Even though ole Lug thinks I have "lost my way" for some reason I need to chime in here. He's correct.
RTF's are a thing and will make entry into warm zones and will treat and evacuate wounded. They are FF's and go in with a police security team.  
The FF's aren't going to breach a door to make a dynamic entry but they do indeed make entry in many jurisdictions.

Gotta be honest, some of the other LEO responses here make me happy as hell that I worked in a well paid area, for folks who learned basic lessons decades ago.  And at places where solutions were not always shouted down...

Oh no- breaching tools cost money?!  Big fucking deal- sledges are cheap.  Halligans are very affordable.  Bolt cutters are free with every 10th burglary arrest.  (Seriously- we sourced a lot of breaching tools from old evidence items to be disposed of).  I bought breaching equipment for patrol multiple times at the end of budget years when it was use it or lose it time.

Oh no- how do you breach with shotguns?  Too dangerous, need purpose made ammo, etc....  Not really-  If you train your people up, they will know how to do it.  And regular ammo can be used, though it is not as safe for others and may not be as effective.  If that is all I have, and someone is shooting kids on the other side of the door, I will use what I have available.  And training priorities are a thing, shotgun breaching is not super difficult.  (Note- We did not train patrol on ballistic breaching, but at any given time there was usually 1-3 people available with designated breaching SBS 870’s from SWAT.  And patrol did have other breaching tools as well).

Shields cost money- yep.  But not that much!  Come on!  Spend 1K and you will have a basic ballistic shield capable of stopping all handgun and most rifle rounds.  Rifle shields used to be so heavy that we didn’t bother as they were not worth the weight, but with new armor technology (HDPE) the newer rifle rated shields are much lighter....  actually I just looked it up. A cheap Botach Battle Steel brand shield, 5.56 rated, is only $850.  Come on....

Basically at roll call I would ensure that between 6-10 patrol folks we had, at minimum:
40mm Less Lethal
Ballistic Shield
Door Breach Key
Sledge/Misc breaching tools like bolt cutters
Night vision

If any of this needed to come from the previous shift they handed them off to the incoming.  But we had multiples of everything.  So stuff was constantly coming in and out of patrol cars.  Shields basically transferred cars all day long.  

Nearly everyone had a rifle if they had been there more than a year or so to be trained up on them.

As I was SWAT, I had all the above in my car, plus a breaching 12 gauge, plus flash bangs, a gas bag full of CS and OC hand thrown and 40mm, etc etc etc.  I handed off my shield and 40mm all the time on scenes.

Lately they added helmets to the gear everyone on patrol has.  I tried for years to get those, issued out old surplus stuff we had when I could, but it took recent events for them to get th idea to just buy everyone a helmet.  


Long before all this, SOP was that the patrol Sgts carried a 40mm, a shield, and a door key.  This meant the gear arrived on scene, ready to be handed out.  However it is a better policy to have more than enough gear for everyone and to have it carried by the Officer/Deputy level folks.


I started in the mid-90’s as well.  Things that were specialized SWAT items gradually became standard patrol items.  Having stuff available for when it is actually needed is so much better than having it locked up in a tactical vehicle that you don’t have the keys for.  That might fly if- a really big if- you have a full time, 24 hr SWAT team on duty.  Not many of those around.  

I dealt with agencies that needed their eyes opened for patrol rifles and less lethal weapons.  It took me 2 entire years of work to create a rifle program from zero.  But my second program- LL, was an easy sell.  And when I went to another agency and revamped their programs it was not too difficult to get the needed support.

If your agency can’t afford to purchase basic stuff like sledge hammers, door keys, shields, rifles, less lethal, Tasers, etc, then you need to either drag them kicking and screaming into the current era, or you should go someplace where they use more common sense about what tools should be available.  Seriously- no rifles- walk.  No shields for patrol- walk.  Fuck it.  This is considered very basic stuff these days.

