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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:01:06 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My post was about questioning sources. The questions of whether or not it is a good idea for a country to outlaw political parties that are in league with the country that is invading you and whether or not it is a good idea for a country to take control of its media when its territory is being overrun by an enemy army are questions of strategy and policy. Nobody is doubting Zelensky did those things, the discussion is whether or not they are justified actions. I believe that they are and there is never been any hypocrisy in my belief that countries must take extraordinary measures when they are being invaded by enemy armies. You don't have a choice to "fight fair" when the existence of your nation is hanging in the balance. All I'm reading here is that you support government crushing dissent, at least provided you agree with it. This is not at all compatible with any liberty-based philosophy. I guess that also tells us a lot about who you really are. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:09:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a lot of non sequitur to justify ignoring that the people that you are talking about haven't once cited MSM as a source. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought about who touches the information. In RT's case, since it belongs to the Russian state, any information will pass by a censor's desk at some point, if not multiple times, between someone writing it and it being published. In the satellite imagery case, who touched that data between the photos/videos were taken and then they reached the intended audience? So, I think we are all talking about chain of custody. And, because of that, "regular dudes on the street" have to swallow any bs that's spit on them? Gee, wouldn't it be nice if there were mechanisms by which to validate information without relying on official sources? Definitely. And that's what we are discussing here. And just because sometimes there's no agreement about the information credibility, it does not mean that is it "Russian talking points" as some try to imply. If it's RT, it's literally Russian talking points. Dancing around it or glossing over that fact doesn't make it go away. You have been told a 100% truth that this is the most well documented conflict in history and you are making an active choice to ignore a wealth of high confidence OSINT work in favor of headlines that line up with what you choose to believe. If you go back, no one is questioning that RT is the Russian side, or propaganda. What is being questioned is the information presented to the American public, which also comes from very questionable sources. Therefore, as OP suggested, using RT to help figuring out where the truth really is might not be a bad idea. I haven't gone to that website yet but might take a look. The truth will be hidden somewhere between what the MSM and its cohorts have been vomiting and what Russia and China have been spitting. The difficult part is filtering the useful stuff from the trash. You are crafting a strawman from a false dichotomy that the only sources of information available are MSM and whatever its positional antithesis might be. You should not do that. I used "MSM and cohorts" as a general descriptive. I agree there are many more sources in between the two extremes. The big problem is how to find them. Even in this very website it is not easy to figure out what is real and what is not, mostly when there's a group hellbent on painting anyone and anything that do not flow with "free Ukraine!" narrative as "Russian propaganda". I read a couple posts talking about threads that try to impartially discuss what's going on using intelligence and military expertise. Where are they? Some that were started to discuss the backstage of that war were quickly trashed by that nonsensical discussion. Those threads aren't anywhere you can get at them because the torrent of idiocy in GD drove them elsewhere where there are better noise filters and better contributors. GD should probably take a break to ponder that dynamic. So, that leaves only GD, which will keep doing its "GD thing" to discuss this, since the filtered threads aren't accessible to everyone. And, for the obvious reasons, the discussions will keep going all over template. What makes me curious is why some members, usually the same ones, tend to show up in the threads that try to discuss the whys and other issues that do not go with the official "free Ukraine!" narrative and trash them with "Russian propaganda", "Putin lovers", etc. and nothing useful to contribute. That males those members no different than those fanatical leftists and just show a desperation to hide the actual truth. Let alone that their credibility is already trashed. However, for me, the worst part is that all this only diverts the attention from much worse things happening at home and if they are not fixed ASAP the US will go the same way of Ukraine, if not worse. This may come as something of a shock, but people might actually get trashed with "Russian propaganda" when they are echoing actual Russian talking points. What is "Russian propaganda"? Suddenly, the media, politicians, and even some once-reputable government agencies that lie through their teeth are telling the truth (i.e. "free Ukraine!" narrative). I once even got a member telling me that "soros was doing a good thing now by going against Putin". So, can I say that "Putin is doing a good thing for going against soros"? The latter is currently a much bigger problem for the US than the first, as well as several of the US politicians backing Ukraine. Furthermore, a many people once criticizing and censoring others because of "Russian collusion" ended-up exposed as the ones doing it. I suspect you may be overthinking the problem if you are struggling with a definition of Russian propaganda. Just want to set expectations and terms & definitions since it appears that anything that goes against the "free Ukraine!" narrative is labeled as "Russian propaganda".  Roland's response notwithstanding, your continued use of "free Ukraine! narrative" is pointedly dismissive. We're using the term "Russian propaganda" in a literal sense in that people are, deliberately or otherwise, taking stances and repeating talking points that directly align with Russian statements or interests. This is a very vague and broad definition. Using the same metrics, one can also say that the "free Ukraine!" narrative uses MSM and typical leftist talking points, which are also based in lies as the Russian's. Furthermore, as I also compared before, if aligning with the gang (e.g. soros, hillary, pedo Joe, etc.) that is promoting the invasion in the US' southern border is OK because it's "convenient" ("enemy of my enemy..."), then one can use the same argument that Russia is an ally by convenience, since it's against that gang (assuming it really is - jury still out). After all, the southern border invasion is a much more pressing issue for the Americans. However, I do not agree with partnerships with the devil. And I also do not see anyone here defending Putin or Russia. Therefore, if, by coincidence, it matches some "Russian talking points", it just shows that the "free Ukraine!" talking points being questioned are bs and do not hold water to a point that a simple "Russian talking point" easily challenges them. Sun Tzu is a real thing and ignoring or censoring opposing views usually lead to bad results. The Russian's Keystone Cops performance in this war, if really happening, could have been caused by Putin only keeping "yes men" on his side, which is typical of autocrats. That's a lot of non sequitur to justify ignoring that the people that you are talking about haven't once cited MSM as a source. You probably missed the folks quoting CNN, WaPo and alike. Even read a post saying that "this time the MSM was telling the truth" while others were defending soros. So, there's that. And it's not "non-sequitur", unless you want to focus on the tree and not the forest. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:12:42 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All I'm reading here is that you support government crushing dissent, at least provided you agree with it. This is not at all compatible with any liberty-based philosophy. I guess that also tells us a lot about who you really are. Was it wrong for the US to close German and Japanese affiliated groups during the Second World War? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:16:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All I'm reading here is that you support government crushing dissent, at least provided you agree with it. This is not at all compatible with any liberty-based philosophy. I guess that also tells us a lot about who you really are. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My post was about questioning sources. The questions of whether or not it is a good idea for a country to outlaw political parties that are in league with the country that is invading you and whether or not it is a good idea for a country to take control of its media when its territory is being overrun by an enemy army are questions of strategy and policy. Nobody is doubting Zelensky did those things, the discussion is whether or not they are justified actions. I believe that they are and there is never been any hypocrisy in my belief that countries must take extraordinary measures when they are being invaded by enemy armies. You don't have a choice to "fight fair" when the existence of your nation is hanging in the balance. All I'm reading here is that you support government crushing dissent, at least provided you agree with it. This is not at all compatible with any liberty-based philosophy. I guess that also tells us a lot about who you really are. