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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:17:12 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Joglee is that you? |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:20:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Hey Army I got your solution to the infantry half kilometer.
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:23:57 AM EDT
[#3]
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At least the uniform doesn't pretend to fix what is wrong with US ground combat power. 
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:30:37 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryYour picture needs more PMAG and optic. 
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:35:26 AM EDT
[#5]
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Your picture needs more PMAG and optic. Don't matter what optic you give them, they still won't hit shit. That said M855A1 is an insanely flat shooting projectile and explodes in the body out to 500M, even with the pressure reduction being reduced to 2,910FPS at 54,200PSI. I've gotten M855A1 to fragment as low a 1,200-1,300FPS at 10'(pulled the projectile and downloaded the powder to simulate it. @JohnBurns |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 4:54:35 PM EDT
[#6]
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In some form factor like LSAT or caseless or liquid propelled ceaseless or EM-driven, sure. In the familiar metallic cartridge- nitrocellulose propellant paradigm, switching from 5.56 for general issue is dumb. Even switching GPMGs and DMR-type rifles from .308 to a 6.5mm cartridge would offer a pretty modest leap in capabilities compared to the investment. A hot .338 round would probably be worth doing in a "light heavy" MG or even electric/rotary gun for static and vehicle-borne use, as well as a sniper rifle. Waiting for cased telescope is a mistake. LSAT has been 10-15 years away for the last 20 years, and will continue to remain always 10 years away. The irony is it was originally billed as an interim soluton which could be fielded quickly until they could perfect caseless ammo. The 338 is in a similar position as the 6.5 while the requirement for the MG is gaining traction, I think it will pick up steam after 338 Norma rifles begin being fielded and ammo contract's are in place. I can see 7.62 being completely replaced, and a decrease in the number of .50s, but I agree the 5.56 is sticking around for a while. The economic's don't make sense to change |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 5:07:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd rather keep the current M150/M68 setup and train soldiers to shoot better at 500M. Don't matter what optic you give them, they still won't hit shit. That said M855A1 is an insanely flat shooting projectile and explodes in the body out to 500M, even with the pressure reduction being reduced to 2,910FPS at 54,200PSI. I've gotten M855A1 to fragment as low a 1,200-1,300FPS at 10'(pulled the projectile and downloaded the powder to simulate it. @JohnBurns Our 240 gunners were knocking down 800meter "Ivans" on the MG range like it was nothing. The MGO with the BDC allowed for that. The Marines did or still do train to shoot at 500 meters, but all that shit goes right out the window, in the field. We either use tracers or Kentucky windage to get on target. Playing with dials and shit on your iron sights or optics while under fire, is dumb. |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 9:15:23 PM EDT
[#8]
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God damnit, no. We don't need to train soldiers to shoot at 500m. We have sights that already have Bullet Drop reticles (ACOGs and Elcans). Teaching the 4 fundamentals is all that's necessary. Our 240 gunners were knocking down 800meter "Ivans" on the MG range like it was nothing. The MGO with the BDC allowed for that. The Marines did or still do train to shoot at 500 meters, but all that shit goes right out the window, in the field. We either use tracers or Kentucky windage to get on target. Playing with dials and shit on your iron sights or optics while under fire, is dumb. No need to mess with the dials on either of those optics. |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 9:15:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you are correct about carbines, but precision will go 6.5 sooner than later whether it is in a brass cased or polymer hybrid case configuration, and will most likely be pushed down to the DMR also. Once the ammo is in the system, it won't be long before m240s will end up being converted for the extended range benefit. Waiting for cased telescope is a mistake. LSAT has been 10-15 years away for the last 20 years, and will continue to remain always 10 years away. The irony is it was originally billed as an interim soluton which could be fielded quickly until they could perfect caseless ammo. The 338 is in a similar position as the 6.5 while the requirement for the MG is gaining traction, I think it will pick up steam after 338 Norma rifles begin being fielded and ammo contract's are in place. I can see 7.62 being completely replaced, and a decrease in the number of .50s, but I agree the 5.56 is sticking around for a while. The economic's don't make sense to change Likely the Mk48 type weapon system. |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 9:23:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is wrong with the 5.56? |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:09:01 PM EDT
[#11]
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I believe USASOC is looking at 338 Norma for the next assault machine gun. . |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:12:59 PM EDT
[#12]
More jack off material for the guys who think our troops should all be carrying 15 pound M1A SOCOMs like the one they bought because they saw it in soldier of fortune magazine while eating hot pockets in their mom's basement.
