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Posted: 3/13/2022 2:42:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't forget about replacing and training the crew members This. You don't just jump in and start operating a tank without any training at all. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 2:43:23 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Missile is about 80,000 dollars. The CLU is like 175k. IIRC. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are you suggesting OP that we shouldn't take out an enemy tank with a munition that costs more than the tank? That's total failure logic right there. You are in luck though, a javelin missile costs about $175k. A T-72 is 1.2-2 million. Good bang for the buck right there. Missile is about 80,000 dollars. The CLU is like 175k. IIRC. Even better! |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 2:44:24 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am sure an AT4 probably could take out a T72 Under the right conditions it can do it, but it's far more limited than the NLAW or Jav. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 2:45:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. You don't just jump in and start operating a tank without any training at all. Well... most countries wouldn't, anyways. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 2:46:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've noticed in some pics the Russians have welded steel canopies to the tops of their tank turrets, an obvious countermeasure to Javelins. It will be interesting to see if how effective they are. there are a bunch of combat photos with destroyed tanks with those cages. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 2:48:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. You don't just jump in and start operating a tank without any training at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Don't forget about replacing and training the crew members This. You don't just jump in and start operating a tank without any training at all. I subscribe to the idea that a good tank crew is more valuable than the tank. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 2:56:35 PM EDT
[#7]
Russian 72's are primarily an export tank for them. A decent tank when you are talking one middle eastern country battling another, but not when faced with modern weapon systems.
I think that some folks do not realize that Russia never gets rid of military equipment like the U.S. They keep weapons "in case." I am sure that they have many t-54/55s, T-62's, T-72's in stock in case. Their T-64 tank while older is a pretty decent tank and some would say superior to the T-72. Russian doctrine against NATO in the event of WWIII was to send in third tier armor and units first (T-54/55's and T-62's), then second tier units (T-64's and T-72's) and then finally first tier units with the best trained and equipped soldiers. It was a process of weakening NATO with numbers and then giving NATO a knock-out punch with top units. Also feels like Russia is using 2nd and 3rd tier units in Ukraine. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 3:00:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've noticed in some pics the Russians have welded steel canopies to the tops of their tank turrets, an obvious countermeasure to Javelins. It will be interesting to see if how effective they are. The Javelin has two warheads.   https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43648/ukrainian-troops-test-javelin-missile-against-russian-cage-style-improvised-tank-armor |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 4:05:07 PM EDT
[#9]
No reactive armor than I guess .
Go Ukraine !! |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 4:16:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've noticed in some pics the Russians have welded steel canopies to the tops of their tank turrets, an obvious countermeasure to Javelins. It will be interesting to see if how effective they are. Supposedly not very. Time will tell in the end |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 4:54:51 PM EDT
[#11]
The ratio of the cost of the javelin vs the coats of the tank is pretty good.
If you don't buy the javelin, the tank fires 40 rounds of HE, kills people, sets buildings on fire, and does damage way in excess of the 80K$ or so cost of the javelin. A BMP 2 is one million dollars and can be killed by a 30K$ NLAW, but survivability is much better for the crew if you take out the tanks first. The dismounts appear to be pretty useless. So if a javelin has an .80 hit rate, and an NLAW .6 (I'm making these numbers up) It takes 14 javelins and say 65 NLAWs to take out a BTG. Thats 1.5 million$ or so to wreck 80 million in Russian armor. Its a bargain. Make your self 3 times less effective, for friction of battlefield, still pretty good. 16:1 Id say I still prefer switchblade 600s and reapers. Drone swarm is the future. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 4:59:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No reactive armor than I guess . Go Ukraine !! I doubt anyone makes reactive armor capable of preventing a kill with a Javelin, judging from the publicly available data on what it can penetrate. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 5:00:26 PM EDT
[#13]
I broke a CLU once, didnt kill anyone while doing it.
