Yep, I agree with Dukota... "Parents" today are not what our parents were (especially for us old farts) when we were growing up.  I too have seen the leash thing at Disney, etc., but I always wonder what kind of psychological message that sends the kids.  The damned parents are just too lazy to teach the kids to do right.  

I could go on and on, but it's a different world today than it was in my childhood days.  And I, like sven, had a dog that I had trained.  He didn't need a leash.  If you can teach a dog that, you can damned sure teach a kid.  [:(!]

Ya know, there's the old saying "the apple dosen't fall far from the tree".  I guess if you were raised by parents that used a leash on you as a child you will probably use a leash on your children in raising them  because "that's the way I was raised".  It's been my experience though, that every child I have ever seen on a leash was being totally ignored by the parent that is dragging them along.

As far as the comments about the "armchair commandos who have no experience with little kids", I've already listed my "qualifications" as a stay at home dad.  Some like ETH are active in the raising of their second set of children (grandchildren).  To say that we don't know what we are talking about when you don't know us just dosen't make any sense.

Hey, I was just showing our receptionist this thread and she said to tell you guys/gals that she raised four kids.  And to keep them out of her hair, she kept them on leashes in the backyard... but hey, they all had water![;)]

Dukota, with a all due respect, that is a wonderful argument.  You are right, I don't know you just like you don't know the folks who are leashing their kids and their circumstances.  I'd love to point out to you that that having 3 kids 8 years apart is a world of difference from having kids closer in age, or that occassionally seeing your grandkids is a lot different than having kids and having to take them with you everywhere, but I will not make those points or judge you and Eric, because I do not know your circumstances.

Hey, maybe some parents do it for the wrong reasons.  But it is a little hard to understand all of the cirucmstances just by looking at someone on the street.  You are only getting a small part of the story there.

Even if they do it for the wrong reasons I say it the parent's choice and, absent abandonment, abuse, or neglect, the parent's choice is final with respect to their kids.  And that should be respected.

Post from imposter -

I have three toddling grandchildren, all of whom I keep just about every weekend that I'm not at a gun show. How theoretical is that?

Yeah, what if...[:D]

Every grocery store worth the name has carry-out clerks, to assist in just such a situation!

My parents had three toddling children as well.

None of us wore a leash, none of us got run over, and I can guaran-damn-tee you that life was simply not as easy as it is today.

My mother washed clothes every day with three kids, and there was no clothes dryer, which meant going outside with three kids in the blazing hot sun in Summer or in the freezing-azz Winter, to hand the clothes out to dry.

There were no micro meals.

Our nearest neighbors were 12 miles away, so forget any kind of support group.

And a whole friggin generation of rugrats was raised in just the same manner.

With no leashes.

Lord, how did we ever survive?

Eric The(Facetious)Hun[>]:)]

And we had to walk 15 miles to school every day, and it was uphill both ways. [:D]  Keep the 'when I was a boy' stuff up, and you just might be labeled an old codger.  [;)]

I know everybody likes to say what fine people we used to create in the good ol' days.  It was harder then for sure.  But most of the older people I know were so scarred by the experience that they are every bit as screwed up as your average teen is these days, if not more so.  Maybe more honest and hard working, but basically incapable of having good relationships.  And often mean as hell, even without a leash.  They do not snap out of it until they are like 70, and realize that they have wasted their whole life being angry at everything.

BTW, I have seen some lovely old turn of the century photos of how farm wives kept the toddlers from danger *while* they hung the wash out on the line.....
They simply lifted a large table leg and pinned the child by his loose clothing to the floor with the weight. There were also primitive "playpens", or as you all would undoubtedly call them, "baby cages", but those were generally a city thing, and not found in primitive areas very often.
Even in those days, there were plenty of hazards a toddler or two could get into while Mom hung out the wash.
There is a lot of work involved in rearing a child, and only a small fraction of this work can be accomplished while holding said child's hand.
Get real, guys, all children under the age of 3 seem bent on "suicide by curiosity".
It is our job as parents to prevent this.

Let me start off by saying that I do have a daughter, and yes she is quite the busy body, but just because I am to busy or lazy doesn't mean I get to stop being a responsiblee parent.  

Maybe I should just chain her up in the back yard and go out and fill her dish every once in a while.  Sorry but putting a kid on a leash has not place in my world.

i would be to embarassed to put my kid on a leash.it looks silly. i always think the parents are overprotective. i think of leashes being for dogs.
(i have three grown children.)

Post from imposter -

Well, just look around you. If that doesn't convince you we took the wrong path years ago, I can't help you!

Where'd you grow up? Just outside Calcutta?[:D]

My grandparents were the among the most happy and well-adjusted people I have ever known.

