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Posted: 9/18/2019 7:54:10 AM EDT
[#1]
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At $15 an hour there was over 50% turnover within 30 days for all new hires. The current pay progression scale wasn't even a real point of contention for the first few years of employment, it was only the upper end that was an issue. You simply can't retain workers at the lower end of the pay progression. Why work in a hot ass factory climbing in and out of vehicles a thousand times a day with hours that prevent you from seeing your family when you can make just as much at a ton of other places with better hours and easier work? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good! I’ll take a job at half the pay 1/4 of the benefits and not bitch for a second. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 7:55:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal law and regs trump state law. If a company in a right to work state is unionized even non union employees can be forced to pay union dues, and to be represented by a union. 
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Posted: 9/18/2019 7:55:50 AM EDT
[#3]
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Then go work one of those easier jobs that pay more? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good! I’ll take a job at half the pay 1/4 of the benefits and not bitch for a second. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 7:58:19 AM EDT
[#4]
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The job must be really easy (and thus low value) if they can just keep pulling in new people off the street and plugging them in. Sounds like the job has the right price tag attached to it. When they have trouble coming up with people to do the work, they will raise the wage. It's what happens in a free market. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good! I’ll take a job at half the pay 1/4 of the benefits and not bitch for a second. Sounds like the job has the right price tag attached to it. When they have trouble coming up with people to do the work, they will raise the wage. It's what happens in a free market. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:05:36 AM EDT
[#5]
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Then go work one of those easier jobs that pay more? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good! I’ll take a job at half the pay 1/4 of the benefits and not bitch for a second.  Your reading comprehension skills can't possibly be that bad.
That's exactly what they did. You seriously can't understand why massive turnover is a problem for the employer? Have you ever worked in a position above the absolute bottom rung? |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:08:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not fire them... Lock them out. Two different situations. Cat didn't fire all the striking workers, it replaced them with temp labor and management. Totally legal, even under Obama's administration. The strike went on and off for 9 years . It offered positions back to anybody willing to cross the picket line. Totally legal. Anybody left after 9 years got to come back under the new contract which fucked the UAW over. They signed the contract, because there was nobody left to support the strike. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:19:38 AM EDT
[#7]
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I know nothing about whats going on. From my no info point of view I see nothing funny of mocking men fighting for a better work environment and wage. should they just shut up taking less? Everything you dont like is a socialist right? The rights socalist is the lefts nazis. Shits old. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure why this is so funny? Do you have a problem with that, comrade? should they just shut up taking less? Everything you dont like is a socialist right? The rights socalist is the lefts nazis. Shits old. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:22:13 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know nothing about whats going on. From my no info point of view I see nothing funny of mocking men fighting for a better work environment and wage. should they just shut up taking less? Everything you dont like is a socialist right? The rights socalist is the lefts nazis. Shits old. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure why this is so funny? Do you have a problem with that, comrade? should they just shut up taking less? Everything you dont like is a socialist right? The rights socalist is the lefts nazis. Shits old. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:26:54 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In to see how many union haters, have union built vehicles in their driveways. Here’s a list of union built items that union haters can avoid. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:27:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your reading comprehension skills can't possibly be that bad.
That's exactly what they did. You seriously can't understand why massive turnover is a problem for the employer? Have you ever worked in a position above the absolute bottom rung? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good! I’ll take a job at half the pay 1/4 of the benefits and not bitch for a second. Your reading comprehension skills can't possibly be that bad.
That's exactly what they did. You seriously can't understand why massive turnover is a problem for the employer? Have you ever worked in a position above the absolute bottom rung? Rumor is that a lot of those guys are just waiting for the contract to pass, so they get their signing bonus, and then they’re quitting. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:29:51 AM EDT
[#11]
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What's a UAW's making hourly? I know several years ago I heard a figure, that if you added there benefits, pension, hourly, vacation time that it was close to 75.00 an hour. This is to tighten a bolt or set a plastic piece on steel or some single activity on an assembly line. They arent curing cancer or saving lives.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure why this is so funny? Do you have a problem with that, comrade? should they just shut up taking less? Everything you dont like is a socialist right? The rights socalist is the lefts nazis. Shits old. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:30:23 AM EDT
[#12]
My guess is, this is actually in the agreement between the union and GM. So, somewhere along the line, both sides agreed to this. Words matter.....
