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Posted: 6/11/2016 7:59:49 PM EDT
[#1]
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after reading the ATC transcript..... I would hate to be that controller in more ways than one. So sad about the family. I was working as a controller several years ago when a family of 4 died in Bonanza that crashed on Christmas eve. I was not working them but was listening in as it happened. As hard as it was on all of us, I can't imagine what it was like for the rest of their family. what year? where? I tried to look it up but didn't find it. About ten years ago. They crashed about five or six miles north of the Chattanooga airport. The pilot could not maintain assigned altitude or heading being vectored for the approach and crashed near the outer marker. This one? http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20061227X01848&key=1&queryId=5fc846a5-71d4-4aab-ada5-ea5bcb60415a&pgno=1&pgsize=50 That is the one, I was a couple days off relative to Christmas Eve. It's one of those that I have often thought that "if only we had......" it might have turned out different. It was a slow bad weather evening and the approach was combined in the tower using the bright scope. I was on break sitting in the cab. When we realized that the pilot was not going to be able to fly the approach, I ran downstairs and was setting up the scope to attempt an ASR. Unfortunately he crashed before I had a chance to talk to him. It's been a long time but my memory is that the tops were not that high. I would have liked to get him to climb on top to get situated and fly a long straight in ASR. We don't know how long the pilot knew that he was having some sort of issues (possibly inner ear problems causing vertigo). If we had known sooner it would likely have been handled differently. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:02:29 PM EDT
[#2]
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:11:13 PM EDT
[#3]
It says they got fuel at koun then on to khou. 2 hour 10 minute flight, aircraft holds 5 hours of fuel. Either they didn't top off or fuel starvation wasnt the problem. Just because it didnt burn doesnt mean it was out of gas.
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:15:36 PM EDT
[#4]
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It says they got fuel at koun then on to khou. 2 hour 10 minute flight, aircraft holds 5 hours of fuel. Either they didn't top off or fuel starvation wasnt the problem. Just because it didnt burn doesnt mean it was out of gas. I'm not convinced that fuel was a problem either. If it was, it wasn't mentioned in the article and nothing was said in the transcript. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:19:07 PM EDT
[#5]
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If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. She may not have realized that she was low on fuel. She may have forgotten to switch tanks. She may have gotten low on the tank she was running on, then badly coordinated a turn and sloshed the fuel away from the bottom of the tank, starving the engine for a moment (I am not familiar with the Cirrus' systems, so this is pure speculation on my part, but it has happened with other aircraft, and the fuel systems of those other aircraft were updated to reduce the odds of a repeat incident). It may have not involved a fuel issue at all, since this has not been confirmed by anyone involved in the investigation. Often turns out to be a series of things that combine to cause the crash - one or two main causes, with several contributing factors. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:20:31 PM EDT
[#6]
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If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. This. People work with the knowledge you give them "I'm low on fuel" "I'm inexperienced" "I'm unfamiliar" 'I'm on a first solo" |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:21:48 PM EDT
[#7]
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It says they got fuel at koun then on to khou. 2 hour 10 minute flight, aircraft holds 5 hours of fuel. Either they didn't top off or fuel starvation wasnt the problem. Just because it didnt burn doesnt mean it was out of gas. Quote HistoryQuoted:
It says they got fuel at koun then on to khou. 2 hour 10 minute flight, aircraft holds 5 hours of fuel. Either they didn't top off or fuel starvation wasnt the problem. Just because it didnt burn doesnt mean it was out of gas. Fire department at the crash said there was no hazmat situation. No fire and no fuel spill. If the aircraft had gas there would have been either a fire or a fuel spill Houston Fire department Capt. Ruy Lozano says there was no HazMat spill or fire as a result of the crash. http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/cirrus-sr20-n4252g-safe-aviation-llc.html?m=1 |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:24:54 PM EDT
[#8]
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I know Hobby is a major hub for Southwest, so I can understand ATC having to weave the Cirrus in between 737s. But who was flying a 747 into such a small facility? The longest runways are just 7600ft long. Not much room for a 747 carrying much weight to get airborne when it was time to leave. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Noob question, do small planes like that land at large airports all the time? Hobby seems like odd place for that sized plane. Yes, Hobby is very friendly to general aviation. I know Hobby is a major hub for Southwest, so I can understand ATC having to weave the Cirrus in between 737s. But who was flying a 747 into such a small facility? The longest runways are just 7600ft long. Not much room for a 747 carrying much weight to get airborne when it was time to leave. I lived on the north side of Hobby most of my life. You would be surprised what comes in there. 
