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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:47:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Usually, the country that commits genocide (and baby raping) ends up being the "bad guy" in the story. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the tangible negative result for American citizens, if Russia takes Ukraine? Hunter Biden and associates can’t launder millions in bribes? Seriously. How does it affect the guy working at the local McDonalds? It doesn’t. That’s not pro Russia…it’s literally America First. Well, it wouldn't have ended with Ukraine for one. Two, personally, I am totally okay with providing weapons and training to a country that is quite literally at risk of being genocided. It doesn't effect the guy at mcdonald's, but it doesn't have to in order to justify some level of help. Apply that standard globally. Wanna go visit Rwanda? Maybe we should step in when Ethiopia and Eretria go at it again? How about the CAR and the never ending purges...it's a literal genocide. What's the difference now? Why now and not then? Maybe we can add Tibet and what the Chinese did/are doing there? Wanna go toe to toe with the Chinese? You can't claim an ethical standard and then selectively apply it. We let genocide happen regularly and do nothing...so why are we all fired up about this one? Could there be other reasons...gee...what else happens in that specific country...  A civil war within a country in africa is a lot different than an unjustified invasion in Europe. Not an apples to apples comparison. Further, Rwandan forces never had their eyes on neighbors, and never threatened dropping nukes on everyone if they didn't get their way. Don't get me wrong, it's a tragedy, but it's not the same scenario. What else is in Ukraine? Please be specific and provide sources. Ukraine is a corrupt quasi oligarchy that laundered money for US political groups and foreign powers. It is one of the most corrupt places on earth. This has not changed from then to now. Not once, has anyone in this thread identified a US National Interest in us fighting Russia for Ukraine. My standard is as stated above- Tell the guy working at McDonalds, why US tax money and manpower should go to Ukraine and not to anywhere else on the planet including domestic spending. Explain how that guy's taxes should be spent in Ukraine and exactly what will happen to him if we don't do it. Nothing...his life will not change by us staying home. We can feel bad about someone's country being invaded without that meaning we have to jump into the middle of the conflict. Ukraine democratically elected their leaders, and in fact the last time someone tried to prove what you said they actually ended up accidentally proving that it was Zelenskey's opposition that was the particularly corrupt party. Oops. I notice that you provided no sources, nor can you explain why them being corrupt means they waive the right to self defense. We are corrupt as well. I never said manpower should go to Ukraine or that we should "jump in the middle of it". But providing weapons and training is good to go. Your standard is weird. Yeah, the US democratically elected someone too...keep believing that. You want to get your war boner wet. Go get some. Stop pretending it is moral or justified and do it on your own time, not by proxy of US taxpayers and armed forces. There are no good guys in this fight. None. Stop trying to make it look like a john wayne movie and accept the reality that is is just two corrupt states fighting one another. PS. Nations don't have morality. They have national interests and what is best for their own citizens...is their national interest. There is zero upside for the US to be involved here...none. Usually, the country that commits genocide (and baby raping) ends up being the "bad guy" in the story. You wanna go full war boner on every country that has child sex crimes? We're gonna need a bigger boat. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:49:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia is a known quantity and has Putin because of a pissing match between corrupt oligarchs same as Ukraine. Zelensky’s sponsor, Kolomoiyskyi, has been called “Ukraine’s Berezovsky”. Berezovsky is the Russian oligarch that funded Putin’s rise to power in order to counter Western economic competitors and then Putin chased him out of Russia, seized his assets and eventually assassinated him. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Russia is the same and has done as much or more, so why do you support them trying to annex their neighbor? Russia is a known quantity and has Putin because of a pissing match between corrupt oligarchs same as Ukraine. Zelensky’s sponsor, Kolomoiyskyi, has been called “Ukraine’s Berezovsky”. Berezovsky is the Russian oligarch that funded Putin’s rise to power in order to counter Western economic competitors and then Putin chased him out of Russia, seized his assets and eventually assassinated him. So all the bribery, money laundering, and meddling in US politics that Russia has done and is still doing is ok, but Ukraine’s corruption means they should be invaded and genocided… is that right? |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:50:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia is the same and has done as much or more, so why do you support them trying to annex their neighbor? According to the guy who started the pissing match with Berezovsky that bungled the opportunity of post-Soviet Russia and ended up funding Putin, it was the US and Western European democracies that lost Russia by being skeptical and frugal..,lol https://www.georgesoros.com/2000/04/13/who-lost-russia/ |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:50:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has been a while since I studied the subject but was not Belarus the White Russians and the Ukrainians were the Little Russians Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Usually, the country that commits genocide (and baby raping) ends up being the "bad guy" in the story. Fratricide, they’re both ethnically Eastern Slavs along with Belarusians. You don't comprehend the issue as they see it then. Russia agrees with you. They say Ukrainians are also Russians, and Belarusians are little Russians. If you disagree with this, then you are a nationalist/nazi (their definition) and thus need to die. They are attempting to wipe out the national identity of Ukraine- this is genocide, not fratricide. Words mean things. It has been a while since I studied the subject but was not Belarus the White Russians and the Ukrainians were the Little Russians You're right I think, I get them mixed up. White in Russian is like belo, or bela. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:51:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am still in, and I have no intention of going to fight. I also have no problem in helping UKR to defend themselves. Stop pretending like I'm advocating we go to war. I'm not. In fact, doing what we're doing now helps to ensure Russia cannot invade another country and thus triggering article 5. This is one of the biggest upsides for us. Ensuring Russia has zero ability to trigger art 5. See, you can't think just one step ahead, you have to think of the unintended consequences of action and inaction. Your PS is wrong. When a nation unjustifiably invades, condones murder, pillage and rape and deliberately targets civilians that is immoral. I'm surprised this has to be said. Russia is very clearly the bad guy here, even a significant amount of Russians understand this. Ukraine is about as "good" as a country can be concerning this war. