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Posted: 3/26/2021 7:49:56 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I have to choose between your assessment and that of General was de Czege, well... That's how I feel about you when it is anything related to police work. 
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Posted: 3/26/2021 7:55:00 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seeing it in Red Dawn gave me chills then, terrifying if on the ground.  Charlie Wilson''s war - Red Army storms Afghanistan -.wmv |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 8:01:18 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There won't be a NATO in WW3 Chinas Belt and Road project will pull Europe closer to then than the US. They are getting many natural resources from Russia. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 8:19:57 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The report found that HMGs were the biggest killers of Soviet helicopters, far more than anything else. MANPADS as a rule force aircraft down to the optimum AAA engagement altitudes. Optically or laser tracking AAA is nasty precisely because of a lack of engagement warning. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 8:22:27 AM EST
[#5]
I’d be much more afraid of not seeing the Apache that put a hellfire though my living room window.
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Posted: 3/26/2021 8:22:45 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Chinas Belt and Road project will pull Europe closer to then than the US. They are getting many natural resources from Russia. The Chinese have very possibly overplayed their hand with BRI/OBOR. I think we will see the vast majority of projects going forward have either massive Chinese sourced bribery or no Western investment interest (mostly due to a lack of business case for the project.) |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 8:39:10 AM EST
[#7]
 vs  vs  Red dawn did the best job turning a puma into a mi24a.  The Sikorsky from red scorpion is no bueno. 
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:01:32 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MANPADS as a rule force aircraft down to the optimum AAA engagement altitudes. Optically or laser tracking AAA is nasty precisely because of a lack of engagement warning. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The report found that HMGs were the biggest killers of Soviet helicopters, far more than anything else. MANPADS as a rule force aircraft down to the optimum AAA engagement altitudes. Optically or laser tracking AAA is nasty precisely because of a lack of engagement warning. It should go without saying that HMGs were many,many more times prevalent than MANPADS hence way more opportunities to shoot things down. ETA: we start training them how to deal with Russian helicopters when they’re young  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:04:55 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It should go without saying that HMGs were many,many more times prevalent than MANPADS hence way more opportunities to shoot things down. One time I got to listen to a really smart ADA guy turned CA guy talk about ADA tactics. He also had the quotable quote "Any friend trying to get you into CA isn't your friend." |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:09:17 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do people feel compelled to put a shitty music track to military equipment and firearms videos? I have no idea what a Hind sounds like from this vid. I prefer to hear turbines and rotor noise. Hinds are loud as shit and smokey, lol..., |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:25:18 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’d be much more afraid of not seeing the Apache that put a hellfire though my living room window. When I was in Bosnia back in ‘04, the NG Apache jocks would mess with us in the OP towers. They got our radio frequencies (or just “borrowed” one of our radios) and would weave through the weeds to sneak up on us, and proceed to talk to shit to us. It’s terrifying how close a big, noisy helicopter can get to you before you see or hear it. Way, way closer than it needs to be to ruin your day. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:29:34 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MANPADS as a rule force aircraft down to the optimum AAA engagement altitudes. Optically or laser tracking AAA is nasty precisely because of a lack of engagement warning. Yup... |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:32:40 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There have been a lot of possible scenarios where nukes wouldn't be immediately deployed. Sorry, literally no known soviet era war plans exist that don't call for a immediate start to war with a nuclear bombardment. And there are a bunch of them known. Some sort of conventional war slowly escalating to nukes was always a NATO fantasy. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:34:08 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, literally no known soviet era war plans exist that don't call for a immediate start to war with a nuclear bombardment. And there are a bunch of them known. Even if the “Fulda Gap War” stayed conventional, helicopters weren’t getting anywhere near it. Not for long anyway. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:42:07 AM EST
[#15]
Long in the tooth, but still going strong for a half-century old design.
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Posted: 3/26/2021 10:54:04 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There have been a lot of possible scenarios where nukes wouldn't be immediately deployed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pretty much.... between being slimed or irradiated within the first few minutes, nothing was going to fly anywhere, anytime anyways. No, not really. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:06:37 AM EST
[#17]
The primary use of the Hind’s troop compartment was to carry an additional load of ATGMs. The crew could land and then rapidly self-rearm, often assisted by a crew chief who served as a door gunner and a tail lookout for manpad launches.
