This will no doubt rustle some jimmies!

Already been done

1000% right, but it will take another 5 years for the casual shooting community to understand.

23 minute video to say train with whatever setup you plan to carry, shoot, compete, go to war with?

Fuck all that shit.

Buy whatever you like. Don't have a red dot pistol but plan on it.

They are great for long range shooting.  I shoot steel at 100yds +.  Up close and fast I like regular sights.

He is literally making the same arguments everyone made about red dots on rifles 20 years ago… at great lengths.

You aren’t going to be good with irons on pistol if you don’t practice.
You also aren’t going to be good with a RDS on a pistol if you don’t practice.

My experience is red dots ARE objectively better.

In no way is this correct.

He has some good points and other areas where he is completely and demonstrably off the mark.

First, the good.

Open emitters are subject to foreign object and debris. Based upon my experience with them in the field this is not as big of an issue as some make it out to be (particularly with moisture), but it is to be considered. Closed emitter optics largely mitigate these concerns.

If you don’t train, or only shoot a couple of times a year under completely benign conditions a MRDS is a poor choice for you. They are not without a learning curve. If you expect to just pick it up and go to work expect to have a bad time.

Cost? Yes, but that goes without saying.

The bad… Where to begin?

He completely underestimates the benefits and skill building properties of dryfire. With a crushing support hand grip you are absolutely setting yourself up for gains in terms of transitions and doubles. You do need to confirm in live fire but to act as though there is so transitional benefit is simply untrue.

His statement that “if I spent 100,000 rounds shooting with irons and training to focus on the front sight it will take 100,001 rounds to train myself to focus on the target.”  Aside from the fact that under most conditions target focus with irons out to reasonable ranges has been accepted practice for well over a decade, this is 100% bullshit. I’ve trained long time iron sight shooters to overcome this over a weekend course. This is easy to demonstrate.

“They provide no performance benefit from contact distance to 10 yards”. Again, complete horseshit. Go to a USPSA or IDPA match and compare speed and accuracy from class to class between Production and CO or ESP to CO. There is a measurable performance delta in speed and accuracy. This has been demonstrated in the Sage Dynamics Whitepaper and elsewhere.

Comparing visible light lasers to MRDSs as a trend. Not comparable. Why? Timers exist. Lasers never showed a performance advantage and are measurably inferior to aimed fire. The potential performance delta of a MRDS is measurable.

As an aside, I was a little surprised with his statement about “I’ve put a LOT of rounds through these guns” that he’s owned in some cases for years. Come to find out it’s about 20k rounds for all of them. I don’t really consider that a lot of someone who’s entire life revolves around shooting or even a serious hobbyist.

Also… the garbage about WMLs sounds like an old man yelling at clouds. Go to a low light force on force or even a night action shoot. Run it with a handheld and then with a WML. Compare scores and get back to me.

Where he is off the mark is where he is making the politically correct statement "everyone should try them." Few people are very well served by plunking $300 - $500 into electronics that are going to sit atop a CCW piece.

Red dots on pistols and red dots on rifles are two totally different animals, and folks who try to argue otherwise clearly don't have much time on either platform. Rifles have 2+ points of contact, much better eye relief, and single points of aim (dots) work exceptionally well when you are dealing with a trajectory that allows for +/- 3" from 0 to about 225 yards.

I have yet to see any shooter, pro or otherwise, who is faster, consistently, 7 yards and in, with a red dot on a pistol. Nearly every shooter I've seen is MUCH more accurate with a dot from 10+ yards out, and most are faster as well, many significantly so. That is different from rifles, where a dot is often faster at ALL distances. Dots also make it much easier to train new/low roundcount shooters. That fact alone is likely driving the massive adoption by LE and MIL.

But for most folks, in the CCW arena, they are a liability, despite the wild claims from the keyboard commando crowd.

So for me, it really comes down to what I expect to do with a handgun, and what distances I reasonably expect to be engaging things.

Serious question:

Do you shoot competitively?

