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Posted: 10/22/2019 11:43:38 PM EDT
[#1]
From what I have read, Vietnam infantryman carried far more than 180rds. Dr William Atwater said that his guys were carrying around 1k each.
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Posted: 10/22/2019 11:46:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I have read, Vietnam infantryman carried far more than 180rds. Dr William Atwater said that his guys were carrying around 1k each. |
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Posted: 10/22/2019 11:48:42 PM EDT
[#3]
https://loadoutroom.com/774/roger-andersons-lrrp-loadout/
He carried 20 mags, 20 rounders, loaded. There’s another Vietnam LRRP site that I think said they carried 24-30 mags. Will look for it & return: ETA: 34 20 round mags https://sofrep.com/43024/the-guns-and-gear-carried-by-special-ops-sog-recon-teams/ |
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Posted: 10/22/2019 11:52:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Wasn't there some past historical references about Vietnam that they had to retrain because of soldiers basically going through there 5 or 6 mags on full auto? |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 12:08:46 AM EDT
[#5]
My dad was a LRRP guy. He carried a 12 gauge ithaca pump with I think 100 rounds of buck on bandoleers. He said he also carried the radio and belts for the m60 and spare socks. That's all he cared about on patrol was dry feet and ammunition.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 12:11:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I have read, Vietnam infantryman carried far more than 180rds. Dr William Atwater said that his guys were carrying around 1k each. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 12:18:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Grunts carried tons of ammo. 180 was for "regular" people.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 12:27:58 AM EDT
[#8]
OP! Which records play music faster? Those at 33rpm, 45rpm, or 78rpm?
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Posted: 10/23/2019 12:31:54 AM EDT
[#9]
I remember speaking with a Vietnam veteran who was Infantry. He told me that their biggest problem at the time was that they were only issued 5 X 20 round magazines. While they were supplied with so much ammunition that they ran out of room to store it, and had to instead burn it to destroy it, the supply system simply would not give them more than the 5 magazines that the upper echelons thought they needed. As such, guys were killed trying to load magazines when they should have been able to fire had they been issued more magazines. This was his own personal experience, and not second or third hand rumors that he had heard from somebody else. The 20-round magazines only lasted so long before they started issuing 30 round magazines. Take it for what it is worth to you.
-K |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 1:13:44 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What did YOUR research determine? You did some, yes? |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 1:14:46 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP! Which records play music faster? Those at 33rpm, 45rpm, or 78rpm?  
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Posted: 10/23/2019 1:48:43 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I dunno they probably all sound the same to you In your research, did you find evidence of a unit actually running out of ammo? |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:10:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My dad was a LRRP guy. He carried a 12 gauge ithaca pump with I think 100 rounds of buck on bandoleers. He said he also carried the radio and belts for the m60 and spare socks. That's all he cared about on patrol was dry feet and ammunition. I don' recall how much he carried. He died about 5 years ago from a massive heart attack. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:14:21 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a cousin that also was also a LRRP and carried a 12 gauge. He claimed the (possible CoC violation for an ethnic slur used during the war for Vietnamese) apparently would think it was a grenade launcher and jump in front of him when he was point on patrol thinking the grenade would not arm in a short distance. I don' recall how much he carried. He died about 5 years ago from a massive heart attack. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My dad was a LRRP guy. He carried a 12 gauge ithaca pump with I think 100 rounds of buck on bandoleers. He said he also carried the radio and belts for the m60 and spare socks. That's all he cared about on patrol was dry feet and ammunition. I don' recall how much he carried. He died about 5 years ago from a massive heart attack. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:14:44 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a cousin that also was also a LRRP and carried a 12 gauge. He claimed the (possible CoC violation for an ethnic slur used during the war for Vietnamese) apparently would think it was a grenade launcher and jump in front of him when he was point on patrol thinking the grenade would not arm in a short distance. I don' recall how much he carried. He died about 5 years ago from a massive heart attack. 
