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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch [url]https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg View Quote And yet they still had to bring in instructors from the various state rifle associations to teach aimed fire at range to their DM's. A non free-floated M4 does not benefit from slung shooting. It tends towards impact shifts. |
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Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees. The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit. Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling. Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all! View Quote |
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And yet they still had to bring in instructors from the various state rifle associations to teach aimed fire at range to their DM's. A non free-floated M4 does not benefit from slung shooting. It tends towards impact shifts. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch [url]https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg And yet they still had to bring in instructors from the various state rifle associations to teach aimed fire at range to their DM's. A non free-floated M4 does not benefit from slung shooting. It tends towards impact shifts. Like the 1903, M1, M16A2, etc. None are free floated. |
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I'm sure a cop from MN knows more about gunfighting than the US military after over a decade of war. View Quote The Army's not squaring up either. Look at the pic earlier in the thread. While I'm not advocating standing fully side on and contorting yourself into those weird ass positions, (Pic also earlier in the thread) the square advocates are standing with their feet isosceles. The fighting stance is the correct one. |
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I have GI type web slings on all of my rifles, and I use them exactly as taught by Appleseed.
But, I'm not cool. |
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It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported. And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand. View Quote Doesn't take much to miss a target offhand, and hitting a 10" circle at 1000 is not just marksmanship fundamentals but also superior wind reading skills. |
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Different sling, different sights, but they still teach the fundamentals. NPOA, bone support, etc View Quote Appleseed was created to have a militia of competent civic nationalist riflemen (and I fucking applaud the goal!), CMP was created to have a large body of civilians who were experienced shooters before joining the military. Both are combat focused, both need to focus on combat technique stemming from the early 21st century, not the early 20th century. |
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Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees. The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit. Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling. Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all! View Quote |
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If they don't teach the C-CLAMP then yes, outdated!!!
ETA: No, Appleseed is about fundamentals not gun fighting and its still relevant. |
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All should attend, no matter how Tier 1 they are. Good stuff taught that will improve your shooting. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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LOL, I knew there would be at least one in the thread. Many of us are far beyond what Appleseed teaches, and many of us are far ahead of most Appleseed instructors. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of telling a guy who writes code for Microsoft to take a class in how to navigate Windows. It's fucking retarded, so stop it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated". Good stuff taught that will improve your shooting. |
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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg View Quote |
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It's an introductory course designed to teach marksmanship to beginners. It's not a combat course. Yes, it is still relevant today.
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Depends on what kind of shooting you're doing, particularly the range of the target. The "traditional" offhand approach is better for longer-distance shots as it offers more support, the squared-up position is good for targets inside 50m, especially in a dynamic environment. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg I think we should all remember that the bladed, bitch hip, chicken wing, Olympic/NRA/CMP standing position discussed here was designed in a time when marksmanship training programs were formulating range courses of fire to replicate early 20th century modern warfare, when rifle platoons would form a skirmish line in the standing position, set rear sights to distance based on the orders of an officer, and then volley fire on order of said officer. Do we fight that way now? Do officers select our shooting positions for us? Did we even do that shit in WWI? Fuck no. Mah Fundamentals! |
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Anyone focusing a large scale rifle marksmanship program on offhand long range precision and not snap shooting should be beat upon the head, neck and shoulders with a stout cane as they run to move the 5-10 ft necessary to find the suitable artificial support that will nearly always be present if they look for it and know how to use it. Or drop to kneeling prone, shooting off a buddy's shoulder. But that means shooters need to be taught rifle marksmanship techniques on how to do all that but alas the fundamentals can't be taught that way. I think we should all remember that the bladed, bitch hip, chicken wing, Olympic/NRA/CMP standing position discussed here was designed in a time when marksmanship training programs were formulating range courses of fire to replicate early 20th century modern warfare, when rifle platoons would form a skirmish line in the standing position, set rear sights to distance based on the orders of an officer, and then volley fire on order of said officer. Do we fight that way now? Do officers select our shooting positions for us? Did we even do that shit in WWI? Fuck no. Mah Fundamentals! http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/usamustanding1x350.