The other thing it was very useful for in AFG was downed crew rescues. The Hind could slip in immediately and pickup the crew of downed chopper, and they would ride in style instead of having to sit on the ammo doors like an Apache... |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:09:34 AM EST
[#18]
Needs more Airwolf
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:11:28 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, literally no known soviet era war plans exist that don't call for a immediate start to war with a nuclear bombardment. And there are a bunch of them known. Really? Even Seven Days to the Rhine wasn't really a plan, per se, but rather a simulation to discuss a likely family of plans. If you've got a good source, even in Russian, of a family of Soviet war plans, can you please post a link? |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:16:23 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if the “Fulda Gap War” stayed conventional, helicopters weren’t getting anywhere near it. Not for long anyway. Why? There would be helo/arty raids, insertions, screens, turns, scouting, etc. that helos would have been useful and survivable during. Look at the Iran/Iraq war. Attrition? Sure. Its MCO. There is going to be attrition, from your container ship getting hit by an Exocet to helo dogfights as ground units screen/scout advances. You could make the argument that helos would survive longer than TACAIR, esp. USAF TACAIR. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:19:22 AM EST
[#21]
Meh. I knocked them out of the sky fairly easily with a LAW in the original Operation Flashpoint.
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:21:00 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, not really. Non-concur. The very likely scenario from Soviet side was a replay of Hungary 1954 or Poland prior to Jaruzelski taking over in the early 1980s. These would have been non-nuclear, and depending, could have had limited to significant NATO involvement. Plans, at the strategic level, are a list of things that don't happen. They are designed, as much as a roadmap as a requirements/packing list and a general scheme of maneuver, and this is in keeping with both Soviet doctrine (which actually enshrined some mission command, for lack of a better term at tactical echelons) and US/NATO doctrine. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:21:07 AM EST
[#23]
Well, since I was in ADA, if they want to get that close, the vulcan, and stinger, crews would have some fun.
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:27:26 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, not really. Yup, the biggest "benefit" of nukes goes to the guy that uses them first. So following that logic, its all down to a first strike scenario. I mean why would you wait to get nuked if you know its coming? |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:28:43 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The primary use of the Hind’s troop compartment was to carry an additional load of ATGMs. The crew could land and then rapidly self-rearm, often assisted by a crew chief who served as a door gunner and a tail lookout for manpad launches. The other thing it was very useful for in AFG was downed crew rescues. The Hind could slip in immediately and pickup the crew of downed chopper, and they would ride in style instead of having to sit on the ammo doors like an Apache... Wasn't really done alot IRL. Especially in AFG, hot-high and hinds were already using rolling takeoffs. Plus one dude reloading missiles isn't really efficient. It "could" be done, but really wasn't. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:28:44 AM EST
[#26]
Those things just look angry.
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:28:50 AM EST
[#27]
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:29:00 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really? Even Seven Days to the Rhine wasn't really a plan, per se, but rather a simulation to discuss a likely family of plans. If you've got a good source, even in Russian, of a family of Soviet war plans, can you please post a link? No link, actual, dead tree paper books. Not in English either. But pretty much post 1950's there are lots of detailed lists of how much canned sunshine each airbase/kasserne etc gets. Having read them, they are IMO grossly overoptimistic, but that is what it is I guess. I sent you a link, good luck finding it. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:32:09 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pro tip: if you shoot from that position, but at a slightly higher angle, the backblast will blow that little stub door behind the cab clean off the hinges. I'd ask you how you'd know , but it would probably only dredge up difficult memories.
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:32:23 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Question for those in the know. While the Hind looks badass, just how great of an helo was it? And what did it do better than Apaches, if anything? Genuinely curious. it looks cooler and that's about it. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:34:11 AM EST
[#31]
manpads for the win
go to 1:28  Ukrainian Mi 24 shot down, 20 august 2014 HD |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:40:59 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, not really. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 11:42:05 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that nick cage in the helo? not to worry he's right handed but left eye dominant |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 12:10:43 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So Soviet tanks squeezing through the Folda Gap or however its pronounced was a fantasy? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, not really. They were going to use tactical nukes to clear the gap BEFORE pushing their tanks through. NATO viewed nukes as a last resort, to use only if they were pushed back too far and cornered. WAPA viewed nukes as just another arrow in the quiver and were planning to use them immediately on the battlefield. The invasion plan for Denmark involves 7-9 tactical nukes ahead of the amphibious landing of armored divisions. And that was against Denmark! You think they considered the US less of a threat than the pathetic Danes? They had NO INTENTION of going up against US armor in Germany without nuking it first.
