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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:31:28 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:35:51 PM EDT
[#2]
2008 @ Ft Benning we qualified with irons ( B 2/47 )
the infantry guys qualified with either CCOs or ACOGs, not sure if they trained with irons at all. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:36:35 PM EDT
[#3]
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now.
Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:37:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Optics are standard equipment anymore. They do everything irons do but better and are much more reliable today than in years past. That said I still think irons need to be taught but I wouldn't waste too much time on them.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:38:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:43:25 PM EDT
[#6]
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1533784_Marines_qualify_on_ACOGs_now__WTF_.html
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:51:08 PM EDT
[#7]
There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work.
Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:52:50 PM EDT
[#8]
I get it that optics are good enough now that needing to be an expert with BUIS is not really a factor.
That being said, anybody who considers themselves a rifleman should at least know how to shoot decently with irons. Just incase. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:52:54 PM EDT
[#9]
The last group of Marines (at least from PI), did iron sights around 2011, iirc. I taught at MCT, and those that used the RCO in recruit training did much better at the MCT marksmanship package. We still taught a class on iron sight theory for BUIS/machine guns, and for a time also taught BUIS live fire. Later, we simply did the iron sight theory class, and had SDOs and MGOs on the machine gun range.
I did some research to see if I could find a confirmed use of BUIS in combat, and never could. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:54:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Irun sites faget!
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:56:45 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:57:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2008 @ Ft Benning we qualified with irons ( B 2/47 ) the infantry guys qualified with either CCOs or ACOGs, not sure if they trained with irons at all. I went through Infantry OSUT at Benning in 2005. Our rifle marksmanship started with carry handle irons on FN M16A4's. After we qualified with irons they took the carry handles off and put M68's (Aimpoints) on our rifles. We qualified with them as well. Not sure if anything has changed, just how we did it. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:58:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:58:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I went through Infantry OSUT at Benning in 2005. Our rifle marksmanship started with carry handle irons on FN M16A4's. After we qualified with irons they took the carry handles off and put M68's (Aimpoints) on our rifles. We qualified with them as well. Not sure if anything has changed, just how we did it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 2008 @ Ft Benning we qualified with irons ( B 2/47 ) the infantry guys qualified with either CCOs or ACOGs, not sure if they trained with irons at all. I went through Infantry OSUT at Benning in 2005. Our rifle marksmanship started with carry handle irons on FN M16A4's. After we qualified with irons they took the carry handles off and put M68's (Aimpoints) on our rifles. We qualified with them as well. Not sure if anything has changed, just how we did it. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:59:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. The Marines figured out recruits learn faster and do better when they do optics first. The brain has less to learn at once so improvement and confidence come sooner. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:59:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. The odds of something happening that disables your ACOG, but not your BUIS, or rifle are slim. I'm not aware of any cases of someone removing their ACOG, and using iron sights. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 8:59:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Infantry OSUT at Benning in 09 was all CCOs. Never used the irons once.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:01:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Boom |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:03:48 PM EDT
[#19]
At medium ranges, I out shoot my sons using iron sights vs their optics.
They can NOT understand how I do it. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:03:53 PM EDT
[#20]
I miss my .30cal. 1903 Rifle......
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:04:24 PM EDT
[#21]
Has scoring improved overall? Do new recruits shoot better than with irons?
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:05:08 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I miss my .30cal. 1903 Rifle...... What was General Pershing really like? |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:06:24 PM EDT
[#23]
So.... does this officially make me "Old Corps"?
FINALLY!!!  
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:06:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
My sons best friend just got home from Paris Island. He was telling us lots of funny stories and answering questions from my son, who ships off in June of 17. His friend had gone shooting with us several times prior to enlisting and thanked us for at least giving him a basic familiarization with the AR type rifle, as it made him more comfortable and confident. He had qualified expert and my son asked for specifics, IE whether he had to qualify with the iron sights in addition to the ACOG. His friend said they never used the iron sights at all, and all qualification shooting was with the ACOG. I kind of figured iron sights to be just as important as optics as they are less likely to fail. Anyone else know about this? I'm just kind of surprised. Optics are more reliable than iron sights. It can be argued that no one has ever had an optic go down and switched to iron in a combat situation. Rounds and time spent learning the more difficult and less effective irons could be spent on more advanced marksmanship using the issued optic. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:06:54 PM EDT
[#25]
I've seen an ACOG that survived an IED when the rifle it was sitting on did not.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:07:20 PM EDT
[#26]
They should certainly teach them how to use the BUIS, but wasting a bunch of training time having them master them is silly in 2016.
Optics vs irons changes nothing about the fundamentals of marksmanship |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:07:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At medium ranges, I out shoot my sons using iron sights vs their optics. They can NOT understand how I do it. Tell them it has something to do with magnets. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:08:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Irons or optics, the fundamentals of shooting remain the same.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:09:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell them it has something to do with magnets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
At medium ranges, I out shoot my sons using iron sights vs their optics. They can NOT understand how I do it. Tell them it has something to do with magnets. You could also teach them to shoot well.