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg I think we should all remember that the bladed, bitch hip, chicken wing, Olympic/NRA/CMP standing position discussed here was designed in a time when marksmanship training programs were formulating range courses of fire to replicate early 20th century modern warfare, when rifle platoons would form a skirmish line in the standing position, set rear sights to distance based on the orders of an officer, and then volley fire on order of said officer. Do we fight that way now? Do officers select our shooting positions for us? Did we even do that shit in WWI? Fuck no. Mah Fundamentals! http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/usamustanding1x350.jpg Learning how to shoot in the traditional methods helps a shooter learn more about bone support, shooting durring the NRP, etc. Of course people aren't thinking about that when rounds are in bound. That's not always the point of practice. Same thing with math. Does every math problem have to have direct correlation to calling for fire? Or does the practice help our base of knowledge and helps us to be well rounded and to help see a problem from a different angle. I am very greatfull for learning how to use shooting slings, hasty slings, etc. I have used the fundamentals in the field. |
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Anyone focusing a large scale rifle marksmanship program on offhand long range precision and not snap shooting should be beat upon the head, neck and shoulders with a stout cane as they run to move the 5-10 ft necessary to find the suitable artificial support that will nearly always be present if they look for it and know how to use it. Or drop to kneeling prone, shooting off a buddy's shoulder. But that means shooters need to be taught rifle marksmanship techniques on how to do all that but alas the fundamentals can't be taught that way. I think we should all remember that the bladed, bitch hip, chicken wing, Olympic/NRA/CMP standing position discussed here was designed in a time when marksmanship training programs were formulating range courses of fire to replicate early 20th century modern warfare, when rifle platoons would form a skirmish line in the standing position, set rear sights to distance based on the orders of an officer, and then volley fire on order of said officer. Do we fight that way now? Do officers select our shooting positions for us? Did we even do that shit in WWI? Fuck no. Mah Fundamentals! http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/usamustanding1x350.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg I think we should all remember that the bladed, bitch hip, chicken wing, Olympic/NRA/CMP standing position discussed here was designed in a time when marksmanship training programs were formulating range courses of fire to replicate early 20th century modern warfare, when rifle platoons would form a skirmish line in the standing position, set rear sights to distance based on the orders of an officer, and then volley fire on order of said officer. Do we fight that way now? Do officers select our shooting positions for us? Did we even do that shit in WWI? Fuck no. Mah Fundamentals! http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/usamustanding1x350.jpg |
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Different sling, different sights, but they still teach the fundamentals. NPOA, bone support, etc View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees. The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit. Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling. Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all! Iron sights are also, in my opinion, and advanced skill in a world full of durable optical sights. We can say both of those advanced techniques are fun to learn but don't' really apply to field shooting off a range. |
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Anyone who learns to use hand tools first has a better idea of what a power tool is expediting and how it works. They typically make a better craftsman.
Are hand tools archaic? Maybe but the principles behind them are what brought about power tools to begin with. It's a discipline that leads to better understanding of what you and the tools are capable of. Saw this awhile back. http://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2016/03/15/army-tackles-marksmanship-shortfalls-with-new-training-course/ |
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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg View Quote Maybe you should get a better grasp of what tools to grab out of the tool box for the project first before trying to get all post modernist. |
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Project Appleseed teaches the art of field shooting (solid fundamentals) and the story of April 19th, 1775. The marksmanship standard is 4MOA out to 500y.
The character traits required to learn these skills are the same that are needed to be an active, engaged citizen in our Republic. The marksman instruction and history are more than enough to achieve that end. Project Appleseed has never been about creating a militia or teaching modern tactics. In fact, both are forbidden subjects at an Appleseed weekend. Modern politics are off limits, too. The program has learned that modern tactics and modern militias are a distraction from the message of liberty, a hindrance to achieving goals, and frankly a threat to maintaining a 501c3 non-profit, non-partisan status. It's not the image a family friendly program wants to maintain. The methods and teaching in Appleseed are chosen to meet program goals. Those goals don't include creating infantry squads or SWAT door kickers. On the other hand, we've seen such professionals who strutted in but struggled to do well on the qualification test. In most cases, it's not because they didn't have skills or aptitude. It's because they didn't come with a teachable attitude, ready to learn something new. |