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Posted: 5/11/2017 10:18:10 PM EDT
[#13]
"Army researchers are testing half a dozen ammunition variants for a new prototype assault rifle that fires a larger round in order to introduce a
possible M16/M4 replacement by |
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Posted: 5/11/2017 11:41:06 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe USASOC is looking at 338 Norma for the next assault machine gun.  What the heck is an assault machine gun???
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Posted: 5/11/2017 11:42:58 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 5/12/2017 12:02:39 AM EDT
[#16]
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 5.56.........it's the stupid F'ing FMJ bullet that's the problem. There are bullet designs in 5.56 thst will kill a deer, hog or what ever. Use better bullets. Think about it...they say that FMJ bullets are inhumane to use hunting.
That you must use bullets that are designed to kill humanely. Yet in the same breath there are people that say you must use FMJ bullets in war because the same bullets that kill wild game humanely kill humans inhumanely. Bullet design in the 5.56 can make it 10 times more effective and more humane if there is such a thing in war. Because only the politicians that never fight look at war and killing the enemy and dieing as humane. They've never been there to see it edited |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 12:09:29 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What the heck is an assault machine gun??? |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 12:40:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, because the US is going to suddenly ignore NATO standards. To my knowledge, the only NATO-standard calibers are 9mm, 5.56mm (.223 Remington), 7.62mm (.308 Winchester), 12.7mm (.50 BMG), and 25mm. I just don't see us issuing infantry weapons large-scale without pushing it through NATO. I'm another who thinks the 6.5 grendel would be a good match. Barrel, bolt and magazine change. Done. And magazines are limited life items. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:03:11 AM EDT
[#19]
BREAKING: Top secret photo of new military "Joint Infantry Service Model" (JISM) weapon system to be used by "Special Forces" and other select military units. The caliber is still classified. However, we know this is all real because the weapon was secretly photographed on an Army jacket. While this statement is unconfirmed, it has been reported that one of the Army's test personnel was overheard stating ".............and one of the greatest advantages of the new JISM weapon system is that it will piss off SBRtards bigly...."
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:14:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 5.56.........it's the stupid F'ing FMJ bullet that's the problem. There are bullet designs in 5.56 thst will kill a deer, hog or what ever. Use better bullets. Think about it...they say that FMJ bullets are inhumane to use hunting. That you must use bullets that are designed to kill humanely. Yet in the same breath there are people that say you must use FMJ bullets in war because the same bullets that kill wild game humanely kill humans inhumanely. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:22:57 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
BREAKING: Top secret photo of new military "Joint Infantry Service Model" (JISM) weapon system to be used by "Special Forces" and other select military units. The caliber is still classified. However, we know this is all real because the weapon was secretly photographed on an Army jacket. While this statement is unconfirmed, it has been reported that one of the Army's test personnel was overheard stating ".............and one of the greatest advantages of the new JISM weapon system is that it will piss off SBRtards bigly...." https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4175/34444061752_7c1b546f87_b.jpg 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 4:26:12 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a machine gun that isn't used from a tripod. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What the heck is an assault machine gun???