And they both grew up dirt-poor on farms in West Texas that you would drive past at 90 miles an hour and not give a thought about the identities of the original occupants of those ramshackle, hardscrabble farms.

But they loved life, and they made it abundantly clear that life was worth loving no matter the circumstances of your birth.

No one could laugh as heartily as my Mother's Mother, who was one of three of thirteen children who lived to see their 21st birthday.

If someone wants to be depressed, how would you react to having attended the funerals of [b]ten[/b] of your brothers and sisters?

Spare me that crap, please. My great, great grandparents were in love all of their lives and you could tell it from the character of their children, and their children's children.

There was never a cross word among any of the older folks I knew. And it's not like my grandmother knew that she was under her husband's thumb and couldn't do anything without him. She operated a grill across the street from the Crowell Public Schools and made a very nice living in the 40s, 50s, and 60s running her own little business.

If that's what the older folks were like where you grew up then I feel sorry for them.

Such melancholia was simply unknown among the members of my family.

Oh, BTW, my father and aunt had to walk [b]8 miles to school[/b] when they were growing up in West Texas in the 1920s.

But they cheated, they simply cut four miles across some wheat fields til they came to Texas State Hwy 6 and would hitch a ride with whoever was coming into town for the last 4 miles.

Dad told me that they were never late for school. Ever.

That's character.

Eric The(WeCouldSureUseSomeMore)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, I just got to tell that I think it is pretty funny, you going on about how hard the folks had it in rural TX 50 years ago, and how they did not need leashes.  They also did not live in suburbs, have busy streets, have 100 cars go by their house every hour, did not have to deal with the Wal-Mart parking lot and did not have strangers around who kidnapped kids.  I imagine they also made sure that the perverts would not again hurt a child.  All of these things have changed now.  But at least one thing has not changed, hopefully, and that is that we leave it up to the parents to decide how to raise their kids.  Tethered or not.

No crap, sir.  I look at my relations and they universaly had this problem.  This is not to say they were not good providers and hard workers, and many grew up to be generals, governors or millionaires.  But still screwed up.

Post from imposter -

Fifty years ago? No, I'm fifty years old and I'm talking about my great greandparents, ny grandparents and my parents. So make that 75 -
125 years ago.

Hmmm. Being up there in Utah, have you ever heard of Hostiles running off with white kids?

It happened down here in Texas, quite a bit!

And when the Comanches took your child in 1839, as they did Cynthia Ann Parker, there were no 'all points bulletins', no milk cartons with pictures of missing kids on them, no faxed photos sent to neighboring counties, much less neighboring states, no 'Amber alerts', nothing.

[u]You[/u] and you closest neighbors either got your child back or you didn't!

Did [u]anyone[/u] here suggest a law against tethering or kiddie leashes? No?

Then what's your complaint? Some of us think it's totally humiliating and totally foreign to how we raise our children/grandchildren.

Eric The(Simple)Hun[>]:)]

I don't think a leash is going to stop some armed bloodthirsty savages from taking your kid.  It might stop your kid from being hit by a car, or being stolen in a crowd by some pervert.  Neither was a concern in rural TX in 1839.  Times of changed at least in that respect.

We still have armed bloodthirsty savages, but a leash is still not going to do you any good against them.

BTW, I don't think we had quite the problem with Indians here in Utah that you did in Texas.  Ours were much more primitive and less numerous.

I don't think the issue is "our children/grandchildren."  Clearly, whether you tether your kids is your choice, praise be Allah.  You guys are judging other people and how they raise their kids, about which you know nothing.  While you fellows are not talking about making it illegal, you are definitely disrespecting some other parents choice.  I don't think it is your business.  I am sure you guys have parenting practices that some NY liberals would see as deviant; do you want them judging you?  As soon as they feel it is their business, you can bet they will start to legislate the issue.

[b]DISCIPLINE YOUR CHILDREN!!!!!!![/b]

Zachary, hold my hand.

later...

Zachary, hold my hand!

later...

Zaaaaaach!

later...

Zachary - one more time and that's it.

later...

If he doesn't want a whipping, he's holding my hand!


Old enough to walk around in public - old enough to mind me.

... WOOF WOOF



... Ixnay on the eshlay, noone in my [b]huge[/b] family [u]ever[/u] wore one.

... Parents then controlled their kids not guns.

First of all, I'll state that a "leasher" does not a horrid parent make - and a "non-leasher" does not a good parent make.


DoomPatrol - Perhaps I'm missing the mark here, but to me, when you say "spirited child", you mean a kid that has been taught that he can do whatever the hell he wants because there are no consequences - a holy terror who can't be trusted later in life because he has never learned what *discipline* is.  If he does grow up to have some self control (like I assume you do - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), he has to learn to have it on his own!


