Local friend of a friend blows head off with a muzzle-loader - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Local friend of a friend blows head off with a muzzle-loader (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 11/16/2005 6:49:51 AM EST

[#1]

Betcha he don't do that again.

Tragic none the less.

Posted: 11/16/2005 6:52:18 AM EST

[#2]

Maybe Old Painless will do a "Box'O Truth" and test this.

Posted: 11/16/2005 6:52:34 AM EST

[#3]

www.tndeer.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=002612

About halfway down, there is a description of the events that matches what was in the paper.

Posted: 11/16/2005 6:54:34 AM EST

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
To claim exhaust manifold temps. of under 300 degrees would require some type of guard around the much hotter exhaust manifold itself. Combustion temp. is much higher and high RPMs would certainly cause a rise in exhaust manifold temp. No other part of the engine could possible reach exhaust temps.

It looks like the exhaust can get pretty hot according to this site:

fire.feric.ca/36222002/ATVProjectReportIbh.htm

Regardless of how hot it gets, it's pretty much inaccessable due to safety guards and engine design.

Even then, it's still not hot enough.

Think about this for a sec. He has to heat the part of the barrel with the powder charge, and he also has to have it pointed at his head.

Barrel has to be In hard contact with the hottest part of the exhaust, (The part up by the manifold) for an extended period. (the entire barrel would act as a heat sink) Remember, there is temp drop from one item to another with a contact transfer, to heat the barrel to over 600 degrees the exhaust has to be a LOT hotter.

Now, my Yamaha is fairly typical in design, Not a whole lot of difference between ATV's. You can't reach the manifold/exhaust juncture without removing the safety guard. In fact, the ONLY part of the exposed exhaust you can reach without tools is the end of the tailpipe, and that's only very warm to the touch. BIG temperature drop over the distance.

Figuring the ambient temp in PA at the time of this, they probably warm their hands on the tailpipe.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:01:03 AM EST

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have to agree with the peeps here. There's no way this was an accident. Your friend committed suicide. he pulled the trigger. Unless you shoot thousands of rounds non-stop, ammo just does not cook off even in regular guns that shoot cased ammo. To suggest a black powder gun that shoots about 1 round a minute at the fastest? Absurd.

Uh, rate of fire has nothing to do with this...

It was loaded and supposedly the heat from the vehicle's engine ignited the charge in the gun.

It does seem kind of unlikely, but stranger things have happened...

Yea black power can be pretty unstable... especially when exposed to high heat. It is FAR more dangerous to deal with and store in quantity than smokeless power.

From my experiences with black powder I would think under the right circumstances it would be possible for engine heat to cook off black power. In a flintlock with powder in the pan I would bet it could happen... probably fairly easily.

I would be careful before I labeled this a suicide with all the baggage that entails.

Achems Razor.
That which is most probable...

1. Blackpowder cooked off after a few minutes on the top of a hood?
2. Negligent/Accidental discharge.
3. Suicide?

#1 isn't looking so probable.
#2 looks more likely.
#3 Possible. But just because the thought hurts, don't rule it out.

I don't think that which you attribute to Occam is actually Occam's razor. As I recall, Occam's Razor had more to do with a preference for simplicity and parsimony in explanations and not using probability to deduce truth per se.

See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:02:22 AM EST

[#6]

Quoted:
Think about this for a sec...

I don't disagree. I just posted that little bit b/c I was surprised that manifold temps reached 500 celsius+ (~932 Farenheit). I wouldn't have expected that.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:04:20 AM EST

[#7]

Thank God some of you aren't Homicide detectives.

Anyone who has both ridden ATV's extensively and hunted with black powder rifles can say with almost 100% certainty that the story is fictional.

The hunter would have had his rifle strapped to the ATV's rack, handlebars, or in a scabbard. If the engine heat was enough to ignite black powder in those locations, the rider would have already received third degree burns to his legs, crotch, and ass. If you want to believe the guy strapped his rifle directly to the exhaust by some miraculous configuration then placed his head in front of the muzzle at the exact moment of ignition, go right ahead.

Modern muzzle-loading rifles (hardly anyone hunts with traditional style rifles anymore) are much safer than traditionals and as mentioned before, most all hunters now use Pyrodex and other powders which are much more stable than black powder.

If it was unintentional, it involved a rifle with the ignition cap still on the nipple, a rifle with the safety off, and a negligent trigger pull.

I would have to say the family is covering up a suicide. The story given is just way too implausible.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:10:07 AM EST

[#8]

Just to play around I took the (unloaded)TC 50 cal. out into the storage shed.

