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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:49:37 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means... But keep digging by all means. Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:52:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Learjet 35A Fuel Tanks Explained
 Learjet 35A Fuel Tanks Explained | Subscriber Requested! |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:53:57 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bottom pic. Is that's what's left of the plane?  Yes. It exploded on impact. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:55:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:57:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Nvm
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:58:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? Her only purpose in this thread is to troll and derail it. Don’t give her the satisfaction by engaging. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 2:58:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No patient onboard. Plus a 9400 foot runway was 12 miles away. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:00:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:04:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head (to see below the structure/frame) down while in the turn? At that point that's when the pilot places his head firmly between his legs and kisses his ass goodbye. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:07:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would take too long to explain why Gryder's wrong. He's technically kinda right about a minor point (that there's no industry-standard Vapp Maneuvering Speed), but in the big picture conceptually he's wrong...and he thinks the entire industry is wrong for not thinking his minor point isn't the biggest, most important thing in the history of aviation. The bottom line is, those guys are not at the bottom of a smoking hole simply because they were not trained to use Gryder's Magic Airspeed. There is a judgment/decisionmaking error-chain occurring well before Gryder's magic airspeed that got them into the position where they tried to turn tighter than their jet could perform. Lear guys: what's the normal runway lateral displacement for downwind? From the data plots so far, they were less than a mile from the 27 centerline at the downwind's widest point. This seems too tight to me, but most of my small jet experience is in Cat D and E aircraft. By my estimation, something like 1 1/4 or 1.5 miles is a more appropriate pattern size when below the normal VFR pattern altitude, but that's a guess based on slightly faster airplanes. As a visual reference I put the tip tank on top of the runway when flying downwind. It always worked for me. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:08:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryAmazing and horrifying perspective. Mercy. 
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:12:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. It exploded on impact. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bottom pic. Is that's what's left of the plane? Yes. It exploded on impact. Rapid unscheduled disassembly |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:16:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryWas waiting for someone to put the video together, syncing it with the ATC audio |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:16:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? Like TOT stated if you are looking out the front or side window of the aircraft you are heads up no matter how your head is craned. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:24:17 PM EDT
[#15]
  
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:26:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? If you roll the jet over far enough, you can’t see anything but the ground. Does that make you happy? Do you feel validated now? Some of us have considerable time flying in the high speed low level environment. I get the feeling that you don’t. Do you agree? |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:51:31 PM EDT
[#17]
He was about 375' AGL as he crossed the airport. It's hard to make a downwind displaced by 1 1/2 mile that low. He brought the downwind in tight. It may have looked like a downwind he would have flown at 1000' but he was much closer. Looking at the plot on G Earth, it looks to me like he didn't overshoot base to final. If he hadn't overbanked, he might have swung out a little, likely able to correct.
We get only one mistake like that per customer. That was his. It's hard to point at one thing in this case and say, Ahaa, that's it. It was a long series of little deviations, none of which was illegal or all that bad. But when they compounded, you have a mess. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 3:58:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a visual reference I put the tip tank on top of the runway when flying downwind. It always worked for me. That's exactly the rub. The tip-tank reference is only valid at pattern altitude. Using that reference at IFR circling altitude doesn't produce the same lateral displacement. So, I was really wondering about the lateral distance, because that distance is the same at VFR pattern altitude as it is at IFR circling mins. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 4:09:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He was about 375' AGL as he crossed the airport. It's hard to make a downwind displaced by 1 1/2 mile that low. He brought the downwind in tight. It may have looked like a downwind he would have flown at 1000' but he was much closer. Looking at the plot on G Earth, it looks to me like he didn't overshoot base to final. If he hadn't overbanked, he might have swung out a little, likely able to correct. A couple things: - Despite that it might be "hard" (I'm assuming you mean "hard to keep the runway in sight while circling that wide") to get the correct lateral displacement in the circle at that altitude, that's what's required by the performance of the aircraft. Physics doesn't change just because it is low vis...and that's a reason to not attempt the circling approach in and of itself in those conditions. - He didn't physically overshoot final because he stalled and crashed first. The turn radii in the surface track plot shows he wouldn't have made final with the turn he had going...and needed to start the base turn wider. - Yes, he probably could have overshot the extended centerline of 27 and still corrected back in enough time for a stable approach and landing, but he appears to have made the classic mistake of trying to tighten the turn rather than accept the flightpath overshoot. I think we're all in agreement that it was a bad decision to accept the circle to begin with, but if we found ourselves in that position of a late visual acquisition of the runway (or whatever his issue was), the answer is to go around, and not to try and fix an overshooting final turn. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 4:11:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Sure, you start. Go ahead and list all those aircraft types you know of where that's an issue at 20-30 degrees of bank in the pattern. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 4:45:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. I may or may not know about two pilots in a T-1 (beechjet) both head down in Wichita, leveled at 6,000' both looking feverishly for a point, while climb power was still set. Doing 300 kts and rapidly accelerating.  People always talk about doing 60 to 1 rule things until its time to do 60 to 1 rule things. Gotta do the math if you're gonna circle. Mach minus 2 is a good technique as well for calculating your turn radius. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 5:11:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? Actually, when I'm in a 60° bank at 300' I'm generally looking up when I'm looking out the side of the windscreen. If you're low, in a bank, and looking straight down at something you're not going to land on it under any circumstances. Angles....how do they work? |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 5:25:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Some of us have considerable time flying in the high speed low level environment. I get the feeling that you don’t. Do you agree? I'm pretty sure he's about a 20 year old flight-sim player. I get that feeling in every airplane thread he shits all over. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 6:44:29 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? And during this time, the co-pilot would be keeping the airport in sight from his seat. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 9:17:07 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mach minus 2 is a good technique as well for calculating your turn radius. This is good gouge. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 9:24:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. It exploded on impact. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bottom pic. Is that's what's left of the plane? Yes. It exploded on impact. ...and we are back where we started--11 pages later. I'm surprised that they could even get fingerprints after that fire. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 9:36:39 PM EDT
[#27]
This thread delivers. I have now learned that heads up is actually heads down in a bank. Brilliant.
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Posted: 12/30/2021 9:58:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? How about you list IN DETAIL your real world flying experience. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 10:00:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This thread delivers. I have now learned that heads up is actually heads down in a bank. Brilliant. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 10:16:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Draw a straight line along the same axis as the runway, out toward the approach end and beyond. That is the "extended centerline". When turning onto the final approach path, you should really not be banking any more than a standard 30 degree bank, and you should be rolling out right on that line, lined up with the runway, right on that extended centerline. "Overshooting final" means you blew past that line making the turn. Increasing your bank angle to try and make a sharper turn to avoid overshooting that lineup, increases the load factor on the airplane which in turn increases the speed at which the airplane will stall. And generally during the approach you are already at a low airspeed. Sometimes you misjudge your distance from the centerline and begin the turn too late. Sometimes a tailwind picks up and pushes you past that extended centerline. Sometimes, your airspeed is higher than usual and so you don't begin your turn onto the centerline soon enough, overshooting your lineup. Regardless of how it happens, increasing your bank beyond the normal, and ham fisting the airplane trying to avoid the overshoot at low altitude and in a low energy state is a well known recipe for a unrecoverable stall/spin into the ground. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 10:22:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kinda like when your typical Arfcommer posts on M4C that his Shrubmaster is "just as good as" a KAC and gets put in his place by real life face shooters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Which is why most GD Aviation topics tend to go to shit. I tend to STFU on these, there are folks who do this for a living and know what they're talking about, a helluva lot more than I do. Kinda like when your typical Arfcommer posts on M4C that his Shrubmaster is "just as good as" a KAC and gets put in his place by real life face shooters. The only thing shot at M4C is ropes of manly essence. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 10:27:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are so far outside your lane you've lapped yourself and are too obtuse to notice your own butt flying by. How about you list IN DETAIL your real world flying experience. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? How about you list IN DETAIL your real world flying experience. He's said in the past he's Private Pilot Single Engine. I figure no amount of info beyond that really matters. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 11:14:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's said in the past he's Private Pilot Single Engine. I figure no amount of info beyond that really matters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? How about you list IN DETAIL your real world flying experience. He's said in the past he's Private Pilot Single Engine. I figure no amount of info beyond that really matters. |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 11:58:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's said in the past he's Private Pilot Single Engine. I figure no amount of info beyond that really matters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? How about you list IN DETAIL your real world flying experience. He's said in the past he's Private Pilot Single Engine. I figure no amount of info beyond that really matters. Don't put all ASELs in his box.
