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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:11:48 AM EDT
[#1]
I think the pilot made a similar mistake as Bud Holland in the B-52H at Fairchild AFB back in 1994. While Bud Holland was hotdogging and knowingly exceeded maximums (and minimums) on a regular basis and the guy flying this Learjet probably wasn't, the end result was the same. Bud Holland exceeded safe bank angle, got too slow coming around the turn, lost lift on his left wing and was too close to the ground to recover when the aircraft inevitably stalled.
 B 52 JET AIRCRAFT CRASH At Fairchild Air Force base. All Hell Breaks Loose by Roy Dawson video I bet when all is said and done, the mechanics of these two accidents will end up being very similar, though for much different reasons. This Learjet pilot likely lost a great deal of awareness about what his aircraft was doing by being overly focused on what was going on outside the cockpit. He probably turned a bit too tight, let his airspeed get too low, then his left wing lost lift and he stalled. By the time he realized the trouble he was in, it was too late to save the aircraft and all he could do was the ride the aircraft into the ground, just as that B-52 crew had to do in 1994. If the same thing happened at 10,000 feet, you might have a shot at recovering. But at 500 feet? No way in hell. At that point, a pilot is just another helpless passenger. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:13:55 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been on a few commercial flights over the years that circled the airport before landing. Like 737 type aircraft. What is different about that vs a Learjet doing it? I mean, it's not uncommon for large commercial jets to sort of loiter before coming in on final, is it? Honestly just curious. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Instructor at FSI flat out told me circling, at minimums, in a jet, is stupid. I agree. No shit. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I've been on a few commercial flights over the years that circled the airport before landing. Like 737 type aircraft. What is different about that vs a Learjet doing it? I mean, it's not uncommon for large commercial jets to sort of loiter before coming in on final, is it? Honestly just curious. Airliners will do Circle maneuvers, but typically won’t do them at IFR minimums at night. They will definitely never do them where it’s prohibited. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:22:22 AM EDT
[#3]
 Aviation expert discusses deadly El Cajon plane crash |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:31:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FWIW: KSEE 280255Z VRB05KT 3SM BR BKN020 OVC026 10/08 A2998 Yuck. A circle to land with 3 miles vis, 2,000 broken with mist at night? In a jet? |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:39:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yuck. A circle to land with 3 miles vis, 2,000 broken with mist at night? In a jet? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: FWIW: KSEE 280255Z VRB05KT 3SM BR BKN020 OVC026 10/08 A2998 Yuck. A circle to land with 3 miles vis, 2,000 broken with mist at night? In a jet? Yup. With terrain surrounding. Hard pass. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:47:32 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. With terrain surrounding. Hard pass. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: FWIW: KSEE 280255Z VRB05KT 3SM BR BKN020 OVC026 10/08 A2998 Yuck. A circle to land with 3 miles vis, 2,000 broken with mist at night? In a jet? Yup. With terrain surrounding. Hard pass. My hours behind the yoke barely reach into two digits and even I know that. Sad situation. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:49:21 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe it was yet another instrument approach then circle to land casualty. They kill so many pilots in unforgiving fast aircraft. Initially looks to be really similar to the Teterboro crash a few years ago. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:51:13 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" You’re probably a lot of fun at parties |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 1:13:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Went back and looked at the OP video again. Unfortunately had to listen to the last moments a few times to get the timeline.
At about 1:00 in the video, he says the first "Oh Shit". About 4 seconds later, the audio cuts out at impact. So, I looked at the security camera right before it and found the point of impact, then backed up 4 seconds. It's right around then that you really hear the engines spool back up. It's definitely in a steep bank, and then starts going down. I think you guys are right. Got too slow in the turn, and didn't notice. They threw the throttles open at or around the time of that first "oh shit", but it was unrecoverable at that point. Because it's charter, will that plane have FDR/black box with audio? That may not have been all that was happening in the cockpit at the time, and he may have keyed the transmit when he was white-knuckling the yoke. There might have been discussion in the cockpit just prior to that that might be illuminating. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 1:15:51 AM EDT
[#10]
Damn. Lear 35A one of my favorite birds. Lost a red one from my town a few years ago a Teterboro. My NetJets captain buddy had talked to those guys in Philly shortly before it happened.
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Posted: 12/29/2021 1:22:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You’re probably a lot of fun at parties Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" You’re probably a lot of fun at parties  Attached File |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 1:28:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: looks like he was banking hard and lost altitude rapidly. Engine sounded like they were working. I found this website explaining bank angle and lift. Not saying it is what happened but I thought Id post it. https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/aerodynamics/why-does-aircraft-stall-speed-increase-with-bank-angle-aerodynamically/ Prayers for those affected. 