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:19:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I have read, Vietnam infantryman carried far more than 180rds. Dr William Atwater said that his guys were carrying around 1k each. He specifically mention how much ammo he carried in a humorous way. He said he stuffed his pockets, backpack, etc with as much ammo as he possibly could. He came up with a rough estimate of how much ammo he carried and asked how much we thought it weighed. I knew he had some idiots in the room literally trying to figure it out. They brazenly stood and shouted out their numbers and he would say “no” “no” “no” as each NCO tried guessing. When the room was getting crazy he finally said “ You want to to know how much it weighed? Me too. The only thing I can tell you is that it weighed a fucking lot.” Here he is https://www.health.mil/Military-Health-Topics/Military-Medical-History/Military-Health-Medal-of-Honor-Recipients/Vietnam-Recipients/Colonel-Gordon-Ray-Roberts |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:22:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had a cousin that also was also a LRRP and carried a 12 gauge. He claimed the (possible CoC violation for an ethnic slur used during the war for Vietnamese) apparently would think it was a grenade launcher and jump in front of him when he was point on patrol thinking the grenade would not arm in a short distance. I don' recall how much he carried. He died about 5 years ago from a massive heart attack. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:39:28 AM EDT
[#18]
This is going off statistics out of Vietnam where they said something like a quarter of a million rounds per enemy combatant killed.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:50:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Dudes in Vietnam humped a lot of ammo.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:51:32 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is going off statisticians out of Vietnam where they said something like a quarter of a million rounds per enemy combatant killed. What are YOUR actual thoughts and facts on these topics? Any facts at all? |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 2:56:26 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is going off statistics out of Vietnam where they said something like a quarter of a million rounds per enemy combatant killed. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 3:04:51 AM EDT
[#22]
I don't know what they did in VN, but we carried 210 each (7 mags). A big part of not blowing through ammo is a squared away team leader controlling his dudes and giving fire commands...etc.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 3:30:55 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know what they did in VN, but we carried 210 each (7 mags). A big part of not blowing through ammo is a squared away team leader controlling his dudes and giving fire commands...etc. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 3:32:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who said? Sounds like a liberal source. You have a citation? |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 3:34:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, saigaman thread. I should know better. I blame myself. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 3:35:57 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Soooo, how many, well anybody, carried a quarter million rounds in the field? You don't analyze well, do you? Somebody says a "quarter million" and another says American MREs suck ass. Did the "quarter million" include rounds only by infantry, or include aircraft's aft, naval ships and artillery? What are YOUR actual thoughts and facts on these topics? Any facts at all? So my original statement of 250 thousand was incorrect (misquoted) still 50 thousand seems like a lot. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 3:37:57 AM EDT
[#27]
This book "The American Infantryman in Vietnam" has pages that discuss this:
https://www.amazon.com/Life-Year-American-Infantryman-Vietnam/dp/0891418296 Complaints included not having enough canteens or running out of room on web gear. Not having enough M16 mags was probably not a widespread thing. Some guys would do things like carry 20 M16 mags in claymore bags. 20 round mags were kept with between 16 and 20 rounds. I've heard the Dr Atwater quote about guys carrying 1500 (I think he said 1500, it was kind of slurred) rounds of ammunition. That's the highest number I've ever heard and have never read anything that indicates more than that. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 4:42:08 AM EDT
[#28]
87 seconds
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Posted: 10/23/2019 5:03:48 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, saigaman thread. I should know better. I blame myself. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 5:40:33 AM EDT
[#30]
Ranger in the GWOT, turned Kiowa pilot later, told me 7 mags would last a couple mins.
Most SF, Ranger, infantry types turned Warrant told me similar estimates over my years of asking. From this I learned that trained men with a logistics tail burn lots of ammo. I stack it deep. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 6:20:23 AM EDT
[#31]
My memory is dimming but here is what I recall. 20 magazines, 18 rounds each, our fire team also carried a few cans with ammo on zip clips. Each encounter was different, pinned down by a sniper we usually just hunkered down and a Cobra went to work, very little ammunition used except by the fire team on point. Night encounters meant much more rounds used. Because we were shook up!
In our case we were working the Ho Chi Minh trail so our basic function was to find them, engage and bring in artillery or air support. Generally they were on a different mission, avoid us and get their men and supplies past us successfully. The exception was the Cambodian Incursion where they were intent on stopping us. Lots of attacks on LZs and line companies, mostly at night. Lots of bang bang. Never experienced a shortage of ammunition. We were resupplied every 3 days, just ask for it and it arrived. Air mattresses were the exception as were new boots, but you can't have everything! |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 6:49:32 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know what they did in VN, but we carried 210 each (7 mags). A big part of not blowing through ammo is a squared away team leader controlling his dudes and giving fire commands...etc. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 6:52:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I have read, Vietnam infantryman carried far more than 180rds. Dr William Atwater said that his guys were carrying around 1k each. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 6:53:55 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at pics. In addition to the web gear pouches, they used the bandoliers that the stripper clips of ammo came in to hold magazines. 20 rounders fit perfect. Also carried 20rd boxes of ammo to reload mags with.Less noisy than mags knocking about. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 7:05:06 AM EDT
[#35]
Read that the round count per kill included ammo spent in training.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 7:22:12 AM EDT
[#36]
Here is my buddy Dwarf as we moved into a log site. Somewhere in all that stuff is his bandoliers, i am guessing he put those on first then saddled up his ruck. We wore them Mexican bandito style.
