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Posted: 1/20/2024 8:20:22 AM EDT
And someone was shot and killed, should the shooter be charged with manslaughter?

Shooter would have had every reason to believe his actions were safe because he believed he was using a simunitions restricted firearm.

Should the student be responsible to continually make sure the pistol in his hand was using the training rounds?
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:21:51 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:23:27 AM EDT
[#2]
Alec Baldwin, is that you?!
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:24:12 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Live ammo won't work in a Simms gun.
View Quote



if i recall right the sim barrel is 8mm instead of 9mm
only used them one time
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:27:38 AM EDT
[#4]
I'm not familiar with simunitions, but I'm familiar enough with firearms to know that you're responsible for your actions with them.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:28:57 AM EDT
[#5]
Back when I was in the Marines doing infantry school MOUT training (2006) at Camp Pendleton, one of our instructors mentioned a Recon Marine (1st Recon BTL) was recently killed near there.

Not sure the exact circumstances but a magazine of real ammo somehow made it in one of his pouches mixed in with blank ammo.

From what the instructor told me, the first few rounds blew off the BFA/blank firing adapter and the next few killed another Marine.

Wasn't sure if it was true at the time or if it was just some tale to scare us.

EDIT: This is the likely event. All the dates match up. I was in Infantry school during this time.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-witnesses-testify-about-2006-fatal-training-2008feb13-story.html

And it was a 1st Marine Recon. Guess my instructors were not BS'ing. Hadn't thought about this in 15+ years and never verified it. RIP

https://www.forcerecon.com/copy-of-ssgt-jason-d-whitehouse
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:31:42 AM EDT
[#6]
I get the willies when someone points a "blue" gun at me or I have to point it at someone else. So yeah, I don't trust anything around other people.

I'd probably be a disruption in class checking the thing so many times to make sure it was still a simunition and didn't transform itself.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:31:50 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
And someone was shot and killed, should the shooter be charged with manslaughter?

Shooter would have had every reason to believe his actions were safe because he believed he was using a simunitions restricted firearm.

Should the student be responsible to continually make sure the pistol in his hand was using the training rounds?
View Quote


Yes. You verify the simunition barrel or gun, you check the ammunition as you load it. Then you buddy up and check each others guns and mags.

You do that in an area which is separate to your vehicles , weapons and gear. Anyone leaving the area gets checked when they return. It's not hard.

Very similar on set. If you're using dummy or blank ammo the armourer checks it and then watches you check it. They check the gun is empty and then watch you check it. One of you loads while the other watches. If you leave set the armourer takes possession of the gun.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:32:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Live ammo won't work in a Simms gun.
View Quote


This, however, there have been documented shootings during FoF training events. It's my observation (anecdote) that it's usually done by a person who joined in after the class had already started and wasn't searched prior to participating.

Example


ETA: Yes, they're liable.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:32:25 AM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:35:25 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Back when I was in the Marines doing infantry school MOUT training (2006) at Camp Pendleton, one of our instructors mentioned a Recon Marine (1st Recon BTL) was recently killed near there.

Not sure the exact circumstances but a magazine of real ammo somehow made in one of his pouches mixed in with blank ammo.

From what the instructor told me, the first few rounds blew off the BFA/blank firing adapter and the next few killed another Marine.

Wasn't sure if it was true at the time or if it was just some tale to scare us.

That definitely happened and he was charged.

https://www.newson6.com/story/5e3688142f69d76f6209e2e4/marine-charged-in-accidental-shooting



Yep, I looked it up after my initial post. Never actually verified it and this was the first time in a long time I even thought of it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:35:36 AM EDT
[#11]
I’ve done EMS training with LE for active shooter events.  Most of them don’t use sims, they use their duty weapons.  

Everyone of them enters at singular check point, every one of them is searched for live ammo, their guns triple checked, and flagged with caution tape run down through the ejection port.  

If they leave the area, they are immediately rechecked again upon entering.  

Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:36:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Live ammo won't work in a Simms gun.
View Quote

That's why I said "Slipped a live gun into the mix".

The simunitions I've used only required a bbl and spring changed in a real pistol.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:38:50 AM EDT
[#13]
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:41:32 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.
View Quote

If your point a gun at someone and pull the trigger you're responsible for whatever happens next. Actually, even if you don't pull the trigger (even a genuine mechanical failure is on you at that point).

That's why you verify everything for yourself (because you're responsible) and then get someone to check you (because everyone can make mistakes).
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:43:04 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Alec Baldwin, is that you?!
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Alec wouldn't stoop to posting here.  His lawyers would find someone to do it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:44:10 AM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:45:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.
View Quote



I suppose that this about the Baldwin case?  

Your hypothetical scenario ref Simms is what's causing the issue with you not getting the response that you're looking for.

The fact that blue barrel simms won't chamber a live round notwithstanding , with the facts as I know them, that Baldwin should not have been charged.  

Again, I have no idea if safety briefs were given and Baldwin ignored them, etc…If that's the case then yes, there's a degree of negligence to his actions which resulted in a death of a pretty white girl.  

So to answer your question at face value my answer would be no but more facts are needed.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:48:19 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



I suppose that this about the Baldwin case?  

Your hypothetical scenario ref Simms is what's causing the issue with you not getting the response that you're looking for.

The fact that blue barrel simms won't chamber a live round notwithstanding , with the facts as I know them, that Baldwin should not have been charged.  

Again, I have no idea if safety briefs were given and Baldwin ignored them, etc…If that's the case then yes, there's a degree of negligence to his actions which resulted in a death of a pretty white girl.  

So to answer your question at face value my answer would be no.
View Quote

I'm not looking for a particular response. Just seeing how far personal responsibility goes in peoples' opinion.

I dont give two shots about Baldwin. He is a scum bag. But I dont think he is responsible for that shooting. The armorer was.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:51:27 AM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:52:16 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.
View Quote
Yeah, lotta tap dancing. In answer to your query, the person who "slipped a live gun into the mix" would be primarily responsible, if it were inside a controlled environment, IMO.
Could it hurt to check your own gun? Of course not. Under those circumstances though, I doubt your actions would be seen as rising to the level of criminality.
Civil liability is another matter, of course.

Damn, now you've got me not wanting to ever do Simunitions.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:52:56 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I'm not looking for a particular response. Just seeing how far personal responsibility goes in peoples' opinion.

I dont give two shots about Baldwin. He is a scum bag. But I dont think he is responsible for that shooting. The armorer was.
View Quote


Didn't say you were. My point was that the example that you gave made no sense to guys that have used simms, hence the hesitation in answering.  You should have just used the Baldwin example, perhaps with the caveat that we should strip out the fact that Baldwin is scum and to answer objectively.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:53:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I'm not looking for a particular response. Just seeing how far personal responsibility goes in peoples' opinion.

I dont give two shots about Baldwin. He is a scum bag. But I dont think he is responsible for that shooting. The armorer was.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:



I suppose that this about the Baldwin case?  

Your hypothetical scenario ref Simms is what's causing the issue with you not getting the response that you're looking for.

The fact that blue barrel simms won't chamber a live round notwithstanding , with the facts as I know them, that Baldwin should not have been charged.  

Again, I have no idea if safety briefs were given and Baldwin ignored them, etc…If that's the case then yes, there's a degree of negligence to his actions which resulted in a death of a pretty white girl.  

So to answer your question at face value my answer would be no.

I'm not looking for a particular response. Just seeing how far personal responsibility goes in peoples' opinion.

I dont give two shots about Baldwin. He is a scum bag. But I dont think he is responsible for that shooting. The armorer was.


The armorer wasn’t there.

Baldwin had no reason to point the gun at anyone or pull the trigger. They weren’t filming a scene that required it. He just did it.

