[ARCHIVED THREAD] - LWRC vs. F&D (Page 2 of 11)
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Oh look, now someone else is being sued. http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/trademark-lawsuits/texas-western-district-court/730005/lwrc-international-inc-v-f-d-defense-llc-et-al/summary/ It seems the shoe is on the other foot now. |
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Something just seems dirty about this whole thing and I can't quit put my finger on it right now. Here's the rub. Constant grandstand ranting with unproven claims. Even if the facts would prove he dreamed up his facts, some may believe what has been written. If he is the founder of the engineering which has helped make L'dub successful I hope he scores big time in court. His behavior here has made me very doubtful. Yep that's what it was thanks. 
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From what I've seen and heard most people are getting around 1.5 MOA with the REPR . I'll know for sure very soon when I take mine out . And , the shooter has a ton to do with this . I'm not going to be using this as a SNIPER rifle and 1.5 MOA or there abouts is going to work just fine for me . Another thing , the REPR doesn't have a lot of the ammo issues that a lot of those so called more accurate 308 autos can have . What I'm more concerned about is having my gun run and keep running with no issues , clean or dirty . If I really want to Snipe I'll take my Sako out . My buddy just got a Gap 10 , GREAT gun and probably more accurate but he had to send it back a week after he got it for adjustments . It seems its finicky with ammo . I like the gun but things like that I don't need from a DMR rifle . It all depends what you wanna do with your gun . The REPR isn't match grade needing march grade ammo , its a work horse putting rounds down range . I see you haven't changed much Wolfy . Still got your sign :) As does an AK-47 for 1/6th of the price. Any rifle over $3k should come with a sub-Moa guarantee... even if every shooter cant bring it to its full potential. |
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From what I've seen and heard most people are getting around 1.5 MOA with the REPR . I'll know for sure very soon when I take mine out . And , the shooter has a ton to do with this . I'm not going to be using this as a SNIPER rifle and 1.5 MOA or there abouts is going to work just fine for me . Another thing , the REPR doesn't have a lot of the ammo issues that a lot of those so called more accurate 308 autos can have . What I'm more concerned about is having my gun run and keep running with no issues , clean or dirty . If I really want to Snipe I'll take my Sako out . My buddy just got a Gap 10 , GREAT gun and probably more accurate but he had to send it back a week after he got it for adjustments . It seems its finicky with ammo . I like the gun but things like that I don't need from a DMR rifle . It all depends what you wanna do with your gun . The REPR isn't match grade needing march grade ammo , its a work horse putting rounds down range . I see you haven't changed much Wolfy . Still got your sign :) As does an AK-47 for 1/6th of the price. Any rifle over $3k should come with a sub-Moa guarantee... even if every shooter cant bring it to its full potential. Are you saying AK's shoot 1.5 MOA ? And , I haven't seen one that shoots 308 . Are they out there ? Can you please tell me which semi auto 308's (piston) that AREN'T ammo finicky are shooting SUB MOA ? I'm not wanting to have to buy match grade ammo all the time to get these results or to even have my weapon function and cycle properly . Maybe I made a mistake in my purchase maybe not . I checked on a few different semi auto 308's . Almost all were having 8 month plus build times . LWRC said 6-8 weeks and ended up getting it to me in 3 weeks . This was very important to me considering the way our GOV is operating . I didn't have one yet and wanted to be sure I did if we were told we can't any longer . LWRC has always treated me great and my LWRC SPR's have been flawless . This also contributed to my decision . When I bought my SPR's I had to listen to Wulfman say the same exact stuff about them as he just did about my REPR . Even had the same story about the PM's he gets from people saying don't buy LWRC . I'm not sure what the problem is . I'm not bashing his PWS . And when people are saying they just bought one I'm not posting shit about how every one PMed me not to buy PWS so I got LWRC . And Mr. Hall , I've never heard of you or your company or seen one of your guns before all of this LWRC bashing has begun , by you I might add . Nobody ever has your guns at the range when I'm there . Had I known anything about them I would considered also . But now after days of your actions on here I'm not sure I'd want to deal with you , even if your gun is a LITTLE BIT more accurate . I have always said if your were wronged by LWRC I hope you get what you deserve , but if your just on here being a hater i wish you would disappear . How do you find time to monitor the forums and piss most people off , build guns , run a business , know everything about LWRC and there employees inside and out , be your own lawyer and sue people ? You must not sleep ! |
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You must not sleep !