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:28:41 PM EDT
[#9]
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Beats dying. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. Closest divert would have been Ellington. I'm not sure she would have been greeted warmly there. Beats dying. Ellington is no longer a base. It's a civilian airport with NASA and the TX ANG located there. No problems for her to divert there. This pilot would have been better off going there in the first place or to one of the 12 public business or general aviation airports around Houston instead of planning to use Hobby. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:33:38 PM EDT
[#10]
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This. People work with the knowledge you give them "I'm low on fuel" "I'm inexperienced" "I'm unfamiliar" 'I'm on a first solo" Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. This. People work with the knowledge you give them "I'm low on fuel" "I'm inexperienced" "I'm unfamiliar" 'I'm on a first solo" From the transcript posted earlier, she didn't seem to be providing any information like that, and apologized after asking for a clarification. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:39:09 PM EDT
[#11]
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Fire department at the crash said there was no hazmat situation. No fire and no fuel spill. If the aircraft had gas there would have been either a fire or a fuel spill http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/cirrus-sr20-n4252g-safe-aviation-llc.html?m=1 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It says they got fuel at koun then on to khou. 2 hour 10 minute flight, aircraft holds 5 hours of fuel. Either they didn't top off or fuel starvation wasnt the problem. Just because it didnt burn doesnt mean it was out of gas. Fire department at the crash said there was no hazmat situation. No fire and no fuel spill. If the aircraft had gas there would have been either a fire or a fuel spill Houston Fire department Capt. Ruy Lozano says there was no HazMat spill or fire as a result of the crash. http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/cirrus-sr20-n4252g-safe-aviation-llc.html?m=1 There would probably have been a spill, but it is possible for a crash to result in the fuel remaining in the tanks. First crash I can recall happening while I was working at the airport it occurred at, a Cessna cartwheeled through some treetops, then dropped into a field. The only reason fuel was running out of it, was that the left wingtip ended up sitting on the ground, and the fuel was gravity flowing out of the main vent on the left wing. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:40:15 PM EDT
[#12]
I land at that airport several times a month. Be it in our jet or our Bonanza. Frequently enough that half the time the controllers ask if I want to circle from 12R to 17 before I even have the chance to ask for it. One of the easiest Bravo airports in the country but that woman was just in just way over her head.