If someone handed you a gun and said it wasn’t loaded, would you point it at someone and pull the trigger?
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:54:04 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.
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You are responsible for every gun in your hand.


Check the Mfer, check it twice, don't take their word

Happy?

ETA. In your scenario, liability does not stop at the shooter. Multiple people are responsible in your scenario.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:56:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Live ammo won't work in a Simms gun.
View Quote
End of thread..
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 8:57:00 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

You are responsible for every gun in your hand.


Check the Mfer, check it twice, don't take their word

Happy?

ETA. In your scenario, liability does not stop at the shooter. Multiple people are responsible in your scenario.
View Quote



Are you inferring that Baldwin had been extensively briefed on firearms safety and chose to ignore it?
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:00:40 AM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.
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Depends, am I the HMFIC of the training course instead of just a student?
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:02:40 AM EDT
[#27]
Yes, no, maybe.

Depends on totality of the circumstances and the political climate of the Grand Jury.

18Z50
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:02:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:05:26 AM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:


There’s certainly some shared responsibility, but there are safety protocols in movie production that Baldwin was certainly aware of and violated.
View Quote


That's going to be the question. What were the protocols, how were they enforced and would a reasonable person assume that Baldwin, as an actor, should have understood and adhered to them?
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:07:08 AM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:
End of thread..
View Quote
It was a live gun, he should have checked it before handling it. He's fucked.
There shouldn't have been live ammunition anywhere on site. She's fucked unless they can show it was ammunition someone else must have brought on site.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:11:06 AM EDT
[#31]
Brandon Lee’s Death
On March 31, 1993, Lee was filming a scene for the film The Crow in which his character is shot and killed by thugs.[99] In the scene, Lee's character walks into his apartment and discovers his fiancée being beaten and raped, and a thug played by actor Michael Massee fires a Smith & Wesson Model 629 .44 Magnum revolver at Lee's character as he walks into the room.[100]

In a film shoot prior to the fatal scene, the gun that was used as a prop (a real revolver) was loaded with improperly made dummy rounds, improvised from live cartridges that had the powder charges removed by the special effects crew, so in close-ups the revolver would show normal-looking ammunition. However, the crew neglected to remove the primers from the cartridges, and at some point before the fatal event, one of the rounds had been fired. Although there were no powder charges, the energy from the ignited primer was enough to separate the bullet from the casing and push it part-way into the gun barrel, where it got stuck—a dangerous condition known as a squib load.

During the fatal scene, which called for the revolver to be fired at Lee from a distance of 3.6–4.5 meters (12–15 ft), the dummy cartridges were replaced with blank rounds, which contained a powder charge and the primer, but no solid bullet, allowing the gun to be fired with sound and flash effects without the risk of an actual projectile. However, the gun was not properly checked and cleared before the blank was fired, and the dummy bullet previously lodged in the barrel was then propelled forward by the blank's propellant and shot out the muzzle with almost the same force as if the round were live, striking Lee in the abdomen.[101][102]

After Massee pulled the trigger and shot Lee, Lee fell backwards instead of forwards as he was supposed to. When the director said "cut", Lee did not stand up and the crew thought he was either still acting or joking. Jeff Imada, who immediately checked Lee, noticed something wrong when he came close and noted Lee was unconscious and breathing heavily. Medic Clyde Baisey went to Lee and shook him to see if he was dazed by hitting his head during the fall, but did not think Lee had been shot since there was no visible bleeding. Baisey took Lee's pulse, which was regular, but within two to three minutes it slowed down dramatically, and stopped.[103]

Lee was rushed to the New Hanover Regional Medical Center in Wilmington, North Carolina. Attempts to save him were unsuccessful and after six hours of emergency surgery, Lee was pronounced dead on March 31, 1993, at 1:03 pm. He was 28 years old. The shooting was ruled an accident due to negligence.[104] Lee's death led to the re-emergence of conspiracy theories surrounding his father's similarly early death.[105] Lee was buried next to his father at the Lake View Cemetery in Seattle, Washington. A private funeral attended by 50 took place in Seattle on April 3. The following day, 200 of Lee's family and business associates attended a memorial service at actress Polly Bergen's house in Los Angeles. Among the attendees were Kiefer Sutherland, Lou Diamond Phillips, David Hasselhoff, Steven Seagal, David Carradine, and Melissa Etheridge.[106][107]