Most accurate thing you've said all week. Assumption of "its no good if its not mass produced" is kindof bassackwards. I'm not assuming mass produced is better . Typically LWRC orders take MUCH longer . Both my SPR's did . I just got lucky with my timing on this one . I understand you just can't help yourself because you HATE LWRC . Got it ! |
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You must not sleep !
Most accurate thing you've said all week. Assumption of "its no good if its not mass produced" is kindof bassackwards. I'm not assuming mass produced is better . Typically LWRC orders take MUCH longer . Both my SPR's did . I just got lucky with my timing on this one . I understand you just can't help yourself because you HATE LWRC . Got it ! I don't "hate" LWRCI at all. If they get rid of Mellors and Gomez, I would love for the company to come down to Texas and increase the local competition. Regardless, F&D still builds an objectively better rifle... |
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I do not know the owner of F&D personally but know a few people who do. I also have a few friends who purchased the F&D 308 from the first batch released and have spent a decent amount of time shooting them all. It's a very nice rifle; well made, innovative design and function, reliable and accurate. I have heard through the grapevine about the lawsuit and have read the owner's referenced links. I don't have an opinion on the matter but hope that a just ruling is made based upon the evidence and facts.
My reason for posting is to ask c_hall what owners of his rifles can expect from F&D should the ruling not be in his favor. Would a ruling for LWRC in turn result in F&D loosing production rights to their existing line and would their current customers be left with an unserviceable rifle? I know that those individuals with a F&D rifle who are aware of the lawsuit are worried about the ability to order spare parts should the lawsuit rule in favor of LWRC. c_hall, could you please share your thoughts on this matter. |
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Well, what have we learned? What can be proven without a doubt? 1. Mr. Hall is off his meds. 2. Colt is not trying to buy F&D. 3. Mr. Hall is psychic or he has hidden cameras in L'dub offices. You forgot to add "FACT" after each one, otherwise logically it's just speculation or opinion. FACT... |
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am i missing something, or is this case simply:
c_hall did some work for lwrc many years ago. c_hall was compensated for said work. fast forward many years to now, and c_hall sues LWRC for $12.5M based on _________? it's the blank that i'm having a hard time with. i don't see where/how he's owed anything, let alone $12M. i also didn't bother to read through all that crap. what am i missing? anything? nothing? the ravings of a disgruntled lunatic? |
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I have to say, your rifles look bad ass Mr.Hall. Quality looks top notch, wish I had the money for one. The BCG, the connection of the rail to the upper.. Very cool. Anyone who hasn't went and looked at the rifles this guy is making, check it out. Even if you hate his guts, I doubt you can say f&d rifles are shitty. A .329 group!?! Damn Here's the link for those that don't want to admit to searching for the website or whatever. Fd308 I don't like them. Never heard of them either before this whole incident. I'm wondering if this could possibly be a publicity stunt to garner attention. 
It's just my opinion. Take it for what it is. As a lefty the less I have to do to a rifle out of the box to make it work form me the more I'm going to like it. My IC is ambi. My BEAR/SR15 is ambi. If it was to by one of halls rifles I would already be swapping out the lower for a knights, arfcom, IC, or some other ambi lower. |
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Oh look, now someone else is being sued.
http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/trademark-lawsuits/texas-western-district-court/730005/lwrc-international-inc-v-f-d-defense-llc-et-al/summary/ |
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So question for those that have already made up their mind on who the truthful company is. If Mr. Hall or whatever wins this case, are you guys going to still believe he is a nut and sip on the beverage of your choice? And if Mr. Hall loses... Well I'm pretty sure if he loses we won't hear from him, since more than likely this would burry him. I honestly tend to believe this crazy guy who has provided more evidence to both his lawsuit and the situation with colt and lwrc, simply based on the history of small v large business.. And yes I understand that lwrc is smart to not say anything but you figure there is someone here who knows a guy who knows a cousin of the brother who has a friend that works at lwrc, that would have atleast dropped a tidbit in here about their stance or something.. No?