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:42:57 PM EDT
[#13]
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There would probably have been a spill, but it is possible for a crash to result in the fuel remaining in the tanks. First crash I can recall happening while I was working at the airport it occurred at, a Cessna cartwheeled through some treetops, then dropped into a field. The only reason fuel was running out of it, was that the left wingtip ended up sitting on the ground, and the fuel was gravity flowing out of the main vent on the left wing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It says they got fuel at koun then on to khou. 2 hour 10 minute flight, aircraft holds 5 hours of fuel. Either they didn't top off or fuel starvation wasnt the problem. Just because it didnt burn doesnt mean it was out of gas. Fire department at the crash said there was no hazmat situation. No fire and no fuel spill. If the aircraft had gas there would have been either a fire or a fuel spill Houston Fire department Capt. Ruy Lozano says there was no HazMat spill or fire as a result of the crash. http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/06/cirrus-sr20-n4252g-safe-aviation-llc.html?m=1 There would probably have been a spill, but it is possible for a crash to result in the fuel remaining in the tanks. First crash I can recall happening while I was working at the airport it occurred at, a Cessna cartwheeled through some treetops, then dropped into a field. The only reason fuel was running out of it, was that the left wingtip ended up sitting on the ground, and the fuel was gravity flowing out of the main vent on the left wing. I agree it is possible, but those wings came apart at impact. I can't imagine both tanks and all the fuel lines stayed intact, especially if full of fuel, but you are right it could happen. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:53:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryPossibly if new pilots were taught to fly the plane solely by those 3 little Round gauges you see on the bottom instead of those huge flat panels they'd turn out better pilots. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 8:54:32 PM EDT
[#15]
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Possibly if new pilots were taught to fly the plane solely by those 3 little Round gauges you see on the bottom instead of those huge flat panels they'd turn out better pilots. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Possibly if new pilots were taught to fly the plane solely by those 3 little Round gauges you see on the bottom instead of those huge flat panels they'd turn out better pilots. Children of the Magenta......but damn that is a nice cockpit. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:00:32 PM EDT
[#16]
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Possibly if new pilots were taught to fly the plane solely by those 3 little Round gauges you see on the bottom instead of those huge flat panels they'd turn out better pilots. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Possibly if new pilots were taught to fly the plane solely by those 3 little Round gauges you see on the bottom instead of those huge flat panels they'd turn out better pilots. Nope |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:08:14 PM EDT
[#17]
That fucker fell out of the sky, that was no landing.
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:09:28 PM EDT
[#18]
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'Ma'am, ma'am, straighten up, straighten up': Air traffic controller's tragic last words to woman piloting a plane with her husband and his brother before she crashed and killed all three
<snip> These folks were very highly thought of around here. Notice that there's no fuel spillage at the crash site or signs of fire? I bet fuel state had a lot to do with the crash. Prayers for the surviving family.. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:10:33 PM EDT
[#19]
I have said it before and I'll say it again, incorrect flap settings and no fuel will kill you.
There was no fuel on board that airplane, it was out of gas. You can tell, no explosion when it landed and no fuel spraying out of the wings when they broke off. Sad. 
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:21:58 PM EDT
[#20]
That transcript is a clusterfuck.
I hope to hell they didn't run her out of fuel. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:26:07 PM EDT
[#21]
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If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. I don't let my car get below 1/4 tank and that's not gonna plummet to the ground if I run out. If I was a pilot, I'd watch that thing like a hawk!!! Which is one of the many reasons I'm not a pilot. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:28:18 PM EDT
[#22]