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:16:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Zelensky's entire reason for being president was fighting corruption. One of his first actions as president was gutting the Ukrainian version of the Department of Justice and replacing the corrupt prosecutors that were not investigating corruption. Another huge part of his efforts has been exposing the level of Russian government influence and interference within Ukraine, which is another reason why Russia chose to invade. He was costing them both power and money. Had the Russians not started banging the war drum last year and shifting his focus substantially, I'm sure that he would have made even more progress. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Because its ridiculously stupid for the leader of one country to try and meddle in the internal legal affairs of another sovereign country, particularly when you are using blackmail to do it. You are essentially asking the leader of that other country to cede part of their sovereignty to the United States in exchange for military aid that is largely designed to help the donor country. Had he done what Trump would have requested, he would have been attacked as an American puppet. Yet, Zelensky does not seem to mind that Ukraine has been widely used as a money laundry machine. Did he take any measures to stop it? It also appears that the "investigation" got similar results as the congressional hearings in DC. Also, despite the US' politicians' kids getting bribes from Russia does not seem to categorize as "Russian collusion", eh? Quoted: Trump wanted an investigation reopened after it was concluded. Zelenskyy apparently isn't a puppet and said it was closed. It appears that Zelensky isn't Trump's puppet. About not being a puppet is a different story. It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:24:50 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're being deliberately obtuse. The source is quoting Zelensky. It's not an unsubstantiated claim that has been denied. It's taken directly from his words. I've been talking about evidence rather than sources. The media occasionally gets things right when they report facts - in this case, they're simply quoting Zelensky. It's when they report WITHOUT evidence that I take issue. I mean, going back to 2016, every time the media in this country has more or less said "trust me bro, it was Russia" it turns out it was in fact not the Russians but the American and global left/fascist plutocracy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Red herring ETA- also fascinating you choose to believe this source. You guys have been giving us a raft of shit for believing the MSM (which isn't even what we're doing) then you come in here with a link to the MSM. The irony. The only person to link the MSM here is YOU. You're being deliberately obtuse. The source is quoting Zelensky. It's not an unsubstantiated claim that has been denied. It's taken directly from his words. I've been talking about evidence rather than sources. The media occasionally gets things right when they report facts - in this case, they're simply quoting Zelensky. It's when they report WITHOUT evidence that I take issue. I mean, going back to 2016, every time the media in this country has more or less said "trust me bro, it was Russia" it turns out it was in fact not the Russians but the American and global left/fascist plutocracy. Interesting. So a MSM link with a quote is acceptable, but a variety of sources to include eye witness statements, and all the other shit I'm not going to type AGAIN is suspect. You keep bringing it back to the media- none of us are talking about the media, and none of us have EVER suggested accepting a statements without evidence. Why do you keep constructing these strawmen? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:25:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All I'm reading here is that you support government crushing dissent, at least provided you agree with it. This is not at all compatible with any liberty-based philosophy. I guess that also tells us a lot about who you really are. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My post was about questioning sources. The questions of whether or not it is a good idea for a country to outlaw political parties that are in league with the country that is invading you and whether or not it is a good idea for a country to take control of its media when its territory is being overrun by an enemy army are questions of strategy and policy. Nobody is doubting Zelensky did those things, the discussion is whether or not they are justified actions. I believe that they are and there is never been any hypocrisy in my belief that countries must take extraordinary measures when they are being invaded by enemy armies. You don't have a choice to "fight fair" when the existence of your nation is hanging in the balance. All I'm reading here is that you support government crushing dissent, at least provided you agree with it. This is not at all compatible with any liberty-based philosophy. I guess that also tells us a lot about who you really are. The Ukrainian government is banning Russian state media, this is not unheard of in time of war and even if you want to argue it's bad it still totally irrelevant to the larger situation. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:26:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You probably missed the folks quoting CNN, WaPo and alike. Even read a post saying that "this time the MSM was telling the truth" while others were defending soros. So, there's that. And it's not "non-sequitur", unless you want to focus on the tree and not the forest. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought about who touches the information. In RT's case, since it belongs to the Russian state, any information will pass by a censor's desk at some point, if not multiple times, between someone writing it and it being published. In the satellite imagery case, who touched that data between the photos/videos were taken and then they reached the intended audience? So, I think we are all talking about chain of custody. And, because of that, "regular dudes on the street" have to swallow any bs that's spit on them? Gee, wouldn't it be nice if there were mechanisms by which to validate information without relying on official sources? Definitely. And that's what we are discussing here. And just because sometimes there's no agreement about the information credibility, it does not mean that is it "Russian talking points" as some try to imply. If it's RT, it's literally Russian talking points. Dancing around it or glossing over that fact doesn't make it go away. You have been told a 100% truth that this is the most well documented conflict in history and you are making an active choice to ignore a wealth of high confidence OSINT work in favor of headlines that line up with what you choose to believe. If you go back, no one is questioning that RT is the Russian side, or propaganda. What is being questioned is the information presented to the American public, which also comes from very questionable sources. Therefore, as OP suggested, using RT to help figuring out where the truth really is might not be a bad idea. I haven't gone to that website yet but might take a look. The truth will be hidden somewhere between what the MSM and its cohorts have been vomiting and what Russia and China have been spitting. The difficult part is filtering the useful stuff from the trash. You are crafting a strawman from a false dichotomy that the only sources of information available are MSM and whatever its positional antithesis might be. You should not do that. I used "MSM and cohorts" as a general descriptive. I agree there are many more sources in between the two extremes. The big problem is how to find them. Even in this very website it is not easy to figure out what is real and what is not, mostly when there's a group hellbent on painting anyone and anything that do not flow with "free Ukraine!" narrative as "Russian propaganda". I read a couple posts talking about threads that try to impartially discuss what's going on using intelligence and military expertise. Where are they? Some that were started to discuss the backstage of that war were quickly trashed by that nonsensical discussion. Those threads aren't anywhere you can get at them because the torrent of idiocy in GD drove them elsewhere where there are better noise filters and better contributors. GD should probably take a break to ponder that dynamic. So, that leaves only GD, which will keep doing its "GD thing" to discuss this, since the filtered threads aren't accessible to everyone. And, for the obvious reasons, the discussions will keep going all over template. What makes me curious is why some members, usually the same ones, tend to show up in the threads that try to discuss the whys and other issues that do not go with the official "free Ukraine!" narrative and trash them with "Russian propaganda", "Putin lovers", etc. and nothing useful to contribute. That males those members no different than those fanatical leftists and just show a desperation to hide the actual truth. Let alone that