If I prop it up on the running boards and hold it with my leg the stock is too long and reaches past the engine.

If I lay it on the running boards, same problem. The stock holds it away, and the barrel is too long to fit inside the fender.

The tailpipe does not stick out far enough to lean the rifle against it, and it would be too far up the barrel anyway. The fenders are too high up over the exhaust to lay the gun across them that way, besides, the vibration with the thing running would knock it off.

The only way I can figure out to do it is to WIRE the gun underneath the ATV with the barrel pointing backwards and almost horizontal to the ground, after removing the skid plate to make room.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:14:29 AM EST

[#9]

Quoted:
Just to play around I took the (unloaded)TC 50 cal. out into the storage shed.

If I prop it up on the running boards and hold it with my leg the stock is too long and reaches past the engine.

If I lay it on the running boards, same problem. The stock holds it away, and the barrel is too long to fit inside the fender.

The tailpipe does not stick out far enough to lean the rifle against it, and it would be too far up the barrel anyway. The fenders are too high up over the exhaust to lay the gun across them that way, besides, the vibration with the thing running would knock it off.

The only way I can figure out to do it is to WIRE the gun underneath the ATV with the barrel pointing backwards and almost horizontal to the ground, after removing the skid plate to make room.

Newsflash, John:

You have half the story - maybe even less - anbd you're trying to make your own understanding fit the few facts you have.

I'll remember that the next time you spout off about how nobody was there, so nobody really understands why the LEO tazed grandma.

You're doing the exact same thing - soo you just pretty well killed your chances of being taken seriously the next time you drag out your blue paint to start making the thick blue line in the leo-bashing threads.

Meantime, did any of you guys read the link I posted, or has anyone bothered to try to find more news on the subject, or are all of you content to sit here and try to shove your own theories down each other's throats?

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:14:53 AM EST

[#10]

Quoted:
www.tndeer.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=002612

About halfway down, there is a description of the events that matches what was in the paper.

Interesting how the two posters have different stories.

Also note that earlier the claim was that "the father saw it happen". Now we have the father in a completely different area.

Posted by REALM:
His father was next to him when this happened. Dude leaned down to check something on the engine (probably adjust the choke), and suddenly "boom!"

The sensationalized version from the site above:
It seems the father/grandfather (?) had dropped of his son/grandson (?) for his walk into his stand. He fdrove the wheeler on a little farther to his location, got off, and leaned his un-capped muzzleloader against the back of his wheeler. Somehow the muffler fired the powder off fatally shooting the victim through the throat. As he was screaming and dying the sone ran his direction through the dark woods and tripped sustaining a compound fracture in his leg. He drug his way to the dying vicitm. Not sure where this happened.

The other one:
They are the Horton family and Howard ( the father) has worked with a hunting friend of mine for 26 years. He and his youngest son, Steve were walking into the woods last Thursday when Howard realized he had left his keys at the truck. When he got back to the truck to get his keys, he heard a gunshot. When he got back to his son, his muzzleloader had fired striking Steve in the face, killing him instantly. Howard ran to a nearby farnhouse for help. On his way back he fell breaking his femur. They had to do emergency surgery that night on him. Steve was 21 years old.

With no eyewitness, the "he leaned down to check something on the ATV" and "he leaned the rifle against the muffler and it discharged" stories become rather irrational speculation. The second story doesn't even mention an ATV...

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:17:15 AM EST

[#11]

I highly doubt it was suicide.

I just dont see a person going hunting and driving off on a 4 wheeler to commit suicide with a muzzleloader.

Also can you unload a muzzle loader easily after your done hunting? Or do you have to shoot it to get the load out?

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:20:51 AM EST

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
www.tndeer.com/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=002612

About halfway down, there is a description of the events that matches what was in the paper.

Interesting how the two posters have different stories.

Also note that earlier the claim was that "the father saw it happen". Now we have the father in a completely different area.

Posted by REALM:
His father was next to him when this happened. Dude leaned down to check something on the engine (probably adjust the choke), and suddenly "boom!"

The sensationalized version from the site above:
It seems the father/grandfather (?) had dropped of his son/grandson (?) for his walk into his stand. He fdrove the wheeler on a little farther to his location, got off, and leaned his un-capped muzzleloader against the back of his wheeler. Somehow the muffler fired the powder off fatally shooting the victim through the throat. As he was screaming and dying the sone ran his direction through the dark woods and tripped sustaining a compound fracture in his leg. He drug his way to the dying vicitm. Not sure where this happened.