From a person that could care less about either one of these companies or their products, there are definitely some hardcore fanboys in here. Hey I love the products from the companies I purchase from, but I sure as hell would want answers if this was unmentioned company instead of lwrc. |
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So question for those that have already made up their mind on who the truthful company is. If Mr. Hall or whatever wins this case, are you guys going to still believe he is a nut and sip on the beverage of your choice? And if Mr. Hall loses... Well I'm pretty sure if he loses we won't hear from him, since more than likely this would burry him. I honestly tend to believe this crazy guy who has provided more evidence to both his lawsuit and the situation with colt and lwrc, simply based on the history of small v large business.. And yes I understand that lwrc is smart to not say anything but you figure there is someone here who knows a guy who knows a cousin of the brother who has a friend that works at lwrc, that would have atleast dropped a tidbit in here about their stance or something.. No? From a person that could care less about either one of these companies or their products, there are definitely some hardcore fanboys in here. Hey I love the products from the companies I purchase from, but I sure as hell would want answers if this was unmentioned company instead of lwrc. As to your first question, if he wins then I'll fully support Mr. Hall and cheer for his victory. I'll probably never purchase another LWRC product again either, as it is shameful to attempt to destroy the little guy like that. If he loses, I'll probably not think anything more of it and probably just remember this as "That one time on arfcom" which seems to be a semi regular thing. As to the comment of why hasn't someone who knows someone in LWRC made any comments, again this hearkens back to attorneys telling people to shut up. If someone within talks and tells their friend, and their friends comment here, that is still a dangerous thing. The lack of comments, from any front, is not a symbol of guilt. I'm not defending LWRCI, I'm merely stating that people need to drop the "Well they aren't saying anything so they are clearly guilty" crap. By that logic, whenever we use the right to remain silent, we are clearly guilty or we would be happily talking. There is nothing to gain for LWRCI, by posting in a forum about a pending lawsuit. There is also nothing to gain for them telling their friends cousins nephews former roommate. We do want answers, we just aren't willing to take everything for face value from one side of the equation. We are wanting this to play out in the proper fashion, not in a forum brawl. |
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Mrc44, I directly know people at LWRC, no back channel 3rd party brothers cousin stuff. As to the lawsuit I haven't heard a peep Just like Zerlak said this is how a business should handle a lawsuit. On the flip side F&D seems to be run like a third grade jungle gym with the "I'm telling!" "You're a doodie face!" that c_halls posts are reminiscent of. |
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I have to say, your rifles look bad ass Mr.Hall. Quality looks top notch, wish I had the money for one. The BCG, the connection of the rail to the upper.. Very cool. Anyone who hasn't went and looked at the rifles this guy is making, check it out. Even if you hate his guts, I doubt you can say f&d rifles are shitty. A .329 group!?! Damn Here's the link for those that don't want to admit to searching for the website or whatever. Fd308 I don't like them. Never heard of them either before this whole incident. I'm wondering if this could possibly be a publicity stunt to garner attention.