their credibility is already trashed. However, for me, the worst part is that all this only diverts the attention from much worse things happening at home and if they are not fixed ASAP the US will go the same way of Ukraine, if not worse. This may come as something of a shock, but people might actually get trashed with "Russian propaganda" when they are echoing actual Russian talking points. What is "Russian propaganda"? Suddenly, the media, politicians, and even some once-reputable government agencies that lie through their teeth are telling the truth (i.e. "free Ukraine!" narrative). I once even got a member telling me that "soros was doing a good thing now by going against Putin". So, can I say that "Putin is doing a good thing for going against soros"? The latter is currently a much bigger problem for the US than the first, as well as several of the US politicians backing Ukraine. Furthermore, a many people once criticizing and censoring others because of "Russian collusion" ended-up exposed as the ones doing it. I suspect you may be overthinking the problem if you are struggling with a definition of Russian propaganda. Just want to set expectations and terms & definitions since it appears that anything that goes against the "free Ukraine!" narrative is labeled as "Russian propaganda". Roland's response notwithstanding, your continued use of "free Ukraine! narrative" is pointedly dismissive. We're using the term "Russian propaganda" in a literal sense in that people are, deliberately or otherwise, taking stances and repeating talking points that directly align with Russian statements or interests. This is a very vague and broad definition. Using the same metrics, one can also say that the "free Ukraine!" narrative uses MSM and typical leftist talking points, which are also based in lies as the Russian's. Furthermore, as I also compared before, if aligning with the gang (e.g. soros, hillary, pedo Joe, etc.) that is promoting the invasion in the US' southern border is OK because it's "convenient" ("enemy of my enemy..."), then one can use the same argument that Russia is an ally by convenience, since it's against that gang (assuming it really is - jury still out). After all, the southern border invasion is a much more pressing issue for the Americans. However, I do not agree with partnerships with the devil. And I also do not see anyone here defending Putin or Russia. Therefore, if, by coincidence, it matches some "Russian talking points", it just shows that the "free Ukraine!" talking points being questioned are bs and do not hold water to a point that a simple "Russian talking point" easily challenges them. Sun Tzu is a real thing and ignoring or censoring opposing views usually lead to bad results. The Russian's Keystone Cops performance in this war, if really happening, could have been caused by Putin only keeping "yes men" on his side, which is typical of autocrats. That's a lot of non sequitur to justify ignoring that the people that you are talking about haven't once cited MSM as a source. You probably missed the folks quoting CNN, WaPo and alike. Even read a post saying that "this time the MSM was telling the truth" while others were defending soros. So, there's that. And it's not "non-sequitur", unless you want to focus on the tree and not the forest. As I said in another thread, critical thinking is at an all time low. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:28:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Because its ridiculously stupid for the leader of one country to try and meddle in the internal legal affairs of another sovereign country, particularly when you are using blackmail to do it. You are essentially asking the leader of that other country to cede part of their sovereignty to the United States in exchange for military aid that is largely designed to help the donor country. Had he done what Trump would have requested, he would have been attacked as an American puppet. Yet, Zelensky does not seem to mind that Ukraine has been widely used as a money laundry machine. Did he take any measures to stop it? It also appears that the "investigation" got similar results as the congressional hearings in DC. Also, despite the US' politicians' kids getting bribes from Russia does not seem to categorize as "Russian collusion", eh? Quoted: Trump wanted an investigation reopened after it was concluded. Zelenskyy apparently isn't a puppet and said it was closed. It appears that Zelensky isn't Trump's puppet. About not being a puppet is a different story. It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. You heard them say that? You were there? You speak Ukrainian? You know that "new world order" even if translated correctly means the same thing to a Ukrainian as it does to you? I know you're ignoring me because you can't argue against my points, but I want everyone to see how clueless you are. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:31:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would theorize that: 1. If it's true that Zelensky purged the government Justice agencies (who else purged government agencies cough cough Obama and Biden), and 2. If it's true that Zelensky was installed via an "Orange Revolution" that was the product of millions of dollars of personnel and financial investments in that election by George Soros, the Obama Admin/Clinton's State Department, then 3. Zelensky's purging of the government was probably NOT in reality "going after corruption" as stated by Theodoric (who is also a known parrot of leftist talking points in general - but we'll ignore that), but rather, protecting it after the fact. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Zelensky's entire reason for being president was fighting corruption. One of his first actions as president was gutting the Ukrainian version of the Department of Justice and replacing the corrupt prosecutors that were not investigating corruption. Another huge part of his efforts has been exposing the level of Russian government influence and interference within Ukraine, which is another reason why Russia chose to invade. He was costing them both power and money. Had the Russians not started banging the war drum last year and shifting his focus substantially, I'm sure that he would have made even more progress. https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1011528/zelensky-nationalizes-tv-news-and-restricts-opposition-parties A real paragon of virtue, that one. I would theorize that: 1. If it's true that Zelensky purged the government Justice agencies (who else purged government agencies cough cough Obama and Biden), and 2. If it's true that Zelensky was installed via an "Orange Revolution" that was the product of millions of dollars of personnel and financial investments in that election by George Soros, the Obama Admin/Clinton's State Department, then 3. Zelensky's purging of the government was probably NOT in reality "going after corruption" as stated by Theodoric (who is also a known parrot of leftist talking points in general - but we'll ignore that), but rather, protecting it after the fact. The parallels are quite intriguing, isn't it? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:32:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The parallels are quite intriguing, isn't it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Zelensky's entire reason for being president was fighting corruption. One of his first actions as president was gutting the Ukrainian version of the Department of Justice and replacing the corrupt prosecutors that were not investigating corruption. Another huge part of his efforts has been exposing the level of Russian government influence and interference within Ukraine, which is another reason why Russia chose to invade. He was costing them both power and money. Had the Russians not started banging the war drum last year and shifting his focus substantially, I'm sure that he would have made even more progress. https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1011528/zelensky-nationalizes-tv-news-and-restricts-opposition-parties A real paragon of virtue, that one. I would theorize that: 1. If it's true that Zelensky purged the government Justice agencies (who else purged government agencies cough cough Obama and Biden), and 2. If it's true that Zelensky was installed via an "Orange Revolution" that was the product of millions of dollars of personnel and financial investments in that election by George Soros, the Obama Admin/Clinton's State Department, then 3. Zelensky's purging of the government was probably NOT in reality "going after corruption" as stated by Theodoric (who is also a known parrot of leftist talking points in general - but we'll ignore that), but rather, protecting it after the fact. The parallels are quite intriguing, isn't it? What's intriguing is you guys will theorize all this with no evidence while ignoring the facts on the ground in Ukraine. It's fascinating how people can be so self unaware. None of this even matters to the topic at hand. Even if it's all true it doesn't justify the invasion and Russian war crimes. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:33:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Because its ridiculously stupid for the leader of one country to try and meddle in the internal legal affairs of another sovereign country, particularly when you are using blackmail to do it. You are essentially asking the leader of that other country to cede part of their sovereignty to the United States in exchange for military aid that is largely designed to help the donor country. Had he done what Trump would have requested, he would have been attacked as an American puppet. Yet, Zelensky does not seem to mind that Ukraine has been widely used as a money laundry machine. Did he take any measures to stop it? It also appears that the "investigation" got similar results as the congressional hearings in DC. Also, despite the US' politicians' kids getting bribes from Russia does not seem to categorize as "Russian collusion", eh? Quoted: Trump wanted an investigation reopened after it was concluded. Zelenskyy apparently isn't a puppet and said it was closed. It appears that Zelensky isn't Trump's puppet. About not being a puppet is a different story. It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:33:44 PM EDT