National Transportation Safety Board investigators were back on the scene Friday to take measurements and dismantle the wreckage. A federal investigator said Friday the plane was in a flat spin when it fell nose-first out of the sky. Dana Gray was piloting the plane. Her husband Tony and his brother Jerry were the passengers. They were heading to Houston from Norman, Oklahoma to visit the brothers' father. He is a patient at MD Anderson Cancer Center. Audio from the Air Traffic Control tower indicates Dana Gray was trying to land between two 737s when she became confused. Air traffic controllers at Hobby Airport twice ordered Dana Gray to go around and make another attempt at a safe landing. Investigators say she was approaching the runway at too high of an altitude on the first and second attempts. "For one reason or another, was directed to go around on the first approach. And for one reason or another was directed to go around on the second approach, on the third approach, the pilot decided on her own," said NTSB investigator Tom Latson. In a recording from the Air Traffic Control tower just before the crash, a controller is heard telling the pilot, "Ma'am, ma'am, straighten up! Straighten up!" Investigators say it looks as though there was an attempt to deploy a parachute on the aircraft, but it did not launch in time to make a difference. They said the rocket for the parachute launched when the aircraft crashed, but the parachute never deployed. Authorities still don't know what altitude that attempt was made. Last year, the same type of plane deployed its parachute and landed safely in a northwest Harris County neighborhood after the pilot reported having engine problems. The manufacturer of this particular plane and the engine are part of Friday's investigation in parking lot at Gateway Hardware and Rental. Investigators say after they are wrapped up Friday the aircraft will be taken to Dallas and stored in a secured facility there until this investigation is completed. Dana Gray got her pilot's license in 2014. It's not clear if she had experience landing at a large, busy airport like Hobby. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:30:47 PM EDT
[#23]
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That transcript is a clusterfuck. I hope to hell they didn't run her out of fuel. The information posted earlier, indicates that the attempts to land lasted for around 20 minutes. She should have planned for finishing the flight with at least 30 minutes of fuel left in the plane, though I have heard a few pilots bragging that the new digital fuel gauges let them know exactly how much fuel they have left (one Bonanza owner stated that he finished a flight with less than three gallons left in the tanks). She did not state to the controller (based on the transcript) that she was low on fuel. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:34:44 PM EDT
[#24]
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That transcript is a clusterfuck. I hope to hell they didn't run her out of fuel. If it was a fuel starvation issue the controllers did not do it, the pilot did. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:40:21 PM EDT
[#25]
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I don't let my car get below 1/4 tank and that's not gonna plummet to the ground if I run out. If I was a pilot, I'd watch that thing like a hawk!!! Which is one of the many reasons I'm not a pilot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. I don't let my car get below 1/4 tank and that's not gonna plummet to the ground if I run out. If I was a pilot, I'd watch that thing like a hawk!!! Which is one of the many reasons I'm not a pilot. Fuel gauges are probably the most inaccurate instruments on the panel of a light aircraft. The new digital gauges are more accurate, IF they are properly calibrated, but my experience indicates that they just give owners too much confidence in what the gauge is telling them. The pilot should know what the fuel burn rate (gallons per hour) is at a cruise power setting. The pilot should know how much fuel they had when they took off. From there it's a matter of doing the math, then adding a suitable reserve of fuel for any problems that occur at the destination (having to divert to another airport, delay in landing, etc). Or they can just play with the fancy gauges and expect them to not lie. ETA: Did a search for information on the Cirrus 20 tanks, and one of the first hits was a discussion on a forum for Cirrus owners. They were discussing whether or not it was a good idea to run the tank dry (run one wing dry, while leaving plenty of fuel in the other tank) to the point that the engine shuts down (then switch to the other tank and restart), in order to determine the "true fuel capacity and range" of their plane. A few apparently thought it was a great idea. Somebody disagreed and suggested it would be better to just drain the tank on the ground and refill it, to see exactly how many gallons the tank holds (which is the process we follow for calibrating gauges), and pointed out that the Cirrus Pilot's Operating Handbook (owners manual, for the non-aviation crowd) stated that if there was an imbalance in the tanks of more than 10 gallons, it had an impact on how the plane flies. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:46:26 PM EDT
[#26]
According to this map I think this is where the hardware store is (crash site).
