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Posted: 12/12/2021 10:54:35 PM EDT
[#1]
With surplus ammo a thing of the past now, there's no reason on earth to want a .30 Carbine AR when you could do a .300BO AR.
And I'm no .300BO fanboy. I don't own one. Never have. It holds very little appeal for me and for the uses I have for rifles in general. But it's a hands-down better cartridge. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:06:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With surplus ammo a thing of the past now, there's no reason on earth to want a .30 Carbine AR when you could do a .300BO AR. And I'm no .300BO fanboy. I don't own one. Never have. It holds very little appeal for me and for the uses I have for rifles in general. But it's a hands-down better cartridge. There are lots of reasons, actually. The Carbine's are much more simple to operate and generally more user friendly to new users and non-gunny people. I just completed an academy that required qualification with an AR. Those therein who had never fired or handled an AR were visibly bewildered by the platform. As far as the cartridges...come on man, if the 300 BO is "better" than the .30 Carbine, then the 7.62x39 in "better" than the .300 BO, and the 7.62x51 is "better" than the 7.62.x39 etc. etc. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:33:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are lots of reasons, actually. The Carbine's are much more simple to operate and generally more user friendly to new users and non-gunny people. I just completed an academy that required qualification with an AR. Those therein who had never fired or handled an AR were visibly bewildered by the platform. As far as the cartridges...come on man, if the 300 BO is "better" than the .30 Carbine, then the 7.62x39 in "better" than the .300 BO, and the 7.62x51 is "better" than the 7.62.x39 etc. etc. Re-read my post. I said '30 Carbine AR. I didn't say '30 Carbine'. And the people posting in this thread by and large aren't non-gun people trying to learn to shoot for the first time. And the x39 isn't better because it has weird geometry that takes oddball magazines, and the x51 won't fit in an AR15. The .300BO is 'swap a barrel and go' simple for the existing AR user. It's a no-brainer. And again, I don't even own one. I'm just recognizing that the cartridge makes a lot of sense for the guy who wants .30 Carbine ballistics in an AR. Except that you can get those ballistics with starting loads, or go much higher if you need the extra performance. |
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Posted: 12/12/2021 11:55:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Re-read my post. I said '30 Carbine AR. I didn't say '30 Carbine'. And the people posting in this thread by and large aren't non-gun people trying to learn to shoot for the first time. And the x39 isn't better because it has weird geometry that takes oddball magazines, and the x51 won't fit in an AR15. The .300BO is 'swap a barrel and go' simple for the existing AR user. It's a no-brainer. And again, I don't even own one. I'm just recognizing that the cartridge makes a lot of sense for the guy who wants .30 Carbine ballistics in an AR. Except that you can get those ballistics with starting loads, or go much higher if you need the extra performance. I read your post correctly. The M1 Carbine holds certain advantages over the AR. It's lighter, it has a more slender profile, and its operation is more simple, and I say this as the owner of three AR's. I understand this is an AR-15 forum and therefore there's lots of love for the AR. But sometimes one has to think outside of that AR box. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:01:37 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read your post correctly. The M1 Carbine holds certain advantages over the AR. It's lighter, it has a more slender profile, and its operation is more simple, and I say this as the owner of three AR's. I understand this is an AR-15 forum and therefore there's lots of love for the AR. But sometimes one has to think outside of that AR box. You didn't read it correctly. Your second sentence betrays that. I did not make any comparison between the two different platforms. My comment was specifically towards the two different cartridges with both being in the AR platform. Whether I think your point is right or wrong is irrelevant; your point had nothing to do with my post.  |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 12:07:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are lots of reasons, actually. The Carbine's are much more simple to operate and generally more user friendly to new users and non-gunny people. I just completed an academy that required qualification with an AR. Those therein who had never fired or handled an AR were visibly bewildered by the platform. As far as the cartridges...come on man, if the 300 BO is "better" than the .30 Carbine, then the 7.62x39 in "better" than the .300 BO, and the 7.62x51 is "better" than the 7.62.x39 etc. etc. I can’t see in what way a carbine is any simpler to operate than an AR. Further it is definitely harder to field strip. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:20:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can’t see in what way a carbine is any simpler to operate than an AR. Further it is definitely harder to field strip. We've had this discussion before here - it's not that the mechanism is simpler or there are less steps to operate it - it's that b/c the action is open, it's more intuitive for noobs. Pull bolt back, see big empty space, put magazine in big empty space, see bullets at top of mag, let bolt go, see bolt feed bullet into bbl. Similar advantage to the SKS or any other top loading bolt action. Less mud resistant, less accurate, more expensive to produce. Easy enough to build if all the parts are in spec. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:22:36 AM EDT
[#8]
ammo prices for it are dumb.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 1:48:30 AM EDT
[#9]
lol no
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:23:58 AM EDT
[#10]
A Mini-14 that shot accurately in 350 Legend would be awesome.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:45:03 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read your post correctly. The M1 Carbine holds certain advantages over the AR. It's lighter, it has a more slender profile, and its operation is more simple, and I say this as the owner of three AR's. I understand this is an AR-15 forum and therefore there's lots of love for the AR. But sometimes one has to think outside of that AR box. Except that the M1 carbine is nowhere near as reliable as an AR-15. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:48:57 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ammo prices for it are dumb. And it's an elderly caliber with shit performance. It's one thing to be a WW2 reenactor and want an M1 Carbine. It's entirely a new level of derp to want an AR15 chambered in 30 Carbine that takes M1 Carbine mags. @OP: They would sell like soggy toast, only slightly worse than a new manu SVD, though. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:52:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn't the solution as simple as you calling Fulton Armory and ordering 100,000 rifles? You negotiate a lower priced based on volume and you handle the warehouse and logistics of keeping them in stock at retail stores. They can increase production with your firm order because you have proven the demand by placing the order. Fulton isn't a gun manufacture, their a gunsmithing service that started "making" M1 Carbines in 2012 by first using USGI receivers then outsourcing new production receivers to a 3rd party. Their limited to what that party can provide and have had to stop offering carbines this year over the summer because their supplier couldn't keep up with the demand they had. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 10:55:16 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not just buy an m1 carbine? Mine's awesome. Basically this. I love mine. It’s a DCM Winchester purchased by my granddad in 1963 for $20. But the AR already does everything way better than the carbine. Buy a carbine because shooting the carbine is fun. Not for the .30 round itself. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:03:15 AM EDT
[#15]
I’d rather have an M1 carbine in 5.56.
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:09:45 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except that the M1 carbine is nowhere near as reliable as an AR-15. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I read your post correctly. The M1 Carbine holds certain advantages over the AR. It's lighter, it has a more slender profile, and its operation is more simple, and I say this as the owner of three AR's. I understand this is an AR-15 forum and therefore there's lots of love for the AR. But sometimes one has to think outside of that AR box. Except that the M1 carbine is nowhere near as reliable as an AR-15. Biggest problem with M1 Carbines is the magazine itself, they were designed to be a 1-2 use item. The M-16 had similar issues with mags IIRR and reliability issues early on also. Now a days the biggest issues with reliability and the M1 Carbine is worn parts on 75 year old guns that haven't seen service in years. Worn springs, ejectors and loose fitting slides are the 3 major things that cause issues with them. I've had 4 Carbines "tech inspected" by Fulton Armory since 2019. Before the check all ran "decent" but I could never get through a range session (100-150 rounds) without 1-2 FTF or FTE's. Since I got each back and had worn parts replaced (2 needed new slides, something I couldn't inspect or gauge myself) they've all run like sewing machines with quality ammo (I avoid Aquilia brand .30 Carbine because it's underpowered compared to other brands). Same with my 1966 Plainfield. Since I changed the springs myself it's become 95% reliable. The 5% I write off as it doesn't like 1 of the mags I use as shooting mags. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:11:33 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’d rather have an M1 carbine in 5.56. Mini-14 is 87% of what you want. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:12:27 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I saw what you did there……slick. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They should make a new 30 cartridge that works with the existing lowers and mags for the 5.56/223, they could even make loads that work in shorter length barrels, maybe even can it. That would be cool to just be able to switch uppers. I saw what you did there……slick. LMAO |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:22:37 AM EDT