[#13]
The region has been absolutely blanketed with on the ground eyes and ears, and EW and sigint resources.
If you want to believe the Russian story that it was a Ukrainian rocket that landed in the bus station today, you have to eliminate all sources of information on the planet other than the Russian Ministry of Defense.  https://www.rt.com/russia/553533-kramatorsk-missile-strike-origin/ |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:36:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. Donald Trump would have fired the swamp if he could, why are you against that? 2. The Orange Revolution was in 2004-2005. In 2014 there was a “Revolution of Dignity” where the Russian puppet shot a bunch of protesters than fled to exile in Russia. There were disputes about the legitimacy of his election in the first place. There was an election then in 2014 and in 2019 Zelenskyy was elected. US involvement in the 2014 revolution appears to have been holding seminars for protesters on how to organize and delivering cookies to a protest. 3. More likely it was, corruption was pretty much his main focus. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would theorize that: 1. If it's true that Zelensky purged the government Justice agencies (who else purged government agencies cough cough Obama and Biden), and 2. If it's true that Zelensky was installed via an "Orange Revolution" that was the product of millions of dollars of personnel and financial investments in that election by George Soros, the Obama Admin/Clinton's State Department, then 3. Zelensky's purging of the government was probably NOT in reality "going after corruption" as stated by Theodoric (who is also a known parrot of leftist talking points in general - but we'll ignore that), but rather, protecting it after the fact. 1. Donald Trump would have fired the swamp if he could, why are you against that? 2. The Orange Revolution was in 2004-2005. In 2014 there was a “Revolution of Dignity” where the Russian puppet shot a bunch of protesters than fled to exile in Russia. There were disputes about the legitimacy of his election in the first place. There was an election then in 2014 and in 2019 Zelenskyy was elected. US involvement in the 2014 revolution appears to have been holding seminars for protesters on how to organize and delivering cookies to a protest. 3. More likely it was, corruption was pretty much his main focus. 1. Yet, he did not even fire the one he could (and should, if he was serious). 2. Seeing how "elections" work under those people (the ones here wholeheartedly defending Ukraine), we can imagine how "elections" work over there, mostly when funded by the people (who happen to be the same who "won" the 2020 "elections"). 3. We also see how the government purges work here (vaccine mandates one of the latest tools). |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:44:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was it wrong for the US to close German and Japanese affiliated groups during the Second World War? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All I'm reading here is that you support government crushing dissent, at least provided you agree with it. This is not at all compatible with any liberty-based philosophy. I guess that also tells us a lot about who you really are. Was it wrong for the US to close German and Japanese affiliated groups during the Second World War? Indiscriminately? Yes. How many were dissidents? If today the US government shuts down all Russian and Chinese-affiliated groups would it be right? In the end, a lot those acts are for show to calm down the sheeple's "fears", like the TSA. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:46:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't live in a fantasy world where I believe that governments shouldn't do everything that they can possibly do during an invasion to prevent being destroyed by an enemy. It's fairly ludicrous to believe that someone should allow opposition parties that are proxies of the aggressor country that is killing your citizens and occupying your country to continue to exist in the midst of total war. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: My post was about questioning sources. The questions of whether or not it is a good idea for a country to outlaw political parties that are in league with the country that is invading you and whether or not it is a good idea for a country to take control of its media when its territory is being overrun by an enemy army are questions of strategy and policy. Nobody is doubting Zelensky did those things, the discussion is whether or not they are justified actions. I believe that they are and there is never been any hypocrisy in my belief that countries must take extraordinary measures when they are being invaded by enemy armies. You don't have a choice to "fight fair" when the existence of your nation is hanging in the balance. All I'm reading here is that you support government crushing dissent, at least provided you agree with it. This is not at all compatible with any liberty-based philosophy. I guess that also tells us a lot about who you really are. What about when it's the country's government promoting the invasion that will ultimately destroy it? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:50:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will take that as "the discussion is over" since we went from talking about things that are actually happening in Ukraine to the latest, greatest generic conspiracy talking point. You aren't changing my mind, and I'm not changing yours. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Because its ridiculously stupid for the leader of one country to try and meddle in the internal legal affairs of another sovereign country, particularly when you are using blackmail to do it. You are essentially asking the leader of that other country to cede part of their sovereignty to the United States in exchange for military aid that is largely designed to help the donor country. Had he done what Trump would have requested, he would have been attacked as an American puppet. Yet, Zelensky does not seem to mind that Ukraine has been widely used as a money laundry machine. Did he take any measures to stop it? It also appears that the "investigation" got similar results as the congressional hearings in DC. Also, despite the US' politicians' kids getting bribes from Russia does not seem to categorize as "Russian collusion", eh? Quoted: Trump wanted an investigation reopened after it was concluded. Zelenskyy apparently isn't a puppet and said it was closed. It appears that Zelensky isn't Trump's puppet. About not being a puppet is a different story. It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. Like I said before, if we want to properly assess the situation there, we need to watch the forest, not one tree. All pointers are indicating that. I agree it's a hypothesis, but the evidence show a high probability of being true. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:57:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. Yet, he did not even fire the one he could (and should, if he was serious). 2. Seeing how "elections" work under those people (the ones here wholeheartedly defending Ukraine), we can imagine how "elections" work over there, mostly when funded by the people (who happen to be the same who "won" the 2020 "elections"). 3. We also see how the government purges work here (vaccine mandates one of the latest tools). You went from him being installed in a coup to simply doubting his blowout election results. Well played. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:58:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Indiscriminately? Yes. How many were dissidents? If today the US government shuts down all Russian and Chinese-affiliated groups would it be right? In the end, a lot those acts are for show to calm down the sheeple's "fears", like the TSA. Russian forces are on the ground with the stated aim of causing your nation to cease to exist and you want the people they pay to help them win to continue their employment? Interesting. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:59:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You went from him being installed in a coup to simply doubting his blowout election results. Well played. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 1. Yet, he did not even fire the one he could (and should, if he was serious). 2. Seeing how "elections" work under those people (the ones here wholeheartedly defending Ukraine), we can imagine how "elections" work over there, mostly when funded by the people (who happen to be the same who "won" the 2020 "elections"). 