Because I know scores of shooters who are faster and more accurate with a MRDS across a spectrum of skill levels even at seven yards. In fact, I am one of them. I was when I was a B-Class and I still am as a GM.

It may only be a consistent quarter to a half second on a drill and it may just be less Charlie’s over the course of a training evolution, but the difference is there.

Handgunning has been elevated to a completely different plateau with the advent of mini/micro RDS. No more front sight focus, accuracy at distances that were once considered untypical are now well within effective range. You do not get to choose the terms of engagement. The pros outweigh the cons and juice is worth the squeeze.

Battery life - Treat it like your watch. Every time I put on a watch I check for function and time indicated. I check my carry gun with RDS. I check to if it’s loaded and if the RDS is functioning.

Don’t be an old dog unwilling to learn new tricks. The goal posts have moved and you need to move with them.

ETA: Honestly, if I can see the dot you can as well. It takes practice - repetition, repetition, repetition. Through repetition comes repeatability. Apply effort until it’s effortless.

I didn’t watch the video but have no interest in one for a carry gun, mainly because it’s just something else to fail, gonna get dirty, banged around, adds a different size dimension and limited holster options. Just unnecessary 25 yards and in and not as intuitive imo as good irons. For range, hunting, property/ranch etc. they’re cool.

How is target focus not intuitive?

If you’re concerned about failure rather than just talking points wouldn’t a MRDS with BUIS which provided a level of redundancy be a better choice?

Well, shit!  I searched "Hackathorn" and had no hits.  Damn it, Arfcom needs to improve the search function here!

I shot my first MRDS handgun on Wednesday, as a part of the training curriculum for my new agency. I did 800+ draws on Wednesday, 300+ on Thursday, and a handful on Friday. With that amount of training, I can say, without a doubt,  that I am MUCH faster with the red dot, from 15 yards and in.

I am more accurate with iron sights. If you wanted me to shoot a quarter at 7 yards with no timer, I would take my iron sighted Glocks. If you put me on a timer and demanded A-zone hits, I am far faster with a red dot.

I can officially say that for self defense, I co sider the red dot a game changer. It really should be considered cheating

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I`m kinda where he was talking about.  I have told my mind and my eye for over four decades to Front Sight & Trigger Press.  that kinda programing does not go away easily. but with my current right eye problem, optics are definitely an option.  I put a Vortex Viper on my Taurus TX22 and a Swampfox Sentinel on my M&P Shield Plus OR.  the jury is out.  those are the two pistols I will continually shoot. I may use a dovetail mount to try an optic on one of my full size M&Ps,  probably a 9mm.  I`m still pretty useful shooting fast and dirty up close, I`m confident about that, but I would like to be able to hit farther out. Its funny really, but I have tried the stuff KH talked about, rubber grips, lasers, adjustable sights, 40 S&W.  Until this eye problem I have been confident and happy with fixed Ameriglo CAP sights, that still may be my best option. YMMV

Charlton Heston would have used an RDS…

Nice write up.  I agree.

When shooting for time inside 10yds, my speed and accuracy is the same between my RMR'ed Staccato and my sig 365XMacro.

At 12-25yds, the Staccato starts to take the lead in accuracy and speed.  I'll pack the Staccato when I can for carry but it is bulky.

all my adult life I have tried to be a better shooter. its always been important to me. I feel like this is the next step. Even as an old dog, I`m willing to give it an honest try.

Missed this part earlier.

As a guy who has been a night shifter for nearly 2 decades, if you don't believe in WMLs after what I've seen and done, I honestly don't know what will convince you.

And im not even one of the hard-core guys. I'm just a small town cop who has drawn his gun for work a fair bit and a time or two for personal stuff on the property

I watched it from beginning to end. He has some points...

At close range, say 10 yards, a red dot may not be any better for self defense.

A newbie in the field starting out with red dots instead of irons might have a better job acclimating to the red dot.

Honestly the search function is so bad I just do a web search with “ar15.com” on the end.

Nailed that!!  Lots of panties in a twist!!  

Makes me wonder how many RDS salesmen we have here.  