https://www.google.com/maps?ll=29.63379,-95.285676&z=14&t=m&hl=en-US&gl=US&mapclient=embed&q=9000-9054+Old+Telephone+Rd+Houston,+TX+77075 From this link. http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/3-killed-in-small-plane-crash-near-hobby-airport/238147786     |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:46:41 PM EDT
[#27]
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Ellington is no longer a base. It's a civilian airport with NASA and the TX ANG located there. No problems for her to divert there. This pilot would have been better off going there in the first place or to one of the 12 public business or general aviation airports around Houston instead of planning to use Hobby. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. Closest divert would have been Ellington. I'm not sure she would have been greeted warmly there. Beats dying. Ellington is no longer a base. It's a civilian airport with NASA and the TX ANG located there. No problems for her to divert there. This pilot would have been better off going there in the first place or to one of the 12 public business or general aviation airports around Houston instead of planning to use Hobby. I'd agree that HOU was a bad choice. I thought Ellington was restricted now. My bad. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:49:41 PM EDT
[#28]
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I have said it before and I'll say it again, incorrect flap settings and no fuel will kill you. There was no fuel on board that airplane, it was out of gas. You can tell, no explosion when it landed and no fuel spraying out of the wings when they broke off. Sad. It wouldn't 'explode' even if the tanks were full. The SR20 has collector tanks separate from the 'wet wing' tanks, each holds aprox 3 gallons of useable fuel (30-min reserve). The 'wet wing' tanks could be completely destroyed while the collector tanks (in the root) remain intact. So such a blanket assertion is false. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:57:45 PM EDT
[#29]
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It wouldn't 'explode' even if the tanks were full. The SR20 has collector tanks separate from the 'wet wing' tanks, each holds aprox 3 gallons of useable fuel (30-min reserve). The 'wet wing' tanks could be completely destroyed while the collector tanks remain intact. So such a blanket assertion is false. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have said it before and I'll say it again, incorrect flap settings and no fuel will kill you. There was no fuel on board that airplane, it was out of gas. You can tell, no explosion when it landed and no fuel spraying out of the wings when they broke off. Sad. It wouldn't 'explode' even if the tanks were full. The SR20 has collector tanks separate from the 'wet wing' tanks, each holds aprox 3 gallons of useable fuel (30-min reserve). The 'wet wing' tanks could be completely destroyed while the collector tanks remain intact. So such a blanket assertion is false. I don't think I'm following you. What, about 3 gal collector tanks, will prevent a full wing tank from rupturing and spilling gas everywhere after a crash? And as long as there's gas everywhere why might it not catch fire once exposed to the myriad ignition sources available in a crashed aircraft? |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:58:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Damn
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:58:56 PM EDT
[#31]
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She managed to get that into a flat spin. Departure stall on the last go around? That rotation rate was fucking impressive. Good thing they missed all those propane tanks....I am flabbergasted they did not catch fire. I am awfully curious about that. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 9:59:43 PM EDT
[#32]
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Small planes scare the shit out of me. I knew three people who died in two separate plane crashes and one more who survived a crash. Meh, no more dangerous than driving. MOST GA accidents really are pilot error, exceeding limits and skills. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:00:40 PM EDT
[#33]
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Meh, no more dangerous than driving. MOST GA accidents really are pilot error, exceeding limits and skills. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Small planes scare the shit out of me. I knew three people who died in two separate plane crashes and one more who survived a crash. Meh, no more dangerous than driving. MOST GA accidents really are pilot error, exceeding limits and skills. Just like this case. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:01:07 PM EDT
[#34]
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I don't think I'm following you. What, about 3 gal collector tanks, will prevent a full wing tank from rupturing and spilling gas everywhere after a crash? And as long as there's gas everywhere why might it not catch fire once exposed to the myriad ignition sources available in a crashed aircraft? I never said they would prevent such a thing. If they were down to the fuel in the collector tanks that would mean the wing tanks were empty....thus no spill. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:05:47 PM EDT
[#35]
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I never said they would prevent such a thing. If they were down to the fuel in the collector tanks that would mean the wing tanks were empty....thus no spill. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't think I'm following you. What, about 3 gal collector tanks, will prevent a full wing tank from rupturing and spilling gas everywhere after a crash? And as long as there's gas everywhere why might it not catch fire once exposed to the myriad ignition sources available in a crashed aircraft? I never said they would prevent such a thing. If they were down to the fuel in the collector tanks that would mean the wing tanks were empty....thus no spill. You said, "It wouldn't 'explode' even if the tanks were full" and then went on to talk about collector tanks. Guess that's why I'm lost. So you agree with the other guys assertion that the tanks were probably empty? |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:08:46 PM EDT
[#36]
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I never said they would prevent such a thing. If they were down to the fuel in the collector tanks that would mean the wing tanks were empty....thus no spill. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't think I'm following you. What, about 3 gal collector tanks, will prevent a full wing tank from rupturing and spilling gas everywhere after a crash? And as long as there's gas everywhere why might it not catch fire once exposed to the myriad ignition sources available in a crashed aircraft? I never said they would prevent such a thing. If they were down to the fuel in the collector tanks that would mean the wing tanks were empty....thus no spill. The wing tanks gravity feed into the collector tanks, then (if I follow the system correctly) the fuel is pumped to the engine. The moment the wing tanks run completely dry, there is still 6 gallons of fuel in the plane (enough for 30 minutes of flight). Correct? |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:08:51 PM EDT
[#37]
Plane load of friends got killed at Hobby in 2000. I knew every single one of them and had flown on that plane before.
