When rounds like the 6.5x55 and 30-06 (30-03) were interdicted they had extremely heavy for caliber bullets. 220gr for the 30-03 and 162 for the 6.5x55.  They remained this way for a bit until they started to really pick up steam with hunters and lighter bullets were introduced.

Are the 77gr+ loadings for the 5.56 the same but in reverse?

I’ll admit, I’ve been shooting 223 and ARs for more than a decade and never shot heavier than 64gr soft points. I still am working through my stocked up crap Russian 55gr 223 for range ammo.

55gr has almost been my only weight for the entire time. It’s fast, cheap, and good m193 is easy to both train with and keep loaded in my kit (though that’s mostly Federal 64gr soft points with the same POI as m193). I have ARs in 10.5”, multiple 16”, and an 18”. All are 1:7 or 1:8 twist.

Am I crazy for not trying out 77gr ammo, especially to keep in my HD mags? I shoot my ARs a lot and always have felt a different POI would be a big bother between my practice ammo and HD ammo…

77gr is best grain.

77g TMKs will fuck everything up. From paper targets at 600 yards to elk/moose. All you need in my opinion. Fling 77g SMKs for practice or even the upper range ELDMs.

Depends on the purpose.
I jumped on the 75/77gr OTM/SMK/BTHP bandwagon right away (need to grab some PSA/AAC TMK's).  I don't know if it is a different class, but it does extend the AR15's performance in some areas with very little negative impact.

Yes. I'll even settle for 69 gr.

77gr is the way.

77 is ok
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It is a SIGNIFICANT improvement, ballistically, over the 55 and 62 grain offerings.  Heck, you tube has tons of "gel test" vidoes showing how mucb mkre effective the 70+ grain loadings are.

I shoot 75 ELD-M at our PRS club matches and do very well. 88 ELD-M work even better, but too heavy for tactical class. My barrels are chambered in 223 match as well as 223 wylde. The match is tighter than the wylde

Buddy of mine shoots BR also and is giving up the 223 to go to 22BR. He's always been pushing those 88s faster and last match got bit by his super hot load yeeting primers OTB. I always bring more ammo than I need so supplied him that day and he did just fine with my slower 75s

ETA: this is all bolt gun stuff

Yeah I like my heavies but half of why I like 77’s has more to do with the 77 TMK than 77’s in general. They’re such a great bullet.

Just move to an intermediate cartridge for game application.   Shooting a Elk or a moose is not a great idea.

How are 77 grain bullets on coyotes compared to 50-55 grain BT?

Depends on bbl length and range to target.  

18-20” bbl and target inside 200 yd, 55g works great.  Out of a 10.5” bbl or past 200, 77 g is way better.  

If 77g match bullets and 55g ball were same price, there would be no need for 55g.

I see no reason to stray from 62 gr. Gold Dot, Fusion or TBBC for home defense.

I've heard several guys on podcast mention that when they shot people with 62 grain they kept going.  77grain dropped them fast.

They are about the same price nowadays

Good Shooting!

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prone with bipod and rear bag

DD LW 16 inch barrel and Razor 1-6

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I sent my son at 14 to a sniper class with a 16" Colt and 77 grain with a Vortex 1-6.  He consistently hit steel at 950 yards.

My preferred loading is the 69grn SMK.

Accurate. Way better in the wind than lighter options.

I loaded 77grn SMks for a while and just seem to like the 69s better.

Have to test for yourself

77 TMK will fragment out to nearly 300 yards in a 10.5 barrel. Regular SMK are only 125 IIRC.

Elk and moose.  Seriously?

has the 77gr tmk come back into stock recently? I gave up looking for them.

Google and be prepared to read for days and learn a ton


here ya go

77gr knowledge

A typical 55-grain bullet starting at M193 speeds, by the time it gets to 300 yards, has slowed down to the same speed - if not slower, sometimes - than a good 73-75-77 grain projectile that started much slower but had a better BC.

Of course, if you used the very best 55-grain projectiles, the velocity loss wouldn't be so bad - but at closer ranges, I'd MUCH rather have the slower, heavy bullet, as they tend to behave more predictably than lighter/faster stuff.

In short, heavies are better-behaved at close range and have more power at longer ranges. Or, they're just better all around.

Nice shooting boys.

Cant say for 77gr but the 69gr RMR bullets slap the shit out of coyotes, very good terminal performance.

There's a giant thread on Rokslide (a western hunting forum where I lurk but don't post) where people have killed enough large game - deer, elk, and yes MOOSE - to fill up a football stadium.

Some guy started taking his wife hunting and she ended up shooting a moose with a 77 TMK.

NO, and don't you go looking again until I get a chance to buy a box.

Not even Wyoming allows it, for good reason.

I just did a side by side test at the range today with 69g SMK and 69g RMR.

In my rifle the shift in POI was minimal for my loading. I was happy about that. I have a 16" gun that i load it's own ammo for, now I can stack cans of 69gr RMR without worrying about a zero with SMK.

Inside of maybe 250 yards nothing will ever beat a 55-grain (ehhh, anything from 40 to 60 grain) polymer-tipped varmint bullet, on varmints, especially if you want to save the pelts. But I can tell you that 75-77s will flatten coyotes. I've killed a few with 75-77 stuff with my HD rifle.

Also, a 75 5.56 Tap T2 will absolutely smoke a crow.

I didn’t see any noticeable difference between the 2. That’s only on about 10-12 kills though, all under 150 yards.

My preferred load for coyotes is 60gr Vmax and 26gr of Benchmark.

It is a big improvement over 55 and 62 gr offerings if your benchmarks are only m193 and m855. The race tightens up a lot when looking at terminal performance in game and people when you have access to various others.