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Posted: 12/29/2021 1:29:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Chopper overhead view
 Chopper 8 over plane crash in El Cajon area after no survivors found |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 1:33:40 AM EDT
[#14]
Company is called Aeromedevac Air Ambulance. All of there social media pages are down including their website.
More http://www.aeromedevac.com/ |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 2:10:21 AM EDT
[#15]
My guess is he turned too tight with too little speed. Then stall and fall.
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Posted: 12/29/2021 2:30:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn! Listening to that pilot in his last moments. One of the saddest things I ever did for Navy Aircrew training was Cockpit Resource Management Training was have to listen to cockpit recordings and tower recordings of Military and Civilian crashes. Many radio calls end in "What the Fuck!" or "Oh SHIT!". |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 2:32:49 AM EDT
[#17]
What a stupid fuckin mistake to make. They did it entirely to themselves.
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Posted: 12/29/2021 2:38:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad that facts hurt your feels Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pedantic Sad that facts hurt your feels Wow, you're the edgiest of the edgy badasses of this site. Wow. What a sick burn. For anyone that doesn't know, that's his schtick. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 2:58:59 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wow, you're the edgiest of the edgy badasses of this site. Wow. What a sick burn. For anyone that doesn't know, that's his schtick. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Pedantic Sad that facts hurt your feels Wow, you're the edgiest of the edgy badasses of this site. Wow. What a sick burn. For anyone that doesn't know, that's his schtick. Yep. He's also a chronic fucking liar and is mostly full of shit. Why a known troll is allowed to exist on this site is beyond me. I strongly suspect he's a recycle. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 5:11:39 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Check the gradient on arrival, and it only gets you to 1500' AGL. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There’s a LOC approach. To 27R.  Check the gradient on arrival, and it only gets you to 1500' AGL. Yeah my bad. Straight in is obviously not going to work. Still, straight in to 17 should have. Short but it’d fit. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 5:15:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. He's also a chronic fucking liar and is mostly full of shit. Why a known troll is allowed to exist on this site is beyond me. I strongly suspect he's a recycle. Trolls are given free reign while longtime members are either banned or simply stop posting. It’s sad. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 5:20:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trolls are given free reign while longtime members are either banned or simply stop posting. It’s sad. Since you are a Redfish expert, my neighbor caught a 4 pounder yesterday and gave it to me. Ever smoked Redfish ? |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 5:34:49 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since you are a Redfish expert, my neighbor caught a 4 pounder yesterday and gave it to me. Ever smoked Redfish ? We usually cook them “on the halfshell” Take both filets off. Place skin side down on foil. (You don’t need to scale them if you don’t want to) Add some button ter, seasoning as desired. Close foil around the filets and place on grill. EZPZ Of course there’s always blackened redfish. Some say cliché, I say classic preparation. I’ve had smoked redfish but I personally wouldn’t waste a fresh one that way. I usually only smoke mullet, Spanish mackerel, kingfish. Now if you wanted to do a quick cold smoke before sautéing the redfish, I could get on board with that. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 5:44:37 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We usually cook them “on the halfshell” Take both filets off. Place skin side down on foil. (You don’t need to scale them if you don’t want to) Add some button ter, seasoning as desired. Close foil around the filets and place on grill. EZPZ Of course there’s always blackened redfish. Some say cliché, I say classic preparation. I’ve had smoked redfish but I personally wouldn’t waste a fresh one that way. I usually only smoke mullet, Spanish mackerel, kingfish. Now if you wanted to do a quick cold smoke before sautéing the redfish, I could get on board with that. Thanks for the tip, I have been looking at dry brining and cold smoking it. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 6:36:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the saddest things I ever did for Navy Aircrew training was Cockpit Resource Management Training was have to listen to cockpit recordings and tower recordings of Military and Civilian crashes. Many radio calls end in "What the Fuck!" or "Oh SHIT!". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Damn! Listening to that pilot in his last moments. One of the saddest things I ever did for Navy Aircrew training was Cockpit Resource Management Training was have to listen to cockpit recordings and tower recordings of Military and Civilian crashes. Many radio calls end in "What the Fuck!" or "Oh SHIT!". One of the saddest things we ever had to do in the USAF Air Rescue business was go out and pick up what was left.