Bill me. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 5:03:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I broke a CLU once, didnt kill anyone while doing it. Bill me. Same attitude here. I fired 4 live Stingers and didn't kill anything but 3 drones and a hillside in 29 Palms. I have zero problem with the cost of giving missiles to Ukraine to kill actual Russians. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 5:27:28 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Makes me wonder how many Russian ICBMs / nukes even work, how many of the tubes on those Typhoons are even loaded, and if the PLA is similarly over-rated. The PLA has a strength that will overwhelm anything. People. They are willing to throw wave after wave after wave until they overrun a position. They have the people to spare. If they had a means to transport those people out of China and to a place where they want, they would have already done it. Until then, they will wait and let their enemies kill each other off or destroy their countries from within. In the end, China will win, they are patient. Only canned sunshine will save the world from China. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 5:32:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The PLA has a strength that will overwhelm anything. People. They are willing to throw wave after wave after wave until they overrun a position. They have the people to spare. If they had a means to transport those people out of China and to a place where they want, they would have already done it. Until then, they will wait and let their enemies kill each other off or destroy their countries from within. In the end, China will win, they are patient. Only canned sunshine will save the world from China. Its not 1950. Massed wave attacks today = a massive pile of red goo. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 5:35:54 PM EDT
[#17]
When are the Russians going to use their real tanks instead of their export tanks?
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Posted: 3/13/2022 5:39:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When are the Russians going to use their real tanks instead of their export tanks? Its been over 2 weeks. I dont buy the B team narrative. The A team ain't coming. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:06:09 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I doubt anyone makes reactive armor capable of preventing a kill with a Javelin, judging from the publicly available data on what it can penetrate. Quote HistoryQuoted: I doubt anyone makes reactive armor capable of preventing a kill with a Javelin, judging from the publicly available data on what it can penetrate. Actually Russia does have RA on their newest tanks that can defeat tandem warhead missiles like the Javelin. It appears that Russia is not using any of their latest tanks in Ukraine though. Russia is also aware of the Javelin’s capabilities—and their latest tanks feature several countermeasures intended to defeat them. New Relikt and Mechanit ERA systems feature dual layers of radar-triggered ERA plates designed to defeat tandem charge warheads. The Shtora and the newer Afganit Active Protection Systems can also deploy ‘soft kill’ multi-spectral grenades and flares designed to obscure the tank from infrared seekers or divert them to other heat sources. https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/02/javelin-why-russia-fears-this-missile-built-to-kill-tanks/ Another system that exists that can defeat tandem warheads. IBD: defeating tandem warhead with SMART-PROTech Named SMART-PROTech, the new armour is made of modules, each containing a sensor and one or two countermeasures, depending on the size, position and orientation of the module. The two countermeasures are installed one at the top facing downwards obliquely and the second at the bottom, facing upwards always obliquely, inclination being provided by the physical shape of the module; the strike face comes with an angle of around 30° from the vertical and contains a sensor. This is insensitive to small and medium calibre rounds, thus countermeasures are not triggered by those rounds that would anyway be defeated by the vehicle passive armour. The SMART-PROTech module is fitted with a lightweight protection cover, avoiding damages to the system elements by external objects. When the vehicle is hit by a tandem warhead, the effect of the precursor charge is neutralised by the passive armour; the hit triggers the activation of the appropriate countermeasure that generates a blade of energy destroying the main shaped charge before detonation, thus avoiding perforation.   https://www.edrmagazine.eu/ibd-defeating-tandem-warhead-with-smart-protech |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:08:19 PM EDT
[#20]
What's the industrial capacity of Russia? Do they have the working factories and capital to replace what they are losing?
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:10:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you really think we are going to fly one of our main battle tanks over there and let some potato farmers drive it around? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So ya I get it the javelin can kill a T72 But how about this … How much is a 40 + year old Cold War era Soviet MBT worth vs how much do these Modern Javelin missiles cost the US Tax payer ?? Plus maybe transport even ?? Follow the Money . Who really wins ?. Ps Screw Putin . How much does it cost to not take out the tank? Or the alternative of flying an Abrams over there and driving it up to the area to do the job? Javelins save money. Do you really think we are going to fly one of our main battle tanks over there and let some potato farmers drive it around? Nobody does. Hence the Javelin. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:12:18 PM EDT
[#22]
More on reactive armor that can defeat the javelin and other tandem warheads.
