When did you leg out?

Some folks would take exception to that but you're actually pretty accurate.  The problem is the definition of beginner.

Most folks think beginner means someone who's never fired a gun when in this context it really means someone who's never gone out to 500 yards using unsupported field positions.

Nobody's accusing you of incompetence.  If you think Appleseed is beneath your skill level then that's fine and dandy.  I scored Rifleman on the first day of the first Appleseed I attended.  I like what they're doing to spread the gospel of riflery and became a shoot boss even though I didn't "need" Appleseed to teach me how to score Rifleman.  If a person is of capable skill and has the right attitude to be a good teacher they'll be welcomed into the instructor corps.

It's not beneath most people's ability level.  It actually is a harder accuracy standard than most are accustomed to as evidenced by the vast numbers of "experienced shooters" (their own description) who fail to score Rifleman.  

I'd expect most Service rifle shooters to score Rifleman as soon as they show up if they have any experience in competition at all let alone High Master shooters.  That covers .0001% of the population.  The rest of the population can probably get something from it.

I never hear anyone talk about it but the tine constraint is something that probably messes with peoples performance.

Just like in matches- it adds a stress level that can take focus off fundamentals. Especially for people that aren't used to it. And adding mag changed on clock with a ruger 10/22 that is a little cumbersome to load can add to it if that person isn't used to it.

So for training and testing fundamentals -if that is the goal-  it seems unnecessary..

Of course the time constraint messes with people's performance.  It's an important part of the test.  Without the time constraint folks don't feel any pressure so aren't forced to perform under that perceived pressure.  The whole idea of a time limit is to get folks out of their comfort zone.

There now you guys can shut the heck up about "the patch".

Pouring rain - first (only) aqt of the day

Good on ya.

I got mine first day. Helped others for a bit and then left early and didn't go back the second day. I agree that Appleseed isn't for every level but who doesn't like earning easy bling.

1st 13 rounds of the day .

Way to go!

This one pissed me off.

I had a bad jam on last target of stage 3. Got it cleared and ready to shoot right as they called cease fire.

Avg score 229

Scores:
234
229
237
212
229
233 (liberty seed- with 1 full minute left)

Man, your target looks almost identical to mine from several years ago, including the placement of the round on the 250 yd shot.  Main difference, on the 200 yd target, I had a bad round (KA 73 '06), instructor noted large puff of white smoke from rifle, round impacted below target, almost on dotted line.  1903A3 Springfield with pitted barrel.  Got home that evening (was on 2nd day), counted over 250 pcs of '06 brass (that was just Sun's shoot).  I was tuckered out, to say the least.


Got my patch first day, scoped M1A, using 1907 sling.

Funny thing, the instructor posting about the "operators" scoring badly, the first day we had a "FBI sniper instructor" on the line, he knew everything, did everything, and he was going to show us all how it's done.  He was 3 positions down from me.  After about 2-3 sets of targets, he kept looking at mine (M1A), went back to the line, packed his trash, rolled up his mat, and left without saying a word.  After he left, the instructors had a good laugh.  This guy kept arguing about IL law, too, during classroom instr.  The one that sticks out, is that IL had what we called "fanny pack" carry.  According to the State Police, and was published in a pamphlet that was distributed to the public, which they had copies of there at the range, stated a firearm could be "carried in a case, unloaded, with the ammunition/magazine in the same case but not loaded", or words to that effect.  The FBI guy argued and argued that that wasn't meant for carry, just transportation in a vehicle.  The word "vehicle" wasn't in the definition.

And, for my $.02, the appleseed is a great program, providing marksmanship instruction to beginners, and brush-ups for more experienced shooters.  Yes, the use of the sling is taught, but if you show up with a bipod, you are allowed to use it (at least the one I went to with a 24" scoped AR).  That was a nasty day, chilly (40's), intermittent drizzle, (this was pre-cold patch days).  Dropped 2 points in the offhand, elbow slipped a bit holding that front-heavy beast, but fired perfect score for the rest of the target.  (This was at John Ross's "pit" range, from his book.  Yes, got to meet him.)  Those saying it's a "shitty program" need to start up their own nationwide program, touting their own training regimen.  And have all volunteers, to keep the price down to Appleseed levels, too.  I'd attend. 