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Posted: 9/18/2019 8:30:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Dbl
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:16:38 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I'll run right out and make more money by taking a job paying less than half what the people that worked for me make. That's that's the sort of well thought out and logically sound argument we get here. 
I never worked for GM, but I know exactly what sort of problems they have. At those wages you have shit employee retention and are attracting shit candidates. Anyone worth a shit is going to want some sort of flexibility in hours and will leave the minute they get moved to afternoons and it conflicts with their school. When the inevitable layoffs hit they go somewhere else. When their side gig hits ,or they graduate from school, they're gone. So who do you get left with? People who need medical because of their health of their kids... People with broken bodies climbing in and out of a Silverado a couple thousand times a day? Now that employee goes out on medical after a year and you're stuck.
If you want to attract young, healthy employee that you can retain, you need to offer better wages than fast food places. Something has to make up for the fact they expect you working off shifts or swing shifts in the heat and doing physically demanding jobs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: That pay is more than competitive in today's labor market. Just like management's pay. Don't like it? Go work somewhere else. You can get a job at a fast food place or grocery store making almost that and have better working conditions and hours. Permanent hires are better, but even that isn't enough to make up for the shit hours for the folks you want to hire.You might make $15/hr at Walmart. Eventually. Your benefits will suck, your hours will suck, and your retirement will suck. And, unlike the cushy job at GM, Walmart can fire your ass at a moments notice, for any reason.
Yeah, I'll run right out and make more money by taking a job paying less than half what the people that worked for me make. That's that's the sort of well thought out and logically sound argument we get here.
I never worked for GM, but I know exactly what sort of problems they have. At those wages you have shit employee retention and are attracting shit candidates. Anyone worth a shit is going to want some sort of flexibility in hours and will leave the minute they get moved to afternoons and it conflicts with their school. When the inevitable layoffs hit they go somewhere else. When their side gig hits ,or they graduate from school, they're gone. So who do you get left with? People who need medical because of their health of their kids... People with broken bodies climbing in and out of a Silverado a couple thousand times a day? Now that employee goes out on medical after a year and you're stuck.
If you want to attract young, healthy employee that you can retain, you need to offer better wages than fast food places. Something has to make up for the fact they expect you working off shifts or swing shifts in the heat and doing physically demanding jobs. What you are describing is a corporate stance - not something a union will ever be able to budge other than incremental stuff like you see. What a union does result in is some portion knowing they can take the exact amount of breaks and the exact amount of lunch time doing the exact minimum but hey at least they gots their pay right? Maybe the auto industry is different but I have worked with different unions throughout my years in different industries and every time I find myself pissed I have to use union workers because in comparison they suck. Not only at ethic but at the actual skill too. Anyone I know worth a shit that is in the union is simply to get more gigs (self employed and some places can only use union) ETA: In fact my current company is in a legal dispute because the loss due to damage on a recent project where we had to use union was 3X a normal project. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:22:10 AM EDT
[#15]
I wonder how much unsold inventory this will help GM clear out...
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:27:57 AM EDT
[#16]
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Yea, that’s a real alternative, right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or you can close down and reopen elsewhere. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:29:35 AM EDT
[#17]
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There's a difference between contract negotiations and completely failing to do your job and choking the company. That's not negotiation - it's ransom. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So people shouldn't be able to associate with other people or groups freely? That's not negotiation - it's ransom. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:39:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Unions suck especially the uaw
GM sucks /thread |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:39:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive seen this before. Mods shouldnt be allowed who are union members. How can we allow people who are members of unions the cornerstone of communism to moderate gun communities. By staying pro union you are deliberately supporting gun bans and are contributing money to those working against us. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My current job is the first time I have ever been in a union of any form or really around one at all. So my experience is limited. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:44:58 AM EDT
[#20]
In the past, on the longer strikes, UAW members also applied for and many received FOOD STAMPS!