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the tangible negative result for American citizens, if Russia takes Ukraine? Hunter Biden and associates can’t launder millions in bribes? Seriously. How does it affect the guy working at the local McDonalds? It doesn’t. That’s not pro Russia…it’s literally America First. Well, it wouldn't have ended with Ukraine for one. Two, personally, I am totally okay with providing weapons and training to a country that is quite literally at risk of being genocided. It doesn't effect the guy at mcdonald's, but it doesn't have to in order to justify some level of help. Apply that standard globally. Wanna go visit Rwanda? Maybe we should step in when Ethiopia and Eretria go at it again? How about the CAR and the never ending purges...it's a literal genocide. What's the difference now? Why now and not then? Maybe we can add Tibet and what the Chinese did/are doing there? Wanna go toe to toe with the Chinese? You can't claim an ethical standard and then selectively apply it. We let genocide happen regularly and do nothing...so why are we all fired up about this one? Could there be other reasons...gee...what else happens in that specific country... A civil war within a country in africa is a lot different than an unjustified invasion in Europe. Not an apples to apples comparison. Further, Rwandan forces never had their eyes on neighbors, and never threatened dropping nukes on everyone if they didn't get their way. Don't get me wrong, it's a tragedy, but it's not the same scenario. What else is in Ukraine? Please be specific and provide sources. Ukraine is a corrupt quasi oligarchy that laundered money for US political groups and foreign powers. It is one of the most corrupt places on earth. This has not changed from then to now. Not once, has anyone in this thread identified a US National Interest in us fighting Russia for Ukraine. My standard is as stated above- Tell the guy working at McDonalds, why US tax money and manpower should go to Ukraine and not to anywhere else on the planet including domestic spending. Explain how that guy's taxes should be spent in Ukraine and exactly what will happen to him if we don't do it. Nothing...his life will not change by us staying home. We can feel bad about someone's country being invaded without that meaning we have to jump into the middle of the conflict. Ukraine democratically elected their leaders, and in fact the last time someone tried to prove what you said they actually ended up accidentally proving that it was Zelenskey's opposition that was the particularly corrupt party. Oops. I notice that you provided no sources, nor can you explain why them being corrupt means they waive the right to self defense. We are corrupt as well. I never said manpower should go to Ukraine or that we should "jump in the middle of it". But providing weapons and training is good to go. Your standard is weird. Yeah, the US democratically elected someone too...keep believing that. You want to get your war boner wet. Go get some. Stop pretending it is moral or justified and do it on your own time, not by proxy of US taxpayers and armed forces. There are no good guys in this fight. None. Stop trying to make it look like a john wayne movie and accept the reality that is is just two corrupt states fighting one another. PS. Nations don't have morality. They have national interests and what is best for their own citizens...is their national interest. There is zero upside for the US to be involved here...none. I am still in, and I have no intention of going to fight. I also have no problem in helping UKR to defend themselves. Stop pretending like I'm advocating we go to war. I'm not. In fact, doing what we're doing now helps to ensure Russia cannot invade another country and thus triggering article 5. This is one of the biggest upsides for us. Ensuring Russia has zero ability to trigger art 5. See, you can't think just one step ahead, you have to think of the unintended consequences of action and inaction. Your PS is wrong. When a nation unjustifiably invades, condones murder, pillage and rape and deliberately targets civilians that is immoral. I'm surprised this has to be said. Russia is very clearly the bad guy here, even a significant amount of Russians understand this. Ukraine is about as "good" as a country can be concerning this war. LOL, "Unjust" according to whom? We...as in the US Military...knowingly and intentionally firebombed entire cities full of civilians and we did it on purpose, multiple times. There is no morality in war. None. Morality is the illusion sold to simpletons who want a good vs evil feeling to justify the horrible things that are done as if it gives the deaths purpose and allows the people to not have to answer hard questions about how horrible their actions truly were. It is imbecilic to moralize war. It has no morality. It has winners and losers. All else is just to feel better about doing what you did to win. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:51:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You wanna go full war boner on every country that has child sex crimes? We're gonna need a bigger boat. UN “peacekeepers” have a really bad reputation for the sex crime thing, so I wouldn’t rely on them if it comes to that. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:52:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: According to the guy who started the pissing match with Berezovsky that bungled the opportunity of post-Soviet Russia and ended up funding Putin, it was the US and Western European democracies that lost Russia by being skeptical and frugal..,lol https://www.georgesoros.com/2000/04/13/who-lost-russia/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Russia is the same and has done as much or more, so why do you support them trying to annex their neighbor? According to the guy who started the pissing match with Berezovsky that bungled the opportunity of post-Soviet Russia and ended up funding Putin, it was the US and Western European democracies that lost Russia by being skeptical and frugal..,lol https://www.georgesoros.com/2000/04/13/who-lost-russia/ Still not seeing why this makes Russia ok for trying to annex a neighbor, and Ukrainians deserving of genocide… |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:53:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't need others to believe a certain way to validate my own positions... but I am relieved to see FedDC taking the Russian apologist position.  I can't remember anything I've agreed with him on. Since when is "not my issue, stay home and fix actual American problems first"...being a russian apologist. List one place where I said russia is good or right? You can't. If you can't justify this war to a guy mowing grass for grocery money...you can't justify it...and you can't. It doesn't improve his life one bit. It doesn't improve his situation in life at all...it makes it worse. That guy is an actual American and he should be the focus of American governmental aid and support...not a corrupt foreign power. If that's your definition of "pro russia"...you are simply wrong. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:55:32 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So is this more about rooting for Russia, or is it that they're just not rooting for Ukraine? It's insufficient for you to not be racist....you have to be actively anti-racist and attack people for not being anti-racist enough.... That's the entire Ukraine thread. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:55:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So all the bribery, money laundering, and meddling in US politics that Russia has done and is still doing is ok, but Ukraine’s corruption means they should be invaded and genocided… is that right? No, but as my mom used to say “it’s easy to be an asshole, there’s sn abundance of them and you don’t need to be one too”. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:57:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia is the same and has done as much or more, so why do you support them trying to annex their neighbor? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ukraine is a corrupt quasi oligarchy that laundered money for US political groups and foreign powers. It is one of the most corrupt places on earth. This has not changed from then to now. Russia is the same and has done as much or more, so why do you support them trying to annex their neighbor? You know...it is possible for America to simply not jump into the middle of every war...we do have an option C...stay home...fix our domestic issues...stop jumping into wars we can't afford and won't win... Why do you assume it is a binary choice? It's not. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:57:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Go Russia!
