Quoted: I left a note on Sparky's youtube Bushco imperialist warmonger video rants. He sent me an IM back with this. M113A3 Super Gavins, 0 U.S. dead No one has died inside an up-armored Super Gavin. Many have died in Stryker truck turds. Your prejudices are false. You lose. Liar. (Reply)   (Delete)   (Block User)   (Mark as Spam)

Wasn't Medal of Honor Winner Smith in an M113 when he was killed?

Might also want to consider SGT Steven White, killed when his M113 ran over a land mine in 2003.

Or SPC Mike T Sonoda Jr.
Maybe SSG Daniel R. Scheile (23 SEP05)
And SGT Paul Neybauer (23SEP05)
Pvt Michael Deutsch was killed in this one in July 2003.

Maybe SSG Andrew Pokorny, (23JUN03)

Heck, I couldn't be arsed to look for any more names of people killed inside M113s.

NTM

Quoted: I just watched it on Weaponology, Grate armor is used to defeat shaped charge explosions. For what they saud the optimum distance for the expolsion is 5". anything farther lessens the effect.

The correct stand-off distance for a shaped charge depends on the diameter of the shaped charge.  I want to say that it's 1.5 times the diameter but it's been a long time and my memory is fuzzy. That 5" figure is probably the correct standoff for the most commonly used RPGs over there.  A larger warhead would have a larger optimal standoff distance.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just watched it on Weaponology, Grate armor is used to defeat shaped charge explosions. For what they saud the optimum distance for the expolsion is 5". anything farther lessens the effect. The correct stand-off distance for a shaped charge depends on the diameter of the shaped charge.  I want to say that it's 1.5 times the diameter but it's been a long time and my memory is fuzzy. That 5" figure is probably the correct standoff for the most commonly used RPGs over there.  A larger warhead would have a larger optimal standoff distance. Depending upon the explosives used, materials used for the cone, etc, the standoff is 1-1.5 times the diameter, and the penetration is 1-1.5 times as well.  Most military weapons are around 1.5, with homemade stuff running around 1 because it is less effective.

All of that is really a moot point, since the optimum standoff is engineered to the specific round with the point containing a device at that range, which sends a signal to the detonator at the base of the charge.  Thus any round initiated by the armor cage will be detonating approx. up to 5" beyond optimum standoff.

Quoted: Wasn't Medal of Honor Winner Smith in an M113 when he was killed?

IIRC, he was on the M2 when a round struck the top of the M113 and bounced off, killing him.  If the M113 had been equipped with a proper ballistic shield like the new ones in the above pics are (I think the Vietnam-era M113 turrets even had steel shields around them, the .mil seems to be a bit slow with learning and remembering its lessons) he probably would have lived.

Anyway, how do do the uparmored M113s hold up against IEDs?  How well do the Stykers do?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I just watched it on Weaponology, Grate armor is used to defeat shaped charge explosions. For what they saud the optimum distance for the expolsion is 5". anything farther lessens the effect. The correct stand-off distance for a shaped charge depends on the diameter of the shaped charge.  I want to say that it's 1.5 times the diameter but it's been a long time and my memory is fuzzy. That 5" figure is probably the correct standoff for the most commonly used RPGs over there.  A larger warhead would have a larger optimal standoff distance. Depending upon the explosives used, materials used for the cone, etc, the standoff is 1-1.5 times the diameter, and the penetration is 1-1.5 times as well.  Most military weapons are around 1.5, with homemade stuff running around 1 because it is less effective. All of that is really a moot point, since the optimum standoff is engineered to the specific round with the point containing a device at that range, which sends a signal to the detonator at the base of the charge.  Thus any round initiated by the armor cage will be detonating approx. up to 5" beyond optimum standoff.

absolutely, i think that RDE and hoplo were confusing standoff with penetration from warhead geometry

Quoted: Quoted: I can vouch for that, I have heard "Gavin" before and I have never ever seen or heard anything directly made by Sparks or  "Combat Reform" until today. In the realm of nutjob claims, this one sounds reasonable - many military vehicles have a name (or several over their lifespan) so it's something that if heard by someone that doesn't know better is not something that really trips your radar as being unreasonable. The whole Gavin thing started in a sidebar in this 1995 article in Armor Magazine. www.knox.army.mil/armormag/jf95/1sparks95.pdf Why are we calling APCs M113s after all these years? The M113A3 is airdroppable and easily airlandable; why not name it the Gavin Airborne Infantry Fighting Vehicle or Airborne Infantry Personnel Carrier, after the legendary U.S. Army General James Gavin? The first time that 'Gavin' ever appears in reference to M113 is in this article, which, incidently, advocates that M113 is generally better than M2 Bradley. Forgot to mention, Sparky also believes that Airborne is the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. I'll give him this, he's good at PR. The whole reason he chose Gavin was that he wanted to equip airborne troops with it, and thought that using an Airborne general's name in association might help swing people around to his line of thinking. NTM

The 'parachute rigger' part is starting to come into focus here....