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Those are pretty impressive looking rifles. A question for Mr. Hall: are the barrels nitrided? I looked through the website and didn't see anything about barrel treatment. What about the bolt carriers? Are they NiB? I'm not supposed to promote F&D products until after an industry partner spot opens up. So you can private message me and I will respond to your questions. I can however say that, Nitriding and cryo-treatment of barrels is 95% gimmickry. These processes do very little (if anything) to improve performance and life of barrels. They cannot, in any way, increase the inherent accuracy of a non-treated barrel. Precision barrels should be left alone after rifling and lapping, as at this point in the manufacturing process the barrel has not been degraded by any post-process and is in its most stable form (straight with little bore run-out and no bore diameter influences). These $3000+ rifles are not intended to be your "spray-and-pray" type weapons. There are numerous proven weapons systems that serve that application well, but they generally will be non-performers past 500yds. For quality builds, I recommend the use of only high-end barrels blanks from guys like Brux, Krieger, Bartlein, Lilja, Rock, Lothar-Walther, and Schneider with no post-treatment or coating processes applied. Another practicality aspect to consider.... if you can afford 10,000 rounds of decent match 308 ammo ($15,000-$25,000) then you can surely afford a replacement barrel here and there. |
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You must not sleep !
Most accurate thing you've said all week. Assumption of "its no good if its not mass produced" is kindof bassackwards. I'm not assuming mass produced is better . Typically LWRC orders take MUCH longer . Both my SPR's did . I just got lucky with my timing on this one . I understand you just can't help yourself because you HATE LWRC . Got it ! I don't "hate" LWRCI at all. If they get rid of Mellors and Gomez, I would love for the company to come down to Texas and increase the local competition. Regardless, F&D still builds an objectively better rifle... And that is your opinion, which has proven itself pretty twisted. I see no one else bragging about how great their f&d rifle is? Nobody, where's the love? I'll chime in again to add something real to this thread since almost all of it is hearsay and conjecture. I have never met Corby in person but have spoken to him twice over the phone and know three individuals who know him personally. I highly doubt he knows who I am, although he may know of me or my company. Through recommendations from myself, I have a few close friends who own a F&D .308 ( different individuals than the three mentioned above who know Corby personally ). I was able to spend some time shooting one of Corby's first .308's off the line and was very impressed; enough to feel comfortable letting three close friends spend over $3k for a rifle they knew nothing about. All three of those individuals are very pleased with their rifle. Two of them shoot it regularly. One of them has put over a thousand rounds through his. Only one of the three rifles has had an issue, which was a result of out of spec ammo. In fact, three different .308's, all high end rifles, lost an extractor from that bad batch of factory ammo ( LT, F&D, N6 - Federal 7.62x51 FMJ ). The F&D .308 is very well made, highly accurate and is nice to look at. I own the LT and N6 previously mentioned and it stacks up with both. The LT has proven to be the most accurate of the three, and the nicer of the three in my humble opinion. Again, I do not know c_hall personally and he does not know me, and I will not comment on the lawsuit and honestly don't care. This post is for the sole purpose of providing actual first hand knowledge to this cluster fuck of a thread. My only dog in the fight was a questioned answered earlier by c_hall as to what owners of the F&D could expect from the manufacturer should he loose his lawsuit. |
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Something just seems dirty about this whole thing and I can't quit put my finger on it right now. Here's the rub. Constant grandstand ranting with unproven claims. Even if the facts would prove he dreamed up his facts, some may believe what has been written. If he is the founder of the engineering which has helped make L'dub successful I hope he scores big time in court. His behavior here has made me very doubtful. |
