[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Is this for real? $800 Luger repro (Page 2 of 3)
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Quoted: I dunno, but they seem to like him. They're making a better copy of the HiPower than FN is, they're making a decent 1911 as well and a CZ-75 clone. If they can do those, it's not a leap of faith that they could make a decent Luger for a reasonable price. Then CNN will plant a hidden camera at the Tisas factory & Biden will impose child-labor sanctions on Turkish firearms. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Lugers used fitted parts right? I wonder how this translates in a modern production environment. What took fitting in the early 1900s is trivial nowadays even by drunk Turkish cnc operators. Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Absolutely but one guy who knows what he is doing could do exactly that. Are there any Turkish John Browning types? I dunno, but they seem to like him. They're making a better copy of the HiPower than FN is, they're making a decent 1911 as well and a CZ-75 clone. If they can do those, it's not a leap of faith that they could make a decent Luger for a reasonable price. Then CNN will plant a hidden camera at the Tisas factory & Biden will impose child-labor sanctions on Turkish firearms. lol Unfortunately you may be right. |
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Quoted: CNC is pretty good about tolerances. Quoted: Quoted: The Lugers used fitted parts right? I wonder how this translates in a modern production environment. CNC is pretty good about tolerances. This. We can make precision medical equipment and aerospace components without hand-fitting. I'm sure we can build a Luger without hand-fitting. It's a neat, mechanically interesting design. But there's nothing magical about how it works. Smith and Wesson used to hand-fit all their revolvers. Not because they were some sort of believers in the Order of the Craftsman, but because their machinery simply couldn't make the parts precise enough and the guns HAD to be hand-fitted just to function. Now they don't have to. The parts are machine-made and ready to put in a gun. Some might complain about the aesthetics of a modern S&W, but functionally, they are just as good if not better than a classic one. 1911s, while they may look more like modern, simpler guns, are also fairly complicated as far as handguns go. Yet you can get a perfectly functional, if not particularly pretty 1911 for quite a bit less than $800. Lugers were made by the Germans after-all. They always do things more precisely than they really need to. |
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Quoted: holy shit I can build this and not feel bad! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14562/3ace54be3f2a881d92d1f4b09d9b9eed-1340939.png How many rounds will that RMR be good for? |
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Quoted: How many rounds will that RMR be good for? Quoted: Quoted: holy shit I can build this and not feel bad! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14562/3ace54be3f2a881d92d1f4b09d9b9eed-1340939.png How many rounds will that RMR be good for? Thousands, but you have to use an airgun RMR. 
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Quoted: holy shit I can build this and not feel bad! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14562/3ace54be3f2a881d92d1f4b09d9b9eed-1340939.png I'm thinking you should feel bad anyway.  I always wanted a Luger. My grandpa liberated a Luger from some Germans in Italy. Unfortunately some other family A Hole liberated that Luger when he passed. Or so I have been told. They have a nice copy of the CZ mini mauser on their site but it says 3rd quarter 23 available. And a revolver 410 shotgun. |
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Quoted: If they'd do a reproduction of a lange pistole 08, I'd buy one even if I knew I'd need to spend a ton of time tinkering to get it reliable. Or better yet, do a carbine ready version so I can SBR it. If they are making the action, might as well do the versions that originals are unobtainable for most people https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/68/3303.jpg That’s my fetish… |
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Quoted: Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Yeah…. You don’t run CNC machines or draw up prints…. Like at all. |
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Quoted: Shh.... everyone stay really really quiet about this... https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BmuNtq2DJfQ/maxresdefault.jpg I love you... |
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Quoted: Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Attached File |
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Quoted: Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Needs 3d solid modeled with CAD, then you design your clearances and tolerances. Use CAM to program CNC. CNC and Inspection use print dim and tolerance for QC. Just making with an old print would be manual and slow. |
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Quoted: Are actual lugers even still all that expensive? I thought I'd seen a few years ago where values had really declined as oldsters with big collections started kicking the bucket. Prices are as high as I have even seen since I started collecting them in the last 80's. |
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Quoted: Prices are as high as I have even seen since I started collecting them in the last 80's. Quoted: Quoted: Are actual lugers even still all that expensive? I thought I'd seen a few years ago where values had really declined as oldsters with big collections started kicking the bucket. Prices are as high as I have even seen since I started collecting them in the last 80's. I only started looking at them recently. From what I could see, a decent quality condition one that looks good but not so perfect to be a display-only piece, seems to go for the $1500-$2000 mark. From what I hear about their 1911's, they are actually damned good pistols, and are outshooting some much more expensive US models. I have a good feeling about their Luger's, if they decide to make them. |
