he wants; we'll get into that in a moment. The fact is, you're way over your skis trying to tell me that my practices are wrong for some nebulous moral reason which you can't or won't define.  Here's some examples of where you went wrong:

The issue of whether or not the seller determines the price is not "shades of grey".  It is, as I said, completely black and white.  The seller determines the price, the buyer either pays that price or he doesn't.  They can negotiate, but in the end the seller still determines the price.  That's it.  It's a basic tenet of capitalism.  If you don't believe that, you can hardly call yourself a capitalist. You tried to blow that up into implying that I said  "nothing is 'shades of grey'", and gave a nice wikipedia definition of capitalism that was somehow supposed to refute my points, but utterly fails to do so;  in the end, you're just plain thrashing.  

You want to claim that there is some completely arbitrary notion of "fairness" in pricing.  I claim that that's hogwash, and request that you give some basis or justification for that belief along with some unambiguous guidelines as to what constitutes "fair", and who gets to decide that (if my assertion that "it's fair if the buyer is willing to pay it" is, as you say, "complete and utter garbage").  You never did so, because you can't.  It's not based on fact, and there is in fact no standard for what's fair, except (to you) what your feelings tell you... the implication being that if my standards of "fair" aren't in lockstep with yours that I'm dreadfully immoral or something like that.  Sigh.

Then you throw in some kind of weak jab about how "we must take care of each other", and digress into some kind of hippy, "we are the world" thing.  You go on to weaky attempt to clarify: "You are obligated, (now this is just my opinion, and by you I mean everyone), to take care of those in your community that can't take care of themselves. Not those that choose not to. "  Again, a noble notion if that's your personal philosophy, but one with which I personally disagree (I could go into my personal beliefs on the matter, but they're irrelevant... suffice it to say that I'm probably not as mercenary as you're trying to imply).  As great as this is, it's completely irrelevant to the original argument because a rifle (AR15, WASR, whatever, both of which I sold at immense profit recently, probably what you'd frown at as "gouging") isn't a "need", it's a "want".  Further, anyone who wants one had the same opportunity to buy them at lower prices as I did.  I just did so.  Because those folks CHOSE to wait until what they perceived as a time of crisis to buy (when the market was dried up and prices were sky high) doesn't obligate me in any way to sell to them at anything but what I think they're willing to pay.  Hell, your objection is even contradictory to your own statement, since (according to you) I'm not obligated to "take care of" (whatever that means... you've also conveniently left this completely arbitrary quip dangle) people who choose not to take care of themselves.

You then blow up some kind of spurious example of what you call "gouging", when in fact it's just as contrary to your premise.  The "generator people" could have gone and done the same as the entrepreneur, but chose not to.  Anyone who bought at the seller's price simply acknowleged that they were to slow or too lazy to do the same, or that it wasn't worth the price/effort to search elsewhere.  Those that didn't buy either found another source or chose to do without.  The good part of our system is that it's all about that (or should be):  choices.  You make them, and the consequences are on you, not your neighbor.  Where (again, IMO) you go completely off the rails is that you seem to think I'm obligated to compensate for other folks' bad choices.  In this, you're very much like the "occupy" crowd, and I pointed this out.   You make the claim that you're supportive of capitalism and free trade, yet you turn right around and spout statements utterly contradictory to this, then fall back on the position that "Capitalism must be tempered with morality"... this is fine and dandy for you, but it's a choice we all must make for ourselves.  In this, your're the one trying to make something that's "shades of grey" into a "black/white" issue.

Petty attacks and ridiculous attempts to imply that I'll be on the bad side of karma I won't even bother to go into.

I'm invoking the mercy rule on your behalf.

Prices have remained steady from all reputable sources,,,the only gouging was conducted by individuals. Supplies have been steadily growing, albiet at a slow rate, There is going to be many people who are going to be pissed that they didnt wait. Besides there wasnt a chance in hell that the AWB would have passed either the Senate or House because they dont want to get a pinkslip in the midterm elections and they were very afraid of a armed rebellion.

Although I don't share your level of confidence that there was no chance, I am glad it (seems) to have died for now.

It will be back.  Don't let your guard down.  The effort has now changed to getting the UN Arms treaty through......and the thought is that it WILL go through.  It is in many ways worse than the AWB.  It will usurp the 2nd ammendment if passed.

Doc

Even though DiFi's AWB has been shot down, we still have to contend with the anti-gun legislation that has a chance to pass without the AWB tacked to it.  We also have to worry about legislation at the state level as well.