@JAD762
@Spiffums

@Madcap72

@raf

Good job, Patchouli.

Gonna take a hat and help bail?  You've obviously got the skills.  The ship is sinking.

Hadn't really thought about it...
My boy is 2 years old right now and I serve on the board for my local professional orgs. So time is not real abundant right now.  I was only able to go to this one because the wife and kid were on a trip across the country to see family.

What do you mean, the ship is sinking?

But it was my experience when my ex-GF went through the rifleman boot camp and was working on the ITT thing.  The people running did not like dots.  They did not lie scopes (the only reason she got by with using the scope is she was shooting a 10-22T with no irons.  Otherwise, you showed up with a scope or a red dot and a couple of the instructors would try to talk you into taking the scope off.  And they were some what insistent.).  These particular instructors were less enthusiastic about bi-pods.  Finally, none of the instructors I dealt with the two saturdays I went (I work sundays so I was only ever able to do saturdays) had experience with black rifles so they sometimes gave less than awesome advice for those with pistol grips.

All in all in it is good BRM training.  The program may have changed in the 6 or 7 years since my experience. It is also very dependent on the head instructor for that shoot and what instructors are there.  I know some thought scopes and dots were ok and used them on some of their personal rifles but the head guy at the ones I attended was an old school hi-power shooter and was very anti-scope.

JMHE YMMV

Appleseed has changed a lot in the last 6-7 years.  We encourage shooters to "run what you brung."  Irons, scopes, red dots, whatever.  There's never any disparagement of shooters' equipment at any of my events, and it's policy nationwide), whether it's a tactical AR (vertical foregrip, light, 3-point sling - just had one this past weekend on my line), bolt gun, tube-fed antique or anything else.  I also had someone this past weekend shoot a 209 with a scoped bolt-gun (210 is the Rifleman score).

We do not allow the use of bi-pods, or any other type of rests.  We teach proper sling use as the only method to support the rifle.  Heck, when Ayoob attended his first Appleseed, he shot a Rifleman score on his second AQT, but the Shoot Boss disqualified it because he was using his extended mag as a monopod.    He, of course, shot a Rifleman score on his next AQT.  He is a big supporter/proponent of Appleseed.  Click here to read the full article

Most of our instructors are "gun guys" with a wide range of experience.  Some of our instructors are "gun geeks" that know a heck of a lot.  And just like any other organization, some are not at all "gun people."  They volunteer because they want to contribute and help our cause - which is turning America back into a nation of Riflemen (and Riflewomen) and reconnecting folks with the history and heritage we all share as Americans.  

Sure, there's variation among our cadre from state to state, but we do try to keep the basic structure the same - safety rules, points of instruction, etc.

Appleseed teaches no magic skills.  We teach solid foundational skills for rifle marksmanship.  Less-experienced shooters will learn a lot, and experienced shooters will also learn a few new things.  Of course there are folks whose skillset in shooting is above what we teach, but seeing as how the vast majority of firearms owners never go to any classes, that same vast majority of firearms owners will greatly benefit from what we teach at Appleseed.  

But seeing as how we've this year established a formal partnership with the USMC Scout Sniper Association, one would have to conclude that there's at least some recognition that it's a worthwhile program.

I'm no expert for sure- I started this thread just to hear the discussion - but I think that part of the rifleman patch  (scoring well on the aqt) is just getting good at "gaming" the aqt.

Like where am I gonna put mags- which number of shots go where and how fast- how can I have my stuffed prepped for the stages.


Once you get comfy with all that- you can score well with fundamentals.

We did do a fun drill that added a cool level of "pressure" to make the shot.

They handed out little peppermint red and white after dinner candies in cellophane wrappers.  We taped them to a target. Then we had to prep a 5 round mag. We had to shoot all the stars on the target- but only  after the peppermint was shot first.
They said the mint was a British officer and the stars were normal soldiers. (For those who said it wasn't "martial" training)

I really focused hard on breath and trigger and nailed the mint and then quickly hit the remaining targets.

That was pretty fun.

FPNI

im going to try this on the 14th...