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Quoted: Yeah…. You don’t run CNC machines or draw up prints…. Like at all. Quoted: Quoted: Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Yeah…. You don’t run CNC machines or draw up prints…. Like at all. I don't. Tell us how you'd take a Mauser print last used in large scale production in 1944 & translate it to a working pistol made on CNC. |
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Quoted: I don't. Tell us how you'd take a Mauser print last used in large scale production in 1944 & translate it to a working pistol made on CNC. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Yeah…. You don’t run CNC machines or draw up prints…. Like at all. I don't. Tell us how you'd take a Mauser print last used in large scale production in 1944 & translate it to a working pistol made on CNC. Is it your contention that such a thing is not possible? I don’t claim to be able to do it, but I hardly think it’s some insurmountable challenge. The 1911 is of a similar vintage, and many different companies are able to produce copies today. |
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Quoted: Is it your contention that such a thing is not possible? I don’t claim to be able to do it, but I hardly think it’s some insurmountable challenge. The 1911 is of a similar vintage, and many different companies are able to produce copies today. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Yeah…. You don’t run CNC machines or draw up prints…. Like at all. I don't. Tell us how you'd take a Mauser print last used in large scale production in 1944 & translate it to a working pistol made on CNC. Is it your contention that such a thing is not possible? I don’t claim to be able to do it, but I hardly think it’s some insurmountable challenge. The 1911 is of a similar vintage, and many different companies are able to produce copies today. Not at all. My contention is you don't just pick up a print from 1944 and start making parts, particularly if the design involved hand fitting. |
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Quoted: I have reluctantly become a believer in Turkish gunmakers. I've got a Black Aces semi auto tactical shotgun. Seven rounds in less than a second and a half. I was quite surprised. Steady as she goes as well. It's right near the bed at night for things that go bump. Hasn't hiccuped once. I've lubed her up real nice for a late night party if one were ever to occur. Home invaders beware. |
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Quoted: Needs 3d solid modeled with CAD, then you design your clearances and tolerances. Use CAM to program CNC. CNC and Inspection use print dim and tolerance for QC. Just making with an old print would be manual and slow. Quoted: Quoted: Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Needs 3d solid modeled with CAD, then you design your clearances and tolerances. Use CAM to program CNC. CNC and Inspection use print dim and tolerance for QC. Just making with an old print would be manual and slow. Tell that to our drafters. Seriously, I wish someone would, some just redraw the same shit over and over and refuse to use the 3D models. |
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Not sure about the advertising ethics over in Turkey. Maybe it’s cool with them, but I think using a picture of a real, vintage Luger to advertise your new-made reproduction is BS. Those brown Bakelite grips are a dead giveaway. The Turks are never going to gear up to produce real Bakelite like that for a shooter grade reproduction. Hell, I’ve got a Tisas 1911A1 and while the rest of the gun is first rate, the grips it came with are so cheap they look like they came from the China dollar store. Wrong color, wrong feel. I finally had to put some extra GI Colt plastic grips on it and binned the others. |
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Quoted: If they'd do a reproduction of a lange pistole 08, I'd buy one even if I knew I'd need to spend a ton of time tinkering to get it reliable. Or better yet, do a carbine ready version so I can SBR it. If they are making the action, might as well do the versions that originals are unobtainable for most people https://cdn.rockislandauction.com/dev_cdn/68/3303.jpg |
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Quoted: Not at all. My contention is you don't just pick up a print from 1944 and start making parts, particularly if the design involved hand fitting. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Not exactly. The whole print has to be reengineered to tighter tolerances that still allow it to work. Otherwise, you either still have CNC'd parts that have to be hand fitted, or you have a gun so loose it ratttles & may not run. Yeah…. You don’t run CNC machines or draw up prints…. Like at all. I don't. Tell us how you'd take a Mauser print last used in large scale production in 1944 & translate it to a working pistol made on CNC. Is it your contention that such a thing is not possible? I don’t claim to be able to do it, but I hardly think it’s some insurmountable challenge. The 1911 is of a similar vintage, and many different companies are able to produce copies today. Not at all. My contention is you don't just pick up a print from 1944 and start making parts, particularly if the design involved hand fitting. This is a favorite topic of mine. 3D scan a functional broom handle then 3D print or CNC machine the parts to the scanned dimensions. I have no idea if it could be done to create a functional firearm. |