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I would argue that using a proper shooting sling is not a fundamental and is an advanced technique for competition. Iron sights are also, in my opinion, and advanced skill in a world full of durable optical sights. We can say both of those advanced techniques are fun to learn but don't' really apply to field shooting off a range. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees. The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit. Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling. Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all! Iron sights are also, in my opinion, and advanced skill in a world full of durable optical sights. We can say both of those advanced techniques are fun to learn but don't' really apply to field shooting off a range. |
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Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees. The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit. Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling. Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all! View Quote This is a very myopic and emotional view of Marksmanship education at the individual and institutional level. The Corps has lost its loop slings, irons (for the most part), etc. 6/7ths of the institutional level marksmanship program (by time, table, round counts, etc.) is 'combat' centric in appearance and function. Yet somehow our hit percentages in combat (a vague metric, but there is a number to this) remain as embarrassing now as they were in 2007, even with the highest qualification scores in our history. Marksmanship isn't as simple as 'one or the other'. There's other systemic problems at large. Referencing the Corps as justification for the demise of a basic marksmanship program or facet is a poor and emotional argument at best. The second post is right on. Manipulations and individual tactics will change, but mechanics never go out of style. How those are taught isn't as important as how instruction is sequenced. Then the mission can drive how much properly sequenced information is needed. It isn't ever as simple as one discipline over the other, superficial relevance, yellow glass vs. imbuing 'tacticalness'. Some people just want to shoot tim cans with a rifle. Appleseed is a decent way to get people started. The history portion may be a bit much for folks that don't associate with tricorner hats anymore, but rather iPhones. This doesn't make the transfer of marksmanship knowledge bad, or obselete. S/F |
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Just cruising by, don't have much time. This is a very myopic and emotional view of Marksmanship education at the individual and institutional level. The Corps has lost its loop slings, irons (for the most part), etc. 6/7ths of the institutional level marksmanship program (by time, table, round counts, etc.) is 'combat' centric in appearance and function. Yet somehow our hit percentages in combat (a vague metric, but there is a number to this) remain as embarrassing now as they were in 2007, even with the highest qualification scores in our history. Marksmanship isn't as simple as 'one or the other'. There's other systemic problems at large. Referencing the Corps as justification for the demise of a basic marksmanship program or facet is a poor and emotional argument at best. The second post is right on. Manipulations and individual tactics will change, but mechanics never go out of style. How those are taught isn't as important as how instruction is sequenced. Then the mission can drive how much properly sequenced information is needed. It isn't ever as simple as one discipline over the other, superficial relevance, yellow glass vs. imbuing 'tacticalness'. Some people just want to shoot tim cans with a rifle. Appleseed is a decent way to get people started. The history portion may be a bit much for folks that don't associate with tricorner hats anymore, but rather iPhones. This doesn't make the transfer of marksmanship knowledge bad, or obselete. S/F View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees. The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit. Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling. Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all! This is a very myopic and emotional view of Marksmanship education at the individual and institutional level. The Corps has lost its loop slings, irons (for the most part), etc. 6/7ths of the institutional level marksmanship program (by time, table, round counts, etc.) is 'combat' centric in appearance and function. Yet somehow our hit percentages in combat (a vague metric, but there is a number to this) remain as embarrassing now as they were in 2007, even with the highest qualification scores in our history. Marksmanship isn't as simple as 'one or the other'. There's other systemic problems at large. Referencing the Corps as justification for the demise of a basic marksmanship program or facet is a poor and emotional argument at best. The second post is right on. Manipulations and individual tactics will change, but mechanics never go out of style. How those are taught isn't as important as how instruction is sequenced. Then the mission can drive how much properly sequenced information is needed. It isn't ever as simple as one discipline over the other, superficial relevance, yellow glass vs. imbuing 'tacticalness'. Some people just want to shoot tim cans with a rifle. Appleseed is a decent way to get people started. The history portion may be a bit much for folks that don't associate with tricorner hats anymore, but rather iPhones. This doesn't make the transfer of marksmanship knowledge bad, or obselete. S/F Who fought the hardest to revamp the USMC marksmanship programs? Who was always the "wet blanket" for marksmanship reform in the Marine Corps? The Range Officers, most of whom are Distinguished? Or the Infantry Gunners? |
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You act like marksmanship techniques used 20 years ago are still cannon. Yes the core principles are the same but half of the shit that was common practice 20 years ago is mocked these days. View Quote Today many mock a "chicken wing" and then had to create the reverse chicken wing to correct the failings of removing the original position. And then get pedantic without ever knowing why the original ever came along. Learning old ways is the best basis for choosing new ways, if you need them. |
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I often see people come up with tons of justifications trying to advocate against being a well rounded shooter when it comes to fundamentals and basics. which is odd since it's so simple and easy, but gives a lot of benefit to other more advanced or niche shooting styles.