On a good note there are a lot more Americans out there that are going to be able to experience shooting modern firearms that likely wouldnt have before this all started.  I know myself, I had bought a Colt AR-15 HBAR Sporter with the Handle that could be removed while I was in college.  I loved the gun but hated the handle as the front site was always in view of the scope unless I cranked up the magnification and when I tried mounting to the handle the handle always came loose.  I sold the gun and regretted it.  I finally got back into it this year and although I likely paid more then I needed to even at the peak of this mess I was able to get an upper and lower configuration that I wanted for $800 total.  DPMS Lower and DPMS Upper 16 inch Bull.  Just what I wanted for Coyote hunting.  I am now looking forward to buying more uppers and a 308 complete as well.  These are fun to shoot and as accurate as a lot of the bolt actions out there.  Now, if the ammo could just come down in price and become more available.....

its not chicken counting time yet

You go into some of the shops and you see stuff slowly coming back on the shelves and you think to yourself I hope this is the start of us coming out of this mess, then you happen to drop in your local Walmart and talk to the guy in Sporting goods who says he had 7 people in line before they even wheeled stock out on the floor that morning and you go Hmmmm maybe not so fast. I think at least as far as ammo is concerned people are still panicked, I got so frustrated with trying to find a reasonably priced handgun a month or so ago I just threw up my hands and went screw it for awhile and went and bought a couple reasonably priced bolt guns.

I predict roughly 9 months recovery time.

And what is this "gouging" of which you speak?  If it sells, the price was right.

I have a creed...
It goes something like this...

If you do anything that you know in your heart is wrong, simply because it gets you what you want, makes life easier, or every one else is doing it,... then you have just become part of the problem.

It is indeed taking advantage of the ignorant,...
But it wouldn't be gouging unless the SHTF for real.
And yes, morally it's wrong

The general sweeping aside of morals for gain, is the downfall of civilization... But it happens, time and time again.

One man's "unjust rich" is another man's economic opportunity ("a sucker and his money," and all that)...

Interesting statement....

So you don't have a problem with gas prices, $5 for a gallon of milk, etc....

they are just exorcising an "economic opportunity"...

Maybe....

Capitalism is the single best, and the single worst system in the world, all at the same time. Simply because of one thing, the human factor.

There are people I trust, but I don't trust people.

This.

Don't think for a minute the anti-gun folks have gone away or given up.

Hey, I made some money during the panic but I never sold anyone anything they had to buy to subsist. Why should I sell something for less money than everyone else? Besides, every penny I made during the panic went right back into firearms related purchases but I didn't buy anything affected by panic pricing. I didn't need to.
 

On the auctions I am watching the higher priced rifles aren't getting bids so I expect prices will start coming down.

An item is only worth what the customer is willing to pay for it.

If it's market driven, I have no problem with it. If it's artificially inflated by government meddling, however, it sucks. It'll eat into my profits, offset my my investments in the oil/gas industry of course.

If someone can undercut that $5 gallon of milk or whatever and take market share, they will.

Nobody owes me a "fair price" on anything. If I can't or won't accept the price, I'll find another option.

Don't get me wrong, I may piss and moan about it, but that's just the way it is...

I disagree the AWB may have had no chance but a mag ban could have easily slipped through.  And don't think thy are quitting.

The anti-gouging folks don't seem to realize that people were practically begging anyone willing to sell a rifle or magazine to take their money.

Nobody held a gun to anybody's head and made them do it. They chose to pay ridiculous prices. If you want to pay me $900 cash for a crappy WASR, or $50 a pop  for a magazine or three that's a "you" problem not a "me" problem.  All I did was get rid of a few unused things in the closet for a hell of a lot more than I paid for them. You call it gouging, I call it trading trash for NFA goodies and cash.

It's a moral issue... Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...  

If someone doesn't get that, they never will.

Now I won't go so far as to say all workers are guaranteed low prices... This sounds like socialism... But I will say that fair pricing is the moral thing to do.

If the SHTF, and guns/magazines/ammo become necessary, then it would be gouging, and a very dangerous proposition, as desperate people will do desperate things, like pay $1000 bucks for a crappy AK.

I'm just saying that I am a big believer in Karma... What comes around, will go around.... no two ways about it.

As for "do unto others," there are plenty of folks willing to sell me high prices stuff every day. I'm free to refuse if I don't want it or feel the price exceeds the value.  It happens all the time. I don't immediately buy everything I want from the first place I can find.  If I find what I want, think the price is acceptable, and have the money I buy it, otherwise I don't. Karma has jack shit to do with it.

You say you're not a socialist, yet you spout their dogma... What's that all about?

So if someone offered you $1k for a crappy AK you'd refuse?

Do you work for 1970s wages, because people charge too much for their services today?

Oh no boss, don't give me a raise, I don't deserve it...

Gimme a break.

I sold a guy an AR and he needed some ammo for it. Because he didn't want to wait and hunt around local stores for some I reluctantly sold him some of mine. I did not want to sell him ammo but he wanted some to go shoot thing and he didn't want to take the time to find it. I ended up selling him 100 rounds at $1 each and I have no problem with it. Neither did he.
 

So are we morally wrong when we sell Apple stock at 100 when we bought it at 20?  Are we morally wrong when we look ahead, see problems coming, and prepare for OUR family, but not everyone else in a 3 mile radius?  I should sell them ammo at the price I paid only?  Uh, NO!  So I paid 14 bucks for that brick of .22 shells.  In these times, when I don't know if I can or will be able to replace them, I am going to be much more inclined to hold them unless offered a rediculous price.  It is not immoral.  They are worth much more to me than they were when I could routinely pick them up for 14.00 ea, unlimited.