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Posted: 5/12/2017 7:16:56 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The prohibition on using hunting bullets in war is not because they "kill humans inhumanely." It's because, when they don't kill, they inflict grievous, difficult-to-treat, often amputating wounds. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 5.56.........it's the stupid F'ing FMJ bullet that's the problem. There are bullet designs in 5.56 thst will kill a deer, hog or what ever. Use better bullets. Think about it...they say that FMJ bullets are inhumane to use hunting. That you must use bullets that are designed to kill humanely. Yet in the same breath there are people that say you must use FMJ bullets in war because the same bullets that kill wild game humanely kill humans inhumanely. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? I quite aware about why we do not use hunting bullets. But the U.S. never signed that accord. Plus it does not matter what new weapon the U.S. comes out with If all we will be using is FMJ. We need better bullets that will kill better instead of punching holes. If we are going to fight a war, fight a war and stop making it pretty or nice. Kill the bastards and if that means when you shoot them it blows their leg, arm or head off so be it. This line that they will do it to us. Hell they already are with IEDs and anything else they can get their hands on. Look at what the enemy does if they capture a soldier. Wars not suppose to be polite. War is about winning and the way you win is to kill the enemy. Anyway you can using whatever you can. Inflicting the most damage to can. Period That's how our men get to come home. Yes you will lose some that's war it's not nice or pretty. You be polite not me. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 8:08:05 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
6.8 SPC for infantry 6.5 Creedmoor for machine guns and longer range role weapons. However, I wonder what the barrel life of a 6.5 Creedmoor would be in a machine gun. That might work so well. 7mm Creedmoor or 7mm08 might be pretty damn interesting as well. Oh,  wait?
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Posted: 5/12/2017 8:28:09 AM EDT
[#25]
Standard Army E-type silhouette. 500 Meters. Lighter weight, better dependability, ergonomics, precision, and accuracy.
Nice, objective standards. You still have to train the Soldier to use it, and he/she stills needs to execute the shot. DOTMLPF much? Physics and physiology haven't changed much in the last 200 years. Arguing is stoopid. Technology will change. Throwing money at a problem every few decades won't fix it. Heavier weapons that are louder and recoil harder aren't going to fix the problem, especially for marginal shooters who can't hit the target now with 5.56 rifles and optics. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 8:58:02 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also the USMC and the 75th. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I believe USASOC is looking at 338 Norma for the next assault machine gun. . The push is to cut weight, and you can cut the weight of a MG and its ammo almost in half with caseless. There is a lot of weight tied up in recoil operation. The weight savings aren't as much with a gas operated carbine and 5.56, but they exist, and it matters. Joe humps enough shit as it is. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 8:58:07 AM EDT
[#27]
Is there even a problem that needs solving with our current issue small arms?
Looking at a cost benefit analysis, are there not other more effective weapons systems that we could spend the money on that would be a better "bang for the buck" for an increase in combat capabilities? I'm not a vet or anything more than a firearms enthusiast, but I've always read on here and from other sources that small arms aren't that big of a factory in today's wars anyways. Guys who have been there and seen combat, did you ever feel outgunned by the enemy (assuming small arms vs small arms?) |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 9:07:01 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is there even a problem that needs solving with our current issue small arms? Looking at a cost benefit analysis, are there not other more effective weapons systems that we could spend the money on that would be a better "bang for the buck" for an increase in combat capabilities? I'm not a vet or anything more than a firearms enthusiast, but I've always read on here and from other sources that small arms aren't that big of a factory in today's wars anyways. Guys who have been there and seen combat, did you ever feel outgunned by the enemy (assuming small arms vs small arms?) On the MG side, the 7.62X51 is a real limitation. I'd like to see something like the 338 magnums in a 240 type platform. I know the 6.5s give nice ballstics, but I am also curious what that would do to tracers which are pretty handy for a MG for a number of reasons. but the real money is in individual weapons, not crew served, so HK bribes and woos on the individual weapon and we ignore MUCH more pressing problems. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 9:34:09 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What the heck is an assault machine gun???The M249 and Mk46 are assault machine guns. Vs a machine gun designed for overwatch. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 9:34:47 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would say no for the individual rifle. The M4 is about as good as current technology allows. The best thing is how easy it is to improve with COTS. On the MG side, the 7.62X51 is a real limitation. I'd like to see something like the 338 magnums in a 240 type platform. I know the 6.5s give nice ballstics, but I am also curious what that would do to tracers which are pretty handy for a MG for a number of reasons. but the real money is in individual weapons, not crew served, so HK bribes and woos on the individual weapon and we ignore MUCH more pressing problems. As a side note, my son thought it would be cool buy surplus M60 ammo links and link up 200 rounds of empty milsurp brass. Just the brass and links alone are heavier than most people would think. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 9:42:00 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is the limitation from the weight of the ammo, or trajectory/range? Honest question. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 9:43:21 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really hope the 300 blackout people are trolling. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 9:50:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, because the US is going to suddenly ignore NATO standards. To my knowledge, the only NATO-standard calibers are 9mm, 5.56mm (.223 Remington), 7.62mm (.308 Winchester), 12.7mm (.50 BMG), and 25mm. I just don't see us issuing infantry weapons large-scale without pushing it through NATO. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 9:54:11 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the way that the Euro zone is going, is considering NATO's input/impact really a category one thing? How long do you see NATO lasting? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, because the US is going to suddenly ignore NATO standards. To my knowledge, the only NATO-standard calibers are 9mm, 5.56mm (.223 Remington), 7.62mm (.308 Winchester), 12.7mm (.50 BMG), and 25mm. I just don't see us issuing infantry weapons large-scale without pushing it through NATO. 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 9:54:52 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.300blk and he done with it |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 10:02:42 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is the limitation from the weight of the ammo, or trajectory/range? Honest question. As a side note, my son thought it would be cool buy surplus M60 ammo links and link up 200 rounds of empty milsurp brass. Just the brass and links alone are heavier than most people would think. The juice isn't really worth the squeeze. For most operations we just used SAWs. The only time we took our 240s off the trucks was when we did a raid with not much humping and we used them to provide cordon security on the three points (we did a triangular defense) As is typical with the ETTs, we couldn't find the tripods. 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 10:03:08 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is maybe the worst choice for a general issue cartridge imaginable. 
Suggesting .300 BLK as a general issue round is sheer stupidity. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 12:27:21 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 5.56.........it's the stupid F'ing FMJ bullet that's the problem. There are bullet designs in 5.56 thst will kill a deer, hog or what ever. Use better bullets. Think about it...they say that FMJ bullets are inhumane to use hunting. That you must use bullets that are designed to kill humanely. Yet in the same breath there are people that say you must use FMJ bullets in war because the same bullets that kill wild game humanely kill humans inhumanely. Bullet design in the 5.56 can make it 10 times more effective and more humane if there is such a thing in war. Because only the politicians that never fight look at war and killing the enemy and dieing as humane. They've never been there to see it edited ETA M855A1 does nasty stuff when it hits shit, too. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 12:30:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't think for one moment that if our enemies could get their hands on what ever kind of ammo they would use it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 5.56.........it's the stupid F'ing FMJ bullet that's the problem. There are bullet designs in 5.56 thst will kill a deer, hog or what ever. Use better bullets. Think about it...they say that FMJ bullets are inhumane to use hunting. That you must use bullets that are designed to kill humanely. Yet in the same breath there are people that say you must use FMJ bullets in war because the same bullets that kill wild game humanely kill humans inhumanely. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? The point of going to war is to kill the enemy in any way possible. I quite aware about why we do not use hunting bullets. But the U.S. never signed that accord. 