And if you are the type (we all know them) who can point out problems, but refuses to assist in creating solutions, then you kind of deserve to not have what you need.  If your agency is worth a damn you should be able to convince them that having basic breaching tools is worth the cost- but you may need to head that program up and become an instructor or SME.  Embrace it if you get that opportunity.  


Anyhow- Some of these replies!  Who gives a shit if I can throw a dead deer in the trunk- we didn’t ever do that!  We shot the damn things and send a message to the highway dept or gave it to a passing motorist.  My trunk had an AED, a couple boxes of flares, cones, all the stuff listed above, a bunch of armor, and a shitload of other needed stuff.  No room for a bicycle!   Not only did I have a shield but I had a ballistic blanket as well, as did several other patrol Sgts.    At any given time we could come up with multiple shields, multiple rifles, at least 1 or 2 40mm launchers, a couple breaching options, etc.  Just with what was available 100% of the time at any given hour.  This stuff is not specialized.  

And if your SWAT team is basically not of the opinion that everyone should have basics like shields, door keys, etc, that is an institutional problem as well.  Being gate keepers of training, skill sets, and gear is not what it is about.

And if you don’t have SWAT, and you don’t have anything like I am talking about, who the hell is expected to deal with a school shooting?  Or is it “good luck kiddos”?  Seriously- if you have a glaring hole in your agency’s skills and abilities, and it is not addressed, that is just negligent.  The year is 2022.  

Halligan tool- $300 (Amazon)
(Cheaper option- wrecking bar $50)

Sledge $40 (Amazon)

5.56 rated shield $850 (Botach)

Not exactly break the bank type stuff.  I am sorry if your agency is poorly funded and behind the times.  But if they have any BS budget items they have money for basic breaching tools.  Again- seized burglar tools are also known as breaching tools...


At least there are a few others replying who know how well you can break thru a building with just a sledge, who have breaching gear and training for their patrol folks.  My agency was not that tip of the spear by any means, but we were small enough that you could get stuff done, and big enough to see the need.  I always see the last ones to get with the times being the biggest agencies with money problems, and the smallest agencies (as they perpetually have money problems).    


Failing to plan for the possibility of this type of event is not an option.  If you can’t deal with it, start working on fixing that today.

FYI- I never was a designated breacher either.  Just a decently trained team member, instructor in many subjects, and scrounger/procurer of equipment for patrol and tactical needs.  This stuff isn’t that high level.  Actual breachers are experts on things like explosive breaching/etc.

Back when I did search warrants, there was a website I’d visit frequently to get insight into a variety of methods, tools, makeshift tools, and other hacks and it was for firemen….getting thru hud project doors, roll up doors from mini warehouses or storefronts, padlocks, going thru exterior and interior walls, roofs, dealing with suspended ceilings, etc, etc.

Added- For those who read my small novel:

A few fire folks were integrated onto SWAT, so we had good coordination and training.  

In an all out response like this fire was onscene for medical needs.  If we needed breaching help or tools we could get it.  The basic idea was to start grabbing victims, a team of FF plus one LEO for security if the situation was still ongoing.

Fire sitting back out where it is totally safe is a thing of the past on these things.

I haven’t read all the comments in this thread, but 15 years ago, as a SWAT member in bedroom community of Atlanta, I, and each team member had a master key that opened every school door in the county.  We conducted active shooter training with the entire student body of every school.   Teams trained monthly at different schools weekends/evenings

I was issued a plate carrier about 3 maybe 4 years ago....Its a Condor.  Has steel plates.  Its heavy but its rated for 5.56 and 7.62x39.

I am required to load it on the engine every shift.  I have descretion to tell my crew when to use them, but SOP is every active shooter or shots fired call we will wear them.  I can designate any other time I want to.  We do not wear them on every call.

I will say my particular Condor has held up beautifully, and is as comfortable as you could expect with metal plates.

The QC is spotty, because a lot of guys have worn holes in theirs.  We do not use them much at all.  They get used more during active shooter drill time than any other time of the year.