The graves of Bruce and Brandon Lee
In August 1993, Lee's mother, Linda Lee Cadwell, filed a lawsuit against the filmmakers alleging negligence in the death of her son. The suit was settled two months later under undisclosed terms.[101][108]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Lee#Death
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:11:40 AM EDT
[#32]
A couple of local police officers have been killed or injured by live fire from service weapons during training.

One that stands out in my mind was the idiot that shot his buddy in the head during an instruction portion.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:12:31 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:


That's going to be the question. What were the protocols, how were they enforced and would a reasonable person assume that Baldwin, as an actor, should have understood and adhered to them?
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Quoted:
Quoted:


There’s certainly some shared responsibility, but there are safety protocols in movie production that Baldwin was certainly aware of and violated.


That's going to be the question. What were the protocols, how were they enforced and would a reasonable person assume that Baldwin, as an actor, should have understood and adhered to them?


Without getting too deep into it, they violated the Hollywood protocols, Baldwin had been briefed and was experienced as an actor. He chose, both as an actor and as the executive producer, to violate these protocols.  

Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:15:00 AM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Baldwin had no reason to point the gun at anyone or pull the trigger. They weren’t filming a scene that required it. He just did it.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:



I suppose that this about the Baldwin case?  

Your hypothetical scenario ref Simms is what's causing the issue with you not getting the response that you're looking for.

The fact that blue barrel simms won't chamber a live round notwithstanding , with the facts as I know them, that Baldwin should not have been charged.  

Again, I have no idea if safety briefs were given and Baldwin ignored them, etc…If that's the case then yes, there's a degree of negligence to his actions which resulted in a death of a pretty white girl.  

So to answer your question at face value my answer would be no.

I'm not looking for a particular response. Just seeing how far personal responsibility goes in peoples' opinion.

I dont give two shots about Baldwin. He is a scum bag. But I dont think he is responsible for that shooting. The armorer was.


Baldwin had no reason to point the gun at anyone or pull the trigger. They weren’t filming a scene that required it. He just did it.

Why does filming a scene count, but rehearsal doesn't?
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:18:58 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Without getting too deep into it, they violated the Hollywood protocols, Baldwin had been briefed and was experienced as an actor. He chose, both as an actor and as the executive producer, to violate these protocols.  

View Quote

It seems like there is a lot more to this particular story.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:19:43 AM EDT
[#36]
I was present at Simulation demo, here about 8 yrs ago
Police officer w/ live round in revolver, everyone else had blue glocks w/ detergent rounds
Lady died right in front of me,  

After FDLE found out I was a local RSO, I got call for numerous depositions & trial

YEP, been there, was there, got the tee-shirt

Oh. everyone got away with NO responsibility , including the shooter. Who is now or was a law student out west
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:19:43 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yes. You verify the simunition barrel or gun, you check the ammunition as you load it. Then you buddy up and check each others guns and mags.

You do that in an area which is separate to your vehicles , weapons and gear. Anyone leaving the area gets checked when they return. It's not hard.

Very similar on set. If you're using dummy or blank ammo the armourer checks it and then watches you check it. They check the gun is empty and then watch you check it. One of you loads while the other watches. If you leave set the armourer takes possession of the gun.
View Quote
Chuckles in Alec Baldwin
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:23:17 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

You are responsible for every gun in your hand.


Check the Mfer, check it twice, don't take their word

Happy?

ETA. In your scenario, liability does not stop at the shooter. Multiple people are responsible in your scenario.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.

You are responsible for every gun in your hand.


Check the Mfer, check it twice, don't take their word

Happy?