[#19]
I've always wanted an AR in .303 Brit just because I have a lot of it. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:53:02 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In decades long past the M1 Carbine had 3 things going for it: 1- Cheap Surplus M1 Carbines (my dad tells stories of barrels full of them at gun stores in the 50's-60's) 2- Light handy Carbine, easy to carry 3- Cheap surplus Ammo. Now only one of these advantages remain for the M1 Carbine. When you put 30 Carbine in an AR you loose all the advantages. I thought I was getting fucked a few months back @52 CPR.  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 11:57:16 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mini-14 is 87% of what you want. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’d rather have an M1 carbine in 5.56. Mini-14 is 87% of what you want. But then I’d have to own a mini-14.  Proprietary mags kind of ruin it for me, I wish they’d make a STANAG version. |
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Posted: 12/13/2021 3:02:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Marlin Model 62 for the lever action Had to look that one up. Damn, I want one of those, although I would prefer .357 magnum. Like a ruger 96/44 |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 12:30:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn't read it correctly. Your second sentence betrays that. I did not make any comparison between the two different platforms. My comment was specifically towards the two different cartridges with both being in the AR platform. Whether I think your point is right or wrong is irrelevant; your point had nothing to do with my post. Yep, I read your post wrong! |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 12:48:33 AM EDT
[#24]
I’m not gonna lie.
I may not be interested in an M1 Carbine mag AR, But if some crazy desert Eagle type handgun came out that took M1 Carbine mags I’m in. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:04:51 AM EDT
[#25]
Forget the AR in 30 carbine.
I think a PS90 in 30 carbine would be interesting, at least when ammo was more plentiful. 30 Carbine cartridge dimensions are similar although a little bit bigger to the 5.7 and still cheaper even now. Should hold 45-50 rounds in a similar size mag.  |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:29:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Because they make an AR 15 in .300blk that uses standard AR magazines?
But just for eye candy......  |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:36:24 AM EDT
[#27]
I agree, sometimes while shooting my AR's I often stop and think "If only this used more expensive ammo, magazines, AND had less range and inferior ballistics."
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:37:10 AM EDT
[#28]
OP make sure you get the Ruger Blackhawk in 30 carbine to go with it.
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:42:23 AM EDT
[#29]
1) Using expensive magazines. Vs cheap AR mags.
2) Shooting a cartridge that was inadequate when it was introduced. But it was wartime so it was introduced. 3) Superseded by 80 years of technology. It’s a stupid idea that only appeals to boomers. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:54:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And it's an elderly caliber with shit performance. According to the old NYPD guys that used them and Gary Roberts it's actually a really good cartridge for police and home defense use. The bullets expand reliably and penetrate deeply. I just don't think it makes sense to do an organ transplant to make it work in an AR when 300 BO is better. But in a carbine? Drive on! |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:59:01 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bradders made a straight pull in .30 carb for Britain gun laws. I did one for mjohn3006. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:08:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Zero interest in an AR chambered in 30 carbine. I can't figure out why I would want that over .300blk.
That is different than having an M1 to shoot 30 carbine. I would not mind having one, but prices are stupid. Ruger Mini 14 and Mini 30 exist. Those are better comparison. M1 versus one those chambered in 300blk or 7.62x39? 