Appleseed is great for new people and more experienced people too. For instance, I got a girl from work to go recently. Loaned her everything she needed but ammo and went too. She had a large time but did not shoot Rifleman. Now she bought a 10-22 and is rigging it up.

She went to another Appleseed without me and shot Rifleman that time. Now she is all about it. I don’t know another program that works so well for new shooters.

So you go from having a smart, attractive female who can’t shoot and doesn’t own a firearm and in the blink of an eye she has a gun, can shoot, and is on the way to getting an AR.

So that’s what Appleseed can do. Think what a better gf and later Mom she will be now. Think she will teach her kids to shoot? Think she would have before? Merica

Go to Appleseed and take everyone you can talk into going with you. Getting people involved in shooting and able to run a rifle and get hits never goes out of style.

Of course some planning of the thing will help but your last sentence is most important.

With the fundamentals you can score well.  

Without having the fundamentals down pat it doesn't matter how many tricks a shooter uses to game it they still won't make it.

The third side of that coin is that as you master the fundamentals you can shoot a Rifleman score without all the little tricks instead just pounding out the rounds.

I completed my 3rd Appleseed and first KD event last weekend and I thought I would dig this thread up before it went into the Archives to make a response from a perspective of a "beginner" shooter.  I've never been in the military but I've been shooting most of my life.  I'd say I was a beginner more because I've never had any formal training.  I'm just your average guy that loves guns and enjoys shootings steel, paper, cans, squirrels, and the occasional rabbit.  I've shot a gun thousands of times but I'm untrained.  I don't pretend to be an operator and I've never shoot my ARs with a thumb over grip.  Until last weekend I've never actually shot at a range longer than 100 yards.  Longest shot I've ever taken was maybe 150 yards at a pig.  I've stacked bullet holes on top of each other on paper with the help of a sand bag or lead sled but unsupported 3 position shooting wasn't something I've done before.

I learned a lot about the 3 position in my first Appleseed.  I didn't score Rifleman, my best was 206.  Of the 4-5 AQT's I shot in my first AS I didn't complete a single course of fire without a mistake or two putting the wrong number of holes in the wrong target.  One of the previous posters mentions much of scoring Rifleman on the AQT is knowing the "Game" and he's absolutely right.  Even if you can make the shots in ideal conditions when you are timed to make a little bit of added stress it makes a big difference in your shot group and keeping track of simple things like number of shots on target.  55 and 65 seconds go by quick in stages 2 and 3.

Between spring and Sept I let my range membership expire and didn't fire a single live round at the range between my 1st and 2nd Appleseeds.  I did have something to practice without heading to the range and that was just the basic 3 positions and NPOA in the comfort of my house.  I wouldn't do it every day, or even every week, but sometimes I would sling up and just practice the various shooting positions aiming at a piece of graph paper I taped on the other side of the house from my home office.  Advantade of working from home is you get to practice NPOA during those boring conference calls.  Squirrels will tell you I became a better shot though.  I found I no longer needed to find a tree or whip out shooting sticks for support to take out a squirrel.  Standing with a hasty sling or a quick drop to a sitting position and my 17HMR would find it's home.  I still don't chicken wing but I can say I became a better shot off hand and now have a sitting position in my arsenal.

2nd Appleseed I shot Rifleman on my first try.  An unremarkable 215.  Because of nerves the first shot of every CoF I would send wildly off target.  I lost 19 points on just the first shot of every string.  I scored Rifleman on all 4 AQT's with a 215-223-223-211.  The last AQT I shot with little effort, rapidly shooting through the course of fire without the care I took in the previous 3 and still got a Rifleman's score.  Did I learn much on my 2nd Appleseed?  I won't say I learned as much but I still got some good instruction and got several pointers that helped me tighten my groups up even further as the day(s) progressed.  Little things I thought I was doing right but wasn't actually doing right.  It helps to have another set of eyes to critique your form.