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:57:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, "Unjust" according to whom? We...as in the US Military...knowingly and intentionally firebombed entire cities full of civilians and we did it on purpose, multiple times. There is no morality in war. None. Morality is the illusion sold to simpletons who want a good vs evil feeling to justify the horrible things that are done as if it gives the deaths purpose and allows the people to not have to answer hard questions about how horrible their actions truly were. It is imbecilic to moralize war. It has no morality. It has winners and losers. All else is just to feel better about doing what you did to win. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the tangible negative result for American citizens, if Russia takes Ukraine? Hunter Biden and associates can’t launder millions in bribes? Seriously. How does it affect the guy working at the local McDonalds? It doesn’t. That’s not pro Russia…it’s literally America First. Well, it wouldn't have ended with Ukraine for one. Two, personally, I am totally okay with providing weapons and training to a country that is quite literally at risk of being genocided. It doesn't effect the guy at mcdonald's, but it doesn't have to in order to justify some level of help. Apply that standard globally. Wanna go visit Rwanda? Maybe we should step in when Ethiopia and Eretria go at it again? How about the CAR and the never ending purges...it's a literal genocide. What's the difference now? Why now and not then? Maybe we can add Tibet and what the Chinese did/are doing there? Wanna go toe to toe with the Chinese? You can't claim an ethical standard and then selectively apply it. We let genocide happen regularly and do nothing...so why are we all fired up about this one? Could there be other reasons...gee...what else happens in that specific country... A civil war within a country in africa is a lot different than an unjustified invasion in Europe. Not an apples to apples comparison. Further, Rwandan forces never had their eyes on neighbors, and never threatened dropping nukes on everyone if they didn't get their way. Don't get me wrong, it's a tragedy, but it's not the same scenario. What else is in Ukraine? Please be specific and provide sources. Ukraine is a corrupt quasi oligarchy that laundered money for US political groups and foreign powers. It is one of the most corrupt places on earth. This has not changed from then to now. Not once, has anyone in this thread identified a US National Interest in us fighting Russia for Ukraine. My standard is as stated above- Tell the guy working at McDonalds, why US tax money and manpower should go to Ukraine and not to anywhere else on the planet including domestic spending. Explain how that guy's taxes should be spent in Ukraine and exactly what will happen to him if we don't do it. Nothing...his life will not change by us staying home. We can feel bad about someone's country being invaded without that meaning we have to jump into the middle of the conflict. Ukraine democratically elected their leaders, and in fact the last time someone tried to prove what you said they actually ended up accidentally proving that it was Zelenskey's opposition that was the particularly corrupt party. Oops. I notice that you provided no sources, nor can you explain why them being corrupt means they waive the right to self defense. We are corrupt as well. I never said manpower should go to Ukraine or that we should "jump in the middle of it". But providing weapons and training is good to go. Your standard is weird. Yeah, the US democratically elected someone too...keep believing that. You want to get your war boner wet. Go get some. Stop pretending it is moral or justified and do it on your own time, not by proxy of US taxpayers and armed forces. There are no good guys in this fight. None. Stop trying to make it look like a john wayne movie and accept the reality that is is just two corrupt states fighting one another. PS. Nations don't have morality. They have national interests and what is best for their own citizens...is their national interest. There is zero upside for the US to be involved here...none. I am still in, and I have no intention of going to fight. I also have no problem in helping UKR to defend themselves. Stop pretending like I'm advocating we go to war. I'm not. In fact, doing what we're doing now helps to ensure Russia cannot invade another country and thus triggering article 5. This is one of the biggest upsides for us. Ensuring Russia has zero ability to trigger art 5. See, you can't think just one step ahead, you have to think of the unintended consequences of action and inaction. Your PS is wrong. When a nation unjustifiably invades, condones murder, pillage and rape and deliberately targets civilians that is immoral. I'm surprised this has to be said. Russia is very clearly the bad guy here, even a significant amount of Russians understand this. Ukraine is about as "good" as a country can be concerning this war. LOL, "Unjust" according to whom? We...as in the US Military...knowingly and intentionally firebombed entire cities full of civilians and we did it on purpose, multiple times. There is no morality in war. None. Morality is the illusion sold to simpletons who want a good vs evil feeling to justify the horrible things that are done as if it gives the deaths purpose and allows the people to not have to answer hard questions about how horrible their actions truly were. It is imbecilic to moralize war. It has no morality. It has winners and losers. All else is just to feel better about doing what you did to win. Unjust according to anyone with any sense, including many Russians who are dumbfounded that an American would say something as ridiculous as you just said. You clearly missed your PME, I'm saddened that we have such uneducated people in our ranks. I cannot believe that you never studied Just War Theory. Ignoring morality in war is for simpletons who are too scared to assign morality to actions. You are hilariously wrong, and need to educate yourself. Here's a primer. https://iep.utm.edu/justwar/ |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 4:58:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since when is "not my issue, stay home and fix actual American problems first"...being a russian apologist. List one place where I said russia is good or right? You can't. If you can't justify this war to a guy mowing grass for grocery money...you can't justify it...and you can't. It doesn't improve his life one bit. It doesn't improve his situation in life at all...it makes it worse. That guy is an actual American and he should be the focus of American governmental aid and support...not a corrupt foreign power. If that's your definition of "pro russia"...you are simply wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't need others to believe a certain way to validate my own positions... but I am relieved to see FedDC taking the Russian apologist position. I can't remember anything I've agreed with him on. Since when is "not my issue, stay home and fix actual American problems first"...being a russian apologist. List one place where I said russia is good or right? You can't. If you can't justify this war to a guy mowing grass for grocery money...you can't justify it...and you can't. It doesn't improve his life one bit. It doesn't improve his situation in life at all...it makes it worse. That guy is an actual American and he should be the focus of American governmental aid and support...not a corrupt foreign power. If that's your definition of "pro russia"...you are simply wrong. When you say Russia is just in their actions and compare their actions to the US then you are a Russian apologist, don't sugar coat it. Be brave and own your opinion if you're going to do it. Don't hide behind it now. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:00:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know...it is possible for America to simply not jump into the middle of every war...we do have an option C...stay home...fix our domestic issues...stop jumping into wars we can't afford and won't win... Why do you assume it is a binary choice? It's not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ukraine is a corrupt quasi oligarchy that laundered money for US political groups and foreign powers. It is one of the most corrupt places on earth. This has not changed from then to now. Russia is the same and has done as much or more, so why do you support them trying to annex their neighbor? You know...it is possible for America to simply not jump into the middle of every war...we do have an option C...stay home...fix our domestic issues...stop jumping into wars we can't afford and won't win... Why do you assume it is a binary choice? It's not. How many brigades have we sent to Ukraine? I must have missed that news… Simply supplying support to people who have a neighbor trying to commit genocide against them sounds like a nice thing to do. Preventing a violent expansionist (that is also really corrupt) from expanding closer to your allies, especially since that violent expansionist has worked so hard to screw and threaten you specifically, sounds like it’d be in a smart country’s best interest. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:00:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do you assume it is a binary choice? It's not. Right...we can fix domestic issues and support Ukraine. We won't, but it's not because we're sending weapons to UKR. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:02:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still not seeing why this makes Russia ok for trying to annex a neighbor, and Ukrainians deserving of genocide… Russia isn’t ok, and we’re partly to blame for trusting short sighted foreign policy amateurs with too much money to meddle there and push bad policies, prematurely, because they were more interested in rapid financial gain in undeveloped markets? Also if you weren’t blind to that geopolitical truth you saw this coming before the fires in Maidan Square were even out. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:04:31 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of us are totally rooting for Ukraine and their national identity but we know that this is a proxy war. If you go to my posts on Maidan back during the Obama regime, you’ll see I knew this was coming. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So is this more about rooting for Russia, or is it that they're just not rooting for Ukraine? Some of us are totally rooting for Ukraine and their national identity but we know that this is a proxy war. If you go to my posts on Maidan back during the Obama regime, you’ll see I knew this was coming. Plenty of people are rooting for Ukraine. Hell, I root for them, but that doesn't mean I want our involvement to grow. We've hit the limit of what I'm willing to do for them. The point is that I see plenty of people who don't like Ukraine, or don't like us getting involved. I don't see many openly rooting for Russia. There's very few of those. I see tons more people in this thread that conflate not rooting for Ukraine, or not wanting to be involved, or not liking either country as "rooting for Russia." That's garbage. Personally, I think that any of those 3 are perfectly reasonable. It's not our fight. They don't have to give a damn, and there's very little reason that the normal American should really give a damn. Some are way too wrapped up in this. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:05:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia isn’t ok, and we’re partly to blame for trusting short sighted foreign policy amateurs with too much money to meddle there and push bad policies, prematurely because they were more interested in rapid financial gain in undeveloped markets? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Still not seeing why this makes Russia ok for trying to annex a neighbor, and Ukrainians deserving of genocide… Russia isn’t ok, and we’re partly to blame for trusting short sighted foreign policy amateurs with too much money to meddle there and push bad policies, prematurely because they were more interested in rapid financial gain in undeveloped markets? So we made poor Vladi invade his neighbor, and they’re not responsible since it’s our fault? An interesting take. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:06:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's insufficient for you to not be racist....you have to be actively anti-racist and attack people for not being anti-racist enough.... That's the entire Ukraine thread. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So is this more about rooting for Russia, or is it that they're just not rooting for Ukraine? It's insufficient for you to not be racist....you have to be actively anti-racist and attack people for not being anti-racist enough.... That's the entire Ukraine thread. That's what I'm seeing... We've gone from "stop liking what I don't like" to "you better like what I like or else." It's a shit liberal tactic. As I said before, there's very little reason that the average American should really give a damn at all. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:08:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unjust according to anyone with any sense, including many Russians who are dumbfounded that an American would say something as ridiculous as you just said. You clearly missed your PME, I'm saddened that we have such uneducated people in our ranks. I cannot believe that you never studied Just War Theory. Ignoring morality in war is for simpletons who are too scared to assign morality to actions. You are hilariously wrong, and need to educate yourself. Here's a primer. https://iep.utm.edu/justwar/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the tangible negative result for American citizens, if Russia takes Ukraine? Hunter Biden and associates can’t launder millions in bribes? Seriously. How does it affect the guy working at the local McDonalds? It doesn’t. That’s not pro Russia…it’s literally America First. Well, it wouldn't have ended with Ukraine for one. Two, personally, I am totally okay with providing weapons and training to a country that is quite literally at risk of being genocided. It doesn't effect the guy at mcdonald's, but it doesn't have to in order to justify some level of help. Apply that standard globally. Wanna go visit Rwanda? Maybe we should step in when Ethiopia and Eretria go at it again? How about the CAR and the never ending purges...it's a literal genocide. What's the difference now? Why now and not then? Maybe we can add Tibet and what the Chinese did/are doing there? Wanna go toe to toe with the Chinese? You can't claim an ethical standard and then selectively apply it. We let genocide happen regularly and do nothing...so why are we all fired up about this one? Could there be other reasons...gee...what else happens in that specific country... A civil war within a country in africa is a lot different than an unjustified invasion in Europe. Not an apples to apples comparison. Further, Rwandan forces never had their eyes on neighbors, and never threatened dropping nukes on everyone if they didn't get their way. Don't get me wrong, it's a tragedy, but it's not the same scenario. What else is in Ukraine? Please be specific and provide sources. Ukraine is a corrupt quasi oligarchy that laundered money for US political groups and foreign powers. It is one of the most corrupt places on earth. This has not changed from then to now. Not once, has anyone in this thread identified a US National Interest in us fighting Russia for Ukraine. My standard is as stated above- Tell the guy working at McDonalds, why US tax money and manpower should go to Ukraine and not to anywhere else on the planet including domestic spending. Explain how that guy's taxes should be spent in Ukraine and exactly what will happen to him if we don't do it. Nothing...his life will not change by us staying home. We can feel bad about someone's country being invaded without that meaning we have to jump into the middle of the conflict. Ukraine democratically elected their leaders, and in fact the last time someone tried to prove what you said they actually ended up accidentally proving that it was Zelenskey's opposition that was the particularly corrupt party. Oops. I notice that you provided no sources, nor can you explain why them being corrupt means they waive the right to self defense. We are corrupt as well. I never said manpower should go to Ukraine or that we should "jump in the middle of it". But providing weapons and training is good to go. Your standard is weird. Yeah, the US democratically elected someone too...keep believing that. You want to get your war boner wet. Go get some. Stop pretending it is moral or justified and do it on your own time, not by proxy of US taxpayers and armed forces. There are no good guys in this fight. None. Stop trying to make it look like a john wayne movie and accept the reality that is is just two corrupt states fighting one another. PS. Nations don't have morality. They have national interests and what is best for their own citizens...is their national interest. There is zero upside for the US to be involved here...none. I am still in, and I have no intention of going to fight. I also have no problem in helping UKR to defend themselves. Stop pretending like I'm advocating we go to war. I'm not. In fact, doing what we're doing now helps to ensure Russia cannot invade another country and thus triggering article 5. This is one of the biggest upsides for us. Ensuring Russia has zero ability to trigger art 5. See, you can't think just one step ahead, you have to think of the unintended consequences of action and inaction. Your PS is wrong. When a nation unjustifiably invades, condones murder, pillage and rape and deliberately targets civilians that is immoral. I'm surprised this has to be said. Russia is very clearly the bad guy here, even a significant amount of Russians understand this. Ukraine is about as "good" as a country can be concerning this war. LOL, "Unjust" according to whom? We...as in the US Military...knowingly and intentionally firebombed entire cities full of civilians and we did it on purpose, multiple times. There is no morality in war. None. Morality is the illusion sold to simpletons who want a good vs evil feeling to justify the horrible things that are done as if it gives the deaths purpose and allows the people to not have to answer hard questions about how horrible their actions truly were. It is imbecilic to moralize war. It has no morality. It has winners and losers. All else is just to feel better about doing what you did to win. Unjust according to anyone with any sense, including many Russians who are dumbfounded that an American would say something as ridiculous as you just said. You clearly missed your PME, I'm saddened that we have such uneducated people in our ranks. I cannot believe that you never studied Just War Theory. Ignoring morality in war is for simpletons who are too scared to assign morality to actions. You are hilariously wrong, and need to educate yourself. Here's a primer. https://iep.utm.edu/justwar/ I had that class. Then I went to Iraq...twice. Same with Afghanistan. Theory met reality and reality wasn't like the books and powerpoints. It smelled a lot worse too and justice wasn't what decided who lived and died. War sounds awesome when you are 25. I thought it was the best thing...ever. Looking back, it was pointless and full of needless human suffering that would not have happened if we had not been there. It was not just for the literal truckloads of dead people that are still dead, no matter how much pretty paper we wrap our involvement in. War and just are not words that go together. Not in reality. Justice and truth are the first real casualties of war. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:09:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you say Russia is just in their actions and compare their actions to the US then you are a Russian apologist, don't sugar coat it. Be brave and own your opinion if you're going to do it. Don't hide behind it now. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't need others to believe a certain way to validate my own positions... but I am relieved to see FedDC taking the Russian apologist position. I can't remember anything I've agreed with him on. Since when is "not my issue, stay home and fix actual American problems first"...being a russian apologist. List one place where I said russia is good or right? You can't. If you can't justify this war to a guy mowing grass for grocery money...you can't justify it...and you can't. It doesn't improve his life one bit. It doesn't improve his situation in life at all...it makes it worse. That guy is an actual American and he should be the focus of American governmental aid and support...not a corrupt foreign power. If that's your definition of "pro russia"...you are simply wrong. When you say Russia is just in their actions and compare their actions to the US then you are a Russian apologist, don't sugar coat it. Be brave and own your opinion if you're going to do it. Don't hide behind it now. Who said russia is just in their actions? I haven't seen anyone say Russia is just for attacking a sovereign nation. I said it is not an American problem and that we have serious problems at home and in nations where we have a true national interest. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:10:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unjust according to anyone with any sense, including many Russians who are dumbfounded that an American would say something as ridiculous as you just said. You clearly missed your PME, I'm saddened that we have such uneducated people in our ranks. I cannot believe that you never studied Just War Theory. Ignoring morality in war is for simpletons who are too scared to assign morality to actions. You are hilariously wrong, and need to educate yourself. Here's a primer. https://iep.utm.edu/justwar/ Morality was avoided to create this mess. The policy makers that fostered all of this claim that you and I are the ones possessed with demagoguery. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:12:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what I'm seeing... We've gone from "stop liking what I don't like" to "you better like what I like or else." It's a shit liberal tactic. As I said before, there's very little reason that the average American should really give a damn at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So is this more about rooting for Russia, or is it that they're just not rooting for Ukraine? It's insufficient for you to not be racist....you have to be actively anti-racist and attack people for not being anti-racist enough.... That's the entire Ukraine thread. That's what I'm seeing... We've gone from "stop liking what I don't like" to "you better like what I like or else." It's a shit liberal tactic. As I said before, there's very little reason that the average American should really give a damn at all. Except there's plenty of reasons we should give a damn, preventing the triggering of art 5 is a big one. You seem to be okay with providing weapons, unless I misunderstand you- so I think you agree with 99% of the pro-Ukraine people. The fact is, if Russia had an easy victory, they would not have stopped there. Vovo told us so. It's in our best interest to support Ukraine to ensure it doesn't happen. So far, so good- even if it's looking a bit grim in the east...they still won't have the horsepower to move on. For quite a few years anyway. So, that's the pragmatic part of it. On the moral part of it, many people are not okay idly sitting by watching people suffer genocide, when we can do something about it (again, weapons and training, not boots on deck). I personally can't fathom how anyone would say "fuck 'em, their government is corrupt" as we watch cities get leveled and animals rape and murder their way across their country. It makes no sense to me. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:15:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had that class. Then I went to Iraq...twice. Same with Afghanistan. Theory met reality and reality wasn't like the books and powerpoints. It smelled a lot worse too and justice wasn't what decided who lived and died. War sounds awesome when you are 25. I thought it was the best thing...ever. Looking back, it was pointless and full of needless human suffering that would not have happened if we had not been there. It was not just for the literal truckloads of dead people that are still dead, no matter how much pretty paper we wrap our involvement in. War and just are not words that go together. Not in reality. Justice and truth are the first real casualties of war. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the tangible negative result for American citizens, if Russia takes Ukraine? Hunter Biden and associates can’t launder millions in bribes? Seriously. How does it affect the guy working at the local McDonalds? It doesn’t. That’s not pro Russia…it’s literally America First. Well, it wouldn't have ended with Ukraine for one. Two, personally, I am totally okay with providing weapons and training to a country that is quite literally at risk of being genocided. It doesn't effect the guy at mcdonald's, but it doesn't have to in order to justify some level of help. Apply that standard globally. Wanna go visit Rwanda? Maybe we should step in when Ethiopia and Eretria go at it again? How about the CAR and the never ending purges...it's a literal genocide. What's the difference now? Why now and not then? Maybe we can add Tibet and what the Chinese did/are doing there? Wanna go toe to toe with the Chinese? You can't claim an ethical standard and then selectively apply it. We let genocide happen regularly and do nothing...so why are we all fired up about this one? Could there be other reasons...gee...what else happens in that specific country... A civil war within a country in africa is a lot different than an unjustified invasion in Europe. Not an apples to apples comparison. Further, Rwandan forces never had their eyes on neighbors, and never threatened dropping nukes on everyone if they didn't get their way. Don't get me wrong, it's a tragedy, but it's not the same scenario. What else is in Ukraine? Please be specific and provide sources. Ukraine is a corrupt quasi oligarchy that laundered money for US political groups and foreign powers. It is one of the most corrupt places on earth. This has not changed from then to now. Not once, has anyone in this thread identified a US National Interest in us fighting Russia for Ukraine. My standard is as stated above- Tell the guy working at McDonalds, why US tax money and manpower should go to Ukraine and not to anywhere else on the planet including domestic spending. Explain how that guy's taxes should be spent in Ukraine and exactly what will happen to him if we don't do it. Nothing...his life will not change by us staying home. We can feel bad about someone's country being invaded without that meaning we have to jump into the middle of the conflict. Ukraine democratically elected their leaders, and in fact the last time someone tried to prove what you said they actually ended up accidentally proving that it was Zelenskey's opposition that was the particularly corrupt party. Oops. I notice that you provided no sources, nor can you explain why them being corrupt means they waive the right to self defense. We are corrupt as well. I never said manpower should go to Ukraine or that we should "jump in the middle of it". But providing weapons and training is good to go. Your standard is weird. Yeah, the US democratically elected someone too...keep believing that. You want to get your war boner wet. Go get some. Stop pretending it is moral or justified and do it on your own time, not by proxy of US taxpayers and armed forces. There are no good guys in this fight. None. Stop trying to make it look like a john wayne movie and accept the reality that is is just two corrupt states fighting one another. PS. Nations don't have morality. They have national interests and what is best for their own citizens...is their national interest. There is zero upside for the US to be involved here...none. I am still in, and I have no intention of going to fight. I also have no problem in helping UKR to defend themselves. Stop pretending like I'm advocating we go to war. I'm not. In fact, doing what we're doing now helps to ensure Russia cannot invade another country and thus triggering article 5. This is one of the biggest upsides for us. Ensuring Russia has zero ability to trigger art 5. See, you can't think just one step ahead, you have to think of the unintended consequences of action and inaction. Your PS is wrong. When a nation unjustifiably invades, condones murder, pillage and rape and deliberately targets civilians that is immoral. I'm surprised this has to be said. Russia is very clearly the bad guy here, even a significant amount of