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:46:52 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In the past, on the longer strikes, UAW members also applied for and many received FOOD STAMPS! |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:47:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive seen this before. Mods shouldnt be allowed who are union members. How can we allow people who are members of unions the cornerstone of communism to moderate gun communities. By staying pro union you are deliberately supporting gun bans and are contributing money to those working against us. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My current job is the first time I have ever been in a union of any form or really around one at all. So my experience is limited.
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:51:49 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You do realize that may be the corp strategy right? We aren't talking surgeons here we are talking assembly line. For instance they may know the lower cost to employ far outweighs the savings on vehicles being warrantied for defects. There is a reason the fast turnover doesnt hamstring the company - fast spin up/training. I don't think the CEO gives two shits that bob in dashboard assembly is leaving after 3 months. That contract you speak of - there is a reason the time period is what it is. Its all numbers and math - calculated formulas. What you are describing is a corporate stance - not something a union will ever be able to budge other than incremental stuff like you see. What a union does result in is some portion knowing they can take the exact amount of breaks and the exact amount of lunch time doing the exact minimum but hey at least they gots their pay right? Maybe the auto industry is different but I have worked with different unions throughout my years in different industries and every time I find myself pissed I have to use union workers because in comparison they suck. Not only at ethic but at the actual skill too. Anyone I know worth a shit that is in the union is simply to get more gigs (self employed and some places can only use union) ETA: In fact my current company is in a legal dispute because the loss due to damage on a recent project where we had to use union was 3X a normal project. Absenteeism and turnover are a huge problem for assembly work. It isn't difficult to train someone, but it kills throughput while they are training. One slow person slows the entire line. When you're dealing with an entire facility that only has one product line, absenteeism and high turnover are killers. Defects, down time, repairs, recalls... Those things cost a hell of a lot more than the hourly rate of new hires. Labor is relatively cheap these days, and getting cheaper every year as more legacy employees retire and more tier take come in. Infrastructure is a huge investment. You want to maximize the up time and throughput. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:52:07 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool story bro. So no...not a cool story bro. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:54:16 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm assuming UAW is bad then? Guess ill google it.  At face value, the union is there to negotiate wage increases, assist workers with legal representation in times where they are wronged by employers, guarantee safe working conditions, etc. In reality, the most deceitful guys always ended up as union stewards, using their power to manipulate newer guys. They would create distrust between other workers and everyone in management. As soon as someone is promoted out of the union into a position of authority, they become the enemy. People that make you think they are your best friend are secretly spending their working day plotting their next move. Nowhere in the private sector have I seen things that take place in public sector unions. It's like a weird mix of kindergarten with the rules and high school with the drama. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:56:55 AM EDT
[#26]
I worked for Peterbilt in Denton, TX 1987-1991. The UAW had their moles inside recruiting people. They approached me dozens of times. Each time, "working conditions are bad, we need a raise, we need new tools, we need more breaks, we need.....fill in the blank".
Problem 1: The guys they recruited were the guys known by me and others to be the laziest of the lazy, they were always afraid they were gonna work too much. They never took an hour of overtime unless it was a total group thing to kick out extra trucks and they knew they would be noticed as gone. Problem 2: None of those things they stated were true. Peterbilt is/was the best blue collar work company I could have imagined working for. I had come from running wire and AC duct in attics in the Texas summer. I got 2 breaks and a lunch period every day I worked. I was making more money than I ever had in my life and I now had insurance. I did not have insurance when I worked construction. And I had a savings investment program, not called a 401k but similar premise and the company had a match, all for my retirement. The UAW could not wait to get a piece of that pie. I hated them because I knew they were lying to everybody in the plant. Too many of the lazy guys there had no idea what it meant to work hard. I just wonder how much of that 7xx billion dollars they have for a strike fund came at the expense of people who never wanted to be a part of that slum known as the UAW. When I left Peterbilt they still had not gone union. I have no idea where they are now, that was a LONG time ago I worked there. FUAW!!!! |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 9:57:12 AM EDT
[#27]
Ask the UMWA how all those Obama votes they cast back in 08 worked out for them .... FUCK UNIONS ... idiots
if you like your coal mine, you can keep your coal mine ... just fucking idiots |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 10:02:47 AM EDT
[#28]
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If I walk out as the worker who knows this equipment and makes you your outrageous profits, are you going to be able to make a profit with someone who hasn't a clue make you the same profit? btw this isn't roofing Cleetus. To where you can get some 3rd world immigrant to make the same product for you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So are you saying that you are against companies making a profit, or that you feel entitled to your fair share of their profits?  Why do you hate capitalism and freedom? |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 10:05:15 AM EDT
[#29]
[youtube]playlist?list=PL4D1CD2F32801CC4D[/youtube]
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Posted: 9/18/2019 10:10:39 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You cant be pro union..and pro gun. The two are mutually opposite. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 10:10:51 AM EDT
[#31]
 we shall not be moved |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 10:20:02 AM EDT
[#32]
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You guys are idiots. This is a headline for "eff unions" Same Union has 850 million in strike funds, the interest of which will cover these members insurance. The UAW will get paid back for whatever they spend on strikes. It's a no win situation for GM. But hey, it sounds like a zinger right!  $750,000,000 / 49,000 workers= $15,306 per worker. 49,000 *$250per week= $12,250,000 |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 10:33:42 AM EDT
[#33]
Everyone is laughing like GM decided to cut off benefits just now, in retaliation, when this has been long established as how a strike works.