Then came the KD last weekend and I got to see if the skills I learned at 25m could translate out to 600 yards.  I say 600 yards because we get to shoot to 600 yards in the AQT at the CMP Talladega Marksmanship park KD's.  THe KD's are different in that you don't go over shooting positions but things like trajectory, environmental effects, sight adjustment, DOPE, etc.  My hunting rifles are set up with MPBR so I've never had to DOPE out to 600.  On stage one I went 8-9-10-10-10-9 for the weekend.  Once we moved out to 200 is when things got really fun.  I've found that the sitting position is my best position.  I didn't drop a single shot from sitting all weekend.  Most of my scores were in the mid to low 90's on the NRA bullseye.



The real challenge was one I broke new ground shooting out to 300 yards.  We got to shoot several sighters and I was able to DOPE my rifle out to 600 yards.  I missed my long range rocker on my first AQT because of a poor showing on the 4th stage only scoring 6/10 hits and missing my rocker by one with a 39/50.  That was my 8/10 stage-one so I just needed to shoot as well the rest of the day and I was confident I would get my rocker.  Disaster happened and I forgot to dial in my elevation for stage 3 of the 2nd AQTand only scored 4/10.  I would have to put up a nearly perfect Stage 4 to qualify on the 2nd AQT.  Didn't think it was possible so the pressure totally off my stage 4 and I threw up a 9/10 on stage 4 for a 41.  Shooting that 4 was probably the best thing that could have happened to me.



My best score of the day was once we moved out to 600.  Shot a 45 after putting up 8/10 from the 600.  Worst thing in the world I could have done was when I looked over after 9 shots because I thought I had shot 10 and saw on the scoreboard I had 8/9 at the point.  Of course I made a horrible last shot but I'm still happy with the result.I never would have though I would be able to hit a bullseye from 600 yards away with my cheapest AR built the the cheapest scope I own shooting 55gr Wolf gold ammunition.  Now I wonder how well I would have done if I had picked up that 77gr OTM instead.



So the original question was is the marksmanship program antiquated?  I guess that depends on if you think NRA high power matches are antiquated.  It seems to me after 2 25m and a KD event that Appleseed does a great job at teaching beginner shooters the basics of High Power competition.  25m events teach you the basics of the positions and the course of fire wrapped around a history lesson and the KD event gives you the knowledge to take those shots out to 600m.  It seems like a great gateway drug into the world of High Power competition shooting.  From never having shot 3 position or past 100 yards on a range to actually shooting out to 600 I thought I did well and that was because of the great instruction.   I would say it doesn't matter if the program is antiquated to modern military tactics as the program in my eyes isn't about training shooters to quell a rebellion, fend off hordes of zombies, or kick down doors in Fallujah.  Seems to me that the RWVA is trying to get more people to become stewards of the 2nd amendment by getting them to think about our history and the importance guns in the hands of civilians played and wrapping it around a framework that teaches the basics of high power shooting and maybe get them interested and involved in competitive shooting.   $60x3 + range fees got me 3 weekends with my dad shooting guns with great groups of like-minded 2nd amendment supporters.  Big thumbs up from me.  I wouldn't change a thing.

Way to go!

Wolf Gold is a really accurate M193 clone but you're right that you'd have been doing a lot better with some 77gr OTM stuff at distance.


Well said.



Freaking nailed it!


To push yourself further try things like radically reducing your time limit.  One drill I'll have shooters do is do an entire AQT in 4 minutes or less top to bottom with a reload between each position.

To warm up for that I'll start them with the fire command on some practice green coat targets and divide the time into 10 second segments by yelling "10 seconds" every 10 seconds.  The goal is to drop to seated or prone from standing, load and fire the first round in less than 10 seconds, put another 4 rounds on the same target in 10 more seconds or less then transition to the next target and put 5 rounds on it in 10 seconds or less.  If you can do all that successfully you'll finish the 200 yard (55 second) seated stage in 30 seconds or less and the 300 yard prone (65 seconds) stage in less than 45 seconds.

To demo that I'll have myself and another instructor race with centerfire rifles to see how fast we can do it.  Usually I'll score a decent Rifleman score although this last time I was off by 1 freaking point.


Keep in mind this was shot cold with me spending the last two days walking back and forth coaching shooters.  The last time I shot my AR (or any rifle) was at a July Appleseed where I did the same thing and scored a 217.  The other guy was using an ACR he hadn't shot in 6 months and only sort of had zeroed (I ambushed him with this idea).