Russians understand this. Ukraine is about as "good" as a country can be concerning this war. LOL, "Unjust" according to whom? We...as in the US Military...knowingly and intentionally firebombed entire cities full of civilians and we did it on purpose, multiple times. There is no morality in war. None. Morality is the illusion sold to simpletons who want a good vs evil feeling to justify the horrible things that are done as if it gives the deaths purpose and allows the people to not have to answer hard questions about how horrible their actions truly were. It is imbecilic to moralize war. It has no morality. It has winners and losers. All else is just to feel better about doing what you did to win. Unjust according to anyone with any sense, including many Russians who are dumbfounded that an American would say something as ridiculous as you just said. You clearly missed your PME, I'm saddened that we have such uneducated people in our ranks. I cannot believe that you never studied Just War Theory. Ignoring morality in war is for simpletons who are too scared to assign morality to actions. You are hilariously wrong, and need to educate yourself. Here's a primer. https://iep.utm.edu/justwar/ I had that class. Then I went to Iraq...twice. Same with Afghanistan. Theory met reality and reality wasn't like the books and powerpoints. It smelled a lot worse too and justice wasn't what decided who lived and died. War sounds awesome when you are 25. I thought it was the best thing...ever. Looking back, it was pointless and full of needless human suffering that would not have happened if we had not been there. It was not just for the literal truckloads of dead people that are still dead, no matter how much pretty paper we wrap our involvement in. War and just are not words that go together. Not in reality. Justice and truth are the first real casualties of war. You're arguing circularly now. Just war posits that war is terrible, but not the worst thing there is. Russia started this war and is causing that needless suffering that we have witnessed. Russia did that. They were unjust in doing so. Ukraine is just in defending themselves against this aggression. This isn't a powerpoint, this is real life where an aggressor nation unjustly invaded, and another nation is justly defending themselves. War is terrible, and you're giving the aggressor in this war a day pass because you refuse to call it what it is- an unjust invasion. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:15:52 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who said russia is just in their actions? I haven't seen anyone say Russia is just for attacking a sovereign nation. I said it is not an American problem and that we have serious problems at home and in nations where we have a true national interest. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't need others to believe a certain way to validate my own positions... but I am relieved to see FedDC taking the Russian apologist position. I can't remember anything I've agreed with him on. Since when is "not my issue, stay home and fix actual American problems first"...being a russian apologist. List one place where I said russia is good or right? You can't. If you can't justify this war to a guy mowing grass for grocery money...you can't justify it...and you can't. It doesn't improve his life one bit. It doesn't improve his situation in life at all...it makes it worse. That guy is an actual American and he should be the focus of American governmental aid and support...not a corrupt foreign power. If that's your definition of "pro russia"...you are simply wrong. When you say Russia is just in their actions and compare their actions to the US then you are a Russian apologist, don't sugar coat it. Be brave and own your opinion if you're going to do it. Don't hide behind it now. Who said russia is just in their actions? I haven't seen anyone say Russia is just for attacking a sovereign nation. I said it is not an American problem and that we have serious problems at home and in nations where we have a true national interest. An expansionist dictator who hates us and has a history of screwing us expanding his industrial base by annexing his neighbors isn’t an American problem? I respectfully disagree. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:16:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had that class. Then I went to Iraq...twice. Same with Afghanistan. Theory met reality and reality wasn't like the books and powerpoints. It smelled a lot worse too and justice wasn't what decided who lived and died. War sounds awesome when you are 25. I thought it was the best thing...ever. Looking back, it was pointless and full of needless human suffering that would not have happened if we had not been there. It was not just for the literal truckloads of dead people that are still dead, no matter how much pretty paper we wrap our involvement in. War and just are not words that go together. Not in reality. Justice and truth are the first real casualties of war. Don’t forget nuance, that dies too. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:17:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who said russia is just in their actions? I haven't seen anyone say Russia is just for attacking a sovereign nation. I said it is not an American problem and that we have serious problems at home and in nations where we have a true national interest. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't need others to believe a certain way to validate my own positions... but I am relieved to see FedDC taking the Russian apologist position. I can't remember anything I've agreed with him on. Since when is "not my issue, stay home and fix actual American problems first"...being a russian apologist. List one place where I said russia is good or right? You can't. If you can't justify this war to a guy mowing grass for grocery money...you can't justify it...and you can't. It doesn't improve his life one bit. It doesn't improve his situation in life at all...it makes it worse. That guy is an actual American and he should be the focus of American governmental aid and support...not a corrupt foreign power. If that's your definition of "pro russia"...you are simply wrong. When you say Russia is just in their actions and compare their actions to the US then you are a Russian apologist, don't sugar coat it. Be brave and own your opinion if you're going to do it. Don't hide behind it now. Who said russia is just in their actions? I haven't seen anyone say Russia is just for attacking a sovereign nation. I said it is not an American problem and that we have serious problems at home and in nations where we have a true national interest. You said they are NOT unjust in their actions. If they are not unjust, then they are just. If you're trying to make this some kind of moral equivalency then you're not going to be successful. Russia started this for no good reason. All the suffering that WE BOTH hate was cause by ONE SIDE. It's very clear cut. It's one of the most clear cut cases ever. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:17:48 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Morality was avoided to create this mess. The policy makers that fostered all of this claim that you and I are the ones possessed with demagoguery. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Unjust according to anyone with any sense, including many Russians who are dumbfounded that an American would say something as ridiculous as you just said. You clearly missed your PME, I'm saddened that we have such uneducated people in our ranks. I cannot believe that you never studied Just War Theory. Ignoring morality in war is for simpletons who are too scared to assign morality to actions. You are hilariously wrong, and need to educate yourself. Here's a primer. https://iep.utm.edu/justwar/ Morality was avoided to create this mess. The policy makers that fostered all of this claim that you and I are the ones possessed with demagoguery. Words strung together that sound smart but aren't. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:23:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: An expansionist dictator who hates us and has a history of screwing us expanding his industrial base by annexing his neighbors isn’t an American problem? I respectfully disagree. Ever look at Azov Movement’s political goals? They’re expansionist too. They want a giant ethno-nationalist Intermarium state between the two seas that is free from Russian, Western European and US influence. They want their own trade pact within that union too and they are actively recruiting supporters inside those nations to meet that end. Even though it’s kinda Nazi, maybe it’ll work. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:24:44 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, "Unjust" according to whom? We...as in the US Military...knowingly and intentionally firebombed entire cities full of civilians and we did it on purpose, multiple times. There is no morality in war. None. Morality is the illusion sold to simpletons who want a good vs evil feeling to justify the horrible things that are done as if it gives the deaths purpose and allows the people to not have to answer hard questions about how horrible their actions truly were. It is imbecilic to moralize war. It has no morality. It has winners and losers. All else is just to feel better about doing what you did to win. Bullshit. There's a big difference between inevitable deaths in pursuit of military advantage and raping babies/blasting bystanders for kicks. If you can't tell the difference you're morally blind. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:26:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Words strung together that sound smart but aren't. I’ll simplify it for you, it’s not moral to bait state enemies by putting another foreign nation on the hook. Brzezinski, however, thought it was genius. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:27:43 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ever look at Azov Movement’s political goals? They’re expansionist too. They want an giant ethno-nationalist Intermarium state between the two seas that is free from Russian, Western European and US influence. They want their own trade pact within that union too smd they are active recruiting supporters inside those nations, yo meet that end. Even though it’s kinda Nazi, maybe it’ll work. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: An expansionist dictator who hates us and has a history of screwing us expanding his industrial base by annexing his neighbors isn’t an American problem? I respectfully disagree. Ever look at Azov Movement’s political goals? They’re expansionist too. They want an giant ethno-nationalist Intermarium state between the two seas that is free from Russian, Western European and US influence. They want their own trade pact within that union too smd they are active recruiting supporters inside those nations, yo meet that end. Even though it’s kinda Nazi, maybe it’ll work. Oh they're running Ukraine? |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:30:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You said they are NOT unjust in their actions. If they are not unjust, then they are just. If you're trying to make this some kind of moral equivalency then you're not going to be successful. Russia started this for no good reason. All the suffering that WE BOTH hate was cause by ONE SIDE. It's very clear cut. It's one of the most clear cut cases ever. lol, sometimes I think FedDC is just Dave_A's new account or something. He used to pull that kind of circular gnat hair splitting all the time. "I never said they were justified in what they were doing! I just said it wasn't unjustified and what about IRAQ!?" |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:30:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ll simplify it for you, it’s not moral to bait state enemies by putting another foreign nation on the hook. Brzezinski, however, thought it was genius. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Words strung together that sound smart but aren't. I’ll simplify it for you, it’s not moral to bait state enemies by putting another foreign nation on the hook. Brzezinski, however, thought it was genius. lmao, this is the weakest argument yet. It's all our fault for "baiting them" into an invasion. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:31:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol, sometimes I think FedDC is just Dave_A's new account or something. He used to pull that kind of circular gnat hair splitting all the time. "I never said they were justified in what they were doing! I just said it wasn't unjustified and what about IRAQ!?" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You said they are NOT unjust in their actions. If they are not unjust, then they are just. If you're trying to make this some kind of moral equivalency then you're not going to be successful. Russia started this for no good reason. All the suffering that WE BOTH hate was cause by ONE SIDE. It's very clear cut. It's one of the most clear cut cases ever. lol, sometimes I think FedDC is just Dave_A's new account or something. He used to pull that kind of circular gnat hair splitting all the time. "I never said they were justified in what they were doing! I just said it wasn't unjustified and what about IRAQ!?" Makes you wonder actually doesn't it.... |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:35:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryCincinnatus: If someone insisted that we "stop worrying about China" -what would you think of that person and their intentions? If someone insisted that we "stop worrying about the Border" -what would you think of that person and their intentions? If someone insisted that we "stop worrying about Russia" -what would you think of that person and their intentions? Keeping in mind, that "worrying about" these issues/threats is not a mutually exclusive exercise. Yeremyahu: Blah blah blah. You raise issues with your rhetoric that you have absolutely no concern about but know will confound normal people. Cincinnatus: I raise issues (questions, actually) that I know you will never answer. Your non-answer then proves my point. Quote HistoryCincinnatus: If someone insisted that we "stop worrying about China" -what would you think of that person and their intentions? If someone insisted that we "stop worrying about the Border" -what would you think of that person and their intentions? If someone insisted that we "stop worrying about Russia" -what would you think of that person and their intentions? Keeping in mind, that "worrying about" these issues/threats is not a mutually exclusive exercise. Yeremyahu: Blah blah blah. You raise issues with your rhetoric that you have absolutely no concern about but know will confound normal people. Cincinnatus: I raise issues (questions, actually) that I know you will never answer. Your non-answer then proves my point.  post 36 on page 19 - but you won't talk about how the ruling class caused all these issues that you want Americans to worry about. Muh Russia, Muh China - get a grip. Cincinnatus: Russia did not "step in to prevent Syria from being overrun." They stepped in to secure access to a warm water port. Cincinnatus: They merely pretended to conduct counter-terrorism operations. They were as clumsy and stupid THERE as they are in Ukraine. lol lmao |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:37:41 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well hell, we ought to just let Russia do whatever they want then I guess right  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 17 pages of some guy screaming to join his cause of the US getting involved in a war between two corrupt countries. And if you don't, you are a Russian sympathizer.  My fellow conservatives are gonna conserve the fuck out of this next 20 year war! And if you don't fly the Ukraine flag on Tik Tok and Facebook you might as well be killing helpless Europeans. These are both terrible strawmen arguments. And yet they are historically accurate. Name the last conflict the US got into and out of in just a couple of years and it turned out better because of our involvement. War is a money-making giant money laundering opportunity for politicians. Well hell, we ought to just let Russia do whatever they want then I guess right To the corrupt country of Ukraine? sure. Not our problem, let Europe handle it, and the passionate have been invited to come, as you say "Kill the Russian bear" by joining the Ukraine legion. https://legionofukraine.com/ |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:41:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To the corrupt country of Ukraine? sure. Not our problem, let Europe handle it, and the passionate have been invited to come, as you say "Kill the Russian bear" by joining the Ukraine legion. https://legionofukraine.com/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 17 pages of some guy screaming to join his cause of the US getting involved in a war between two corrupt countries. And if you don't, you are a Russian sympathizer. My fellow conservatives are gonna conserve the fuck out of this next 20 year war! And if you don't fly the Ukraine flag on Tik Tok and Facebook you might as well be killing helpless Europeans. These are both terrible strawmen arguments. And yet they are historically accurate. Name the last conflict the US got into and out of in just a couple of years and it turned out better because of our involvement. War is a money-making giant money laundering opportunity for politicians. Well hell, we ought to just let Russia do whatever they want then I guess right To the corrupt country of Ukraine? sure. Not our problem, let Europe handle it, and the passionate have been invited to come, as you say "Kill the Russian bear" by joining the Ukraine legion. https://legionofukraine.com/ We've been over all these idiotic arguments, to include why it's in our interest to help stop Russia now, and why you're insistence on us joining the legion is the weakest straw man ever constructed. It's irrelevant, and frankly stupid. Of all the arguments presented so far, this is absolutely the most nonsensical one. You can believe in supporting UKR with weapons without wanting ANY American boots on the deck. This isn't a difficult concept for most people. If you feel strongly about the southern border, why don't you head down there and do something about it? |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:45:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I guess it's not that important to you then is it. By "important" you mean I have to commit felony's in order to prove I think our federal immigration laws should be enforced? I think hunting illegal aliens on the southern border would be frowned upon by the Biden administration and his AG. But you can certainly join the legion in Ukraine and "Fight the Russian bear" with no legal consequences. Since you haven't, I guess it's just not that important to you as your multiple posts and ranting might lead someone to believe. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:46:47 PM EDT
[#41]
We built these weapons to kill Russians and now they can kill Russians and we don’t even have to do the needful ourselves. Some guy is going to do it for us and thank us. This has a bow on it.
