Gotcha. I should clarify that I meant the fact that she had shot at the cops in the past is not justification all by itself. It would be a heavily weighted factor, but if everything else about the situation suggested she was trying to surrender or trying to get away from her father, then all by itself the fact she had previously shot at the cops wouldn't be enough by itself to justify potential deadly force.

IE, if she was running towards them with her palms held towards them with her head ducked low (like when they'd go to the choppers on M*A*S*H) and yelling "Help me! Help me!" then I would say not justified. If she was running towards  them while looking directly at them with her arms hidden or tucked close to her body, then justified.

Well then we are in complete agreement.

That's not how GD works.

I disagree with you on that.

That’s the spirit

Interesting....  mainly because while I have zero training on how to be a good hostage, I have plenty on how to deal with hostages running towards me... “self rescue”, “breakout”, etc.  (SWAT).

Matter of fact, most training scenarios like that we were trying to encourage them to run towards us if they had a clear get away, and we would creep as close as possible to the hostage(s) to facilitate getting to them quickly and getting ourselves in between them and the hostage taker.  

It is a pretty basic thing- if they can get away, they should.  We will react as needed to meet them and protect them.  Far more effective than sitting there as a hostage and hoping for the best if police have to force an entry.

A hostage taker separated from all the hostages is just another dipshit barricaded suspect- a much simpler scenario than a hostage situation.  

So my take on it is to always escape if given the opportunity...  Your advice is contrary to what I know from being the guy in these training scenarios (and a few real ones here and there) for 15 years.  Any SWAT person worth a shit knows hostages may break free at any time, and are hoping it happens.  

Being a hostage in a military setting may be different, but basically your advice is bad for typical stuff a citizen here may find themselves involved in.  Safer to make a break for it if given a clear opportunity, than hoping for an entry to be made by police or a successful negotiation.  Because negotiation take a long time, and you are at the whim of the suspect.  Forced entry on hostage situations is rare and risky.  People self rescuing, on the other hand, is pretty common in these situations, and really simplifies the problem.  

TLDR- Your advice is bad for US LE response (most of the time...)

Forgot to mention- doesn’t sound like this kid was a true hostage anyhow.  

In a 50 mile rolling gunfight, If she was engaging them with a rifle, I am certain they knew she was shooting at them and she had moved from the “kidnapped kid” category to a “deadly threat” category in their minds.  So if she then bailed and ran at them in anything other than a clear surrender posture, it is understandable that she got shot, armed or not, as you would assume she was still of the same intent and likely had a pistol.

(And- If her father “forced” her to shoot at PD cars while he was driving, she could have just shot the ground, no way he could know the difference.  Instead she hit the windshields and disabled one car....so if she did that, well too bad for her I guess...no loss to society).


Not entirely uncommon for kidnapping “victims” to turn out to be willing accomplices.  I was involved in resolving one incident where an LEO had been shot trying to rescue a “hostage” who turned out to not be...

Still she could have survived if she had done an obvious surrender.  I am going with the PD on this one unless we see footage of her with her hands up and following commands, and then she gets shot.  

TLDR- don’t shoot at police and then expect them to not consider you a threat in some manner or other.

@Creatyre
You'll do well here.

Log out and log back in.

You are a good cop and we need more of you.  Thank you.  

Guaranteed survival

Did that dude have Frankenstein tattooed on his throat?

Thought I’d seen it all…

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No, never interact with cops if you can help it. The best interaction with them is one you never have.

Don't help, hinder, or get near them.

They aren't a Rockwell painting on the fucking Saturday Evening Post. That shit died after 9/11.

They will kill your ass even if you comply. They are hamstrung by politics to where they have two tools- taser or gun.

If you want help, call the paramedics or firefighters. If you want trouble, call a cop.

It could be Herman Munster.

Very convenient that the girl running toward them was also definitely shooting at them. I guess the cops dodged a bullet in more than one way on this one. I'm guessing there will be no video of the girl shooting at any point in this.

Black lives matter, Montana chapter

Stay blind.

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It is excellent advice to avoid police as much as possible. They are armed strangers and could easily assume you are a bad guy.

Bad apples. Your point?

There are only a handful of good apples. Most are one day away from becoming a bad apple. Prepare and act accordingly.

A much better percentage of good apples there than in GD.

That stupid cliche again? The sheer kneeling numbers speaks to the fuck-you-pay-me culture that has consumed government. They could've walked away from all the capitulation to riot terrorists & mask mandates. But they didn't. When the time comes & the ante is upped, still more will comply. Because priorities.

I’ve had both trainings. He’s not wrong. He’s talking about a service member being held/tortured when an unexpected rescue is launched. You go prone, cover your head, don’t move and wait until the shooting stops and they start asking questions and deadchecking.

For a civi being held in a house or whatever by a crackhead or a burglar or the drunk husband yeah absolutely get away and run to the fuzz and start giving them intel.

But when the door is busted and the dying starts you should lay flat. It’s a matter of timing. Not every team is tier 1. As possibly evidenced here.