The members knew about it before they ever went out. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 10:45:41 AM EDT
[#34]
I have a 2009 Toyota Tacoma that was built by UAW members in California at the old Toyota-GM joint venture plant. It has never given me any trouble since it was new.
GM's problems aren't the union's fault. GM sucks because their management consistently makes bad decisions. But everyone blames the union anyway. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:01:05 AM EDT
[#35]
“Two percent is nothing," said a local union leader who saw the deal. "We have not gained back anything we gave up during the bankruptcy I vaguely recall that the way GM's bankruptcy went, the Unions were first in line for payments (pensions, etc.), when the usual course of the Bankruptcy should have put them last in line... |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:03:14 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell me more about how the freedom of association and the freedom to own firearms are in conflict with each other. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:04:06 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From the linked article. I vaguely recall that the way GM's bankruptcy went, the Unions were first in line for payments (pensions, etc.), when the usual course of the Bankruptcy should have put them last in line... |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:06:56 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everyone is laughing like GM decided to cut off benefits just now, in retaliation, when this has been long established as how a strike works. The members knew about it before they ever went out. The UAW guy for GM's workers told them their benefits wouldn't be cut. Then GM cut the benefits and he acted outraged. I bet he knew it would happen and is just acting like it's GM's revenge so he can impress the newer union members. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:07:51 AM EDT
[#39]
If the workers are so outraged about the outrageous profits, why don't they buy some shares of GM's dividend-paying stocks and enjoy sharing in those profits via the dividend?
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:08:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We bust our asses at these plants. Are the some shit heads? Sure, but the majority of union workers, including myself, work our asses off. I'm an electrician who's worked non union and union and I can tell you Union workers have a much higher standard in craftsmanship then non union. PERIOD. I would bet easily against a non union employee against a union employee that a union guy would be better than any non union. If you was in the trades it's not even an comparison, unless you're cheap and retarded. He told me if you needed a job done you'd hope and pray they wouldn't send a union guy over. For tightening a lug nut the union worker would bring over one wrench. Not a tool belt or a tool box. One wrench. If it didn't fit, he'd go walk over to the other plant to grab another. It would take him at least an hour to come back. Half the time the second wrench wasn't the right one. But now it's time for his break, so he might be back with the right wrench three hours later, and a thirty second job took hours. Is this every union worker? Of course not. But by making crappy workers so difficult/expensive to fire, unions screw over companies. I'd choose non union labor every time just on principle. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:09:42 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We bust our asses at these plants. Are the some shit heads? Sure, but the majority of union workers, including myself, work our asses off. I'm an electrician who's worked non union and union and I can tell you Union workers have a much higher standard in craftsmanship then non union. PERIOD. I would bet easily against a non union employee against a union employee that a union guy would be better than any non union. If you was in the trades it's not even an comparison, unless you're cheap and retarded. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So it had nothing to do with management decisions to design and build pieces of crap, yes there have also been quality control issues with assembly, but it isnt all the union's fault that GM vehicles suck I would bet easily against a non union employee against a union employee that a union guy would be better than any non union. If you was in the trades it's not even an comparison, unless you're cheap and retarded.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:13:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder how much unsold inventory this will help GM clear out... |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:15:41 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We bust our asses at these plants. Are the some shit heads? Sure, but the majority of union workers, including myself, work our asses off. I'm an electrician who's worked non union and union and I can tell you Union workers have a much higher standard in craftsmanship then non union. PERIOD. I would bet easily against a non union employee against a union employee that a union guy would be better than any non union. If you was in the trades it's not even an comparison, unless you're cheap and retarded. The rest of us do not believe it. My experience with union workers is the reason why I go out of my way to avoid buying products or services made by union labor. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:20:29 AM EDT
[#44]
The very same forum where many of the same people were screaming “Government Motors omgwtfbbq!!!!” Are now standing with GM because “fuck unions” Holy shit I some of you morons would get your talking points straight.