Quoted: Quoted: I didn't read all 5 pages, so I'm not sure if this has been said. When an M113 burns, its road wheels will often melt flat to the ground, turning a simple tow home into a massive recovery effort that takes a large amount of troops almost all day (mostly due to the large security effort required when you stay out in the open for hours on end while trying to recover a big metal square). We gave a lot of 113s to the iraqi army (that, and T-72s, which is another issue to which I'll only say: don't give a cave man a rocket launcher). Its not only the M-113 that has road wheels that melt... i10.tinypic.com/4ophvld.jpg i7.tinypic.com/6ch3ytk.jpg i13.tinypic.com/4xxwtjc.jpg

The bottom M1 was, IIRC, hit by at least one AGM-65 'Maverick', in an attempt to prevent useful technology from being captured... Don't know about the top one - never seen that pic before...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I didn't read all 5 pages, so I'm not sure if this has been said. When an M113 burns, its road wheels will often melt flat to the ground, turning a simple tow home into a massive recovery effort that takes a large amount of troops almost all day (mostly due to the large security effort required when you stay out in the open for hours on end while trying to recover a big metal square). We gave a lot of 113s to the iraqi army (that, and T-72s, which is another issue to which I'll only say: don't give a cave man a rocket launcher). Its not only the M-113 that has road wheels that melt... i10.tinypic.com/4ophvld.jpg i7.tinypic.com/6ch3ytk.jpg i13.tinypic.com/4xxwtjc.jpg The bottom M1 was, IIRC, hit by at least one AGM-65 'Maverick', in an attempt to prevent useful technology from being captured... Don't know about the top one - never seen that pic before...

the top two pics don't look like Abrams to me... the smoke grenade launcher is all wrong, there are panels in odd places on the turret, and what is the big box thing the cannon is monted to/coming out of?

Quoted: Sparky also has a hatred for the Marines, apparently also. Even tracked vehicles can get stuck, apparently. Although its harder than wheeled vehicles, it can be done.

Never been a fan of the Styker personally (more specifically with the Sparky-esque one-size-fits-all attitude that some of it's proponents push (Where the damn thing can replace every combat vehicle in the Army)), but Sparky is nutzo in his devotion to the M113...

A rigger LT-for-life who has an unrealistic love of all things Airborne, and all things M113...

Quoted: Quoted: Is it true nobody has been able to the figure out his actual military background? Has nobody in internetland ever met him on person - or served with him? He tries to keep to himself. He shows up on the AKO white pages with gibberish instead of his unit identifier. Assuming his rank is indeed as shown on AKO, and that he was indeed an officer when he wrote his 1995 Armor Magazine officer (as claimed), he's got to have one of the slowest promotion progressions in history. Near as can tell, he enlisted in the Marines, but just how long he stayed in (Or even if he passed out of MOS school (or whatever you call it)) is open to debate. Found one chap on a web board from his unit who claimed he never served an active day at all, but this doesn't really match up with Spark's claim to have been an NCO. Unless you can be an LCPL in AIT, I guess. He then went off to get a degree in college and attempted to rejoin the Corps to become an officer, but the Marines evidently failed to recognise his inherent genius and didn't give him a commission. He holds a serious anti-Corps grudge. Eventually he found his way to a Lieutenant's commission in the National Guard, and is assigned to a rigger unit in NC or GA or thereabouts. There is little indication that he knows the first thing about armoured vehicles from first-hand experience. Not many M113s in rigger units, I'll wager. NTM HOw can you consider an m113 a Light tank? It's not. If anything, the Bradley or stryker would be a better candidate for that term, but not the m113. Excuse me, "Gavin".

He seems to think the 113 can be modified to fit any combat role... Now granted, it has done many of them (ADA vehicle, mortar carrier, APC, and so on) but some of them are a bit out there...

The last 'light tank' we had in service was the Sheridan (unless you count the 4 XM-8 AGSs that the 82nd has now)....