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A lot of it, imo, helps with confidence. Learning how to shoot in the traditional methods helps a shooter learn more about bone support, shooting durring the NRP, etc. Of course people aren't thinking about that when rounds are in bound. That's not always the point of practice. Same thing with math. Does every math problem have to have direct correlation to calling for fire? Or does the practice help our base of knowledge and helps us to be well rounded and to help see a problem from a different angle. I am very greatfull for learning how to use shooting slings, hasty slings, etc. I have used the fundamentals in the field. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg I think we should all remember that the bladed, bitch hip, chicken wing, Olympic/NRA/CMP standing position discussed here was designed in a time when marksmanship training programs were formulating range courses of fire to replicate early 20th century modern warfare, when rifle platoons would form a skirmish line in the standing position, set rear sights to distance based on the orders of an officer, and then volley fire on order of said officer. Do we fight that way now? Do officers select our shooting positions for us? Did we even do that shit in WWI? Fuck no. Mah Fundamentals! http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/usamustanding1x350.jpg Learning how to shoot in the traditional methods helps a shooter learn more about bone support, shooting durring the NRP, etc. Of course people aren't thinking about that when rounds are in bound. That's not always the point of practice. Same thing with math. Does every math problem have to have direct correlation to calling for fire? Or does the practice help our base of knowledge and helps us to be well rounded and to help see a problem from a different angle. I am very greatfull for learning how to use shooting slings, hasty slings, etc. I have used the fundamentals in the field. But my fighting carbines don't use the sort of sling I'd use to get into a loop or ching sling. The closest that comes to it is this one. But I don't own this one and its not standard issue to anyone, or popular. So why are techniques applying to a piece of equipment that is no longer used being predominately the one used for teaching people how to shoot? Now for additional sling support I crank down on the sling around my body, pulling the rifle tighter in my shoulder. As good as the sling I used in on the Hawaii Marine Rifle Team? No, but I'm able to use this on my carbine in a method that is both very versatile for movement and manipulation/ergonomics as well as offering some artificial support for stabilizing the weapon. |
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Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated". View Quote The Appleseed program is not the end-all-be-all of marksmanship or of using a rifle in a tactical environment. What is does is teach the fundamentals of marksmanship and it's up to the rifle to seek out higher level training after successful completion of the Appleseed program. |
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@rabidus Appleseed does count for CMP. We have certificates at each shoot for CMP eligibility if a shooter wants one. CMP is pretty lax these days anyway and will accept proof of any organized shooting as qualifying. USPSA, IDPA, and any number of others have been accepted. I seem to recall a guy in our club being told a hunter education certificate would be adequate. @cttb If an individual Appleseed instructor pushed iron sights over optics they went off script. Appleseed's policy is run what you brung and everything is the instructor training emphasizes to never bash someone's gun or gear. Emphasizing irons over optics is like telling a mixed crowd of paralyzed and able bodied people that if you don't run a marathon you're not "really" doing it. If an instructor did that they were wrong and should feel bad. @Orbital-Burn I must have missed your entry if the 1 MOA ALL DAY LONG challenge. Could you point it out? View Quote |
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As long as it's consistent tension non free-floated guns will still benefit from a tight sling. Like the 1903, M1, M16A2, etc. None are free floated. View Quote Once optics are introduced to M4s/M16s, and handguard pressure is introduced, massive point of impact shifts are presented. The distance and direction of each shift is impossible to catalog and remember for every task, distance, condition, etc. 6.5 MOA shifts are routine, 15 MOA shifts from one position to another are also regular (7.5 from center, to 7.5 to center in another vector). 100% hit distance on stock M4 (6" plate, M855, stock trigger) is 57M... that is laughable. Float the gun and his extends to 296M. Floating guns is the only answer for any optically sighted AR being used in a serious capacity (budgetary limitations being exception). Aaaaand I'm done. Sorry, I'm angry, had no coffee today. Back to observation mode. S/F |
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Only by people that don't know why it was once cannon. Today many mock a "chicken wing" and then had to create the reverse chicken wing to correct the failings of removing the original position. And then get pedantic without ever knowing why the original ever came along. Learning old ways is the best basis for choosing new ways, if you need them. View Quote The old high chicken wing was created for flat range shooting competitions when a slow fire standing course of fire was measured many many minutes, not at all using methods learned in combat. |
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Project Appleseed teaches the art of field shooting (solid fundamentals) and the story of April 19th, 1775. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Project Appleseed teaches the art of field shooting (solid fundamentals) and the story of April 19th, 1775. Quoted:
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Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees. The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit. Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling. Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all! Iron sights are also, in my opinion, and advanced skill in a world full of durable optical sights. We can say both of those advanced techniques are fun to learn but don't' really apply to field shooting off a range. I started with iron sights and would have been better off started on an optical sight. I know you understand that shooting is easier with an optical sight and allows the beginner to focus on stance and trigger control without worrying about sight alignment. Modern sports training proves that complex tasks are learned much more quickly by breaking that task down into parts and mastering each part. |
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Exactly how many times have you actually had a badguy under a front sight or with a red dot on them? The Army's not squaring up either. Look at the pic earlier in the thread. While I'm not advocating standing fully side on and contorting yourself into those weird ass positions, (Pic also earlier in the thread) the square advocates are standing with their feet isosceles. The fighting stance is the correct one. View Quote I'm not sure who taught you to put your feet right next to each other, I've always been trained to take a "boxing stance" so you can't be shoved over, and have a more stable position. And on a different note, I still shoot with a sling when possible, and even use the chickenwinged "target stance." It's stupid to neglect effective shooting positions because they don't work in every situation. |
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It makes sense to teach irons and sling.