If it’s like the commercial steel school doors I’ve forced, with a sledge it ain’t gonna be quick.

By the time a tactical team arrives all the kids that are gonna die, are dead, and the shooter is either dead, or barricaded. Like this one.

Fire trucks can turn red lights green, to save lives.
Police need door opening devices for public buildings, particularly schools.

As stated before, many agencies have keys for schools.

I know this.  That’s completely different the first responding officer/s using a sawzall for breaching.

You might enjoy arguing with him. I think it’s a waste of my time.

Here's a pic of the back side of the school from the main thread.

Attached File


You're telling me one of those SUV's couldnt hit a wall at 20mph and punch through the stuccoed CMU or brick exterior?  Which part of that looks like a hardened facility with 12" thick concrete walls.

You also fail to grasp very simple fucking points.

Fire and PD show up about the same time in my city.  YOU DO YOU.

I carry some extra breaching tools I sourced on my own but most guys just have a crowbar. A well constructed heavy door and frame would give them a hard time under a lot of circumstances. It has been suggested that windows be considered for entry instead but certainly the layout would effect the viability of those options.

We have other breaching tools available but they would take time to arrive, not carried by every patrol officer. No keys, no breaching shotguns.

And I’m sure it works great in your city. I’ve been on scene needing FD/EMS for a good 15-20 min before they arrive.
Rural areas do not work like cities do.

OK, and....   there was context and also lack of context when this shit started.  

You are jumping into the middle.  That is ok.  But bottom line is mr. rlr refuses to listen to what could work in come cases, in a lot of cases.

What you're missing is that the weak masonry is overhanging the 1' tall foundation, which is solid concrete and will stop a car cold. It won't bounce up over something that high, it will be stopped. You also don't know which building he was in, and whether you could even make a clean run at the wall for that classroom.

I was thinking the same...I've never seen an entry door open to the hinge side. They're always inswing. Maybe they do different shit in Florida, but anywhere I've worked (contracting) the hinge pins and knuckles are inside.

ETA: That only applies to residential construction. Most commercial and public buildings are required to have doors that can be easily pushed open from inside the building.

I’ve agreed with you on most that you had to say, but don’t be an asshole to people that are simply speaking to you.
I would dare say most refuse to acknowledge what you’re says simply due to your sour attitude.

I honestly wasnt trying to be an asshole.  Sorry you feel I have a sour attitude.  

I was not tryint to project it on to you.  I was being descriptive about the situation.  

Sorry I came across the wrong way to you.

Understood.
I was trying to bridge the gap on the little side bar they had going.

No excuse.. I can list dozens of ways to open that door or enter a room..

I’ve installed these doors, I’ve installed the block around them, both solid and grouted block.. The frames are not only anchored to the surrounding blocks and walls but they are likely pour solid as well.. Your not going to open that door by attacking the frame.. since the doors open out, your not going to beat the door in...Drill a fucking hole with a hole saw in the fucking door reach your stupid hand inside and unlock the door.. Your don’t need to defeat the entire door, or pick the lock, drive a car/suv into the building..

Use a door breacher explosive charge.

I didn’t think it was just a Florida thing, but I havnt left the state much in the last 20 years.
The way I was told and didn’t investigate further, because it made enough sense to me was, canes and tornadoes can push a door in and they are stronger if they open out.. northers doors swing in so you don’t get trapped in by a snow drift.
If I’m wrong, teach me.
There’s enough Florida guys who can chime in if their newer houses have inner opening doors that are not in some kind of protected alcove.

Jealous of the rabbit tool.  We still use married irons for everything.  But then again over a decade on the job and I still appreciate making entry the loud way.

While getting shot at… yeah that’s gonna take quite a few guys to drill that hole because you’ll be piling them up

I appreciate the response. I know how we all can be aggravated with others responses. I can be the same way.
It’s all good

Not to mention the utter retardedness of trying to deliberately drive a Tahoe through a wall into a classroom packed full of dead or dying kids..great way to ensure you smush a few of them on entry.