ETA. In your scenario, liability does not stop at the shooter. Multiple people are responsible in your scenario.

Good. Let's take that and run with it.

You are responsible for every mechanical device you're in control of. It is your responsibility to verify its status and safety, even if others are also responsible for the same, in certain circumstances such as a movie set. The ultimate responsibility lies at the feet of the current user.


So, the kid working the amusement park ride exercises his duty to strap a person into the ride. He pushes the go button. Another engineer, responsible for maintenance has left a doohickey discombobulated down the track and the rider falls to their death.

Should the kid be held responsible? Or, should they have been allowed to assume the engineer did their job and made the rest of the ride safe.

For those who struggle with ad infinitum discussion, the example doesn't necessarily need to be realistic. The purpose is to find the ultimate line of demarcation.

Similar to abortion discussion where we push the person to eventually admit, at some point killing the baby is wrong. Then it is a matter of when.

Or, asking a woman if she would have sex for 1 million dollars and then offering her 20 bucks. You established that she would fuck for money,  it becomes a matter of how much.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:24:46 AM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:


The armorer wasn’t there.

Baldwin had no reason to point the gun at anyone or pull the trigger. They weren’t filming a scene that required it. He just did it.

If someone handed you a gun and said it wasn’t loaded, would you point it at someone and pull the trigger?
View Quote


Christ, fucking finally. Thanks for that.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:25:36 AM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:
Chuckles in Alec Baldwin
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Quoted:
Quoted:


Yes. You verify the simunition barrel or gun, you check the ammunition as you load it. Then you buddy up and check each others guns and mags.

You do that in an area which is separate to your vehicles , weapons and gear. Anyone leaving the area gets checked when they return. It's not hard.

Very similar on set. If you're using dummy or blank ammo the armourer checks it and then watches you check it. They check the gun is empty and then watch you check it. One of you loads while the other watches. If you leave set the armourer takes possession of the gun.
Chuckles in Alec Baldwin

Alec fucked up in so many more ways.

As producer he's responsible for on-set safety
He hired the shit armourer
He refused to attend his safety training
He allowed filming with firearms to continue with no armourer on-set
He took a gun from someone that wasn't the armourer with neither of them checking it
Then he pointed it at a crew (not cast) member that he had no reason to point it at and pulled the trigger  

How there was ever any question of bringing charges I have no idea. He literally did everything wrong by the standards that he was responsible for ensuring were followed.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:25:50 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That's going to be the question. What were the protocols, how were they enforced and would a reasonable person assume that Baldwin, as an actor, should have understood and adhered to them?
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Quoted:
Quoted:


There’s certainly some shared responsibility, but there are safety protocols in movie production that Baldwin was certainly aware of and violated.


That's going to be the question. What were the protocols, how were they enforced and would a reasonable person assume that Baldwin, as an actor, should have understood and adhered to them?

I'm still flabbergasted that there are real guns on any movie set. Completely absurd. Surprised this hasn't happened sooner. Real guns around a bunch of idiots who know nothing about them. Brilliant.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:29:35 AM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:
So, the kid working the amusement park ride exercises his duty to strap a person into the ride. He pushes the go button. Another engineer, responsible for maintenance has left a doohickey discombobulated down the track and the rider falls to their death.

Should the kid be held responsible? Or, should they have been allowed to assume the engineer did their job and made the rest of the ride safe.
.
View Quote

The kid isn't responsible for checking the dohickey and isn't even allowed to check it. He checked everything that's within his direct responsibility.

If I'm running sim training and I tell people they aren't permitted to check the guns and ammunition then I've just taken that responsibility off them. If I tell them they don't need to check then I've done the same but left open a window for them to be self-sufficiently responsible.