Fatal plane crashes are very strange... One minute people are alive and the next they are all dead and family and friends are left to figure it all out. It does not help that most are somewhat wealthy with complicated estates, it is always a mess. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:10:10 PM EDT
[#38]
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Meh?MOST GA accidents really are pilot error, exceeding limits and skills. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Small planes scare the shit out of me. I knew three people who died in two separate plane crashes and one more who survived a crash. Meh?MOST GA accidents really are pilot error, exceeding limits and skills. General Aviation excluding turbine aircraft is most definitely more dangerous than driving. Schedule Airlines on the other hand is many times safer. Night VFR flying is probably the most unsafe way to travel. Just the nature of the beast. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:11:12 PM EDT
[#39]
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You said, "It wouldn't 'explode' even if the tanks were full" and then went on to talk about collector tanks. Guess that's why I'm lost. So you agree with the other guys assertion that the tanks were probably empty? If they were down to the fuel in the collector tanks, then the tanks were not empty. The 'wet wing' tanks may have been empty, but its possible the collectors were not. That would be a situation where they were not fuel starved and explain no visible leakage. I have no idea how much fuel that had. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:17:37 PM EDT
[#40]
Looking at those aftermath stills, I don't see how it didn't burn, unless it was out of gas. That impact and disposition of the A/c would have kept a spill right there with the hot engine and sparks from impact.
A student pilot killed the best C-150 I had ever flown, N5689G at Cherokee County Airport, GA back in 1996/1997 and the only reason he did not turn into a charred hulk was because the engine mounts broke. Both wings were ripped back from the fuselage at the root, but because the engine came off, the plane tilted backwards and the fuel gushed to the rear and away from the engine. Dumb motherfucker was on his first solo and forgot to add right rudder to counter the torque. In a 150. I probably still have the pictures I took of it in a box somewhere. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:17:43 PM EDT
[#41]
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The wing tanks gravity feed into the collector tanks, then (if I follow the system correctly) the fuel is pumped to the engine. The moment the wing tanks run completely dry, there is still 6 gallons of fuel in the plane (enough for 30 minutes of flight). Correct? Yes (IIRC) they each hold 3gal useable so roughly 30min depending on power setting. The pilot still has to switch them to use it all, so you could starve the engine with 3gal left if you don't switch. I also seem to remember a condition where uncoordinated flight could starve the engine once the tanks get below a certain level, yet not close to being empty. Its been a while so I might be remembering wrong. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:25:12 PM EDT
[#42]
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According to this map I think this is where the hardware store is (crash site). https://www.google.com/maps?ll=29.63379,-95.285676&z=14&t=m&hl=en-US&gl=US&mapclient=embed&q=9000-9054+Old+Telephone+Rd+Houston,+TX+77075 From this link. http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/3-killed-in-small-plane-crash-near-hobby-airport/238147786 http://www.wfaa.com/img/resize/content.khou.com/photo/2016/06/09/plane2_1465498242535_2855156_ver1.0.JPG?preset=534-401 E http://static.lakana.com/media.fox26houston.com/photo/2016/06/10/New_details_in_plane_crash_that_killed_3_4_1421607_ver1.0_640_360.jpg http://www.khou.com/img/resize/content.khou.com/photo/2016/06/09/plane3_1465499268367_2855318_ver1.0.JPG?preset=534-401 http://cdn.winknews.com/wp-content/uploads/20160609161247/HoustonplanecrashJune9.png The tower can see the parking lot where the plane went down. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:27:42 PM EDT
[#43]
I've also see close up pictures after the wreckage was moved. Very little liquid under the plane after impact.