Quoted: Quoted: Wasn't Medal of Honor Winner Smith in an M113 when he was killed? IIRC, he was on the M2 when a round struck the top of the M113 and bounced off, killing him.  If the M113 had been equipped with a proper ballistic shield like the new ones in the above pics are (I think the Vietnam-era M113 turrets even had steel shields around them, the .mil seems to be a bit slow with learning and remembering its lessons) he probably would have lived. Anyway, how do do the uparmored M113s hold up against IEDs?  How well do the Stykers do?

I've seen 'up-armored' M113s on static display with some sort of fully-enclosed mini-turret (eg the gunner would stand in the vehicle, and his head (maybe) would be up in the turret) mounted over the hatch... Real low-profile (don't know how you could ever manage to aim and fire the weapon, much less traverse the turret (unless they motorized it)... Looked kind of wierd.... Probably post-VN too...

Quoted: the top two pics don't look like Abrams to me... the smoke grenade launcher is all wrong, there are panels in odd places on the turret, and what is the big box thing the cannon is monted to/coming out of?

They look like Challenger 2s:

The big box thing is the Thermal Optical Gunnery System (Thermal Imager), which is mounted on the gun mantlet. Means there's very little parallax and it's good for gun LOS determination, though it can be an issue at high angles of super-elevation.

The tank in question (Both pics) is the one that was destroyed by another Challenger 2 in its Blue-on-Blue during the initial invasion. A HESH round impacted the open TC's hatch. Highly unfortunate.

That said M1 roadwheels will melt just as easily: Like most roadwheels today, they're made of aluminium to make it easier for the crew to lift. One man can lift a tank roadwheel.

These used to be M1 Abrams roadwheels until the tank burned down.

Rest of the tank.

Anyway, how do do the uparmored M113s hold up against IEDs? How well do the Stykers do?

The Strykers have an excellent record overall. They're also less slab-sided, including underneath, and if they run over a pressure-detonated mine, they'll just lose a wheel and keep on going, unlike an M113 which is immobilised.

unless you count the 4 XM-8 AGSs that the 82nd has now

They were requested for Afghanistan duty several years ago, but were never delivered into service. The Bufords are still here in San Jose as of a year ago.

NTM

Quoted: Sparky also has a hatred for the Marines, apparently also. Even tracked vehicles can get stuck, apparently. Although its harder than wheeled vehicles, it can be done.

Yep, in '75 they got a 2.5T truck stuck at HLMR. Then they stuck a 5T tow truck trying to get it out. So they brought out a Track Retriever to recover both trucks and got it stuck. At that point they decided to wait till the ground dried up and dig them all out. Sometimes its best not to mess with Mother Nature.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Grate armor..... RPG's? I've always wondered this myself. I noticed the Brits use it on the Striker. Is it's purpose to detonate projectiles before they hit the vehicle? Can't really think of any other reason for it. Umm Americans? AFAIK we're the only ones using the slat armor on the stryker. UK - Striker US - Stryker Two completely different vehicles. US Stryker is wheeled, UK Striker is tracked, and so on.

In addition, you might be confusing photos with Australian ASLAV's

Example :

Quoted: He seems to think the 113 can be modified to fit any combat role... Now granted, it has done many of them (ADA vehicle, mortar carrier, APC, and so on)

I have a 1979 11H soldier's manual sitting here, with an illustration of a TOW M113 on the cover, kinda neat.

Anyhoo, what would a small, quick, up-armored (IED-and-RPG-resistant) armored vehicle equipped with a couple miniguns and/or recoilless rifles do?  Is this a realsitic idea, or does this belong on the Playstation?

Quoted: Old school VN gun truck "I dream of charlie" img127.imageshack.us/img127/8153/acelf9feb05237ai6.jpg

Great minds think alike.  I came back to this thread with the intentions of posting about using gun trucks for convoy protection.

And fer cryin out loud, bring back the damned Ontos!  If we cant do that(and I know we cant), use the M113 and make an Ontos'ish platform out of it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He seems to think the 113 can be modified to fit any combat role... Now granted, it has done many of them (ADA vehicle, mortar carrier, APC, and so on) I have a 1979 11H soldier's manual sitting here, with an illustration of a TOW M113 on the cover, kinda neat. Anyhoo, what would a small, quick, up-armored (IED-and-RPG-resistant) armored vehicle equipped with a couple miniguns and/or recoilless rifles do?  Is this a realsitic idea, or does this belong on the Playstation? 5/7 ton HEMMT gun truck? They were used in Vietnam a lot. I'm pretty sure I've seen them around in Iraq also. img127.imageshack.us/img127/2685/iraqace2152wc6.jpg Old school VN gun truck "I dream of charlie" img127.imageshack.us/img127/8153/acelf9feb05237ai6.jpg

My Engineer batt operated out of 5-ton dumptrucks.  we jury rigged the shit outta those puppies.  One had styker birdcage armor on it that we had appropriated.  Another had half a russian BRDM in the back with a MK19 mounted.  the rest were just as crazy.