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:21:00 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From the linked article. I vaguely recall that the way GM's bankruptcy went, the Unions were first in line for payments (pensions, etc.), when the usual course of the Bankruptcy should have put them last in line... |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:21:16 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The very same forum where many of the same people were screaming “Government Motors omgwtfbbq!!!!” Are now standing with GM because “fuck unions” Holy shit I some of you morons would get your talking points straight. This is Arfcom, the home of "get both". |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:25:48 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
The very same forum where many of the same people were screaming “Government Motors omgwtfbbq!!!!” Are now standing with GM because “fuck unions” Holy shit I some of you morons would get your talking points straight. Quoted: That's right. Secured debt and shareholders were told to go fuck themselves while employees got a free stake in the new company. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:26:22 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder about that. Maybe the longer-time members did. The newer guys, maybe not. The UAW guy for GM's workers told them their benefits wouldn't be cut. Then GM cut the benefits and he acted outraged. I bet he knew it would happen and is just acting like it's GM's revenge so he can impress the newer union members. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Everyone is laughing like GM decided to cut off benefits just now, in retaliation, when this has been long established as how a strike works. The members knew about it before they ever went out. The UAW guy for GM's workers told them their benefits wouldn't be cut. Then GM cut the benefits and he acted outraged. I bet he knew it would happen and is just acting like it's GM's revenge so he can impress the newer union members. The media, much like the public generally knows little about any of this, and takes everything at face value. Both sides play on emotion to make the other look bad. The company tries to make the union look as greedy as possible, while the union tries to make the company look as heartless as possible. They’re just trying to sway public opinion. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:29:45 AM EDT
[#49]
The American blue collar assembly line worker is nothing special. I wouldn't even go so far as to call them good, maybe middling at best. Better than Indians for sure, and usually better than Mexicans but that's about it. Our Thai and Filipino workers do good quality work and almost never cause issues. The Filipinos even speak better English than most of our blue collar staff here I have to deal with. And they do it for something like 11 bucks a day.
The reason there are still some things made or assembled here in the US is because of logistics, supply chain, lead times, tariffs, ease of supervision, etc. A purchaser with choice of global procurement would only pick production in the US in spite of labor, not because of it. No one is clamoring for the "skills" of our lazy, entitled, grossly overpaid factory workers. Any of these bums that are striking, I'm sure I could get them a nice position in front of a compression machine in Jawa Barat. They wouldn't survive a year. |
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Posted: 9/18/2019 11:30:47 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look Unions set the standards. Period. DO you think Toyota, Honda, etc, would pay as high as they do here in America do keep jobs in America if the UAW didn't fight for as high as standards as they do for us? Holy shit they have record breaking profits, and they still want to take it out of us, the PEOPLE WHO MAKE THE VEHICLE, AND GIVE THEM THEIR PROFIT, out of us. You think we're just going to be like "Okay pay us like we're in a third world country, while you make record profits"? Are you guys fucking high? Companies tend to pay what they can, and still make a profit. I mean if they aren't turning profit what's the point to employ you, or others. If they aren't making good money what's the point to put up with the headaches of running the company. Personally if I was gm, I'd shut it the fuck down, lock all unions out, and hire temporary workers just like CAT did, and let em sit it out. Eventually the temp workers become permanent when the union members have moved on because 250 a week ain't cutting the bills for 2 years. |
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