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Posted: 3/26/2021 12:28:07 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They were going to use tactical nukes to clear the gap BEFORE pushing their tanks through. NATO viewed nukes as a last resort, to use only if they were pushed back too far and cornered. WAPA viewed nukes as just another arrow in the quiver and were planning to use them immediately on the battlefield. The invasion plan for Denmark involves 7-9 tactical nukes ahead of the amphibious landing of armored divisions. And that was against Denmark! You think they considered the US less of a threat than the pathetic Danes? They had NO INTENTION of going up against US armor in Germany without nuking it first.Precisely. Also WP strategy planned decapacitation strikes against NATO leadership to coincide with nuke use so as to delay nuclear weapons release on the NATO side. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 12:39:18 PM EST
[#36]
The enthusiasm level of Poles sent to invade Denmark would have been interesting.
The Soviets absolutely expected a contaminated battlefield,again this is why they thought they could slime their way in and have guys in BMPs hose down the survivors. Now the question of it being possible to have a conventional war? I think very much yes,depending upon relative strength of NATO and when and where certain events took place. I think there could have been a limited war if the Soviets grabbed Austria or Yugoslavia in the 1950s. In the 70s and 80s I think it would have gone nuclear...when the French launched Plutons,because fuck Germany anyway. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 12:48:40 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The enthusiasm level of Poles sent to invade Denmark would have been interesting. The Soviets absolutely expected a contaminated battlefield,again this is why they thought they could slime their way in and have guys in BMPs hose down the survivors. Now the question of it being possible to have a conventional war? I think very much yes,depending upon relative strength of NATO and when and where certain events took place. I think there could have been a limited war if the Soviets grabbed Austria or Yugoslavia in the 1950s. In the 70s and 80s I think it would have gone nuclear...when the French launched Plutons,because fuck Germany anyway. The only conventional plans I've seen were from the early 50's before the widespread nuclearization of the battlefield. I.e. before tac nukes. The moment tac nukes were available they were on the plans. And to be fair, I 100% think it would have been strategic nuclear at that point (bombers away), but that was beyond the scope of the plans I've seen. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 12:51:27 PM EST
[#38]
Also. Back to the original topic....
Soon you too can fly a hind for 79.99 (or whatever they charge)  DCS Mi-24P HIND |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 12:56:28 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've seen one sneak up on an airport and you can't hear it until your are in engagement range. Scary. Only ever saw a Hind in flight once...it's a beast for sure, but as others have said...jack of all trades, master of none. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 1:00:06 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup, the biggest "benefit" of nukes goes to the guy that uses them first. So following that logic, its all down to a first strike scenario. I mean why would you wait to get nuked if you know its coming? Yes and no. Escalation control was a serious question then and now. The Soviets certainly worried about it, since our sub-strategic weapons like Pershing III and GLCM could range their strategic equities. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 1:05:23 PM EST
[#41]
During training at 29 stumps there was OPFOR hind. It was coming fast and low. sound was minimal on the approach. If this thing has you in its crosshairs your not going have a whole lot of time to react.
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Posted: 3/26/2021 1:09:36 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes and no. Escalation control was a serious question then and now. The Soviets certainly worried about it, since our sub-strategic weapons like Pershing III and GLCM could range their strategic equities. Guess what was at the top of those nuke first lists? I mean you're not wrong, everyone worried about, and largely thats why it never happened, because the end game was most likely a radioactive planet. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 1:10:21 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: During training at 29 stumps there was OPFOR hind. It was coming fast and low. sound was minimal on the approach. If this thing has you in its crosshairs your not going have a whole lot of time to react. Yup, thats mainly how they were to be used and en-masse. Not alot of subtlety in warpac air assault tactics, at least on the when the shooting actually starts end of em. They weren't gonna be used picemeal to hunt abrams... |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 1:18:45 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Guess what was at the top of those nuke first lists? I mean you're not wrong, everyone worried about, and largely thats why it never happened, because the end game was most likely a radioactive planet. The problem is that Soviets weren't going to go from peacetime to flinging nukes in 15 minutes. There would have likely been a road to war that would have taken BOTH sides by surprise, as if it was a risk and predictable, it was controlled. Even in the reminiscences of ABLE ARCHER 83, there are references to insuring that the majority of our leadership remained visible and in peacetime mode to the Soviets, precisely because the Soviets attack out of exercise, and expected us to do the same. So, even our exercises were likely scripted to ensure a level of escalation control visible to the other side. The Soviets perhaps COULD have attacked without WAPO support, but even that would have taken the Soviet bureaucracy at least days to put into motion, as the Soviets themselves were good at things like ammo control, special weapons safeguarding, etc. The idea they could have uncoiled into the attack with no notice is somewhat far fetched, especially as they were so scripted and predictable in peacetime. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 1:23:11 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The problem is that Soviets weren't going to go from peacetime to flinging nukes in 15 minutes. There would have likely been a road to war that would have taken BOTH sides by surprise, as if it was a risk and predictable, it was controlled. Even in the reminiscences of ABLE ARCHER 83, there are references to insuring that the majority of our leadership remained visible and in peacetime mode to the Soviets, precisely because the Soviets attack out of exercise, and expected us to do the same. So, even our exercises were likely scripted to ensure a level of escalation control visible to the other side. The Soviets perhaps COULD have attacked without WAPO support, but even that would have taken the Soviet bureaucracy at least days to put into motion, as the Soviets themselves were good at things like ammo control, special weapons safeguarding, etc. The idea they could have uncoiled into the attack with no notice is somewhat far fetched, especially as they were so scripted and predictable in peacetime. Oh I totally agree. The idea that they could have actually pulled off a sneak attack is very different than the idea that they planned to do just that. And Able Archer showed exactly how "miss signaling" was a major problem, likely from both sides. I think the standard worry in those was that the Soviets would attack under the guise of something being an exercise. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 9:43:29 PM EST
[#46]
I got "killed" at JRTC by the OPFOR hind.
Which is to say I know how one looks like, head on, 100 feet AGL and maybe 200 yards away, before it pulls up and flies over you. It's impressive. Like a mouse looking up at a hawk. Rode in one once in Europe. Its a neat concept. A gunship that can drop off a couple grunts. IIRC the USMC played around with it patrolling by some rivers in Iraq. Use the latest huey model gunships with a couple dismounts to patrol. |
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Posted: 3/26/2021 9:58:24 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Planner thought WWIII would be like WWII with NBC. Just like planners thought that WWI would be over by Christmas. WWIII was going Chemical by Ivan as a first strike and that would have meant a Nuclear response by NATO. No ifs, ands, or buts. The ideas of a non-nuclear WWIII is laughable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The Russians planned on fighting on a contaminated battlefield,it's why the BMP was invented and ubiquitous. The Hind,just like armored vehicles,has an over pressure system. There is an NBC reconnaissance version even,which is why there are Hinds seemingly out of place in Chernobyl vehicle graveyards. They used other platforms as well but the Hind was a faster much more survivable way to go sniffing. There would have been helicopters everywhere in WW3. "F-15s would have just shot them all down" is simply unrealistic,fighters would have been way too busy doing other things than to be down in the weeds looking for helicopters. This is why the Germans specifically dual tasked their Alpha Jet trainers for anti-helicopter fighting if war broke out. Conversely the US wouldn't have spent so much time and money developing the Apache if it thought it would have been useless on a Cold War battlefield. Biologicals say hi |
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Posted: 3/27/2021 10:35:18 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IIRC the USMC played around with it patrolling by some rivers in Iraq. Use the latest huey model gunships with a couple dismounts to patrol. Blackhawks can cover a similar role, although I've never seen anything on the ESSS other than fuel tanks. 
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Posted: 3/28/2021 9:32:37 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MANPADS as a rule force aircraft down to the optimum AAA engagement altitudes. Optically or laser tracking AAA is nasty precisely because of a lack of engagement warning. This is why knowledge and data are two different things. People mistake data for knowledge all the time. This is the perfect example. 1. Manpads shoot down aircraft with surprising effectiveness. 2. Aircraft lower altitudes to prevent getting Manpadded. 3. Aircraft get shot down by AAA. Data says AAA main cause of aircraft loses. Knowledge says, the Manpads did this. |
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Posted: 3/29/2021 10:00:52 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Blackhawks can cover a similar role, although I've never seen anything on the ESSS other than fuel tanks. https://s3.amazonaws.com/marquee-test-akiaisur2rgicbmpehea/SKiG9qeGRmqT4ckbgmqy_Armed_air-to-air_1765B_cmyk.jpg The basic inspiration for the hind were actually the gunship versions of the UH1 so that's not really far off. Of course the russians realized that hey, armor is nice too. |
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