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:28:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Explosion There is no fixed definition of an explosion. Events that are described as explosions include a rupturing water boiler, a flash of light created by an electrical short circuit, detonation of a high explosive, deflagration of a tank containing an explosive fuel-air mixture, or the shock wave, fireball, and debris cloud produced by a thermonuclear detonation. The AIChE suggests that an explosion is "A release of energy that causes a blast". Berthelot, the French chemist that pioneered the scientific study of explosions, is reputed (Bailey and Murray, Explosives, Propellants and Pyrotechnics, Brassey) to have defined an explosion in 1883 as "the sudden explosion of gases into a volume of much greater than their initial one, accompanied by noise and violent mechanical effects." A humourous definition was given by Joseph Needham, "An explosion may be defined as a loud noise accompanied by the sudden going away of things from the places where they were before." - see p. 110 of The Gunpowder Epic, Vol 5, Part 7, Science and Civilization in China." Edited 1387Delta |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:38:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A fuel/air mixture explodes. Edited 1387Delta  Small plane explodes on impact, crashes into car in Florida neighborhood |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:42:26 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Most people would agree that Napalm explodes. That's the equivalent of what were looking at. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:46:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe he couldn't see his glide slope indicator? We will never know for certain... But he was likely head down looking out the side of the aircraft trying to maintain visual contact with the runway Thats a big issue with these types of approaches The pilot is trying to keep the runway in sight while in a turn, often in poor visibility, and fly the aircraft |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:52:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryPretty compact debris field. This would seem, to an utter and complete layperson that's watched far too many episodes of Air Disasters, to support dropping out of the sky post unrecoverable stall. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 7:56:34 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't know if a fuel tank BLEVE'd after the crash. Edited 1387Delta |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:03:28 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Initially looks to be really similar to the Teterboro crash a few years ago. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:04:12 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He's also a chronic fucking liar |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:04:53 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do tell... Or are you going to run away... again  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: He's also a chronic fucking liar Do tell... Or are you going to run away... again Please stop spamming this thread. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:09:42 AM EDT
[#35]
Like my sim partner told me one when I was trying to salvage a bad approach in an MD80. "this is exactly what it looks like just before you die" So I went around.
I've always remembered that. Thanks Kevin. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:11:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do tell... Or are you going to run away... again Dude, do you realize how insufferable you have made yourself just in this thread ? Please stop. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:12:23 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trolls are given free reign while longtime members are either banned or simply stop posting. It's sad. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:19:32 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mistook regular streets for the runway? Highly doubtful |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:38:16 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We will never know for certain... But he was likely head down looking out the side of the aircraft trying to maintain visual contact with the runway Thats a big issue with these types of approaches The pilot is trying to keep the runway in sight while in a turn, often in poor visibility, and fly the aircraft How many flight hours you got? |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 8:51:21 AM EDT
[#40]
Loosely related but Air Disasters, S13E4 Borderline Tactics is a good watch on Amazon.
American International Airways (AIA) Flight 808 Short story they tried to turn too tightly on final, banked too far and stalled dropping the DC8 on the field. Other factors such as sleep deprivation were at play in that accident but the general idea of a steep bank, lost of lift and zero time to recover seem to apply. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 9:20:21 AM EDT
[#41]
Good video, makes sense for the cause.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pS17RPgqfI |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 10:05:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One of the saddest things we ever had to do in the USAF Air Rescue business was go out and pick up what was left. This is exactly why I don’t listen to ATC tapes anymore. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 10:23:01 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good video, makes sense for the cause. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pS17RPgqfI Oh man the overlay of the tower tapes with the ring doorbell footage is haunting. (the first 20-30 seconds of this video).
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Posted: 12/29/2021 11:40:21 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryAre pilots really routinely circling just above stall all the time, cause that's retarded. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 11:46:06 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are pilots really routinely circling just above stall all the time, cause that's retarded. Most airlines will only circle in VMC. |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 11:50:53 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well it certainly didn't parachute to a soft landing now, did it ? No it crashed... but what it didn't do is "explode" or "blow up" A bomb "explodes" A house filled with natural gas "explodes" An over pressured water heater "explodes" An aircraft hits the ground, fuel tanks rupture spraying fuel, which ignites into flames But it doesn't "explode" This is what really matters to you? Semantics? |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 11:52:49 AM EDT
[#47]
Is Firetruck still arguing if the plane exploded or not ?
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Posted: 12/29/2021 11:55:13 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is Firetruck still arguing if the plane exploded or not ? I had to give him the “click” so I don’t know. It’s amazing clowns like this are allowed to continue their schtick |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:00:02 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good video, makes sense for the cause. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pS17RPgqfI  Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 12/29/2021 12:00:52 PM EDT
[#50]
Take a quick look at Gillespie Field on Google maps' satellite.
Surrounded on 3 sides by hills/mountains/obstacles Added to the crowded decision cycle, no? |
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