Irons are more difficult. Optics are easy to pick up if you can use irons. The sling is a more complicated support than a bipod. It allows a much more stable position for a shot if you are not carrying a bipod. |
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I use variations of loop or ching slings on all my hunting rifles. And if that's all I was going to use them for, walking around and shooting deer or pigs or whatever, then awesome. But my fighting carbines don't use the sort of sling I'd use to get into a loop or ching sling. The closest that comes to it is this one. But I don't own this one and its not standard issue to anyone, or popular. So why are techniques applying to a piece of equipment that is no longer used being predominately the one used for teaching people how to shoot? Now for additional sling support I crank down on the sling around my body, pulling the rifle tighter in my shoulder. As good as the sling I used in on the Hawaii Marine Rifle Team? No, but I'm able to use this on my carbine in a method that is both very versatile for movement and manipulation/ergonomics as well as offering some artificial support for stabilizing the weapon. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle, Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825 Army marksmanship video current era: Instructor mentions weight forward of hips, support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support. http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg I think we should all remember that the bladed, bitch hip, chicken wing, Olympic/NRA/CMP standing position discussed here was designed in a time when marksmanship training programs were formulating range courses of fire to replicate early 20th century modern warfare, when rifle platoons would form a skirmish line in the standing position, set rear sights to distance based on the orders of an officer, and then volley fire on order of said officer. Do we fight that way now? Do officers select our shooting positions for us? Did we even do that shit in WWI? Fuck no. Mah Fundamentals! http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/usamustanding1x350.jpg Learning how to shoot in the traditional methods helps a shooter learn more about bone support, shooting durring the NRP, etc. Of course people aren't thinking about that when rounds are in bound. That's not always the point of practice. Same thing with math. Does every math problem have to have direct correlation to calling for fire? Or does the practice help our base of knowledge and helps us to be well rounded and to help see a problem from a different angle. I am very greatfull for learning how to use shooting slings, hasty slings, etc. I have used the fundamentals in the field. But my fighting carbines don't use the sort of sling I'd use to get into a loop or ching sling. The closest that comes to it is this one. But I don't own this one and its not standard issue to anyone, or popular. So why are techniques applying to a piece of equipment that is no longer used being predominately the one used for teaching people how to shoot? Now for additional sling support I crank down on the sling around my body, pulling the rifle tighter in my shoulder. As good as the sling I used in on the Hawaii Marine Rifle Team? No, but I'm able to use this on my carbine in a method that is both very versatile for movement and manipulation/ergonomics as well as offering some artificial support for stabilizing the weapon. Attached File Marines in bootcamp and throughout the fleet are using vcas slings. |
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This is not correct. Once optics are introduced to M4s/M16s, and handguard pressure is introduced, massive point of impact shifts are presented. The distance and direction of each shift is impossible to catalog and remember for every task, distance, condition, etc. 6.5 MOA shifts are routine, 15 MOA shifts from one position to another are also regular (7.5 from center, to 7.5 to center in another vector). 100% hit distance on stock M4 (6" plate, M855, stock trigger) is 57M... that is laughable. Float the gun and his extends to 296M. Floating guns is the only answer for any optically sighted AR being used in a serious capacity (budgetary limitations being exception). Aaaaand I'm done. Sorry, I'm angry, had no coffee today. Back to observation mode. S/F View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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As long as it's consistent tension non free-floated guns will still benefit from a tight sling. Like the 1903, M1, M16A2, etc. None are free floated. Once optics are introduced to M4s/M16s, and handguard pressure is introduced, massive point of impact shifts are presented. The distance and direction of each shift is impossible to catalog and remember for every task, distance, condition, etc. 6.5 MOA shifts are routine, 15 MOA shifts from one position to another are also regular (7.5 from center, to 7.5 to center in another vector). 100% hit distance on stock M4 (6" plate, M855, stock trigger) is 57M... that is laughable. Float the gun and his extends to 296M. Floating guns is the only answer for any optically sighted AR being used in a serious capacity (budgetary limitations being exception). Aaaaand I'm done. Sorry, I'm angry, had no coffee today. Back to observation mode. S/F My point was, if you apply consistent tension to a non free-floated rifle and adjust zero to your POA a tight sling will aid in groups. Is that not how it's still done? On the KD range? If tight slings do not aid in shooting then why use them? |