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Quoted: This is a favorite topic of mine. 3D scan a functional broom handle then 3D print or CNC machine the parts to the scanned dimensions. I have no idea if it could be done to create a functional firearm. The problem is you don't know how close to nominal spec those particular parts are. They might be on the ragged edge of being out of spec. How accurate is the 3D scan going to be? Asking because I don't know. But if the parts you're already measuring are close to being out of spec, any additional error might make them out of spec. |
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Quoted: LoL…we can tell… Quoted: Quoted: I don't. Tell us how you'd take a Mauser print last used in large scale production in 1944 & translate it to a working pistol made on CNC. LoL…we can tell… Were you going to educate us on the process, or are you content to just snipe away from the sidelines? |
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Quoted: Were you going to educate us on the process, or are you content to just snipe away from the sidelines? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't. Tell us how you'd take a Mauser print last used in large scale production in 1944 & translate it to a working pistol made on CNC. LoL…we can tell… Were you going to educate us on the process, or are you content to just snipe away from the sidelines? No. I want to hear more about why it can’t be done… 
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Quoted: No. I want to hear more about why it can’t be done… Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't. Tell us how you'd take a Mauser print last used in large scale production in 1944 & translate it to a working pistol made on CNC. LoL…we can tell… Were you going to educate us on the process, or are you content to just snipe away from the sidelines? No. I want to hear more about why it can’t be done… I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said you have to hold tighter tolerances than the original parts or you end up having to hand fit them again. |
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A refurbed P-08 I can understand. A modern Turkish replica I don't. I was recently looking over a display case full of original Lugers at $1,600 - $2K and was in awe of the machining, wood grip checkering, and detail of these unique & attractive guns. It's a piece of history. But lacking historical precedence, a P-08 doesn't have capacity, reliability, or accuracy of other modern 9's. One might consider saving up and buying an original. But, it's all about personal preference & tastes, & if it makes you happy then that's what ultimately matters. |
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Quoted: A refurbed P-08 I can understand. A modern Turkish replica I don't. I was recently looking over a display case full of original Lugers at $1,600 - $2K and was in awe of the machining, wood grip checkering, and detail of these unique & attractive guns. It's a piece of history. But lacking historical precedence, a P-08 doesn't have capacity, reliability, or accuracy of other modern 9's. One might consider saving up and buying an original. But, it's all about personal preference & tastes, & if it makes you happy then that's what ultimately matters. I can see that, and a swiss luger is fairly high on my wish list. But for artillery or carbine variants, I think they'd look cool and I'd enjoy shooting them - but not enough to spend the money for an original. |
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Quoted: A refurbed P-08 I can understand. A modern Turkish replica I don't. I was recently looking over a display case full of original Lugers at $1,600 - $2K and was in awe of the machining, wood grip checkering, and detail of these unique & attractive guns. It's a piece of history. But lacking historical precedence, a P-08 doesn't have capacity, reliability, or accuracy of other modern 9's. One might consider saving up and buying an original. But, it's all about personal preference & tastes, & if it makes you happy then that's what ultimately matters. It's no different than the repro FG42s made by SMG, only a matter of scale (mostly financial). The FG42 is my Grail Gun, but I cannot afford the zillion skillion dollars it would take to own a real one. I can, however, scrape together enough to buy SMG's reproduction. I know it's not an original, but I don't care, because I have an FG42. Truth be told, it's actually a better gun than an original. Is it "better" than other, more modern semiauto .308 rifles (yes, more unoriginal heresy!)? No, but it's an FG42 and they aren't, and that's what matters. Same for the Lugers. Those who want one but can't afford an original can still have a Luger. Is it "better" than a modern 9x19 pistol? No, but it's a Luger, and they aren't, and that's what matters. |
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Quoted: A refurbed P-08 I can understand. A modern Turkish replica I don't. I was recently looking over a display case full of original Lugers at $1,600 - $2K and was in awe of the machining, wood grip checkering, and detail of these unique & attractive guns. It's a piece of history. But lacking historical precedence, a P-08 doesn't have capacity, reliability, or accuracy of other modern 9's. One might consider saving up and buying an original. But, it's all about personal preference & tastes, & if it makes you happy then that's what ultimately matters. The mechanisms of fireams fascinate me, the history interests me, but picking up a Girsan blem 1911 for $300 is a lot more satisfying to my Scots blood than a $1200 CMP GI that may have been there, done that, but has interchangeable parts w/ the Girsan. The mechanism of the Luger is fascinating, paying more than a grand for one is not. If I can get an accurate, parts compatible repro for $800, I'll do it. |