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Posted: 12/30/2021 11:59:15 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Draw a straight line along the same axis as the runway, out toward the approach end and beyond. That is the "extended centerline". When turning onto the final approach path, you should really not be banking any more than a standard 30 degree bank, and you should be rolling out right on that line, lined up with the runway, right on that extended centerline. "Overshooting final" means you blew past that line making the turn. Increasing your bank angle to try and make a sharper turn to avoid overshooting that lineup, increases the load factor on the airplane which in turn increases the speed at which the airplane will stall. And generally during the approach you are already at a low airspeed. Sometimes you misjudge your distance from the centerline and begin the turn too late. Sometimes a tailwind picks up and pushes you past that extended centerline. Sometimes, your airspeed is higher than usual and so you don't begin your turn onto the centerline soon enough, overshooting your lineup. Regardless of how it happens, increasing your bank beyond the normal, and ham fisting the airplane trying to avoid the overshoot at low altitude and in a low energy state is a well known recipe for a unrecoverable stall/spin into the ground. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Those of you in the know mention "over shoot" with the circle approach technique. Is this term used because 1) pilot needs to have more speed to do this turn, and 2) runway may not be long enough to handle that increase speed? Thanks, Draw a straight line along the same axis as the runway, out toward the approach end and beyond. That is the "extended centerline". When turning onto the final approach path, you should really not be banking any more than a standard 30 degree bank, and you should be rolling out right on that line, lined up with the runway, right on that extended centerline. "Overshooting final" means you blew past that line making the turn. Increasing your bank angle to try and make a sharper turn to avoid overshooting that lineup, increases the load factor on the airplane which in turn increases the speed at which the airplane will stall. And generally during the approach you are already at a low airspeed. Sometimes you misjudge your distance from the centerline and begin the turn too late. Sometimes a tailwind picks up and pushes you past that extended centerline. Sometimes, your airspeed is higher than usual and so you don't begin your turn onto the centerline soon enough, overshooting your lineup. Regardless of how it happens, increasing your bank beyond the normal, and ham fisting the airplane trying to avoid the overshoot at low altitude and in a low energy state is a well known recipe for a unrecoverable stall/spin into the ground. Nice explanation. I’ll just add that you should be rolled out and wings level on that extended centerline somewhere beyond the threshold. Probably depends on what you’re flying, but in the B707 we shot for about 1/2 mile to 3/4 mile (iirc). |
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Posted: 12/30/2021 11:59:23 PM EDT
[#36]
 Family launches GoFundMe for man killed in El Cajon plane crash |
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Posted: 12/31/2021 1:38:12 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't put all ASELs in his box. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? How about you list IN DETAIL your real world flying experience. He's said in the past he's Private Pilot Single Engine. I figure no amount of info beyond that really matters. Don't put all ASELs in his box. No, no. I've got no problem with ASELs. I just expect them to act like well-balanced humans. Talk like an expert only on those things you're expert on, and cautiously at that. I've been a pilot for 30 years. 22 of them professionally. But I don't go spouting off in fighter pilot threads like I've been-there done-that (even if I've read up on the topic) because I wasn't a fighter pilot. Likewise, I've been a shooter my whole life but I don't pretend I'm a door kicker in a thread with actual door kickers. I'm not exactly telling people to "stay in their lanes". But you'd at least better know where the boundaries of it are or someone's gonna call you on your bullshit. But this little dick, big ego syndrome is the kinda shit that causes fire fighters to pretend they're professional pilots. It's symptomatic of someone that wants to be something bigger and better than they are and it's sad to watch. Harnessed healthily as motivation, that attitude can be beneficial and serve as a driving force. But all too often those types don't want to do the work and earn the wings. They just want to pretend they did and go straight to the cocky attitude. Then they start saying stupid shit they've heard about but didn't understand, like "heads down means I'm looking out the window at the ground". Worse yet, the micro-dick types will attempt to defend and justify the misstatement. Next thing you know it explodes in their face. |