3. We also see how the government purges work here (vaccine mandates one of the latest tools). You went from him being installed in a coup to simply doubting his blowout election results. Well played. After seeing how it works in 2020, aren't they the same? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 12:59:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. When Europeans say new world order they mean the Pax Americana and an international order based on rules. It’s the world that the US created jn 1945. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:01:43 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After seeing how it works in 2020, aren't they the same? Zelenskyy go what, 73% of the vote? Biden only needed to steal .5% to win. You’re in lala lane and we need you to come back to planet earth. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:02:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After seeing how it works in 2020, aren't they the same? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1. Yet, he did not even fire the one he could (and should, if he was serious). 2. Seeing how "elections" work under those people (the ones here wholeheartedly defending Ukraine), we can imagine how "elections" work over there, mostly when funded by the people (who happen to be the same who "won" the 2020 "elections"). 3. We also see how the government purges work here (vaccine mandates one of the latest tools). You went from him being installed in a coup to simply doubting his blowout election results. Well played. After seeing how it works in 2020, aren't they the same? Yes, they are if we make up new definitions of words. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:04:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When Europeans say new world order they mean the Pax Americana and an international order based on rules. It’s the world that the US created jn 1945. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. When Europeans say new world order they mean the Pax Americana and an international order based on rules. It’s the world that the US created jn 1945. I knew the second I saw that clip that it was going to cause an uproar with the smoothbrains. Somehow they believe that, even though they weren't there and don't speak Ukrainian....but they refuse to believe Russia is committing war crimes. It makes me embarrassed to be associated with them. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:07:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russian forces are on the ground with the stated aim of causing your nation to cease to exist and you want the people they pay to help them win to continue their employment? Interesting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Indiscriminately? Yes. How many were dissidents? If today the US government shuts down all Russian and Chinese-affiliated groups would it be right? In the end, a lot those acts are for show to calm down the sheeple's "fears", like the TSA. Russian forces are on the ground with the stated aim of causing your nation to cease to exist and you want the people they pay to help them win to continue their employment? Interesting. Can you truly tell who is who? How many "Americans" with no blood relations to Chinese and Russian receive money from those countries to do things that go from sedition to treason? How many Chinese and Russians came here because they were sick and tired of their countries' governments and would do anything to oppose them? Yet, they are discriminated because of their ancestry? Transpose this to Ukraine and they could be doing the same mistakes. A Ukrainian friend of mine moved with his family to Poland because he was sick and tired of Ukraine's never-ending corruption. If one day Poland and Ukraine go at odds, would it be fair to put him and his family in a camp? If you were a government trying to undermine an enemy state, would you use obvious resources? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:10:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When Europeans say new world order they mean the Pax Americana and an international order based on rules. It’s the world that the US created jn 1945. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. When Europeans say new world order they mean the Pax Americana and an international order based on rules. It’s the world that the US created jn 1945. One wonders who wants to set those rules. The EU itself isn't a role model with its bureaucrats running things over there. We had several threads in this very forum discussing that. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:13:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Zelenskyy go what, 73% of the vote? Biden only needed to steal .5% to win. You’re in lala lane and we need you to come back to planet earth. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: After seeing how it works in 2020, aren't they the same? Zelenskyy go what, 73% of the vote? Biden only needed to steal .5% to win. You’re in lala lane and we need you to come back to planet earth. "Rocket man" gets 100%. It's just a matter of who "counts" the votes. The guy who taught them that was their "neighbor". In a country plagued by corruption (3rd in the world?), do you believe in election results? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:22:00 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One wonders who wants to set those rules. The EU itself isn't a role model with its bureaucrats running things over there. We had several threads in this very forum discussing that. You wonder. People who pay attention know. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:28:01 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you truly tell who is who? How many "Americans" with no blood relations to Chinese and Russian receive money from those countries to do things that go from sedition to treason? How many Chinese and Russians came here because they were sick and tired of their countries' governments and would do anything to oppose them? Yet, they are discriminated because of their ancestry? Transpose this to Ukraine and they could be doing the same mistakes. A Ukrainian friend of mine moved with his family to Poland because he was sick and tired of Ukraine's never-ending corruption. If one day Poland and Ukraine go at odds, would it be fair to put him and his family in a camp? If you were a government trying to undermine an enemy state, would you use obvious resources? Either gaslighting or ignorance. This is t about charities or fraternal organizations this is about news companies, political parties and pressure groups which are funded and directed by a foreign company. In the US that’s a crime even in peacetime let alone war. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:29:00 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Rocket man" gets 100%. It's just a matter of who "counts" the votes. The guy who taught them that was their "neighbor". In a country plagued by corruption (3rd in the world?), do you believe in election results? Ukraine is the third most corrupt in Europe. Russia is the first. Worldwide the disparity increases. In some rankings Ukraine is less corrupt than Mexico. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:37:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ukraine is the third most corrupt in Europe. Russia is the first. Worldwide the disparity increases. In some rankings Ukraine is less corrupt than Mexico. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: "Rocket man" gets 100%. It's just a matter of who "counts" the votes. The guy who taught them that was their "neighbor". In a country plagued by corruption (3rd in the world?), do you believe in election results? Ukraine is the third most corrupt in Europe. Russia is the first. Worldwide the disparity increases. In some rankings Ukraine is less corrupt than Mexico. The whole conversation is a giant red herring anyway. It's irrelevant as to figuring out what's going on there, and justifies nothing. Reverse the situation- Russia is most corrupt, lets fantasize for a moment that they were just as corrupt as they are but NOT belligerent. In no way would it be justified to invade Russia just for being corrupt. It's all irrelevant, they're trying to slide the conversation to one they can win, because they can't debate the merits of the original argument. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 1:59:36 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: RT is Russian state media. If you're a fan of Russia + Putin and looking to confirm your priors, look no further. If you actually want to learn what's happening in the world, read something boring and unbiased like The Economist, The Atlantic, or Foreign Affairs. That RT piece about Bucha is an absolute joke. Ukraine cannot stage a massacre like that. Bodies days or weeks old left to rot in the streets. Videos of Russian soldiers and vehicles killing people. Have you seen the photo of the naked, shot dead little girl heaped on top of the rest of her family? That's a fun one. How about the mother that tried to bury her daughter in her yard after she opened her front gate thinking Ukrainan solders had liberated the town, only to be shot by Russians? Must be fake too. All just a giant psych op, intricately orchestrated by Ukranians, despite the hours of footage, thousands of photos, hundreds of dead bodies, all before Ukranian regulars even got close to the town. (Removed, CoC-6~guns762) Were you there or something? Do you know somebody who was there and who witnessed what you are describing? OR Are you viewing photographs of war and reading the descriptions of the photos--descriptions that you have absolutely NO IDEA if they are true or false? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:05:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Were you there or something? Do you know somebody who was there and who witnessed what you are describing? OR Are you viewing photographs of war and reading the descriptions of the photos--descriptions that you have absolutely NO IDEA if they are true or false? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: RT is Russian state media. If you're a fan of Russia + Putin and looking to confirm your priors, look no further. If you actually want to learn what's happening in the world, read something boring and unbiased like The Economist, The Atlantic, or Foreign Affairs. That RT piece about Bucha is an absolute joke. Ukraine cannot stage a massacre like that. Bodies days or weeks old left to rot in the streets. Videos of Russian soldiers and vehicles killing people. Have you seen the photo of the naked, shot dead little girl heaped on top of the rest of her family? That's a fun one. How about the mother that tried to bury her daughter in her yard after she opened her front gate thinking Ukrainan solders had liberated the town, only to be shot by Russians? Must be fake too. All just a giant psych op, intricately orchestrated by Ukranians, despite the hours of footage, thousands of photos, hundreds of dead bodies, all before Ukranian regulars even got close to the town. (Removed, CoC-6~guns762) Were you there or something? Do you know somebody who was there and who witnessed what you are describing? OR Are you viewing photographs of war and reading the descriptions of the photos--descriptions that you have absolutely NO IDEA if they are true or false? Jesus fucking Christ. Read the whole thread. It's way more than just pictures. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:18:22 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Red herring ETA- also fascinating you choose to believe this source. You guys have been giving us a raft of shit for believing the MSM (which isn't even what we're doing) then you come in here with a link to the MSM. The irony. The only person to link the MSM here is YOU. Pseudointellectualism.... hard to believe you are still in here carrying on as you are after 3 days... really not sure what you think. the continuous circular arguments are tiring. mature people who are independent thinkers are not going to abandon their own faculties of critical thinking and assessment, and all a sudden allow afcom OSintBros to start dictating what they should believe and think. maybe that works in the closed military sub-forum, idk one can only guess your motivations and agendas. the inflated sense of self-importance coming out of your camp is cringeworthy |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:23:11 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You probably missed the folks quoting CNN, WaPo and alike. Even read a post saying that "this time the MSM was telling the truth" while others were defending soros. So, there's that. And it's not "non-sequitur", unless you want to focus on the tree and not the forest. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I thought about who touches the information. In RT's case, since it belongs to the Russian state, any information will pass by a censor's desk at some point, if not multiple times, between someone writing it and it being published. In the satellite imagery case, who touched that data between the photos/videos were taken and then they reached the intended audience? So, I think we are all talking about chain of custody. And, because of that, "regular dudes on the street" have to swallow any bs that's spit on them? Gee, wouldn't it be nice if there were mechanisms by which to validate information without relying on official sources? Definitely. And that's what we are discussing here. And just because sometimes there's no agreement about the information credibility, it does not mean that is it "Russian talking points" as some try to imply. If it's RT, it's literally Russian talking points. Dancing around it or glossing over that fact doesn't make it go away. You have been told a 100% truth that this is the most well documented conflict in history and you are making an active choice to ignore a wealth of high confidence OSINT work in favor of headlines that line up with what you choose to believe. If you go back, no one is questioning that RT is the Russian side, or propaganda. What is being questioned is the information presented to the American public, which also comes from very questionable sources. Therefore, as OP suggested, using RT to help figuring out where the truth really is might not be a bad idea. I haven't gone to that website yet but might take a look. The truth will be hidden somewhere between what the MSM and its cohorts have been vomiting and what Russia and China have been spitting. The difficult part is filtering the useful stuff from the trash. You are crafting a strawman from a false dichotomy that the only sources of information available are MSM and whatever its positional antithesis might be. You should not do that. I used "MSM and cohorts" as a general descriptive. I agree there are many more sources in between the two extremes. The big problem is how to find them. Even in this very website it is not easy to figure out what is real and what is not, mostly when there's a group hellbent on painting anyone and anything that do not flow with "free Ukraine!" narrative as "Russian propaganda". I read a couple posts talking about threads that try to impartially discuss what's going on using intelligence and military expertise. Where are they? Some that were started to discuss the backstage of that war were quickly trashed by that nonsensical discussion. Those threads aren't anywhere you can get at them because the torrent of idiocy in GD drove them elsewhere where there are better noise filters and better contributors. GD should probably take a break to ponder that dynamic. So, that leaves only GD, which will keep doing its "GD thing" to discuss this, since the filtered threads aren't accessible to everyone. And, for the obvious reasons, the discussions will keep going all over template. What makes me curious is why some members, usually the same ones, tend to show up in the threads that try to discuss the whys and other issues that do not go with the official "free Ukraine!" narrative and trash them with "Russian propaganda", "Putin lovers", etc. and nothing useful to contribute. That males those members no different than those fanatical leftists and just show a desperation to hide the actual truth. Let alone that their credibility is already trashed. However, for me, the worst part is that all this only diverts the attention from much worse things happening at home and if they are not fixed ASAP the US will go the same way of Ukraine, if not worse. This may come as something of a shock, but people might actually get trashed with "Russian propaganda" when they are echoing actual Russian talking points. What is "Russian propaganda"? Suddenly, the media, politicians, and even some once-reputable government agencies that lie through their teeth are telling the truth (i.e. "free Ukraine!" narrative). I once even got a member telling me that "soros was doing a good thing now by going against Putin". So, can I say that "Putin is doing a good thing for going against soros"? The latter is currently a much bigger problem for the US than the first, as well as several of the US politicians backing Ukraine. Furthermore, a many people once criticizing and censoring others because of "Russian collusion" ended-up exposed as the ones doing it. I suspect you may be overthinking the problem if you are struggling with a definition of Russian propaganda. Just want to set expectations and terms & definitions since it appears that anything that goes against the "free Ukraine!" narrative is labeled as "Russian propaganda". Roland's response notwithstanding, your continued use of "free Ukraine! narrative" is pointedly dismissive. We're using the term "Russian propaganda" in a literal sense in that people are, deliberately or otherwise, taking stances and repeating talking points that directly align with Russian statements or interests. This is a very vague and broad definition. Using the same metrics, one can also say that the "free Ukraine!" narrative uses MSM and typical leftist talking points, which are also based in lies as the Russian's. Furthermore, as I also compared before, if aligning with the gang (e.g. soros, hillary, pedo Joe, etc.) that is promoting the invasion in the US' southern border is OK because it's "convenient" ("enemy of my enemy..."), then one can use the same argument that Russia is an ally by convenience, since it's against that gang (assuming it really is - jury still out). After all, the southern border invasion is a much more pressing issue for the Americans. However, I do not agree with partnerships with the devil. And I also do not see anyone here defending Putin or Russia. Therefore, if, by coincidence, it matches some "Russian talking points", it just shows that the "free Ukraine!" talking points being questioned are bs and do not hold water to a point that a simple "Russian talking point" easily challenges them. Sun Tzu is a real thing and ignoring or censoring opposing views usually lead to bad results. The Russian's Keystone Cops performance in this war, if really happening, could have been caused by Putin only keeping "yes men" on his side, which is typical of autocrats. That's a lot of non sequitur to justify ignoring that the people that you are talking about haven't once cited MSM as a source. You probably missed the folks quoting CNN, WaPo and alike. Even read a post saying that "this time the MSM was telling the truth" while others were defending soros. So, there's that. And it's not "non-sequitur", unless you want to focus on the tree and not the forest. Put the goalposts down. This entire line of discussion is dragging on because you have taken great pains to be overly dismissive of the work of multiple, independent sources of data and analysis which are corroborated by multiple other individuals working in independent official channels which often arrive at the same conclusions well in advance of public notice through media channels. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:24:30 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: hard to believe you are still in here carrying on as you are after 3 days... really not sure what you think. the continuous circular arguments are tiring. mature people who are independent thinkers are not going to abandon their own faculties of critical thinking and assessment, and all a sudden allow afcom OSintBros to start dictating what they should believe and think. maybe that works in the closed military sub-forum, idk one can only guess your motivations and agendas. the inflated sense of self-importance coming out of your camp is cringeworthy Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Red herring ETA- also fascinating you choose to believe this source. You guys have been giving us a raft of shit for believing the MSM (which isn't even what we're doing) then you come in here with a link to the MSM. The irony. The only person to link the MSM here is YOU. Pseudointellectualism.... hard to believe you are still in here carrying on as you are after 3 days... really not sure what you think. the continuous circular arguments are tiring. mature people who are independent thinkers are not going to abandon their own faculties of critical thinking and assessment, and all a sudden allow afcom OSintBros to start dictating what they should believe and think. maybe that works in the closed military sub-forum, idk one can only guess your motivations and agendas. the inflated sense of self-importance coming out of your camp is cringeworthy It's not surprising AT ALL, that YOU are still here after 3 days, and simultaneously talking shit to me for also being here. Once again the irony is totally lost on you. It's pretty obvious what I think, I've told you many times but I'm also unsurprised you didn't pay attention or don't grasp it. I'm one of these crazy guys that looks at the entirety of the information available, and then if possible, makes a determination about what's going on. Note, you can't always come to a conclusion, but often you can. Bucha is one of those examples when we can know pretty confidently what happened. You deny this...oh wait, then you admit it... You want to talk about circular arguments, this coming from the guy who said you can't believe ANYTHING then 5 pages later said "oh well, OBVIOUSLY Russians are doing that, we don't really even need any proof of it". Tell me about my circular arguments now. I always want to sharpen up my debate skills. Be specific. The pseudointellectualism coming from your camp is what's cringeworthy. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:26:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not surprising AT ALL, that YOU are still here after 3 days, and simultaneously talking shit to me for also being here. Once again the irony is totally lost on you. It's pretty obvious what I think, I've told you many times but I'm also unsurprised you didn't pay attention or don't grasp it. I'm one of these crazy guys that looks at the entirety of the information available, and then if possible, makes a determination about what's going on. Note, you can't always come to a conclusion, but often you can. Bucha is one of those examples when we can know pretty confidently what happened. You deny this...oh wait, then you admit it... You want to talk about circular arguments, this coming from the guy who said you can't believe ANYTHING then 5 pages later said "oh well, OBVIOUSLY Russians are doing that, we don't really even need any proof of it". Tell me about my circular arguments now. I always want to sharpen up my debate skills. Be specific. The pseudointellectualism coming from your camp is what's cringeworthy. do you ever have any original thoughts? |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:27:33 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: hard to believe you are still in here carrying on as you are after 3 days... really not sure what you think. the continuous circular arguments are tiring. mature people who are independent thinkers are not going to abandon their own faculties of critical thinking and assessment, and all a sudden allow afcom OSintBros to start dictating what they should believe and think. maybe that works in the closed military sub-forum, idk one can only guess your motivations and agendas. the inflated sense of self-importance coming out of your camp is cringeworthy If the last several years on this site have proven anything at all, it's that "independent thinkers" more often than not are anything but. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:27:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: hard to believe you are still in here carrying on as you are after 3 days... really not sure what you think. the continuous circular arguments are tiring. mature people who are independent thinkers are not going to abandon their own faculties of critical thinking and assessment, and all a sudden allow afcom OSintBros to start dictating what they should believe and think. maybe that works in the closed military sub-forum, idk one can only guess your motivations and agendas. the inflated sense of self-importance coming out of your camp is cringeworthy Those mature, independent geniuses you’re talking about watch videos of people sobbing about their loved ones being raped and murdered and then say “maybe they are crisis actors!” |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:28:21 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the last several years on this site have proven anything at all, it's that "independent thinkers" more often than not are anything but. someone must have cried out for his backup |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:38:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: someone must have cried out for his backup Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If the last several years on this site have proven anything at all, it's that "independent thinkers" more often than not are anything but. someone must have cried out for his backup He doesn't need backup. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:39:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: do you ever have any original thoughts? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's not surprising AT ALL, that YOU are still here after 3 days, and simultaneously talking shit to me for also being here. Once again the irony is totally lost on you. It's pretty obvious what I think, I've told you many times but I'm also unsurprised you didn't pay attention or don't grasp it. I'm one of these crazy guys that looks at the entirety of the information available, and then if possible, makes a determination about what's going on. Note, you can't always come to a conclusion, but often you can. Bucha is one of those examples when we can know pretty confidently what happened. You deny this...oh wait, then you admit it... You want to talk about circular arguments, this coming from the guy who said you can't believe ANYTHING then 5 pages later said "oh well, OBVIOUSLY Russians are doing that, we don't really even need any proof of it". Tell me about my circular arguments now. I always want to sharpen up my debate skills. Be specific. The pseudointellectualism coming from your camp is what's cringeworthy. do you ever have any original thoughts? THAT'S your response? 
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:41:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: someone must have cried out for his backup Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If the last several years on this site have proven anything at all, it's that "independent thinkers" more often than not are anything but. someone must have cried out for his backup You have made a complete fool of yourself, and I have helped. I don't need any help...hell, I barely have to try. You literally don't even have an argument. All you do is say "muh twitter" and try to poke holes in my arguments by saying they're circular without demonstrating how. Seriously, you're not smart enough for me to need help to embarrass. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:53:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's intriguing is you guys will theorize all this with no evidence while ignoring the facts on the ground in Ukraine. It's fascinating how people can be so self unaware. None of this even matters to the topic at hand. Even if it's all true it doesn't justify the invasion and Russian war crimes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Zelensky's entire reason for being president was fighting corruption. One of his first actions as president was gutting the Ukrainian version of the Department of Justice and replacing the corrupt prosecutors that were not investigating corruption. Another huge part of his efforts has been exposing the level of Russian government influence and interference within Ukraine, which is another reason why Russia chose to invade. He was costing them both power and money. Had the Russians not started banging the war drum last year and shifting his focus substantially, I'm sure that he would have made even more progress. https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1011528/zelensky-nationalizes-tv-news-and-restricts-opposition-parties A real paragon of virtue, that one. I would theorize that: 1. If it's true that Zelensky purged the government Justice agencies (who else purged government agencies cough cough Obama and Biden), and 2. If it's true that Zelensky was installed via an "Orange Revolution" that was the product of millions of dollars of personnel and financial investments in that election by George Soros, the Obama Admin/Clinton's State Department, then 3. Zelensky's purging of the government was probably NOT in reality "going after corruption" as stated by Theodoric (who is also a known parrot of leftist talking points in general - but we'll ignore that), but rather, protecting it after the fact. The parallels are quite intriguing, isn't it? What's intriguing is you guys will theorize all this with no evidence while ignoring the facts on the ground in Ukraine. It's fascinating how people can be so self unaware. None of this even matters to the topic at hand. Even if it's all true it doesn't justify the invasion and Russian war crimes. You are trying to make this about simple citizens being killed, which is a tragedy, and trying to shove aside the larger moral quandary at work here. Let me put this as simply as I can. The idea of leveling a country because it's government is an illegitimate puppet installed by massive corruption by your political enemies doesn't set off any "oh noes we must stops that" with me. And I am not OK with what it's doing to the people of Ukraine, they are as much just along for the ride with Zelensky as we are with Joe and the Ho. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 2:56:52 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Jesus fucking Christ. Read the whole thread. It's way more than just pictures. That's so stupid. The person made that statement at the beginning. "Read the whole thread"????   Seriously?? I've jumped to the last few pages, and the only thing I see is people arguing, calling names, and trying to posture themselves as intellectual giants. If I want to dig for the truth, I certainly am not going to waste my time looking in this 16 page thread |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 3:00:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are trying to make this about simple citizens being killed, which is a tragedy, and trying to shove aside the larger moral quandary at work here. Let me put this as simply as I can. The idea of leveling a country because it's government is an illegitimate puppet installed by massive corruption by your political enemies doesn't set off any "oh noes we must stops that" with me. And I am not OK with what it's doing to the people of Ukraine, they are as much just along for the ride with Zelensky as we are with Joe and the Ho. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Zelensky's entire reason for being president was fighting corruption. One of his first actions as president was gutting the Ukrainian version of the Department of Justice and replacing the corrupt prosecutors that were not investigating corruption. Another huge part of his efforts has been exposing the level of Russian government influence and interference within Ukraine, which is another reason why Russia chose to invade. He was costing them both power and money. Had the Russians not started banging the war drum last year and shifting his focus substantially, I'm sure that he would have made even more progress. https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1011528/zelensky-nationalizes-tv-news-and-restricts-opposition-parties A real paragon of virtue, that one. I would theorize that: 1. If it's true that Zelensky purged the government Justice agencies (who else purged government agencies cough cough Obama and Biden), and 2. If it's true that Zelensky was installed via an "Orange Revolution" that was the product of millions of dollars of personnel and financial investments in that election by George Soros, the Obama Admin/Clinton's State Department, then 3. Zelensky's purging of the government was probably NOT in reality "going after corruption" as stated by Theodoric (who is also a known parrot of leftist talking points in general - but we'll ignore that), but rather, protecting it after the fact. The parallels are quite intriguing, isn't it? What's intriguing is you guys will theorize all this with no evidence while ignoring the facts on the ground in Ukraine. It's fascinating how people can be so self unaware. None of this even matters to the topic at hand. Even if it's all true it doesn't justify the invasion and Russian war crimes. You are trying to make this about simple citizens being killed, which is a tragedy, and trying to shove aside the larger moral quandary at work here. Let me put this as simply as I can. The idea of leveling a country because it's government is an illegitimate puppet installed by massive corruption by your political enemies doesn't set off any "oh noes we must stops that" with me. And I am not OK with what it's doing to the people of Ukraine, they are as much just along for the ride with Zelensky as we are with Joe and the Ho. This whole thing started because of a distrust in the information out there. You believe it was a puppet government (as if that justifies an invasion) yet you have no proof of that. The one guy that DID try to prove it accidentally proved the opposite. Russia has TOLD us this is about wiping Ukraine and the Ukrainian people from the face of the planet. It's about ending the nation and the people. Not some made up issue about a puppet government- which, by the way, is exactly what Russia wants, their own puppet government. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 3:01:46 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's so stupid. The person made that statement at the beginning. "Read the whole thread"???? Seriously?? I've jumped to the last few pages, and the only thing I see is people arguing, calling names, and trying to posture themselves as intellectual giants. If I want to dig for the truth, I certainly am not going to waste my time looking in this 16 page thread Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Jesus fucking Christ. Read the whole thread. It's way more than just pictures. That's so stupid. The person made that statement at the beginning. "Read the whole thread"???? Seriously?? I've jumped to the last few pages, and the only thing I see is people arguing, calling names, and trying to posture themselves as intellectual giants. If I want to dig for the truth, I certainly am not going to waste my time looking in this 16 page thread "If I want to dig for the truth, I sure am not going to actually LOOK for it". At any rate, the point is that your "argument" has been brought up before and the fact is the evidence is not simply pictures. If you read more and talked less you would know that. But go ahead and just say "that's stupid" rather than do your due diligence. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 3:19:25 PM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 4/8/2022 3:20:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When Europeans say new world order they mean the Pax Americana and an international order based on rules. It’s the world that the US created jn 1945. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It appears that his "progress" has been towards the WEF goals and keeping Ukraine as its money laundering machine. One of Ukraine's politicians openly declared they were fighting for the New World Order. Like several others, I'm not buying that "corruption fight" speech. If anything, he only wants to switch Ukraine's puppet masters. When Europeans say new world order they mean the Pax Americana and an international order based on rules. It’s the world that the US created jn 1945. Not quite. The first part is correct. However the US version of the NWO means that the US ceases to exist as we know it, and becomes more like the EU including high as fuck taxes, no guns, and the abandonment of the concept of citizen individual "Self Determination" in favor of citizens being subjects of an Elite class who believes they are our moral and intellectual betters. Kind of like some of you on this forum. Because of this, the movement toward a "NWO" is unacceptable. |
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Posted: 4/8/2022 3:22:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Zelenskyy go what, 73% of the vote? Biden only needed to steal .5% to win. You’re in lala lane and we need you to come back to planet earth. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: After seeing how it works in 2020, aren't they the same? Zelenskyy go what, 73% of the vote? Biden only needed to steal .5% to win. You’re in lala lane and we need you to come back to planet earth. Jesus, I didn't think you were this stupid. Zelensky was elected in a majority vote simple "election". Biden had to win a handful of swing states to steal the election due to the Electoral College system we have. Two entirely different systems, two entirely difference necessities to obtain the same result. |
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