All the Strykers I have seen with BDA was a structural issue not a shape charge jet penetration issue birdcage armor is designed to give the jet time to break up into the standard three pieces where it loses all of its penetration value. The heat and pressure of a super heated ductile metal is what does most of the damage if you can control the heat absorption you can probably defeat the jet, in lieu of that get something to scrub off the inertia before impact.
  PV-2 Huxley was the first casualty inside a M113 during the invasion a pg-7 went through the side of the hull and nailed him in the side of the throat and he subsequently bled out.  Aluminum is the worst thing to use to stop a shape charge aluminum burns and is real soft shape charges are really hot so it's like a hot knife through butter. Flat angles are the worst thing to have in a blast besides open exposed cavities the briscance from the initial blast impulse will mostly likes shatter a flat surface with in close proximity what you want are strong corners to take the first impulse and break it up.

   I was cleaning up the area where Cojone got hit when the vehicle was still out there on MSR. There was also a PLS full of DU super sabots that got hit and caught on fire we a bunch of German and French reporters showed up to investigate the carnage and I was happy to let the ass clowns pick up super sabots that were nice and black set them back down and commence to lighting up there cigarettes breathing in alpha like it was cool.

Quoted: Quoted: He seems to think the 113 can be modified to fit any combat role... Now granted, it has done many of them (ADA vehicle, mortar carrier, APC, and so on) I have a 1979 11H soldier's manual sitting here, with an illustration of a TOW M113 on the cover, kinda neat. Anyhoo, what would a small, quick, up-armored (IED-and-RPG-resistant) armored vehicle equipped with a couple miniguns and/or recoilless rifles do?  Is this a realsitic idea, or does this belong on the Playstation?

Anything with 'Minigun' and 'Ground Vehicle' in the same sentance belongs on Playstation...

Unless you turn the ROF *way* down and lock it there (eg use the multi-barrel capability for barrel cooling, not ROF), there's no point in having a mini on a ground vehicle...

Especially since if you kill the host vehicle's engines, it makes the minigun inoperative (miniguns are electric, and require a HUGE amount of juice, beyond what batteries can sustain)...

Further, you can't have qucik, small, and RPG/IED proof armor, while carrying that kind of firepower, unless you make it an RPV...

Quoted: Quoted: All the Strykers I have seen with BDA was a structural issue not a shape charge jet penetration issue birdcage armor is designed to give the jet time to break up into the standard three pieces where it loses all of its penetration value. The heat and pressure of a super heated ductile metal is what does most of the damage if you can control the heat absorption you can probably defeat the jet, in lieu of that get something to scrub off the inertia before impact.   PV-2 Huxley was the first casualty inside a M113 during the invasion a pg-7 went through the side of the hull and nailed him in the side of the throat and he subsequently bled out.  Aluminum is the worst thing to use to stop a shape charge aluminum burns and is real soft shape charges are really hot so it's like a hot knife through butter. Flat angles are the worst thing to have in a blast besides open exposed cavities the briscance from the initial blast impulse will mostly likes shatter a flat surface with in close proximity what you want are strong corners to take the first impulse and break it up.    I was cleaning up the area where Cojone got hit when the vehicle was still out there on MSR. There was also a PLS full of DU super sabots that got hit and caught on fire we a bunch of German and French reporters showed up to investigate the carnage and I was happy to let the ass clowns pick up super sabots that were nice and black set them back down and commence to lighting up there cigarettes breathing in alpha like it was cool. I have no clue what a lot of those acronyms mean other than DU.

shaped charges make aluminum armor burn and spall.  An ammo carrier full of Depleted Uranium (radioactive) round for a tank burned and a bunch of idiot press played with them, thus soaking up alpha particle radiation, espeically into their lungs by smoking.

Thanks for the retrans Sapper

Quoted: Quoted: Old school VN gun truck "I dream of charlie" img127.imageshack.us/img127/8153/acelf9feb05237ai6.jpg Great minds think alike.  I came back to this thread with the intentions of posting about using gun trucks for convoy protection. And fer cryin out loud, bring back the damned Ontos!  If we cant do that(and I know we cant), use the M113 and make an Ontos'ish platform out of it.

Ontos!Make Iraq disappear in smoke!

Show who don't know a pic of an Ontos,I'd like to have one!