The other one:
They are the Horton family and Howard ( the father) has worked with a hunting friend of mine for 26 years. He and his youngest son, Steve were walking into the woods last Thursday when Howard realized he had left his keys at the truck. When he got back to the truck to get his keys, he heard a gunshot. When he got back to his son, his muzzleloader had fired striking Steve in the face, killing him instantly. Howard ran to a nearby farnhouse for help. On his way back he fell breaking his femur. They had to do emergency surgery that night on him. Steve was 21 years old.

With no eyewitness, the "he leaned down to check something on the ATV" and "he leaned the rifle against the muffler and it discharged" stories become rather irrational speculation. The second story doesn't even mention an ATV...

I remember the paper stating that it was a traditions buckhunter inline .54 caliber muzzleloader.

I have no idea why they thought that was relvant, other than out of a percieved need to spice the story up with some technical details.

As for the disparate stories, I think that if you combined the latter two stories, you'd be close to the actual events.

As for exactly how the charge was set off, all anyone can do HERE is offer wild-eyed internet speculation. I agree that it didn't likely 'cook off' from engine heat. Maybe an errant spark from the exhaust landed in the perfect place? Maybe a spark ignited a bit of lint, cloth, or a dry blade of grass?

At any rate, there is nothing anywhere in the story (outside of the reader's own cynicism) to suggest murder/suicide.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:22:33 AM EST

[#13]

Quoted:
I highly doubt it was suicide.

I just dont see a person going hunting and driving off on a 4 wheeler to commit suicide with a muzzleloader.

Also can you unload a muzzle loader easily after your done hunting? Or do you have to shoot it to get the load out?

You can use a ball puller to unload a muzzle loader it is a pain in the ass. Far easier to shoot out the load.

There are some devices that use CO2 cartridges/gas that can be used on percussion rifles to expel a load, they are not very common.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:24:12 AM EST

[#14]

Apparently, some of us have been watching CSI and taking it a little too seriously.

I'll wait for the real CSI's to do the work. In the mean time...tag for updates.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:25:31 AM EST

[#15]

Quoted:
At any rate, there is nothing anywhere in the story (outside of the reader's own cynicism) to suggest murder/suicide.

Yea…

Speculating this was a suicide as if you know that to be a fact is ridiculous.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:27:39 AM EST

[#16]

I doubt the power cooked off, it would take alot of heat transfer thru the barrel to ignite the BP. What I would believe is the percussion cap cooking off, they are pretty sensitive and heat transfer would be quick thru the thin metal.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:29:03 AM EST

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I highly doubt it was suicide.

I just dont see a person going hunting and driving off on a 4 wheeler to commit suicide with a muzzleloader.

Also can you unload a muzzle loader easily after your done hunting? Or do you have to shoot it to get the load out?

You can use a ball puller to unload a muzzle loader it is a pain in the ass. Far easier to shoot out the load.

There are some devices that use CO2 cartridges/gas that can be used on percussion rifles to expel a load, they are not very common.

You can also remove the breechplug from most in-lines and just let the powder spill out the back, then push the bullet on through.

Yes, I consider this to be a safe method. Some may not. YMMV.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:35:38 AM EST

[#18]

The ignition temperature (without a flame or spark) of black powder is about 625 degrees Fahrenheit. It is impossible that the barrel of that muzzle loader got heated to 625 degrees Fahrenheit by sitting over an an air-cooled engine. I would imagine that the temperature of a air-cooled engine exterior would never exceed 325 F degrees. Most air-cooled cylinder heads are running 200-300 degrees F. Water cooled engine are cooler.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:41:23 AM EST

[#19]

*always keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction, even if it's unloaded

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:43:05 AM EST

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I highly doubt it was suicide.

I just dont see a person going hunting and driving off on a 4 wheeler to commit suicide with a muzzleloader.

Also can you unload a muzzle loader easily after your done hunting? Or do you have to shoot it to get the load out?

You can use a ball puller to unload a muzzle loader it is a pain in the ass. Far easier to shoot out the load.

There are some devices that use CO2 cartridges/gas that can be used on percussion rifles to expel a load, they are not very common.

If you have to actually shoot the gun off to unload it then there could be many reasons the gun was still loaded. Like he did not wish to scare deer away from a good hunting spot for example. Or did not wish to alert other hunters where he was.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:43:49 AM EST

[#21]

I can't believe that it happened the way it was told here.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:51:48 AM EST

[#22]

Quoted:

Achems Razor.
That which is most probable...