Plus it does not matter what new weapon the U.S. comes out with If all we will be using is FMJ. We need better bullets that will kill better instead of punching holes. If we are going to fight a war, fight a war and stop making it pretty or nice. Kill the bastards and if that means when you shoot them it blows their leg, arm or head off so be it. This line that they will do it to us. Hell they already are with IEDs and anything else they can get their hands on. Wars not suppose to be polite. War is about winning and the way you win is to kill the enemy. Anyway you can using whatever you can. Inflicting the most damage to can. Period |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 12:39:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
30 creedmore for the win. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
6.8 SPC for infantry 6.5 Creedmoor for machine guns and longer range role weapons. However, I wonder what the barrel life of a 6.5 Creedmoor would be in a machine gun. That might work so well. 7mm Creedmoor or 7mm08 might be pretty damn interesting as well. 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 12:44:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The next MG adopted service-wide will use caseless ammo regardless of what USASOC looks at. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 12:52:13 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.30 caliber forever! 
The cult of the .30 caliber rifle bullet has set small arms design back decades at least. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:00:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Accurate hits kill, the bullet type doesn't matter. ETA M855A1 does nasty stuff when it hits shit, too. Marines have the MK318 which is a version of Jack Cater's old Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. JSOC uses Brown Tip which is the Barnes 70gr TSX. M855A1 is a copy of the old Remington Bronze Point with a steel tip. Many people don't realize even OTM started as a hunting bullet.
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:03:36 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The cult of the .30 caliber rifle bullet has set small arms design back decades at least. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:05:10 PM EDT
[#45]
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A machine gun you carry during the assault. The M249 and Mk46 are assault machine guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What the heck is an assault machine gun???The M249 and Mk46 are assault machine guns. I do wish people would stop making up their own definitions. Vs a machine gun designed for overwatch. 
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:05:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We do use hunting bullets and there is a difference in the wound produced. Marines have the MK318 which is a version of Jack Cater's old Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. JSOC uses Brown Tip which is the Barnes 70gr TSX. M855A1 is a copy of the old Remington Bronze Point with a steel tip. Many people don't realize even OTM started as a hunting bullet. If I am close up, I keep putting more holes in him. If I am far away, I have slowed him down to the point where I can walk up and put more holes in him. Hunting men isn't entirely equivilent to hunting animals. I don't worry about an "ethical" kill. Simply a legal one. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:06:56 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty effective at 500. And many reasons. The 7.62x39 round from a 16" barrel goes transonic at 500y at sea level. Not exactly the round I'd want if one is looking for longer range - as the 5.56 handily outperforms the 7.62x39 at 500y & beyond for hitting the target. Since range seems to be the deciding factory for a new rifle, the 6.5 makes FAR more sense. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:14:25 PM EDT
[#48]
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Opposite is true. Brass is a major conductor of electron flow, so heat from the cartridge transfers into the steel chamber, barrel, and any components that touch the barrel. Polymer, on the other hand, absorbs heat and electron flow, more as an insulator. Polymer cases suck heat into the case and transfer substantially less heat to the barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What method will be used to keep a rifle cool that uses polymer cases? Brass does a great job of taking heat with it as it's ejected from the rifle. Brass is a major conductor of electron flow, so heat from the cartridge transfers into the steel chamber, barrel, and any components that touch the barrel. Polymer, on the other hand, absorbs heat and electron flow, more as an insulator. Polymer cases suck heat into the case and transfer substantially less heat to the barrel. How heavy is that plastic? The plastic will act as a better insulator. And "electron flow" is not happening. Electron vibration maybe but not flow. |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:15:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The prohibition on using hunting bullets in war is not because they "kill humans inhumanely." It's because, when they don't kill, they inflict grievous, difficult-to-treat, often amputating wounds. You (and others) may not give a fuck if the enemy suffers severe wounds, but remember the other side of the coin: If we start using hunting bullets, our future enemies may very well follow suit. Countless US soldiers who were wounded in battle, made a full recovery because they were hit by non-fragmenting, non-expanding, FMJ bullets. Do you really want to change that for the worse? |
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Posted: 5/12/2017 1:15:17 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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What's the range on one of those, 50 yards? Why not just switch to 7.62x39? And with the .300blk, you can use the standard m16 bcg and magazines at full capacity 
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