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A few years ago I wanted a REPR. I just thought it was the hottest 308 AR anyone ever dreamed of and familiar with LWRC quality and accuracy I mentioned my desire and eventual intention on this forum. What was intriguing was the IMs and some emails (from those who knew that) basically telling me I would be very disappointed in accuracy. However, none of these people wanted the flak from the fan boys that attack people for saying anything but devote worship for LWRC products. I can attest to their devotion to their brand and felt the sting many times although interestingly most have now come to feel i was not so wrong about PWS. Now, I don't buy personalities just like I didn't date good personalities when I was younger. Fact is after much discussion with REPR owners I feel it is a fine combat 308 AR but no sniper. The SR25 and Les Baer 308 snipers are true snipers with excellent accuracy but they are DI and it seemed a 308 piston AR that could match a Baer was not possible. Now, I can't say at this point if the FD 308s are all claimed but the pictures look incredible and the claims look promising and if anyone here thinks your brand loyalty sometimes blindly so will mean Scheise to me in what I buy you don't remember passed threads with me. If, and I say if, I lean towards a 308 sniper I will consider the FD but not the LWRC and that is not any disrespect to LWRC it just means I buy what I want, what I feel suits me and not what makes fanboys jerk off too. That said LWRCS SPR ICs are the nicest AR15/M4s being made (IMO) although the PWS MK1 Mod1 is still a better value and more practical gun as a shooter so I am not LWRC basher just feel the REPR is a combat rifle not a sniper and comparing it to the various snipers is just not fair to it. What it does it does well Seems like MR Hall does not understand the feelings of the LWRCI base which is: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/Wulfmann/LWRC-sign.jpg Wulfmann From what I've seen and heard most people are getting around 1.5 MOA with the REPR . I'll know for sure very soon when I take mine out . And , the shooter has a ton to do with this . I'm not going to be using this as a SNIPER rifle and 1.5 MOA or there abouts is going to work just fine for me . Another thing , the REPR doesn't have a lot of the ammo issues that a lot of those so called more accurate 308 autos can have . What I'm more concerned about is having my gun run and keep running with no issues , clean or dirty . If I really want to Snipe I'll take my Sako out . My buddy just got a Gap 10 , GREAT gun and probably more accurate but he had to send it back a week after he got it for adjustments . It seems its finicky with ammo . I like the gun but things like that I don't need from a DMR rifle . It all depends what you wanna do with your gun . The REPR isn't match grade needing march grade ammo , its a work horse putting rounds down range . I see you haven't changed much Wolfy . Still got your sign :) |
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Quoted: Quoted: IF Mr. Nutjob is proven the victim I would never buy another L'dub. Right or wrong I would never buy anything F&D based on his performance here. I bet you do... you know you want to. Never. I'm very satisfied with my LWRC's and dropping down to something like a F&D rifle would be akin to dropping to a bushmaster piston gun |
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Something just seems dirty about this whole thing and I can't quit put my finger on it right now. How you liking your new IC? I freaking love mine bro If I could have sex with it....... Seriously. It's my favorite AR I own right now. The ambi controls are awesome. Went to the small arms range and I was reaching for shit on my M16 that wasn't there. |
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IF Mr. Nutjob is proven the victim I would never buy another L'dub. Right or wrong I would never buy anything F&D based on his performance here. I bet you do... you know you want to. Never. I'm very satisfied with my LWRC's and dropping down to something like a F&D rifle would be akin to dropping to a bushmaster piston gun Not related to the case at all, but having gone over an F&D gun, and knowing what machines he is making them on, I can give my personal opinion that they are extremely well made in my eye... They are a very nice gun, and especially for what he is asking for them. Continue previous case discussion.. GAME ON!!! 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Something just seems dirty about this whole thing and I can't quit put my finger on it right now. How you liking your new IC? I freaking love mine bro If I could have sex with it....... Seriously. It's my favorite AR I own right now. The ambi controls are awesome. Went to the small arms range and I was reaching for shit on my M16 that wasn't there. Agreed. My wife did catch me snuggled with mine in the bed the other night. Only complaint I have on it is the Ambi-safty selector is a bit to slick for my liking. I can manipulate it fine with gloves but without I sometimes slip my finger right off. Think I will be changing that out to a BAD-ASS soon
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Something just seems dirty about this whole thing and I can't quit put my finger on it right now. How you liking your new IC? I freaking love mine bro If I could have sex with it....... Seriously. It's my favorite AR I own right now. The ambi controls are awesome. Went to the small arms range and I was reaching for shit on my M16 that wasn't there. Agreed. My wife did catch me snuggled with mine in the bed the other night. Only complaint I have on it is the Ambi-safty selector is a bit to slick for my liking. I can manipulate it fine with gloves but without I sometimes slip my finger right off. Think I will be changing that out to a BAD-ASS soon |