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Posted: 12/31/2021 1:47:54 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, no. I've got no problem with ASELs. I just expect them to act like well-balanced humans. Talk like an expert only on those things you're expert on, and cautiously at that. I've been a pilot for 30 years. 22 of them professionally. But I don't go spouting off in fighter pilot threads like I've been-there done-that (even if I've read up on the topic) because I wasn't a fighter pilot. Likewise, I've been a shooter my whole life but I don't pretend I'm a door kicker in a thread with actual door kickers. I'm not exactly telling people to "stay in their lanes". But you'd at least better know where the boundaries of it are or someone's gonna call you on your bullshit. But this little dick, big ego syndrome is the kinda shit that causes fire fighters to pretend they're professional pilots. It's symptomatic of someone that wants to be something bigger and better than they are and it's sad to watch. Harnessed healthily as motivation, that attitude can be beneficial and serve as a driving force. But all too often those types don't want to do the work and earn the wings. They just want to pretend they did and go straight to the cocky attitude. Then they start saying stupid shit they've heard about but didn't understand, like "heads down means I'm looking out the window at the ground". Worse yet, the micro-dick types will attempt to defend and justify the misstatement. Next thing you know it explodes in their face. Yeah, but does it really “explode”?  (Sorry man, you left that one hanging and I couldn’t pass it up) 
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Posted: 12/31/2021 2:10:22 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, but does it really “explode”? (Sorry man, you left that one hanging and I couldn’t pass it up) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, no. I've got no problem with ASELs. I just expect them to act like well-balanced humans. Talk like an expert only on those things you're expert on, and cautiously at that. I've been a pilot for 30 years. 22 of them professionally. But I don't go spouting off in fighter pilot threads like I've been-there done-that (even if I've read up on the topic) because I wasn't a fighter pilot. Likewise, I've been a shooter my whole life but I don't pretend I'm a door kicker in a thread with actual door kickers. I'm not exactly telling people to "stay in their lanes". But you'd at least better know where the boundaries of it are or someone's gonna call you on your bullshit. But this little dick, big ego syndrome is the kinda shit that causes fire fighters to pretend they're professional pilots. It's symptomatic of someone that wants to be something bigger and better than they are and it's sad to watch. Harnessed healthily as motivation, that attitude can be beneficial and serve as a driving force. But all too often those types don't want to do the work and earn the wings. They just want to pretend they did and go straight to the cocky attitude. Then they start saying stupid shit they've heard about but didn't understand, like "heads down means I'm looking out the window at the ground". Worse yet, the micro-dick types will attempt to defend and justify the misstatement. Next thing you know it explodes in their face. Yeah, but does it really “explode”? (Sorry man, you left that one hanging and I couldn’t pass it up) That might've been intentional. 
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Posted: 12/31/2021 6:04:19 AM EDT
[#40]
LOL
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Posted: 12/31/2021 7:52:52 AM EDT
[#41]
The pilots voice was so calm and confident as he made his turning approach. It sounds like someone in the background initially asked the runway lights be turned up. It sure seems like he mistook the road for the runway.
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Posted: 12/31/2021 8:23:03 AM EDT
[#42]
Right to the scene of the crash.
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Posted: 12/31/2021 8:32:14 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The pilots voice was so calm and confident as he made his turning approach. It sounds like someone in the background initially asked the runway lights be turned up. It sure seems like he mistook the road for the runway. Calm voice during critical phase of flight, in marginal conditions, gives indication of not being the first time he did this and succeeded. Except this time he ran out of skill before touchdown. |
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Posted: 12/31/2021 9:05:39 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, but does it really “explode”? (Sorry man, you left that one hanging and I couldn’t pass it up) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, no. I've got no problem with ASELs. I just expect them to act like well-balanced humans. Talk like an expert only on those things you're expert on, and cautiously at that. I've been a pilot for 30 years. 22 of them professionally. But I don't go spouting off in fighter pilot threads like I've been-there done-that (even if I've read up on the topic) because I wasn't a fighter pilot. Likewise, I've been a shooter my whole life but I don't pretend I'm a door kicker in a thread with actual door kickers. I'm not exactly telling people to "stay in their lanes". But you'd at least better know where the boundaries of it are or someone's gonna call you on your bullshit. But this little dick, big ego syndrome is the kinda shit that causes fire fighters to pretend they're professional pilots. It's symptomatic of someone that wants to be something bigger and better than they are and it's sad to watch. Harnessed healthily as motivation, that attitude can be beneficial and serve as a driving force. But all too often those types don't want to do the work and earn the wings. They just want to pretend they did and go straight to the cocky attitude. Then they start saying stupid shit they've heard about but didn't understand, like "heads down means I'm looking out the window at the ground". Worse yet, the micro-dick types will attempt to defend and justify the misstatement. Next thing you know it explodes in their face. Yeah, but does it really “explode”? (Sorry man, you left that one hanging and I couldn’t pass it up) It's bad when a micro dick explodes. |