That's not how sim training or movie sets work and for good reason.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:29:50 AM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:


There's certainly some shared responsibility, but there are safety protocols in movie production that Baldwin was certainly aware of and violated.
View Quote


There was a police shooting where the cop accidential killed someone.   There is a video out there that I saw where Baldwin was going off on cop the because of what happened. In the video Baldwin states that he has been around firearms his whole career and knows how to safely handle them and that the cop should have as well.  Video was from before he killed somone.   That video needs to be shown to the jury if there ends up being one.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:31:28 AM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Alec fucked up in so many more ways.

As producer he's responsible for on-set safety
He hired the shit armourer
He refused to attend his safety training
He allowed filming with firearms to continue with no armourer on-set
He took a gun from someone that wasn't the armourer with neither of them checking it
Then he pointed it at a crew (not cast) member that he had no reason to point it at and pulled the trigger  

How there was ever any question of bringing charges I have no idea. He literally did everything wrong by the standards that he was responsible for ensuring were followed.
View Quote

That stacks up a lot more responsibility, even if not every point is true
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:38:18 AM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:

That stacks up a lot more responsibility, even if not every point is true
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Alec fucked up in so many more ways.

As producer he's responsible for on-set safety
He hired the shit armourer
He refused to attend his safety training
He allowed filming with firearms to continue with no armourer on-set
He took a gun from someone that wasn't the armourer with neither of them checking it
Then he pointed it at a crew (not cast) member that he had no reason to point it at and pulled the trigger  

How there was ever any question of bringing charges I have no idea. He literally did everything wrong by the standards that he was responsible for ensuring were followed.

That stacks up a lot more responsibility, even if not every point is true

Take away every one except the last one. He didn't need to point the gun at someone for a scene - he pointed it at someone just because and pulled the trigger. That was a needless act that he knew carried an amount of risk however small he felt it was.

Launching a coaster is necessary, it's the whole point of it being there so the operator, who cannot possibly check everything, checks everything they can, everything protocol says they should and then launches.

If he'd shot a cast member during a scene where the camera angle required him to point it at the guy, that would change the situation substantially. He would still carry responsibility for not inspectig the firearm and everything else but it would be different. That was hot the case, he was goofing off doing something that he knew full well was unsafe.

His culpability as producer is crystal clear regardless of this. He pissed on well established protocols.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:38:31 AM EDT
[#46]
The guns used in Simunition training ARE real guns with the barrel replaced

and it's VERY obvious. Yes, I have trained with Simunitions.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:38:37 AM EDT
[#47]
He is responsible as you would be in that situation.  Now what the punishment should be is another story.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:38:52 AM EDT
[#48]
The Rust set was beyond fucked. His wasn't the first fuck up on set....Armorer has a lawsuit saying she wasn't allowed in the church, didn't have monitors setup, wasn't told this was going to be a rehearsal practice draw, and said baldwin ignored her for a training session

Three crew members who were present at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set on Saturday said they were particularly concerned about two accidental prop gun discharges.

Baldwin’s stunt double accidentally fired two rounds Saturday after being told that the gun was “cold” — lingo for a weapon that doesn’t have any ammunition, including blanks — two crew members who witnessed the episode told the Los Angeles Times.

“There should have been an investigation into what happened,” a crew member said. “There were no safety meetings. There was no assurance that it wouldn’t happen again. All they wanted to do was rush, rush, rush.”

A colleague was so alarmed by the prop gun misfires that he sent a text message to the unit production manager. “We’ve now had 3 accidental discharges. This is super unsafe,” according to a copy of the message reviewed by The Times.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:39:26 AM EDT
[#49]
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Quoted:

Good. Let's take that and run with it.

You are responsible for every mechanical device you're in control of. It is your responsibility to verify its status and safety, even if others are also responsible for the same, in certain circumstances such as a movie set. The ultimate responsibility lies at the feet of the current user.


So, the kid working the amusement park ride exercises his duty to strap a person into the ride. He pushes the go button. Another engineer, responsible for maintenance has left a doohickey discombobulated down the track and the rider falls to their death.

Should the kid be held responsible? Or, should they have been allowed to assume the engineer did their job and made the rest of the ride safe.