Sure.  People who have experience and a differing opinion must have their "panties in a twist" or be "RDS salesmen."

Starting from scratch I absolutely think it’s easier to go straight to an optic. Optic to irons is much easier than irons to optics.

All of the work that you have to do to snap in with an optic directly translates to irons in a big way.

Jimmies are unrustled, I just shoot a lot.

I don’t get it

Learn to use both.

I can drive a stick shift and I can drive an automatic.

I have ARs with iton sights, Eotech and scope - I can use all of them.

Recently put a red dot on my CZ75 after decades of iron sights - and yes its faster and ( at range ) more accurate. In poor light its a game changer.

But I also have a CZ P01 which will remain iron sights.

Who am I going to listen to? Ken Hackathorn or anonymous basement dwellers in GD?

Experience and a differing opinion, no.  Getting so defensive about it, yes.

Lemme guess:  You wrote an article about all of your experience and a differing opinion?

It's GD.  Lighten up.  

-how about neither?

I have astigmatisms in both eyes.  RDS aren't for me, either on pistols or rifles.

I understand their appeal for some people, though.

You should learn by doing.

Shoot a lot.  Run drills.  Take classes from people who have demonstrated high performance.

Compete against others that are better than you. Learn what they do better and emulate it.

Buy a timer.  Train to standards.  Track your own performance.

Build skill.

That’s what you should do.

Touche!!

Wait, what?



Agreed, that number is laughable for being "a lot" for anybody remotely into serious shooting. I was shooting 10k+ per year when I was really into USPSA, and that was still just as a hobby.

ETA: Also, as you correctly point out, the whole "it will take a long time to retrain" is indeed complete bullshit. It took me an insignificant amount of time to adapt to dots. I also swap back and forth between dots and irons with zero issues.

The answer for me is no.

I watched the video and agree with him pretty much. Simplicity and not having a “bucket” on my hip (lmao) are pretty much my main reasons.

Lololol

Looking at your target isn’t intuitive? I don’t understand that, but ok.

Why would you need a “bucket on your hip” to carry a gun with an MRDS?

A dot is better, obviously.  But is it really that big of a deal one way or the other way some other guy wants to carry?

If you have astigmatisms so bad you can't focus on an RDS, how the hell do you focus on iron sights?

I've tried 3 different red dots on my Glock 19 Gen 5 MOS and Sig P320 and its just not for me.  I mainly shoot 15 yards or less with my pistols and I'm much faster with irons.

If I'm going to shoot further out than 15 yards with a pistol caliber then ill use my Sig MPX SBR with a Trijicon RMR.

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And as with many other things, MRDS were notable in competition use well before everybody else started jumping on the bandwagon. We of course had C-Mores for ages, but the MRDS wave started there too. It took the rugged reputation of the RMR to start bringing more people onboard, as no longer were MRDS considered impractical due to fragility. (And has lead to one of the things that drives me nuts, which is the people who refer to all MRDS as "RMRs".)

I want to say it has been over a decade now since I saw people using slide-mounted MRDS in competition. When did the first Docter MRDS come out?

The dot in any red dot sight looks like a paintball impact to me. I just ignore it and it's faster and more accurate than irons.

Shot handguns for 25 years until I put together my first RMR on a pistol early this year. Yes, it takes some practice to get fast at picking up the dot out of a holster draw, but we're talking a couple hours of dryfire and a day at the range.

lol, so turn of the millennium.  scooch over boomers, the future is wearable

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RDS look like a bunch of grapes.  Bigger the dot, the more grapes there are.

Irons, whether on a pistol or rifle, aren't a problem.  Never have been.



1st time I bought an RDS, Burris XTS-135, I returned it because I thought the dot was defective.  After the 3rd time returning it, I learned I had astigmatisms.

If nothing else, an RDS will exaggerate out how good or not good of a pistol shooter a person is.  It's not a shortcut to anything, in my opinion.

Every flinch, pull, jerk or squeeze will be literally on display right there in front of you, impossible to not notice.  You will definitely know when you have exceeded your speed limit.