1. Blackpowder cooked off after a few minutes on the top of a hood?
2. Negligent/Accidental discharge.
3. Suicide?

#1 isn't looking so probable.
#2 looks more likely.
#3 Possible. But just because the thought hurts, don't rule it out.

How do you know it was just a few minutes? What if he had been riding around for a couple of hours? You don't think the gunpowder would have been really hot from that? Occham's Razor only works if you know all of the facts, instead of inserting your own into it with little to no data.

Posted: 11/16/2005 7:51:52 AM EST

[#23]

Quoted:

If you have to actually shoot the gun off to unload it then there could be many reasons the gun was still loaded. Like he did not wish to scare deer away from a good hunting spot for example. Or did not wish to alert other hunters where he was.

For what it is worth, it is a VERY common practice to leave muzzleloaders 'loaded' for extended periods of time. I have on numerous occassions left an otherwise clean muzzleloader loaded for a month or more at a time. It's simply the way things are done, because for all legal and practical purposes, if the cap is removed, it is 'unloaded', even if it still has powder and bullet in place.

The only problem with this is the corrosive nature of blackpowder, which demands frequent cleaning.

Posted: 11/16/2005 8:29:47 AM EST

[#24]

I knew the heat theory was BS as soon as I set eyes on it. This guy loaded his gun (an inline rifle if other thread participants are correct) before arriving at the hunting site. Anybody who has taken an elementary school hunter safety course knows better. At some point he bumped the trigger or caught it on something, causing the gun to discharge. I feel sorry for him and his family, but he was the victim of his own safety practices.

IMHO the only possible way engine heat could ever play a role in a negligent discharge would be if the gun was (A) a flintlock, (B) with a leaky, overcharged flash pan, and (C) he leaned the loaded gun against the ATV at an angle so (D) powder leaked out directly onto (E) a red-hot exaust pipe. But this scenario implies a probability of Rube Goldberg proportion. And we have to go back to the fact the gun in question probably isn't a flintlock and one shouldn't load a gun before arriving at the hunting site, so even this freakish theory is moot.

Posted: 11/16/2005 8:30:47 AM EST

[#25]

Suicide = No insurance payout!
Accident = Deep pocket theory Payout!

Don't know, Wasn't there! Tragic either way!

Posted: 11/16/2005 8:50:39 AM EST

[#26]

Quoted:

Thats Occam's Razor. And its a bullshit "principle."

The most probable explanation is not always the correct one.

And if it was suicide, would you TELL the parents that? I sure as hell wouldn't.

The point of the principle is simple probablity.

It's true that "The most probable explanation is not always the correct one.", but the principle states that it probably is.

I agree with you, though, that by whatever means you come to the conclusion that it probably was suicide, you sure as hell wouldn't go telling that to the family unless you were sure.

Note to self (as I have noted to myself every single time I am in the presence of any firearm) ..... IT'S LOADED. Don't point it at anything that you're not prepared to destroy.

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:02:01 AM EST

[#27]

Quoted:
I've been shooting muzzle loaders for a number of years, side lock traditional style and have not heard of this type of discharge in the past. Based entirely on what information is not NOT available vs what information IS available, no practical explanation is possible at this time. Speculation that the incident occured due to heat from the engine, exhaust or static electricity appears to be more a product from a grieving Father than a trained investigator. Until the facts of the case are known, no logical conclusion can be reached.

I am very sorry to hear of this unfortunate incident and my condolences go out to the family and friends.

+1 Very good assesment of the situation.

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:06:21 AM EST

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
note to self: keep gun away from engine.

Note to Self: Do Not put bodily parts in front of weapon!

That's the big problem with muzzleloaders... You have to. I think I remember seeing somewhere that muzzleloaders are the firearms most prone to accidents.

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:07:33 AM EST

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Just to play around I took the (unloaded)TC 50 cal. out into the storage shed.

If I prop it up on the running boards and hold it with my leg the stock is too long and reaches past the engine.

If I lay it on the running boards, same problem. The stock holds it away, and the barrel is too long to fit inside the fender.

The tailpipe does not stick out far enough to lean the rifle against it, and it would be too far up the barrel anyway. The fenders are too high up over the exhaust to lay the gun across them that way, besides, the vibration with the thing running would knock it off.

The only way I can figure out to do it is to WIRE the gun underneath the ATV with the barrel pointing backwards and almost horizontal to the ground, after removing the skid plate to make room.

Newsflash, John:

You have half the story - maybe even less - anbd you're trying to make your own understanding fit the few facts you have.