Second photo is him and me a couple of years ago.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 7:25:27 AM EDT
[#37]
My brother served in the Marines and patrolled on and over the DMZ. He said they carried as much ammo as they could bear. Besides your own 4.56 ammo most guys also carried 200-400 rnds for the Gun (M60). Everyone wanted the Gun to be able to lay down cover.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 7:36:33 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They do, actually, but the record speed thing is nearly a direct comparison. Perhaps, while you taste test various countries MREs, you could evaluate whether more of a loadout was used during a heavy attack/ambush/counter attack, versus a "not so major" of those things. In your research, did you find evidence of a unit actually running out of ammo? |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 7:37:00 AM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 10/23/2019 7:38:54 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I have read, Vietnam infantryman carried far more than 180rds. Dr William Atwater said that his guys were carrying around 1k each. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 7:45:34 AM EDT
[#41]
An old neighbor was Marine Infantry back in the M-14 days of Vietnam. He mentioned carrying 20 x 20 rd. mags for the M-14 plus belts for the M-60.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 7:56:35 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is my buddy Dwarf as we moved into a log site. Somewhere in all that stuff is his bandoliers, i am guessing he put those on first then saddled up his ruck. We wore them Mexican bandito style. Second photo is him and me a couple of years ago. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/29984/Dwarf_elephantgrass_copy_jpg-1134650.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/29984/SteveDoug_Now_jpg-1134651.JPG If you're ever in Austin, I'd love to buy you guys a beer!
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Posted: 10/23/2019 8:02:56 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
50 twenty rounders? I doubt that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
From what I have read, Vietnam infantryman carried far more than 180rds. Dr William Atwater said that his guys were carrying around 1k each. All I really did was perimeter patrol. Ah, the joys of a walk in the country side with your 782 gear. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 8:04:33 AM EDT
[#44]
With the issuing of the M16 TTPs changed, both formally and informally (at the unit level), at least in the initial years. This was the first weapon that afforded every Infantryman full auto capability and my understanding is that guys, in particular the newbies, would burn through ammo. Not hit very much but burn through it nonetheless.
Carrying a 1000 rds of 5.56 for your individual weapon? That seems pretty excessive unless it was planned operation and that ammo was consolidated somewhere in support of the operation. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 8:05:59 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My memory is dimming but here is what I recall. 20 magazines, 18 rounds each, our fire team also carried a few cans with ammo on zip clips. Each encounter was different, pinned down by a sniper we usually just hunkered down and a Cobra went to work, very little ammunition used except by the fire team on point. Night encounters meant much more rounds used. Because we were shook up! In our case we were working the Ho Chi Minh trail so our basic function was to find them, engage and bring in artillery or air support. Generally they were on a different mission, avoid us and get their men and supplies past us successfully. The exception was the Cambodian Incursion where they were intent on stopping us. Lots of attacks on LZs and line companies, mostly at night. Lots of bang bang. Never experienced a shortage of ammunition. We were resupplied every 3 days, just ask for it and it arrived. Air mattresses were the exception as were new boots, but you can't have everything! |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 8:12:36 AM EDT
[#46]
Where your stationed dictates a lot as well. The office worker in the safe zone always says in the gun store they only carried a couple mags.
When living in Los Angeles one might carry a 380 & 38 everyday but if you had a meeting in downtown everyone I knew took a full size 9mm and a couple mags after the riots. Hot zones dictate more rounds. |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 8:46:16 AM EDT
[#47]
I asked a friend who was in Viet-nam about his experience in fire fights about the average number of rounds he would fire, his response was "as many as I could, or all of them, depending on the situation."
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Posted: 10/23/2019 8:57:46 AM EDT
[#48]
If you haven’t seen or listened to the Jocko Podcast #180, 181, 182 with John Stryker Meyer take the time. He was a SOG guy during the Vietnam was. Crazy stories and talked about their typical load out of 700 rounds of ammo.
 Jocko Podcast 180 w/ John Stryker Meyer: Covert Lessons from "Across The Fence." |
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Posted: 10/23/2019 9:10:01 AM EDT
[#49]
It doesn't. A typical firefight would not and doesn't consume all of ones ammunition.
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Posted: 10/23/2019 9:19:47 AM EDT
[#50]
I work with a Vietnam vet (retiring in December). I'll ask him when he stops by the office this AM.
He wasn't a rifleman though...I mean the whole time in Vietnam he avoided the M16. He started out as an M60 machine gunner. I think he carried about 250-400 rounds on his person and then divided up more belts among folks on the patrol. So add a belt of 308 to the typical rifleman loadout lol. Interesting note: He hated the m60 because he was the priority target on patrols. Once promoted, he preferred the 12 gauge with flechettes or dragons breath if it was dark. Not even kidding. Dude is/was a killer. Hearing him talk about Vietnam...yea it was hell. |
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