Might as well go full Russian, and start issuing LAWs to patrol. Would certainly bring a much faster end to most pursuits...

I know plenty of Jakes that would have done it.

Instead the cops seems to have chosen to fuck around for a half hour rather than ask for two volunteers with the tools and experience needed to get the job done quickly,

Rabbits are great for inward swinging doors.  Irons are good at a lot of tasks.

This may it be the best event to quip about responders standing around until the Border Patrol walks up.

Most schools nowadays have doors that open out for two reasons - one, it is much harder to mule kick open from the outside, and two, for fire code reasons, people inside the room have to be able to push open the door away from them in case the people inside are massed against the door.

A decent commercial steel door or heavy wood outward opening door set in a steel frame is not going to open just by whacking it with a sledge.  Also, a standard patrol car or SUV is going to smash itself on the foot-tall concrete slab and will not likely have enough mass and velocity to breach a cinderblock wall filled with concrete and rebar.  A halligan tool or specialized power tools will get you in the door but are noisy, will take time, and potentially expose you to fire from the shooter.  Going in through the windows would probably be much faster.  

I work in a jail setting, so the only door breaching I do involves keys or pressing a button.  However, I used to work with our house arrest team of sworn deputies and they would respond to hot calls in their areas.  As such, part of my job was to outfit them with basic breaching tools and lightweight ballistic shields.  The breaching kits consisted of a sledge with a point on the back of the head, a 25 pound ram, and a large and small pry bar.  The sergeant and corporal for each team carried the breaching kit and shield, and some of the more motivated deputies carried the breaching kits and shields too.  If I remember right, the shields weighed about ten pounds and cost $1200, and each breaching kit was under $1000.

I found a manual the NYFD put together that showed how to breach any kind of door and I sent it to my house arrest guys after I got them the breaching tools.  It is long, but covers every kind of door you can think of: NYFD breaching guide

@ QP031
judging by your avatar, you are fire.............with that being said applying NFPA when have you ever seen an educational building have inward swinging doors for classrooms. They are always outward swinging for egress

Don't school classroom doors open outward? I remember my school classroom doors open outward, frame was made of metal, door was heavish metal and sometimes heavy wood, with a 6x30ish window slit.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but school doors tend to be solid core wood in heavy metal frames and open outward.  A ram or sledge is is not going to open one easily.  If you are a cop, better to carry a travelers hook or shove knife in the trauma plate pocket of your vest and know how to use one.  Of course no cop I have ever talked to about that knows what I am on about and when I explain most of them think I am a criminal myself.

Most school doors I have tried to use a shove knife on, have the anti break in device or whatever it is.  I can't remember having success with a shove knife at a school.  I use them quite frequently.

I’m not fire. I was a volly when I was young. Late 80’s.
I don’t know how school doors are across the country.

I'll reiterate what Fivefivesix stated above.

You are not moving that frame or going through that door with simple "breaching" tools, period.
Federal code states that all doors from classroom to corridor and from corridor to the exterior side of the building must open in the direction of egress in a fire emergency which means outwards with a panic device that will open the door regardless if it is locked or not. In fact kindergarten/ daycare classrooms must be ground level on an exterior wall with their own egress door to the exterior side.

The locksets are tough as hell as well. The ASSA ABLOY "classroom intruder" function locks have a large hardened deadbolts that go deep in the reinforced steel frames and can be locked with a key from the inside as well (which I'm sure this school didn't have 2072 function locks as I'm betting the shooter just turned a finger knob to lock the door). I can't say this as fact but considering this wasn't an affluent area, I'm thinking not as these are expensive and might not have been installed during updating the building.