Greenhorn wrote:

That statement is just a blond c*nt hair from pissing me off.  Preposterous!  Your saving grace is you used the word "might".  I use that word a lot too - gets your point across clearly, but leaves you a legitimate out if you opinion won't stand the test of inspection. [:D]

Wrong - might be that they are too lazy to raise their kids.  The parent might know that they won't be paying attention to the child so they tie em up.  That would show, CLEARLY, that the parent hasn't invested the enormous amount of time it takes to lovingly teach a child discipline.  The parents take a big shortcut - just tie the little bugger up.

As for parents or kids that are disabled - duh - necessity is something different.

Next month my 11yr old will get his first shotgun - 12ga 870.  I will have a close, watchful eye on him, but I will not be afraid in the leastbit to hunt with him this fall.

Can't do that with an 11 yr old who was raised on a leash!
[rolleyes]

Jeez Louise, this topic has gone on way too long!  Out of all the different aspects of parenting, this seems pretty tame, an annoyance at most.  I'd rank this up there with parents who dress twins the same.  It is just no big deal.  If you want use a leash/harnass, use one.  If you don't need one, then don't use one.  

Personally, I couldn't see me ever using something like this unless there were some type of special circumstances (very fast 3 year old + amusement park).  

Honestly, I don't care for the idea, but I don't see the harm.  I work with children and I have yet to see one that was traumatized by being placed on one of these.

It sounds to me like a leash on a child might have a very limited legitimate utility consistent with our kind of values, however the presence of them in society has led to the misuse of them as a tool to avoid dealing responsibly with your child.

Unless it was a last resort for keeping the child safe (disability, etc.), no way, I can't see myself doing it.  Normal healthy children and normal healthy parents in my mind = no leash.

Child control in a crowd can be difficult at best.  It is unbelievable just how fast they can move.  Training my ass!!  If they see something they want, they are GONE without regard to tah car bearing down!  Never forget, our FIRST responsibility is to keep them alive!!

It is also FAR better from the kid's point of view!  Gives them a limited range of freedom.  Also, think of this:  You ever been dragged around by the arm all day?  Held high over your head?  Yep, hurts like hell and is cruel.

My kid had a leash which was used in dangerous or crowded areas.  She was given the choice the rest of the time and guess which way SHE wanted to go out?  Yep, chose the leash over having to walk around with her arm streched over her head.

Now the shock collar - needed one of those for her mother!  Have seen a few kids where it SHOULD have been used!  Not sure if I approve of those on dogs even.

Pretty much all of them when it became necessary.  It probably became a solid practice  as soon as they first figured out you could braid sinew or vegetable fibers into cord and rope.

Here's another one:  Swaddling.  Mother's swaddled their young children until they were well into the toddler zone to keep them under control and out of trouble. If they can't move their arms and legs they can't crawl or roll off into the fireplace or stove can they?  The American Indians did the same thing except they called it a papoose and rigged it into a backpack. Keeps the kid close, under control and out of your way so you can work.

In the 18th century in Europe and America their are ample depictions of children tethered to their mother and to one another with cords, generally tied around the waist.

This practice passed across the ocean to America with the first colonists.  Doubtless it was also practiced throughout earlier times as well.

I'm not saying we should tether, gate, playpen our kids for every minute of their days.  I certainly don't with mine. All I'm saying is that at certain times and places, attaching your kid to yourself is simple common sense.  

Sure it's not an absolute preventer of child abduction since a sharp knife or shears will make quick work of any tether short of a steel chain, but the extra work and chance of detection makes the target less inviting.

It also cannot absolutely prevent a child from slipping away, but it'll slow them down a bit and give you time to react.

If you don't wish to avail yourself of this tool, fine, but don't piss on the folks who do, out of some false sense of superior parenting skills. Parenting ain't about adhering to some set of rote rules.  Every kid is different and responds differently to different situations. And you cannot raise a kid today like you could even thirty years ago. If my parents were trying to raise a kid today like they raised me and my sisters they would be put in jail. We weren't hit a lot, but we got spanked when we deserved it.  You can't do that anymore, cause all it takes is for your kid to mention getting spanked within earshot of some teacher or whatever and you are up on charges. So the iron discipline and fear of dad that we grew up under isn't valid anymore.

But hell some of y'all don't have a stake in this game anymore.  Your kids are growed up and the grandkids ain't really your responsibility after all so WTF, why not rip into the rest of us doing the best we can with half the tools our parents had at their disposal to discipline and raise our kids. Ain't no skin off yer noses and no-one can really call you on it.

I bought some shocking dog collars for my children.

 By just pushing the "punish," button I know where they are, depending on the direction and intensity of the scream.

The adjustable pain control works really well for those "stubborn," cases.

BTW- Make sure to padlock the collars to their necks...cause the little bastards can easily figure out how to take them off.  Hide the controller so they don't shock each other too.  

[shock]