I'll remember that the next time you spout off about how nobody was there, so nobody really understands why the LEO tazed grandma.

You're doing the exact same thing - soo you just pretty well killed your chances of being taken seriously the next time you drag out your blue paint to start making the thick blue line in the leo-bashing threads.

Meantime, did any of you guys read the link I posted, or has anyone bothered to try to find more news on the subject, or are all of you content to sit here and try to shove your own theories down each other's throats?

The link is worthless.

I'm playing with possibilities because I'm bored. A popular Arfcom tradition. If you don't like that you are certainly free to go somewhere else. I certainly remember YOUR flights of fancy in the past on a variety of subjects. I firmly believe the guy died in a more traditional hunting accident because he was careless or drunk. (Typical hunter) but honestly, when you get right down to it, I don't really care.

I just hope some gun maker does not have to shell out $$ because of ignorance beyond his control.

Maybe you should switch to caffiene free instead?

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:15:10 AM EST

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:

If you have to actually shoot the gun off to unload it then there could be many reasons the gun was still loaded. Like he did not wish to scare deer away from a good hunting spot for example. Or did not wish to alert other hunters where he was.

For what it is worth, it is a VERY common practice to leave muzzleloaders 'loaded' for extended periods of time. I have on numerous occassions left an otherwise clean muzzleloader loaded for a month or more at a time. It's simply the way things are done, because for all legal and practical purposes, if the cap is removed, it is 'unloaded', even if it still has powder and bullet in place.

The only problem with this is the corrosive nature of blackpowder, which demands frequent cleaning.

PA's early muzzleloader season ended almost a month ago. My still-loaded flintlock is in the safe as I type. I'l shoot it again in a few weeks to get ready for the after Christmas late-muzzleloader season. I've been doing this for years.

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:15:47 AM EST

[#31]

Quoted:
Local friend of a friend had a loaded muzzle loader on a 4wheeler.
He bent over to mess with the 4wheeler putting his head in front of the barrel.
Apparently the heat from the engine had already heated the barrel quite a bit, and finally ignited the gunpower, blowing the guys head off.

Met a girl at a restaurant tonight who also knew the guy. She started saying how if she was the family she would be suing the gun manufacturer. I calmly explained that it wasn't a gun malfunction, but simply the powder being ignited by heat and stupidity by him for putting it near the engine and his head in front of it.

Not sure if she believed me, but I did my duty.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling BS or anything.
I'm having a hard time figuring out how the muzzle loader was on the 4 wheeler and got close enough to the engine to ignite.
If it was in a saddle holster the powder would have been well about the heat.
If it was across the front rack it would be to far away to get enough heat.
If it was but stock down the muzzle would be pointed up and to far above his head.
Details when you get them would help.
Modern day muzzle loaders don't AD that easy.

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:25:42 AM EST

[#32]

Quoted:

So it seems heat alone can ignite the blackpowder but the ignition temperature of blackpowder is 626 degrees Fahrenheit read here

How about the PRIMER?

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:29:51 AM EST

[#33]

Quoted:

I firmly believe the guy died in a more traditional hunting accident because he was careless or drunk. (Typical hunter)

Maybe in TX

CR

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:31:05 AM EST

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:

So it seems heat alone can ignite the blackpowder but the ignition temperature of blackpowder is 626 degrees Fahrenheit read here

How about the PRIMER?

Good point. I cooked off a centerfire rifle cartirdge in an AK in a pre-heated 300 degree oven in exactly 45 minutes.

Posted: 11/16/2005 9:58:30 AM EST

[#35]

I do not have specific information to support the following, but under certain conditions, I feel that the following scenario may be possible;

IF the vehicle in question was an older, well used model, the spark arrester could have been non-functional. That could leave open the possibility that IF the vehicle was momentarily left running with the rifle placed directly in-line with the exhaust pipe and reasonably close to it, a spark could conceivably be expelled and enter the nipple sufficiently to ignite the charge.

A long shot, but feasable.

Posted: 11/16/2005 12:42:42 PM EST

[#36]

Why would one be riding around with a loaded rifle?

Posted: 11/16/2005 12:48:14 PM EST

[#37]

In most states, a ML is not considered loaded unless the piece is capped, primed. I know plenty of guys here that pack a charged ML on 4 wheelers or MTBs all the time and so far, no one has had an accident.

Posted: 11/16/2005 12:55:57 PM EST

[#38]

Quoted:
I don't buy the story of how this happened. Something's missing.

The finger in the trigger guard???

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Local friend of a friend blows head off with a muzzle-loader (Page 2 of 2)

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