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Posted: 12/31/2021 9:15:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's said in the past he's Private Pilot Single Engine. I figure no amount of info beyond that really matters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have pointed out to you several times now that the term "heads down" refers to when a pilot is inside, looking down at a display, usually the "box", and "heads up" is when a pilot is visually looking outside the cockpit at visual references. In multi crewed aircraft, one of the golden rules is that both pilots should never be heads down at the same time. A heads up display allows a pilot to look outside and still see critical instruments. A head up display can be permanently mounted in front of the pilot or attached to NVGs which allow a pilot to look to the side while hovering a helicopter for example. Do you understand? You didn't answer my questions And no I'm not talking about "terms" as you say, but the actual act just as I asked in the two questions... Again Do you disagree that there are multiple situations and aircraft types where while in a bank you have to crane your head down to see below the structure/window frame when looking out the side windows? Do you disagree that in this instance the pilot would have been likely trying to keep the airfield in sight out the left window by ducking his head down while in the turn? How about you list IN DETAIL your real world flying experience. He's said in the past he's Private Pilot Single Engine. I figure no amount of info beyond that really matters. If a person with a serious aviation fetish, despite a privileged childhood, failed to become a professional pilot, they might end up something like this. It’s a very sad fate. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. |
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Posted: 12/31/2021 9:56:19 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, no. I've got no problem with ASELs. I just expect them to act like well-balanced humans. Talk like an expert only on those things you're expert on, and cautiously at that. I've been a pilot for 30 years. 22 of them professionally. But I don't go spouting off in fighter pilot threads like I've been-there done-that (even if I've read up on the topic) because I wasn't a fighter pilot. Likewise, I've been a shooter my whole life but I don't pretend I'm a door kicker in a thread with actual door kickers. I'm not exactly telling people to "stay in their lanes". But you'd at least better know where the boundaries of it are or someone's gonna call you on your bullshit. But this little dick, big ego syndrome is the kinda shit that causes fire fighters to pretend they're professional pilots. It's symptomatic of someone that wants to be something bigger and better than they are and it's sad to watch. Harnessed healthily as motivation, that attitude can be beneficial and serve as a driving force. But all too often those types don't want to do the work and earn the wings. They just want to pretend they did and go straight to the cocky attitude. Then they start saying stupid shit they've heard about but didn't understand, like "heads down means I'm looking out the window at the ground". Worse yet, the micro-dick types will attempt to defend and justify the misstatement. Next thing you know it explodes in their face. Well stated Vne. Reading Tillerman’s posts is cringe worthy. Y’all have been so patient with him. |
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Posted: 12/31/2021 10:46:53 AM EDT
[#47]
Loosely related, but I've watched Air Disasters episodes pretty much non-stop the past few days.
Accident investigations are fascinating. As someone who spent hours watching planes land at commercial airports, listened to aircraft on scanners and used to memorize commercial flight schedules when they were published in little paper books I've always found aircraft and flying amazing. I've been blessed to fly commercially heavily for the past 10 years for work. You know you travel a lot when you recognize crews and they say hello to you. I used to get some really odd looks on commercial flights as I read books about various aircraft accident investigations. As a layperson it's fascinating how the chain builds and then everything unravels almost instantly. Much respect to all of you who fly as a profession. |
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Posted: 12/31/2021 11:19:41 AM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 12/31/2021 12:08:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Life long aviation enthusiast here. Got my PP/SEL ticket in 1976 at 17 (to tie it into this thread, the club I was in was based at MYF but I soloed at SEE). Things didn't work out the way I had hoped career-wise, and my last flight hour was recorded in 1978; nevertheless, that whole experience gave me a feeling of confidence that I leaned on throughout my life. I guess you could say ILAFFT became ILALFT.
Anyway, all that to say that I very much appreciate having the adults with domain expertise sharing their insight and speculation in threads like this. Please continue! |
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Posted: 12/31/2021 12:18:18 PM EDT
[#50]
The base to final turn is like being in a stock car on the 33° banked track at Talladega Speedway. You are looking at the top of the windscreen not out the left window. I personally limit my turns to less than 30° and really try to stay closer to 25° in pattern turns. When that crew canceled IFR and passed midfield they both had their backs to the runway. They started the turn to 27R very early because they knew the terrain out there. Coming around the corner they didn’t see what they expected to see and asked for the lights. When you are desperately looking for something blocked just beyond the top of the wind screen you instinctively pull back on the yoke. I’ve been stuck at that airport because I couldn’t make the climb gradient to legally get out. The weather wasn’t that bad but I was on a 135 leg and couldn’t depart VFR.  Attached File |
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