Quoted: Thanks for the retrans Sapper

no prob

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Old school VN gun truck "I dream of charlie" img127.imageshack.us/img127/8153/acelf9feb05237ai6.jpg Great minds think alike.  I came back to this thread with the intentions of posting about using gun trucks for convoy protection. And fer cryin out loud, bring back the damned Ontos!  If we cant do that(and I know we cant), use the M113 and make an Ontos'ish platform out of it. Ontos!Make Iraq disappear in smoke! Show who don't know a pic of an Ontos,I'd like to have one!

Ontos!  You see it?  BOOM!  You no see no more!


Just think, 6 106mm Reckless Rifles, and a M-60 in a very small, not very well armored package that was fast, and very agile.  The armor issue could be somewhat rectified today though.

The USMC used them to great effect in the tight streets of Hue in 1968.    They drive full blast down the street, power slide, point the rifles at the target house, kick off all 6 rifles at once, and then put it in reverse.

I know they cant bring back the Ontos, but damned if they cant make something very similar with the Stryker/Striker(whichever one we have...fuckin plonkers have to copy our names) or on the M113.

ONTOS!




www.diggerhistory.info/pages-armour/allied/ontos.htm

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the Strykers I have seen with BDA was a structural issue not a shape charge jet penetration issue birdcage armor is designed to give the jet time to break up into the standard three pieces where it loses all of its penetration value. The heat and pressure of a super heated ductile metal is what does most of the damage if you can control the heat absorption you can probably defeat the jet, in lieu of that get something to scrub off the inertia before impact.   PV-2 Huxley was the first casualty inside a M113 during the invasion a pg-7 went through the side of the hull and nailed him in the side of the throat and he subsequently bled out.  Aluminum is the worst thing to use to stop a shape charge aluminum burns and is real soft shape charges are really hot so it's like a hot knife through butter. Flat angles are the worst thing to have in a blast besides open exposed cavities the briscance from the initial blast impulse will mostly likes shatter a flat surface with in close proximity what you want are strong corners to take the first impulse and break it up.    I was cleaning up the area where Cojone got hit when the vehicle was still out there on MSR. There was also a PLS full of DU super sabots that got hit and caught on fire we a bunch of German and French reporters showed up to investigate the carnage and I was happy to let the ass clowns pick up super sabots that were nice and black set them back down and commence to lighting up there cigarettes breathing in alpha like it was cool. I have no clue what a lot of those acronyms mean other than DU. shaped charges make aluminum armor burn and spall.  An ammo carrier full of Depleted Uranium (radioactive) round for a tank burned and a bunch of idiot press played with them, thus soaking up alpha particle radiation, espeically into their lungs by smoking.

Hehehehehe Hope they got sick!

bump

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

Stryker/Striker(whichever one we have...fuckin plonkers have to copy our names) or on the M113.

The Stryker and accompaning Brigade is named after this guy...

Private 1st Class Stuart S. Stryker was a U.S. Army soldier awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions during World War II. The Army Stryker vehicle is named in his honor and Robert F. Stryker.

Below is his Medal of Honor citation:

STRYKER, STUART S.

Rank and organization. Private First Class, U.S. Army, Company E, 513th Parachute Infantry, 17th Airborne Division. Place and date: Near Wesel, Germany, 24 March 1945. Entered service at: Portland, Oreg. Birth. Portland, Oreg. G.O. No.: 117, 11 December 1945.

Citation:

He was a platoon runner, when the unit assembled near Wesel, Germany after a descent east of the Rhine. Attacking along a railroad, Company E reached a point about 250 yards from a large building used as an enemy headquarters and manned by a powerful force of Germans with rifles, machineguns, and 4 field pieces. One platoon made a frontal assault but was pinned down by intense fire from the house after advancing only 50 yards. So badly stricken that it could not return the raking fire, the platoon was at the mercy of German machine gunners when Pfc. Stryker voluntarily left a place of comparative safety, and, armed with a carbine, ran to the head of the unit. In full view of the enemy and under constant fire, he exhorted the men to get to their feet and follow him. Inspired by his fearlessness, they rushed after him in a desperate charge through an increased hail of bullets. Twenty-five yards from the objective the heroic soldier was killed by the enemy fusillades. His gallant and wholly voluntary action in the face of overwhelming firepower, however, so encouraged his comrades and diverted the enemy's attention that other elements of the company were able to surround the house, capturing more than 200 hostile soldiers and much equipment, besides freeing 3 members of an American bomber crew held prisoner there. The intrepidity and unhesitating self-sacrifice of Pfc. Stryker were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service.

64,000 CPM was the reading I took off of it bare in mind it had been in a fire