Now, Relikt, from what I can tell, works a little differently. In the case of Relikt, it appears that the explosive layer is instead comprised of several shaped charges. The shaped charges within the armour are built as channels, essentially forming blades of molten metal that fly out from the ERA package in combination with the top plate. These blades also appear to trigger in sequence, with the channels closest to the one damaged popping first. This delay means that, in all probability, the missiles main charge will be in position to get sliced apart before it can detonate. Shaped charge warheads are also delicate items. There’s very little actual explosive charge, with the penetration instead being dependent on how well the explosive can actually shape the molten penetrator. Slicing the main charge and it’s metallic liner into two or more sections renders it substantially less effective. This also has the benefit of being really effective against sabots, as the sabot is sliced apart, rendering it a fraction of the threat it initially posed. https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Relikt-ERA-provide-protection-against-tandem-warheads-while-Kontskt-5-doesnt-What-is-the-difference-in-function-composition |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:16:14 PM EDT
[#23]
 Javelin Live Fire Test Vs. T-72 It is an oldie but a goodie. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:37:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its not 1950. Massed wave attacks today = a massive pile of red goo. Yep. Cluster bombs and Claymoore Mines laugh at human wave tactics. This isn't 1950 anymore. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:40:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More on reactive armor that can defeat the javelin and other tandem warheads. https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-43de98409f1768efd70af94d04755256 https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Relikt-ERA-provide-protection-against-tandem-warheads-while-Kontskt-5-doesnt-What-is-the-difference-in-function-composition Except a Javelin is an EFP and not a shaped-charge. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:43:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's also the psychological effect. Imagine these Russian soldiers being told their equipment is vastly superior to anything the West has. Then you find out a column of Russian tanks and APCs was decimated by Western AT missiles. And it's not the first time. What does that do to morale? What does that do to your willingness to fight? That and the fact that these ambushes happen almost randomly. You might get smacked hard by enemy tanks but you see them coming and you shoot back and smack some of them. With Javelin crews running all over the place, you’re just driving along and Yuri’s tank behind you randomly explodes. And this happens on a regular basis. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:47:23 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Except a Javelin is an EFP and not a shaped-charge. Does not matter. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:49:00 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A tank can do a LOT of damage, the math isn't that simple. but even if it was that simple Gotta spend money to make money The Western MIC has ruined the Russian MIC sales with this Nobodies buying Ivan's wares anymore. Gonna find T-90s at Dollar General after this. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:50:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its not 1950. Massed wave attacks today = a massive pile of red goo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The PLA has a strength that will overwhelm anything. People. They are willing to throw wave after wave after wave until they overrun a position. They have the people to spare. If they had a means to transport those people out of China and to a place where they want, they would have already done it. Until then, they will wait and let their enemies kill each other off or destroy their countries from within. In the end, China will win, they are patient. Only canned sunshine will save the world from China. Its not 1950. Massed wave attacks today = a massive pile of red goo. That mass wave stuff is a really good way to lose a war fast. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:51:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does not matter. Oh yes it does! It does if the projectile forms outside of the active protection arc. It doesn't have to form right at stand-off distance like a HEAT round does and isn't bound by the same limitations. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:53:52 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOof. I knew they could take out tanks. I didn’t realize they turned them into tiny pieces 
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Posted: 3/13/2022 6:56:16 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How much does it cost Russia to replace those tanks, if they even can? How much is it worth to bleed Russia's military dry and show the world that they're a paper tiger? How much is it worth to show the world that invading neighbors is going to be expensive? I'm not a strategic expert by any stretch of the imagination, just musing. Ok. But now the world knows they are a paper tiger. And some shithole country that’s heretofore been held in check by Russian power is going to decide they no longer have to fall in line with the old order. Leading to brand new problems we haven’t even thought of yet. Unintended consequences and such. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:00:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh yes it does! It does if the projectile forms outside of the active protection arc. It doesn't have to form right at stand-off distance like a HEAT round does and isn't bound by the same limitations. Nope not if it is shot at any area covered by plates of the two systems I referred to. If hit from the top and there is no rea coverage then sure. One system has two charges (with a plate of armor between) with one igniting upon any initial hit and the second going off right after to defeat the second hit. The other system has 6 charges and when any of them is hit, the others then immediately go off in succession. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:07:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder how many Javelins we used to take out $500, rusted out, 20 year old, Toyota HiLux's carrying a couple Haji's with Ak's in Afghanistan? Either way, good kills! In this market? Find me all the $500 twenty-year-old Hiluxes you can scrounge. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:09:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am sure an AT4 probably could take out a T72 How about a carl gustav with the right ammo? |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:09:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The joy dead russians bring to the world is PRICELESS.  That is a true constant, like pi. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:10:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've noticed in some pics the Russians have welded steel canopies to the tops of their tank turrets, an obvious countermeasure to Javelins. It will be interesting to see if how effective they are. https://i0.wp.com/cms.sofrep.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/FMsQbJMXEAAnp7j.jpg?fit=1080%2C720&ssl=1&w=800  The "pagoda" was a nice try Ivan! ?? |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:12:46 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you blow up an enemies old tank, they have to replace it with a new one, it's not like there's a used tank lot waiting for them. The Russians probably have more old tanks than they have tankers to put in them. Perhaps you’ve forgotten, but white people are a part of dying cultures whose members lost the urge to breed, Adidas people in the cold muddy east are no exception. Young men are gold these days. Can’t waste them. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:14:04 PM EDT
[#39]
iy isn't about how much it is worth it is about preventing the damage it will do if uncontested
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:14:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Missile is about 80,000 dollars. The CLU is like 175k. IIRC. I was Javalin qualified. Those were the numbers told to us. The CLU is also a good stand alone observation device, so it’s a bargain at that price. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:16:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. You don't just jump in and start operating a tank without any training at all. In Russia, tank trains crew! OJT comrade, now drink to glorious Russian Army! |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:16:52 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Under the right conditions it can do it, but it's far more limited than the NLAW or Jav. Yeah, that’s a scary proposition. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:18:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Russians decided to go the javelin route as well.
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:18:27 PM EDT
[#44]
The last thing I want some young sergeant on the battlefield worried about is if his Javelin is worth more than the MBT bearing down on his position.
 When running combat systems aboard ship such math is meaningless. We literally don't know or care. We do care what the levels of our magazines and the battlegroup's magazines are for certain but if there's 18 In my defense I was left largely unsupervised.  "General quarters, general quarters all hands man your battle stations .... " |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:18:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: + Every developed friendly country wil place orders for said Javelins produced by the US defence industry. Whoever makes those could not have asked better publicity or made any better advertising. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:21:54 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I broke a CLU once, didnt kill anyone while doing it. Bill me. I have a buddy who got billed for a DAGR GPS receiver. It’s years later and you can make the veins in his head pop out with rage just be mentioning it. A CLU bill would be a motherfucker. That would be like four years of “no pay due” for a corporal. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:24:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The PLA has a strength that will overwhelm anything. People. They are willing to throw wave after wave after wave until they overrun a position. They have the people to spare. If they had a means to transport those people out of China and to a place where they want, they would have already done it. Until then, they will wait and let their enemies kill each other off or destroy their countries from within. In the end, China will win, they are patient. Only canned sunshine will save the world from China. It’s not 1950 these days. The Chinese Army wants to be modern, lethal, expeditionary and operationally capable. They also have a looming demographic crisis. They ain’t sending human waves into MGs anymore. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:29:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryGuess the answer was "not very". |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:31:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: So ya I get it the javelin can kill a T72 But how about this … How much is a 40 + year old Cold War era Soviet MBT worth vs how much do these Modern Javelin missiles cost the US Tax payer ?? Plus maybe transport even ?? Follow the Money . Who really wins ?. Ps Screw Putin . Javelins have shelf lives. Most of the stuff we are giving Ukraine we would have to be throwing away anyway. |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 7:32:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russian 72's are primarily an export tank for them. A decent tank when you are talking one middle eastern country battling another, but not when faced with modern weapon systems. I think that some folks do not realize that Russia never gets rid of military equipment like the U.S. They keep weapons "in case." I am sure that they have many t-54/55s, T-62's, T-72's in stock in case. Their T-64 tank while older is a pretty decent tank and some would say superior to the T-72. Russian doctrine against NATO in the event of WWIII was to send in third tier armor and units first (T-54/55's and T-62's), then second tier units (T-64's and T-72's) and then finally first tier units with the best trained and equipped soldiers. It was a process of weakening NATO with numbers and then giving NATO a knock-out punch with top units. Also feels like Russia is using 2nd and 3rd tier units in Ukraine. They’ve had pretty much every different type tank in their inventory taken out in Ukraine with the exception of the T-12. It just seems like they have more of the T-72s than any other tank, but plenty of T-80s and T-90s have been taken out too. |
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