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:29:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: .30 carbine AR15 that takes M1 Carbine magazines. I think it would be a hot seller Why, when .30 carbine will fit inside the dimensions of a P90 50 round magazine? |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:53:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But .30 carbines cost stupid money these days…  Yep, and when the carbines die out so will the round. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 1:58:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Zero interest in an AR chambered in 30 carbine. I can't figure out why I would want that over .300blk. That is different than having an M1 to shoot 30 carbine. I would not mind having one, but prices are stupid. Ruger Mini 14 and Mini 30 exist. Those are better comparison. M1 versus one those chambered in 300blk or 7.62x39? https://ruger.com/products/mini14TacticalRifle/images/5864.jpg I used to shoot deer with a Mini-30. It was unreliable and inaccurate and frankly didn't kill deer all that well. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 2:06:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, and when the carbines die out so will the round. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: But .30 carbines cost stupid money these days… Yep, and when the carbines die out so will the round. Then the round should be around for decades to come. A well maintained USGI spec Carbine will last for years to come. I've 2 USGI Inlands and a Howa produced one that have seen rebuilds by Fulton Armory so their basically like new rifles. Even my NPM that saw a tech check by FA and needed minimal service will be around long after I'm dead and gone. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 2:19:54 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why, when .30 carbine will fit inside the dimensions of a P90 50 round magazine? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: .30 carbine AR15 that takes M1 Carbine magazines. I think it would be a hot seller Why, when .30 carbine will fit inside the dimensions of a P90 50 round magazine? So... it's possible to build this in .30 Carbine?:  
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Posted: 12/15/2021 2:29:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, and when the carbines die out so will the round. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: But .30 carbines cost stupid money these days… Yep, and when the carbines die out so will the round.  Over 6.1M M1 Carbines were built during WWII. Since then, we've seen post-war production carbines from Universal, Plainfield, IWI, AO, "Inland," Fulton, and others. Oh, and for 53 years, Ruger has been building and selling Blackhawks in .30 Carbine, too. Name ONE centerfire cartridge with that "died out" despite having that many guns in circulation. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 2:39:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want a Lewis Gun in .30-30. That actually might work.
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Posted: 12/15/2021 3:52:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Over 6.1M M1 Carbines were built during WWII. Since then, we've seen post-war production carbines from Universal, Plainfield, IWI, AO, "Inland," Fulton, and others. Oh, and for 53 years, Ruger has been building and selling Blackhawks in .30 Carbine, too. Name ONE centerfire cartridge with that "died out" despite having that many guns in circulation. Desperation is a stinky cologne. It's already in progress. The rifles and ammo are already more expensive than makes sense once one excludes nostalgia. Thats not going to be getting better. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 5:59:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Desperation is a stinky cologne. It's already in progress. The rifles and ammo are already more expensive than makes sense once one excludes nostalgia. Thats not going to be getting better. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Over 6.1M M1 Carbines were built during WWII. Since then, we've seen post-war production carbines from Universal, Plainfield, IWI, AO, "Inland," Fulton, and others. Oh, and for 53 years, Ruger has been building and selling Blackhawks in .30 Carbine, too. Name ONE centerfire cartridge with that "died out" despite having that many guns in circulation. Desperation is a stinky cologne. It's already in progress. The rifles and ammo are already more expensive than makes sense once one excludes nostalgia. Thats not going to be getting better. The ammo price isn’t horrible, but the price of the guns is getting stupid. One day soon the average gun owner won’t be able to afford a carbine and at that point ammo production will start winding down due to reduced demand. It’s unfortunate. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 6:38:58 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The ammo price isn’t horrible, but the price of the guns is getting stupid. One day soon the average gun owner won’t be able to afford a carbine and at that point ammo production will start winding down due to reduced demand. It’s unfortunate. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Over 6.1M M1 Carbines were built during WWII. Since then, we've seen post-war production carbines from Universal, Plainfield, IWI, AO, "Inland," Fulton, and others. Oh, and for 53 years, Ruger has been building and selling Blackhawks in .30 Carbine, too. Name ONE centerfire cartridge with that "died out" despite having that many guns in circulation. Desperation is a stinky cologne. It's already in progress. The rifles and ammo are already more expensive than makes sense once one excludes nostalgia. Thats not going to be getting better. The ammo price isn’t horrible, but the price of the guns is getting stupid. One day soon the average gun owner won’t be able to afford a carbine and at that point ammo production will start winding down due to reduced demand. It’s unfortunate. The price of USGI guns has increased due to renewed interest in them and the finite number available. Before the current Covid panic the price was reasonable for both USGI and the new production Carbines. Whenever there is a rush on ammo the price of 30 Carbine always goes up and takes longer than more common calibers to go down. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 7:41:47 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want one in the venerable .357 magnum 125 gr Remington load. No other cartridge, including the .50 BMG has the same manstopping track record. .357AR. 5.56 trimmed to .357 Maximum length, sized and loaded according to .357 Maximum load data. Even better than .357 Magnum. For an easier solution go .350 Legend. Essentially the same thing, slightly different brass. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 7:50:15 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Desperation is a stinky cologne. It's already in progress. The rifles and ammo are already more expensive than makes sense once one excludes nostalgia. Thats not going to be getting better. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Over 6.1M M1 Carbines were built during WWII. Since then, we've seen post-war production carbines from Universal, Plainfield, IWI, AO, "Inland," Fulton, and others. Oh, and for 53 years, Ruger has been building and selling Blackhawks in .30 Carbine, too. Name ONE centerfire cartridge with that "died out" despite having that many guns in circulation. Desperation is a stinky cologne. It's already in progress. The rifles and ammo are already more expensive than makes sense once one excludes nostalgia. Thats not going to be getting better. You're all over the place. What determines whether or not a given cartridge "makes sense?" You could probably cover 90%+ of all real world civilian firearms use cases with just .22lr, 9mm, 5.56, and 12ga. Throw in something like .300wm, and there's basically no gap in what you could do. And yet, there are hundreds of calibers out there, dozens of which are regularly stocked and sold. Does .45acp or .45Colt make sense? How about .243 and .270? How about 10mm and .45-70? They still make and sell ammo in .303 British and 8mm Mauser. Does that make sense? Here's the reality: outside of some massive change to our way of life, once a few million firearms in a given caliber have hit the market, that caliber is here forever. That includes .30 Carbine. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 7:50:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Desperation is a stinky cologne. It's already in progress. The rifles and ammo are already more expensive than makes sense once one excludes nostalgia. Thats not going to be getting better. I have a difficult time taking seriously anyone who complains about ammo prices. If ammo prices are a problem, then you're not a handloader, and if you're not a handloader, then it's probable that you do not shoot enough to have much of an opinion on the subject of shooting. Pre-election .30 Carbine prices were about .36 per round. Handloads run at most, .14 per round (cast handloads), .22 (commercial cast handloads) and .29 for jacketed handloads. So an M1 Carbine really isn't expensive to shoot. Regarding the prices of the carbines themselves, they sell for whatever they're worth. Midway recently imported and offered a couple thousand of them, ranging in price from $1400-$2000, and sold out in less than a day. So a few thousand people didn't think they were too expensive. Open your mind. There is life outside of AR's. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 8:02:13 PM EDT
[#46]
While we're talking about goofy gun ideas that nobody will buy, I want a bolt action rifle with the contours of a .22LR, but a centerfire in .25ACP.
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Posted: 12/15/2021 8:05:16 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're all over the place. What determines whether or not a given cartridge "makes sense?" You could probably cover 90%+ of all real world civilian firearms use cases with just .22lr, 9mm, 5.56, and 12ga. Throw in something like .300wm, and there's basically no gap in what you could do. And yet, there are hundreds of calibers out there, dozens of which are regularly stocked and sold. Does .45acp or .45Colt make sense? How about .243 and .270? How about 10mm and .45-70? They still make and sell ammo in .303 British and 8mm Mauser. Does that make sense? Here's the reality: outside of some massive change to our way of life, once a few million firearms in a given caliber have hit the market, that caliber is here forever. That includes .30 Carbine. Does that mean .45 GAP is not coming?
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Posted: 12/15/2021 8:06:22 PM EDT
[#48]
So... An underpowered 300blk?
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Posted: 12/15/2021 8:37:17 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While we're talking about goofy gun ideas that nobody will buy, I want a bolt action rifle with the contours of a .22LR, but a centerfire in .25ACP. I seem remember someone on the Cast Boolit site doing this, although it was probably a single shot. |
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Posted: 12/15/2021 8:53:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I seem remember someone on the Cast Boolit site doing this, although it was probably a single shot. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: While we're talking about goofy gun ideas that nobody will buy, I want a bolt action rifle with the contours of a .22LR, but a centerfire in .25ACP. I seem remember someone on the Cast Boolit site doing this, although it was probably a single shot. I heard of one bolt action conversion that was done too...IIRC on a Remington 581. Builder said it was a bitch and not worth the effort. But it's one of those ideas that comes back when I get bored. |
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