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:47:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: By "important" you mean I have to commit felony's in order to prove I think our federal immigration laws should be enforced? I think hunting illegal aliens on the southern border would be frowned upon by the Biden administration and his AG. But you can certainly join the legion in Ukraine and "Fight the Russian bear" with no legal consequences. Since you haven't, I guess it's just not that important to you as your multiple posts and ranting might lead someone to believe. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well I guess it's not that important to you then is it. By "important" you mean I have to commit felony's in order to prove I think our federal immigration laws should be enforced? I think hunting illegal aliens on the southern border would be frowned upon by the Biden administration and his AG. But you can certainly join the legion in Ukraine and "Fight the Russian bear" with no legal consequences. Since you haven't, I guess it's just not that important to you as your multiple posts and ranting might lead someone to believe. Interesting, so you give yourself a pass because you don't want to do jail time- even though it's important to you. But somehow me not risking my life means the Ukraine isn't important to me? Death is a bigger consequence than a felony, wouldn't you say? You're going to have to show your work on that one bro, or maybe just admit it's a stupid argument. If I was advocating to send in US troops you might have a point, but I'm not, so you don't. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:51:16 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unjust according to anyone with any sense, including many Russians who are dumbfounded that an American would say something as ridiculous as you just said. You clearly missed your PME, I'm saddened that we have such uneducated people in our ranks. I cannot believe that you never studied Just War Theory. Ignoring morality in war is for simpletons who are too scared to assign morality to actions. You are hilariously wrong, and need to educate yourself. Here's a primer. https://iep.utm.edu/justwar/ I read your Just War Theory. Biggest load of moralizing crap I've ever read, written by "academics" whose knowledge of war is less than zero. FedDC is absolutely right. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:56:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read your Just War Theory. Biggest load of moralizing crap I've ever read, written by "academics" whose knowledge of war is less than zero. FedDC is absolutely right. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Unjust according to anyone with any sense, including many Russians who are dumbfounded that an American would say something as ridiculous as you just said. You clearly missed your PME, I'm saddened that we have such uneducated people in our ranks. I cannot believe that you never studied Just War Theory. Ignoring morality in war is for simpletons who are too scared to assign morality to actions. You are hilariously wrong, and need to educate yourself. Here's a primer. https://iep.utm.edu/justwar/ I read your Just War Theory. Biggest load of moralizing crap I've ever read, written by "academics" whose knowledge of war is less than zero. FedDC is absolutely right. It's not my theory, and it's important- you just don't understand why. If more people internalized this theory it would have prevented the US from getting wrapped up in shit we shouldn't have been wrapped up in. You think that's moralizing crap? If you can't see that Russia is morally wrong in this invasion, and Ukraine is morally just in their defense then I can't help you. It's quite literally self defense from a violent aggressor on a national scale. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 5:57:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Otto dog what’s your address?
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Posted: 4/20/2022 6:02:27 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know...it is possible for America to simply not jump into the middle of every war...we do have an option C...stay home...fix our domestic issues...stop jumping into wars we can't afford and won't win... Why do you assume it is a binary choice? It's not. Fix our domestic issues. It's a shame that 1811s aren't doing that rather than making things worse. 
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Posted: 4/20/2022 6:03:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, "Unjust" according to whom? We...as in the US Military...knowingly and intentionally firebombed entire cities full of civilians and we did it on purpose, multiple times. There is no morality in war. None. Morality is the illusion sold to simpletons who want a good vs evil feeling to justify the horrible things that are done as if it gives the deaths purpose and allows the people to not have to answer hard questions about how horrible their actions truly were. It is imbecilic to moralize war. It has no morality. It has winners and losers. All else is just to feel better about doing what you did to win. Thomas Aquinas is a good start. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 6:10:40 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You wanna go full war boner on every country that has child sex crimes? We're gonna need a bigger boat. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What is the tangible negative result for American citizens, if Russia takes Ukraine? Hunter Biden and associates can’t launder millions in bribes? Seriously. How does it affect the guy working at the local McDonalds? It doesn’t. That’s not pro Russia…it’s literally America First. Well, it wouldn't have ended with Ukraine for one. Two, personally, I am totally okay with providing weapons and training to a country that is quite literally at risk of being genocided. It doesn't effect the guy at mcdonald's, but it doesn't have to in order to justify some level of help. Apply that standard globally. Wanna go visit Rwanda? Maybe we should step in when Ethiopia and Eretria go at it again? How about the CAR and the never ending purges...it's a literal genocide. What's the difference now? Why now and not then? Maybe we can add Tibet and what the Chinese did/are doing there? Wanna go toe to toe with the Chinese? You can't claim an ethical standard and then selectively apply it. We let genocide happen regularly and do nothing...so why are we all fired up about this one? Could there be other reasons...gee...what else happens in that specific country... A civil war within a country in africa is a lot different than an unjustified invasion in Europe. Not an apples to apples comparison. Further, Rwandan forces never had their eyes on neighbors, and never threatened dropping nukes on everyone if they didn't get their way. Don't get me wrong, it's a tragedy, but it's not the same scenario. What else is in Ukraine? Please be specific and provide sources. Ukraine is a corrupt quasi oligarchy that laundered money for US political groups and foreign powers. It is one of the most corrupt places on earth. This has not changed from then to now. Not once, has anyone in this thread identified a US National Interest in us fighting Russia for Ukraine. My standard is as stated above- Tell the guy working at McDonalds, why US tax money and manpower should go to Ukraine and not to anywhere else on the planet including domestic spending. Explain how that guy's taxes should be spent in Ukraine and exactly what will happen to him if we don't do it. Nothing...his life will not change by us staying home. We can feel bad about someone's country being invaded without that meaning we have to jump into the middle of the conflict. Ukraine democratically elected their leaders, and in fact the last time someone tried to prove what you said they actually ended up accidentally proving that it was Zelenskey's opposition that was the particularly corrupt party. Oops. I notice that you provided no sources, nor can you explain why them being corrupt means they waive the right to self defense. We are corrupt as well. I never said manpower should go to Ukraine or that we should "jump in the middle of it". But providing weapons and training is good to go. Your standard is weird. Yeah, the US democratically elected someone too...keep believing that. You want to get your war boner wet. Go get some. Stop pretending it is moral or justified and do it on your own time, not by proxy of US taxpayers and armed forces. There are no good guys in this fight. None. Stop trying to make it look like a john wayne movie and accept the reality that is is just two corrupt states fighting one another. PS. Nations don't have morality. They have national interests and what is best for their own citizens...is their national interest. There is zero upside for the US to be involved here...none. Usually, the country that commits genocide (and baby raping) ends up being the "bad guy" in the story. You wanna go full war boner on every country that has child sex crimes? We're gonna need a bigger boat. Nope. Just establishing a metric to help determine which party are the “bad guys” |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 6:10:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ever look at Azov Movement’s political goals? They’re expansionist too. They want an giant ethno-nationalist Intermarium state between the two seas that is free from Russian, Western European and US influence. They want their own trade pact within that union too smd they are active recruiting supporters inside those nations, yo meet that end. Even though it’s kinda Nazi, maybe it’ll work. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: An expansionist dictator who hates us and has a history of screwing us expanding his industrial base by annexing his neighbors isn’t an American problem? I respectfully disagree. Ever look at Azov Movement’s political goals? They’re expansionist too. They want an giant ethno-nationalist Intermarium state between the two seas that is free from Russian, Western European and US influence. They want their own trade pact within that union too smd they are active recruiting supporters inside those nations, yo meet that end. Even though it’s kinda Nazi, maybe it’ll work. When the Azovs invade Belorus or something, it will mean something. Hell, they can’t even get their way in Ukraine when Russia isn’t invading, so it’s hardly relevant anyway. In the real world, Russia is trying to annex Ukraine right now. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 6:11:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Plenty of people are rooting for Ukraine. Hell, I root for them, but that doesn't mean I want our involvement to grow. We've hit the limit of what I'm willing to do for them. The point is that I see plenty of people who don't like Ukraine, or don't like us getting involved. I don't see many openly rooting for Russia. There's very few of those. I see tons more people in this thread that conflate not rooting for Ukraine, or not wanting to be involved, or not liking either country as "rooting for Russia." That's garbage. Personally, I think that any of those 3 are perfectly reasonable. It's not our fight. They don't have to give a damn, and there's very little reason that the normal American should really give a damn. Some are way too wrapped up in this. This. |
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