There is a reason optics dominate shooting competitions. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:09:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Marines figured out recruits learn faster and do better when they do optics first. The brain has less to learn at once so improvement and confidence come sooner. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. The Marines figured out recruits learn faster and do better when they do optics first. The brain has less to learn at once so improvement and confidence come sooner. Far be it from me to tell them how to do things. I just thought, incorrectly is seems, that the Marines, being as steeped in tradition and their status as riflemen first, would always start with irons. If it works for them, good to go. My sons friend is a trip. He's always been one of those guys looking for something to challenge himself. He described boot camp at Paris Island as "Fun. It was the hardest thing I ever did, but I had fun doing it."
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:11:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Irons aren't as forgiving as the ACOG is.
Need to make a split second wind call? Done. Need to rapidly engage targets from 100 and 600 M? Done. I zero'd mine and that's about it. I do like shooting my personal rifle sans optics though. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:13:25 PM EDT
[#32]
I feel torn about this. I would never have thought about qualifying with anything other than irons, but on the other hand would not have wanted to go to war with anything other than optics. We used irons in OSUT and a lot in training, but only deployed with optics.
The right thing to do would be to make everyone qualify with both. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:13:56 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell them it has something to do with magnets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
At medium ranges, I out shoot my sons using iron sights vs their optics. They can NOT understand how I do it. Tell them it has something to do with magnets. Then they'll wonder how they work. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:15:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Very true, I was out at the range at 29 Palms not too long ago and the only people using iron sights were the Navy Corpsman and medical personnel. All Marines were using ACOG optics.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:16:27 PM EDT
[#35]
What's the failure rate for optics in the field?
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:19:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Ft Sill 2016 BCT iron.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:20:21 PM EDT
[#37]
These new Marines...
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:21:21 PM EDT
[#38]
It's a good idea teaching optics first.
I've spent quite a bit of time on Army ranges teaching dudes who learned on irons how to use optics. They CAN NOT understand it. It's too simple for the retarded to understand - put the dot on the target, pull the trigger. I've had people look through the aperture and use the dot as the front sight or do the reverse. I end up putting tape over both. Forget sighting the things in, it's pure magic. ...and this is the Army, I couldn't imagine the Marines. 
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:22:31 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Perhaps. I don't think people bitch about irons so much as they simply question the necessity and weight of them. I think ACOGs have a proven record and are argue my the best combat optic ever to grace the M4. Irons still have their place though. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:23:05 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These new Marines... exactly. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:25:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. The British already tried this.. Their soldier's marksmanship suffered dramatically... 
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:25:26 PM EDT
[#42]
I understand the robustness, quick target acquisition, and long battery life of current mil optics. I detest the move to ignore iron sights.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:25:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Perhaps. I don't think people bitch about irons so much as they simply question the necessity and weight of them. I think ACOGs have a proven record and are argue my the best combat optic ever to grace the M4. Irons still have their place though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Perhaps. I don't think people bitch about irons so much as they simply question the necessity and weight of them. I think ACOGs have a proven record and are argue my the best combat optic ever to grace the M4. Irons still have their place though. These people are called "People who have never tried to shoot in low light conditions". |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:26:11 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Far be it from me to tell them how to do things. I just thought, incorrectly is seems, that the Marines, being as steeped in tradition and their status as riflemen first, would always start with irons. If it works for them, good to go. My sons friend is a trip. He's always been one of those guys looking for something to challenge himself. He described boot camp at Paris Island as "Fun. It was the hardest thing I ever did, but I had fun doing it." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. That's why I was kind of surprised by it. Basic marksmanship should include basic iron sight use. The Marines figured out recruits learn faster and do better when they do optics first. The brain has less to learn at once so improvement and confidence come sooner. Far be it from me to tell them how to do things. I just thought, incorrectly is seems, that the Marines, being as steeped in tradition and their status as riflemen first, would always start with irons. If it works for them, good to go. My sons friend is a trip. He's always been one of those guys looking for something to challenge himself. He described boot camp at Paris Island as "Fun. It was the hardest thing I ever did, but I had fun doing it." We also take combat effectiveness pretty seriously too. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:28:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2008 @ Ft Benning we qualified with irons ( B 2/47 ) the infantry guys qualified with either CCOs or ACOGs, not sure if they trained with irons at all. 09 at Benning we qualified with CCOs. We spent about an hour using irons just to say we did. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:28:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The odds of something happening that disables your ACOG, but not your BUIS, or rifle are slim. I'm not aware of any cases of someone removing their ACOG, and using iron sights. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. The odds of something happening that disables your ACOG, but not your BUIS, or rifle are slim. I'm not aware of any cases of someone removing their ACOG, and using iron sights. Nevertheless, somewhere, someday it's going to happen (Murphy guarantees it!). Then, this poor SOB private is going to have to, in the heat of battle, try to remember one foggy class of iron sight theory he heard ONCE way back in boot camp! I just hope this doesn't lead to a dead priv...!! 
FYI- Old Corps Marine here, '77-'81. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:28:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. I'm not a marine, but I thought Murphy was. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:29:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Frankly...Irons just suck. They do.
I grew up on them, quallified with them many times...and they still suck. Put on a helmet, vest, plates, all the crap that goes with it...and you can never get correct head position with the irons. ACOG is better. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:29:57 PM EDT
[#49]
I heard that it's not because the Marine Corps wanted to, but because all their iron sights ended up on eBay.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:32:07 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I heard that it's not because the Marine Corps wanted to, but because all their iron sights ended up on eBay. 
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