What isnt really possible to beat with lighter bullets is the high BC of 77gr SMKs. You can go lighter and leave the muzzle much faster but you lose it faster too.



It's a lot of round for pretty small animals comparatively. I've seen a few taken with lighter (68 gr and lighter) varmint, bonded jhp, and others like TMKs. They almost always leave a fist sized cavity or exit.

Yeah, but a lot of those were because the 62 was M855/SS109 that doesn't expand or frag very well at all, not because it weighed 62 grains.

That's why so many people prefer M193 to M855. It might be old tech and not terribly accurate but inside frag range, it works well.

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Did you even read the thread? More than enough picture proof of actual terminal destruction from TMKs and ELDMs. On par or better than .308 and magnums.

Lol I never said they did but seriously start reading that thread and it will open your eyes compared to things we've always been taught and told.

The 77 gr. Sierra Matchking has 96" (that's 8 feet, gentlemen) of drop at 600 yds w/200 yd. zero, and retains a whopping 355 ft. lbs. of energy.  By comparison, a lightweight 130 gr. bullet from a .357 magnum has 373 ft. lbs. at 100 yds.  If you want to make the case that a 130 gr. .357 is an awesome elk round, please carry on.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/223-remington-77-grain-matchking-trajectory-chart/

I'm not sure about class but I sure wouldn't want to be ventilated by one.  

I keep this in my home defense rifle.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/5-56-nato-75-gr-bthp-superformance-match#!/

See thread linked below. Beat me to it. It will change your mind on caliber and bullet selection forever.

Read the rokslide thread above. It’s bullet selection and design not foot pounds. 77Gr TMK/ELDM fucks above its class.

I went back and re-read your post. A few things: The 30-06 and 6.5x55 used VERY heavy bullets, with far higher Sectional Densities than any heavy .223 load. But given the bullet tech of the day, this was an advantage - because most engagements weren't at long ranges, and the heavy weight (or high SD) of those bullets, combined with the lower velocity, gave them a very forgiving window of performance. A heavier bullet that starts at a lower velocity doesn't have to endure the stress of ultra high speed close-range impacts, and has more weight with which to penetrate deep enough to matter. And due to its better SD, a heavier bullet (assuming similar form factor to a lighter bullet) will hold that velocity better - meaning a bigger performance range window.

The comparison between an old round-nosed 30-06 bullet and a modern 77TMK isn't exact, but, yeah, it's pretty similar. Also, the lighter bullets for, say, the 30-06, was a result of a desire to be effective at greater ranges (meaning, say, aimed fire at 300-500 yards instead of 200-300....the concept of 'long range' has changed over time), and had as much to do with better bullet shape than it did lighter/faster ammo. But notice that in the last ~decade people have learned the advantages of heavier, high-BC projectiles, and now, across the entire range of calibers, from .22 on up, EVERYONE is going heavier with all calibers. It's just that we figured out that high BCs really do matter at longer distances.

As a side note, yes, you should try some 75-77 grain stuff.

The good news is this: Chances are 95%+ that you won't have to change your zero to experiment with heavies. 5.56 ARs are great at shooting multiple loads to the same POI. This is pretty well documented and I did a bit of it this last week while trying to get some chrono data on a new rifle.

16" Ballistic Advantage barrel. 225 yards. 25 shots over 3 days with two projectiles (55 Hornady SP and 75 Hornady BTHP), the former launched with a mild load of IMR4895, the latter with THREE different powders, IMR4895 (23GR), TAC (23.5 to 23.8), and Varget (23.8 to 24.3) and two different primers. Everything from 70 degree ambient temps in the mornings to 10 rapid shots through a suppressor at noon. Variable wind from 0 to maybe 3mph. 75s traveling from 2450' to over 2800' MV. Twenty-five shots in 2.33 MOA.

False, 70 Gr TSX is best grain. Alas, way more ‘spensive than 77gr.


JMO.


ETA: 62 gr TTSX also rocks.

I've been shooting Black Hill 69gr SMKs for years.

6.8 SPC 200 yard zero 110gr BTHP 96 inch drop @ 600 yds 529 ft-lbs
negligible increase in recoil, only 3 more grains of powder than a 223 load
That was my solution. If I was going to pay more for better 223 bullets let's just go all the way better :)

I did.  There are a bunch of disagreements on the 77 applicability for big game.  It's a bad choice for big game.

I gave you the physics of the situation.  I know physics is hard, but take a look.  8 feet of drop at 600 yards, 355 ft. lbs.  Yikes.

No cartridge on the planet "fucks above its class."  It is physically impossible.  All cartridges perform exactly as they are expected to perform based on physics.  Claims like that are precisely why we have ballistics tables.  It separates the men from the boys, as they say.

By comparison, the lowly .30-06 w/100 yard zero with a 165 gr. Rem. AccuTip drops 90", but retains 1075 ft. lbs.  

http://gundata.org/blog/post/30-06-ballistics-chart/

355 ft. lbs. vs. 1075 ft. lbs.  THREE TIMES THE ENERGY at 600 yds.  Huh.  

If you'd like, we can discuss Ballistic Coefficient.  But it involves more physics.

I've killed a truckload of deer with my 6.8. I recently wrestled with building another for my kids, and ended up going 5.56. I still like my 6.8 but at the end of the day for what my kids will do with it, I think 5.56 is going to work. As they get skilled enough to reach past 200 yards we'll move them up to a larger cartridge anyway.

Lord willing, next week my oldest will be shooting my .280AI with reduced loads at 500 yards. It rained all week and we couldn't go this week.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1482156431?pid=156431

It's a solution, but still a compromise.  In fact, every cartridge is a compromise.

Physics.