The door itself is probably the weakest link but nothing you're going to beat down with brute force by hand irregardless of what tools you bring at least not in a timely fashion even without rifle rounds coming through it as you work. I do believe there are ballistic doors available but I don't have much experience with those, I do know they are prohibitively expensive. The doors in question in this instance, and Im guessing based on the age of the building, are probably multiple ply solid wood doors 1 3/4', 90 minute fire rated doors. These aren't the cheap, or expensive for that matter, residential doors in your house. These are commercial and by themselves they can weight 80- 100 lbs. I haven't tried, but my gut tells me that pistol rounds would probably struggle to pen. Rifle rounds would.

Then there are impromptu devices such as door wedges, door closer barricade sleeves and even the simple trick of hanging a kiddy chair on the lever of the lockset.

Now, with all that said, it's pretty evident that the idea is to keep someone out of the classroom for as long as possible to allow escape or for the intruder to lose interest and move on or for rescue to arrive. That's been the idea for the last 20-30 years, making the classroom as safe a haven as possible in these instances. Another bet, I might be willing to take is the shooter probably utilized some of the impromptu techniques as well. If this school participated in practicing these drills, I am sure he was watching and learning.  

Now, I will say this. I've had a substitute teacher employ all these tricks during a ALICE drill and had his class exit through the exterior door in the room and leave with the exterior door closing behind him. The exterior door is steel and completely flush on the outside.

I was able to gain access to the room in under two minutes without any damage to any parts and could, now that I figured it out, do it easily in half that time. But because of the nature of this site and rather large and growing amount of shitheads here, I will not disclose how any of it was done.

 

There is a difference in codes between residential and commercial.
As I understand it residential doors down south open out so hurricane winds cannot blow them open or inward.
Most interior doors open inward for safety reasons. Imagine opening a door into a hallway and you are hitting someone in the face.

I carry two on my everyday vest.
Different than conventional shove knives, but these are my favs. The big one works better on commercial doors, but I’ve only practiced with it. Too new to have used for real yet.
Like lug says, the small and jimmy pin thingy prevents an normal easy entry. There is a way around it that has worked a bunch of times, but again, I’m not teaching breaching to the next psycho ar owner.

Sounds likely for Austin.  Luckily Austin is it's own shithead separate from Texas.  

PD did force on force training in my wife's school a few summers ago. Didn't do a great job cleaning up because my wife found several Simunition she'll casings in her room when she came back

I don't know why any of you reply to tc556guy.  It's obvious he's trolling you, whether to get you locked or an outright ban.

I agree with Lug, you could teach the dumbest cop to use a K12 saw and he could get into a room easily.  

There are also some schools that you would be able to get through the wall using a vehicle. Just depends on the land layout.  

My wife's school has a set of ground level windows at an interior ramp between 1st & 2nd floors  that are 20 ft tall. I confirmed today that anyone could drive right up to it and right through it and it would give you full access to any part of the building on foot.

I remember waiting just as long for sheriff's department to arrive when I was a volunteer FF and a domestic broke out in the middle of a perfectly peaceful automobile accident

Highway Patrol ETA was an hour because it was midnight and they were all home for the night

If you mean the shield over the latch try a long travelers hook to get around it.  If the latch is actually installed correctly neither option will work, but how often do you see that in government architecture?  Only reason I would suggest a cop carry a shove knife is they are small, light, and thin so one could go in the pocket on their body armor.  

I recently got some Snydertools wallet shims I want to play with.  They seem to be a one time use tool though.

Do you ever respond to a conversation without belligerence?

You have a truck and tools.  It goes to scenes.  That in no way means it is available to the officer(s) responding to an active shooter who encounters a locked door.  Are you taking it inside to him and showing him how to use it?  Are you using it with a shooter on the other side?  If so, I’d really like to see that policy.  Is the officer retreating outside to track down the fire truck and ask to borrow a sawzall?

There is no circumstance based in reality where a cop is going to use a sawzall to cut a door lock while an active shooter is on the other side.  Zero.  None.

If you believe there is, great.  Doesn’t matter to me.  I’m just some internet troll.

I like that Zak tool gadget.  I haven't played with one before, but I want one.

Alright, I’m in!
I’m also off and bored…

I was talking about this, and I ASSume he is too.