For those who struggle with ad infinitum discussion, the example doesn't necessarily need to be realistic. The purpose is to find the ultimate line of demarcation.

Similar to abortion discussion where we push the person to eventually admit, at some point killing the baby is wrong. Then it is a matter of when.

Or, asking a woman if she would have sex for 1 million dollars and then offering her 20 bucks. You established that she would fuck for money,  it becomes a matter of how much.
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Quoted:
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.

You are responsible for every gun in your hand.


Check the Mfer, check it twice, don't take their word

Happy?

ETA. In your scenario, liability does not stop at the shooter. Multiple people are responsible in your scenario.

Good. Let's take that and run with it.

You are responsible for every mechanical device you're in control of. It is your responsibility to verify its status and safety, even if others are also responsible for the same, in certain circumstances such as a movie set. The ultimate responsibility lies at the feet of the current user.


So, the kid working the amusement park ride exercises his duty to strap a person into the ride. He pushes the go button. Another engineer, responsible for maintenance has left a doohickey discombobulated down the track and the rider falls to their death.

Should the kid be held responsible? Or, should they have been allowed to assume the engineer did their job and made the rest of the ride safe.

For those who struggle with ad infinitum discussion, the example doesn't necessarily need to be realistic. The purpose is to find the ultimate line of demarcation.

Similar to abortion discussion where we push the person to eventually admit, at some point killing the baby is wrong. Then it is a matter of when.

Or, asking a woman if she would have sex for 1 million dollars and then offering her 20 bucks. You established that she would fuck for money,  it becomes a matter of how much.

GD seems to be having a hard time wrapping their head around why Baldwin was actually charged.  He's being charged, not in his capacity as an actor, but because of his role as producer.  

To relate it to your theme park analogy, if the owner of the park, or the engineer, knows of a serious safety issue that could get someone killed, but does nothing to address it and continues to allow riders on the ride, then one or both would be culpable in the death due to negligence.
Link Posted: 1/20/2024 9:49:27 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

GD seems to be having a hard time wrapping their head around why Baldwin was actually charged.  He's being charged, not in his capacity as an actor, but because of his role as producer.  

To relate it to your theme park analogy, if the owner of the park, or the engineer, knows of a serious safety issue that could get someone killed, but does nothing to address it and continues to allow riders on the ride, then one or both would be culpable in the death due to negligence.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Seems that most are avoiding the question by trying to say or list all the ways it couldn't happen.

You are responsible for every gun in your hand.


Check the Mfer, check it twice, don't take their word

Happy?

ETA. In your scenario, liability does not stop at the shooter. Multiple people are responsible in your scenario.

Good. Let's take that and run with it.

You are responsible for every mechanical device you're in control of. It is your responsibility to verify its status and safety, even if others are also responsible for the same, in certain circumstances such as a movie set. The ultimate responsibility lies at the feet of the current user.


So, the kid working the amusement park ride exercises his duty to strap a person into the ride. He pushes the go button. Another engineer, responsible for maintenance has left a doohickey discombobulated down the track and the rider falls to their death.

Should the kid be held responsible? Or, should they have been allowed to assume the engineer did their job and made the rest of the ride safe.

For those who struggle with ad infinitum discussion, the example doesn't necessarily need to be realistic. The purpose is to find the ultimate line of demarcation.

Similar to abortion discussion where we push the person to eventually admit, at some point killing the baby is wrong. Then it is a matter of when.

Or, asking a woman if she would have sex for 1 million dollars and then offering her 20 bucks. You established that she would fuck for money,  it becomes a matter of how much.

GD seems to be having a hard time wrapping their head around why Baldwin was actually charged.  He's being charged, not in his capacity as an actor, but because of his role as producer.  

To relate it to your theme park analogy, if the owner of the park, or the engineer, knows of a serious safety issue that could get someone killed, but does nothing to address it and continues to allow riders on the ride, then one or both would be culpable in the death due to negligence.

Very good points.
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