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What are you basing combat hit percentages on? Total rounds fired vs enemy known to have died by small arms rifle fire? Who fought the hardest to revamp the USMC marksmanship programs? Who was always the "wet blanket" for marksmanship reform in the Marine Corps? The Range Officers, most of whom are Distinguished? Or the Infantry Gunners? View Quote What am I basing hit percentages on - The mass of studies in/on/around my desk and exploding outside my computer Who fought the hardest - Unrelated debate, someone else's activities aren't going to strengthen or weaken your argument. I can throw plenty of darts at both communities. Not this debate though. S/F |
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You might be astonished to find that the Marine Corps finds the exact opposite to be true. I do enjoy irons. My favorite 2 rifles to shoot are my M1 and my m16a2 clone. Anyways, optics first seems to be the new best practice. |
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Optics mask shitty fundamentals, it's why imho irons are a lot better to teach first as they constantly force solid fundamentals, which in turn creates muscle memory (or motor learning for those who have to make semantic arguments over it).
It might be easier to get people started on optics, and get the accurate fast, but then they'll have x number of repetitions of any underlying bad habits. |
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Optics mask shitty fundamentals, it's why imho irons are a lot better to teach first as they constantly force solid fundamentals, which in turn creates muscle memory (or motor learning for those who have to make semantic arguments over it). View Quote I'm sure GS5414 will correct both of us |
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Optics mask shitty fundamentals, it's why imho irons are a lot better to teach first as they constantly force solid fundamentals, which in turn creates muscle memory (or motor learning for those who have to make semantic arguments over it). View Quote Instructors want people to come out and learn to get better on the equipment they already own. Thethe idea is that the class should be relatively low cost and accessible to every American. It shouldn't require a bunch of equipment to be purchased so someone can attend. |
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Loading for garand, using slings nobody has or uses anymore. No bipod etc. No squaring off to target for body armor. Anything else? View Quote I don't seen your posting of your Rifleman badge............. |
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I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I agree with free-floated rails being better when tension is applied, especially in the field. My point was, if you apply consistent tension to a non free-floated rifle and adjust zero to your POA a tight sling will aid in groups. Is that not how it's still done? On the KD range? If tight slings do not aid in shooting then why use them? View Quote However, think on a big scale. 300+ shooters, each one deteriorating in skill after 90 days off the gun, no level of conscious or subconscious competence. Hand and sling positions shift day to day, holds fluctuate position to positon and day to day. Ask a unknowing student why he's experiencing a strange hold and the answer sounds like, "Dunno, probably just XYZ", generally a complete misdiagnosis. Then they, after zeroing off of a bag, mag supported prone, or slung, zeroes shift more every position and table of fire. With such bad teacher to student ratios, so little time, unpredictable and unteachable shifts, and lack of shooter skill, no high level of consistency can be had in hand or sling position. They get away with it with obnoxiously large targetry. Youre right, but in the context of large numbers and little time, it's not something that can really be ironed out. S/F |
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I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I agree with free-floated rails being better when tension is applied, especially in the field. My point was, if you apply consistent tension to a non free-floated rifle and adjust zero to your POA a tight sling will aid in groups. Is that not how it's still done? On the KD range? If tight slings do not aid in shooting then why use them? View Quote |
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