I always get a kick out of the pawn shop shows.  People get all incited and angry when the pawn dude only offers them 30 bucks for their 300.00 10yr old television.  "IT IS WORTH 10 TIMES THAT!!!".....Maybe to you, but to the pawn guy, who has to mark up a profit and then sell the 10 yr old TV to SOMEBODY, it is worth 30 bucks.  YOu don't like it, go open your own shop and pay 300 bucks for all the 10 yr old TV's yourself.   See how long you stay in business.

And from reading this, if it were truly SHTF, and I had 3 cases of MRE's, and the family who did nothing to prepare had none, I would be immoral for a) not selling any of them to the family, and B) not selling them at the price I paid because the "really" need them.  It matters not that in 3 weeks, I will be out also.

Doc

You're a gouging, profiteering yuckyman, you are... please send money to the estate of Steve Jobs.

Socialism is the single best, and the single worst system in the world, all at the same time. Simply because of one thing, the human factor.

Funny how that works for every system.

I think parts and ammo will be tough to get for quite a while.

That right there is what corrupts the true form of capitalism.

Socialism as theory and system involves nothing of theft.  That is why, Socialism is the single best, and the single worst system in the world, all at the same time. Simply because of one thing, the human factor.

Funny how that works for every system.

Hell no... not my point....
I'm not saying you must share what you have with he who has none. That's a decision only you can make.

What I'm saying is, if you are in the business of selling stuff, after SHTF, and you jack the prices up 1000% becasue not everyone has what you offer, then you have moral problems. Especially if everyone needs your product.
But that's just my opinion, yours may be or is different. That is what makes the world go round.



Guy, I don't have all the answers...

No system is perfect, but I'm not for socialism... fact.

Life is about choice, and as long as you make the choices that let you sleep at night, you're golden. I'll make the choices that let me sleep at night.

I guess we'll figure it out in the next life.

True Story:
There is a company with a contract, no names..... They were hired to provide X service..... In the contract, due to the fact "Things Happen" The contracting agency said that they will accept 95% of the X service at a minimum.
The contracted company is coming up for rebid on the 5 year contract. They know that other companies will bid on the contract and try to low ball it. So they are cutting cost and becoming lean, getting ready for it.
The contracted company is now looking at the contract as "You are only paying me to provide 95% of X service, so what can we cut out so we don't provide more than that. Why are we giving them 99.5%.
I'm sorry, but to me, and the spirit of the contract, the contracted company should provide as close to 100% of X service as they can. The 95% tolerance is because factors sometimes don't allow them to be, and the contracting agency doesn't want, or shouldn't want them to be in breach of contract. so they have 5% tolerance.
This the type of "human" experience I am talking about in Capitalism... Instead of "We will accept 95%" it is now, "you only pay us to provide 95%". It really makes my eye twitch.


Of course not, if someone throws cash in your face, it's a different story.
What I won't do, is see other people selling an AK for $1000, and listing mine for the same to get a higher profit margin.
I will examine what I have in it, the condition of the weapon and list it acordingly.... probably in the $350 -$400 range for a crappy AK, less for an extremely crappy Ak, and $5-600 ish for a Lancaster, etc.




I'll drink to that.



We've gone way off topic, and I'll say 'sorry' for that.


On Topic: Prices will remain high as long as people believe they will make a profit. It will take alot of 'no sale' to get them to relinquish the high profit margin.

I have a friend in the gun business.. AND the following holds true in ANY business:
You have to sell whatever your business sells at a profit, or you will be OUT of business & your family on welfare.
If you can not get resupply of the goods you sell- or the restock of the goods is much more than normal, you HAVE to charge more for what little you have or shut your doors!
It will likely start working itself out after the panic slows down.  I doubt that it will get all the way back to pr-election prices though & if a NEW incident gets going, it coud go higher yet!
Say I have a couple of gold Krugerands that my Dad bought for $80 ea., is it gouging if I sell them for a lot more because I did not pay $1600 apiece for them??

Well said .
I believe in a free market but I also believe that we have an obligation to be better that what we have shown ourselves to be

I'm still waiting for any explanation that makes sense how making a profit is "gouging", or "doing something you know in your heart is wrong"...  Nobody is robbing anyone, they're willing to give you a certain amount of money for a thing and you're taking it.  Seriously, WTF?

I don't think morally speaking that selling something you already own for a higher price than you bought it is a problem.  Most decent dealers kept there prices pretty reasonable. The problem is that the trash of our society sat in front of computers all day buying all available stock of everything from parts to mags with the sole intention to immediately resell on aution sites for criminal prices and take advantage of people that have to work all day and couldnt be either online at the store the minut intentory came in  I think that's why most sellers put quantity limits on most product. It reall wasn't about low stock so much as trying to curb the scalpping.

The high prices will come to an end once the ass raping price gougers die.

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I swear if one more person uses the word gouging again, I am FOing.