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:28:41 PM EDT
[#44]
I don't believe this was fuel related. This was pilot distraction and overload for an inexperienced pilot. You can tell she was losing it at the end, couldn't get her tail number right, she was flustered and put all attention inside the cockpit (GPS), lost control of the plane. ATC probably could have helped her a little bit more, shouldn't have given her so much at once on the last transmission, but hey hindsight is 2020.
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:36:39 PM EDT
[#45]
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General Aviation excluding turbine aircraft is most definitely more dangerous than driving. Schedule Airlines on the other hand is many times safer. Night VFR flying is probably the most unsafe way to travel. Just the nature of the beast. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Small planes scare the shit out of me. I knew three people who died in two separate plane crashes and one more who survived a crash. Meh?MOST GA accidents really are pilot error, exceeding limits and skills. General Aviation excluding turbine aircraft is most definitely more dangerous than driving. Schedule Airlines on the other hand is many times safer. Night VFR flying is probably the most unsafe way to travel. Just the nature of the beast. People say this shit, but do they ever think about it? Does burning a heavier fraction of oil for propulsion extend some sort of shield of invincibility to the airplane? I have my doubts, as air ambulance helicopters and many agricultural aircraft burn jet A but that shit is dangerous as hell. Otherwise, statistics factor in just about every type of GA operation out there and I'm sorry but there is an extreme difference between a simple cross country flight here in the lower 48 and some bush operation in AK, even if both types are conducted using aircraft certificated as "Airplane, single engine, land." Another thing - people die every day on the roads and it gets but a fraction of the media coverage compared to an aircraft accident. Of course, driving is commonplace - a fact of life for damn near everyone. The reality is that every one of us is a corroded tie rod away from laying under a yellow tarp but nobody looks at it like that. Unless someone was drunk, dying in a car accident is "normal" but if someone dies in an airplane accident it's the fault of some stupid, worthless retarded fucking pilot. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:37:12 PM EDT
[#46]
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From the transcript posted earlier, she didn't seem to be providing any information like that, and apologized after asking for a clarification. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. This. People work with the knowledge you give them "I'm low on fuel" "I'm inexperienced" "I'm unfamiliar" 'I'm on a first solo" From the transcript posted earlier, she didn't seem to be providing any information like that, and apologized after asking for a clarification. It's common. I've told pilots in briefings on the freq, or on the phone Always always ask for clarification or say the great word "unable". |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:38:55 PM EDT
[#47]
You can see the northwest corner of the airport on the bottom. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:48:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
She may not have realized that she was low on fuel. She may have forgotten to switch tanks. She may have gotten low on the tank she was running on, then badly coordinated a turn and sloshed the fuel away from the bottom of the tank, starving the engine for a moment (I am not familiar with the Cirrus' systems, so this is pure speculation on my part, but it has happened with other aircraft, and the fuel systems of those other aircraft were updated to reduce the odds of a repeat incident). It may have not involved a fuel issue at all, since this has not been confirmed by anyone involved in the investigation. Often turns out to be a series of things that combine to cause the crash - one or two main causes, with several contributing factors. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. She may not have realized that she was low on fuel. She may have forgotten to switch tanks. She may have gotten low on the tank she was running on, then badly coordinated a turn and sloshed the fuel away from the bottom of the tank, starving the engine for a moment (I am not familiar with the Cirrus' systems, so this is pure speculation on my part, but it has happened with other aircraft, and the fuel systems of those other aircraft were updated to reduce the odds of a repeat incident). It may have not involved a fuel issue at all, since this has not been confirmed by anyone involved in the investigation. Often turns out to be a series of things that combine to cause the crash - one or two main causes, with several contributing factors. This... Hardly ever just one issue... Combine possible fuel issue, inexperienced pilot who will not speak up to ATC when in trouble and gets flustered in a high traffic airport pattern and looses focus on fuel, power, attitude, speed, etc, controller not recognizing the problem and not working her in... Any single issue isn't a problem. Start adding them up and things get dangerous fast. Sad.. Didn't have to happen. |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:51:08 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's common. I've told pilots in briefings on the freq, or on the phone Always always ask for clarification or say the great word "unable". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm no pilot, but if I was up in the air and my fuel was running low, and the ATC was fucking me around, I'd find someplace to land and figure I would sort it out with the FAA later. If the pilot realized that the aircraft was low on fuel she should have said so. If she had declared an emergency stating that she was about to run out of fuel, those airliners would have all been going around and she would have been number one for any runway. This. People work with the knowledge you give them "I'm low on fuel" "I'm inexperienced" "I'm unfamiliar" 'I'm on a first solo" From the transcript posted earlier, she didn't seem to be providing any information like that, and apologized after asking for a clarification. It's common. I've told pilots in briefings on the freq, or on the phone Always always ask for clarification or say the great word "unable". Admit a lack of complete comprehension of every word transmitted over the radio??? Tell someone on the ground that you are unable to do something??? |
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Posted: 6/11/2016 10:58:11 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People say this shit, but do they ever think about it? Does burning a heavier fraction of oil for propulsion extend some sort of shield of invincibility to the airplane? I have my doubts, as air ambulance helicopters and many agricultural aircraft burn jet A but that shit is dangerous as hell. Otherwise, statistics factor in just about every type of GA operation out there and I'm sorry but there is an extreme difference between a simple cross country flight here in the lower 48 and some bush operation in AK, even if both types are conducted using aircraft certificated as "Airplane, single engine, land." Another thing - people die every day on the roads and it gets but a fraction of the media coverage compared to an aircraft accident. Of course, driving is commonplace - a fact of life for damn near everyone. The reality is that every one of us is a corroded tie rod away from laying under a yellow tarp but nobody looks at it like that. Unless someone was drunk, dying in a car accident is "normal" but if someone dies in an airplane accident it's the fault of some stupid, worthless retarded fucking pilot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Small planes scare the shit out of me. I knew three people who died in two separate plane crashes and one more who survived a crash. Meh?MOST GA accidents really are pilot error, exceeding limits and skills. General Aviation excluding turbine aircraft is most definitely more dangerous than driving. Schedule Airlines on the other hand is many times safer. Night VFR flying is probably the most unsafe way to travel. Just the nature of the beast. People say this shit, but do they ever think about it? Does burning a heavier fraction of oil for propulsion extend some sort of shield of invincibility to the airplane? I have my doubts, as air ambulance helicopters and many agricultural aircraft burn jet A but that shit is dangerous as hell. Otherwise, statistics factor in just about every type of GA operation out there and I'm sorry but there is an extreme difference between a simple cross country flight here in the lower 48 and some bush operation in AK, even if both types are conducted using aircraft certificated as "Airplane, single engine, land." Another thing - people die every day on the roads and it gets but a fraction of the media coverage compared to an aircraft accident. Of course, driving is commonplace - a fact of life for damn near everyone. The reality is that every one of us is a corroded tie rod away from laying under a yellow tarp but nobody looks at it like that. Unless someone was drunk, dying in a car accident is "normal" but if someone dies in an airplane accident it's the fault of some stupid, worthless retarded fucking pilot. No, but by the time most people move up to turbine aircraft, they have a shitload of hours. Arriving at a shitload of hours is generally the result of not being stupid and not getting dead. So, not because turbines are magic, the pilots tend to have more experience and tend to be safer pilots. |
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