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Quoted: It's no different than the repro FG42s made by SMG, only a matter of scale (mostly financial). The FG42 is my Grail Gun, but I cannot afford the zillion skillion dollars it would take to own a real one. I can, however, scrape together enough to buy SMG's reproduction. I know it's not an original, but I don't care, because I have an FG42. Truth be told, it's actually a better gun than an original. Is it "better" than other, more modern semiauto .308 rifles (yes, more unoriginal heresy!)? No, but it's an FG42 and they aren't, and that's what matters. Same for the Lugers. Those who want one but can't afford an original can still have a Luger. Is it "better" than a modern 9x19 pistol? No, but it's a Luger, and they aren't, and that's what matters. Exactly. |
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Quoted: I have reluctantly become a believer in Turkish gunmakers. They’ve been at it a long time. They can make just about anything at any price point an importer wants. With modern CNC machines I’m thinking it’s possible. Owned four or five Turks over the years. All have been excellent. |
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Quoted: Exactly. Quoted: Quoted: It's no different than the repro FG42s made by SMG, only a matter of scale (mostly financial). The FG42 is my Grail Gun, but I cannot afford the zillion skillion dollars it would take to own a real one. I can, however, scrape together enough to buy SMG's reproduction. I know it's not an original, but I don't care, because I have an FG42. Truth be told, it's actually a better gun than an original. Is it "better" than other, more modern semiauto .308 rifles (yes, more unoriginal heresy!)? No, but it's an FG42 and they aren't, and that's what matters. Same for the Lugers. Those who want one but can't afford an original can still have a Luger. Is it "better" than a modern 9x19 pistol? No, but it's a Luger, and they aren't, and that's what matters. Exactly. |
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Quoted: I'll add that I don't like to shoot nice old guns with historical value, so I prefer repros that I can shoot and use and not worry about banging up or wearing out. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's no different than the repro FG42s made by SMG, only a matter of scale (mostly financial). The FG42 is my Grail Gun, but I cannot afford the zillion skillion dollars it would take to own a real one. I can, however, scrape together enough to buy SMG's reproduction. I know it's not an original, but I don't care, because I have an FG42. Truth be told, it's actually a better gun than an original. Is it "better" than other, more modern semiauto .308 rifles (yes, more unoriginal heresy!)? No, but it's an FG42 and they aren't, and that's what matters. Same for the Lugers. Those who want one but can't afford an original can still have a Luger. Is it "better" than a modern 9x19 pistol? No, but it's a Luger, and they aren't, and that's what matters. Exactly. I'll add that I don't like to shoot nice old guns with historical value, so I prefer repros that I can shoot and use and not worry about banging up or wearing out. I like to shoot other people's nice old guns w/ historical value, particularly w/ their ammo. But it's really the mechanism I'm interested in, not whether it's in an original stock or it's the 3rd or 4th change or has any of the original bluing left. I only have so much money, and if I'm buying old guns, then I'm buying as many legal antiques as I can afford, as long as I can repair them to shootable condition. I'd rather have a beat to hell 1898 dated GEW 98 than a pristine 1917 made. |
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Quoted: I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said you have to hold tighter tolerances than the original parts or you end up having to hand fit them again. Yep. Don’t know what you are talking about. Sorry. Tool and Die Maker here, 31 years. ETA, yes, I run a CNC machine as a part of my job. You need to understand how tolerancing on parts affects working clearances in an assembly. Until then…. |
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Quoted: Yep. Don’t know what you are talking about. Sorry. Tool and Die Maker here, 31 years. ETA, yes, I run a CNC machine as a part of my job. You need to understand how tolerancing on parts affects working clearances in an assembly. Until then…. Quoted: Quoted: I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said you have to hold tighter tolerances than the original parts or you end up having to hand fit them again. Yep. Don’t know what you are talking about. Sorry. Tool and Die Maker here, 31 years. ETA, yes, I run a CNC machine as a part of my job. You need to understand how tolerancing on parts affects working clearances in an assembly. Until then…. Explain it then. How would you take a 1944 print & translate it to a working gun made of CNC parts? How did Remington do it on Marlin's guns, screw it up & have to fix it? |
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Quoted: holy shit I can build this and not feel bad! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/14562/3ace54be3f2a881d92d1f4b09d9b9eed-1340939.png 
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Quoted: ?? Reverse engineering isn't possible. You guys just don't understand! Personally, I'd love to see a modern manufactured reasonably priced Luger.  Nobody's saying it's not possible. But as we saw w/ the Remlins, there are some issues taking a design intended to be hand fitted to modern CNC manufacturing. If you guys don't want to explain how Remington got it wrong, that's fine.
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| For a second I thought that was just a KGP68 ..but nope; that looks like a Luger alright! |
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Quoted: For an illustration of conversion of hand fitted firearms to modern CNC techniques, remember the Remlins right after Remington took over Marlin? Took Remington a bit to get those designs sorted to modern manufacturing techniques. Having to figure out everything that a companies machinists sabotaged after you fired them all is different than recreating an old gun with new machinery. |