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Few observations:

There is no "pistol" possible in the NFA. It will either have to be a SBR or an AOW. A new category could be created but that will take a change in written law.


There is much more to the differences in "pistol vs. "SBR" than a brace vs. stock or simply not having a stock at all. Yes it seems that it is vague and not well defined but a 20" AR wearing a rifle scope and forward grip with the stock removed isn't a pistol regardless of what has been allowed to slide in the past. OAL, weight, accessories all play a part. It has and is part of the law, vague though it is.


The ATF is currently rewriting the definition of a pistol as when it was written originally, long gun based pistols were a rarity.


It is possible that this is a fishing exercise but it is also possible that it is an attempt to fix the retarded mess this has all become over the last several years.


I do not believe that any guns should be regulated at all but they are and this is where we are. I'm not being an apologist for the ATF and am not kneeling, cucking or bowing (or any other BS name calling stupidity)


Those who have SBRs which are otherwise definable as a pistol can simply remove the stock and put on a brace and be good, just as if it were not a SBR. This takes care of those wanting to travel with it (if not in the configuration which makes it a SBR it is not a SBR). Those who do not want to register, in whatever guise it is offered, can use their brace just as before providing the rest of the gun meets the admittedly sketchy definition of a pistol. As already stated this definition is being clarified.


Until the details are made available, all of this arguing based on guesses is really a waste of time. Once the rest is known, each person can decide what to do.

Same for me here. I once returned to my vehicle at a cancer fundraiser to find a police car parked behind it. The officer got out, approached me, and started a conversation because he saw my "COLT M16" vanity plate. We talked about my M16 and my suppressor collection, and he even asked if I'd like to demo some suppressors for the department. He then proceeded to open the trunk of the squad car and hand me his duty M16 in front of onlookers walking past.

What's really funny is that he pulled me over a few months later just to ask if I'd bought any new firearms lately -- and I just happened to be returning home from buying a Barrett. 50 BMG and had it in the back!  We broke that bad boy out right in a gas station parking lot and fondled it.

This is correct.  

I didn’t vote for him in ‘16 and I don’t regret not doing so. I also wouldn’t regret it if I had.  

My fears of Trump were and are that he’s not a man with deeply held beliefs. Not that he doesn’t have any convictions, just that he’s pragmatic, too pragmatic.  I really thought he was going to push harder after impeachment, still waiting.....

I disagree. It is the one notion I can not wrap my head around. Non-NFA owners telling NFA people that our shit will be confiscated. You made the point that we obeyed the law. Why would they bother us? It would look terrible.

Look at what happened to QuietBore. They were the first in the form 1 community who got a visit. Guess what, they still sell kits, the only thing they changed is that you need to provide a form 1 before they ship. They are still in business. The ATF is a govt entity. All govt types (especially in the military) have that mentality of if one person shits their pants, everyone gets to wear a diaper. Now the brace thing is a little different in the aspect they ok'd it and are now walking it back. We do know this is politically motived, and like JMF stated, this whole thing smells more like a test of our willpower.

It is very hard to speculate anything at this time. Judging based upon the suppressor community, it might turn into a hurdle more than anything. It might not change at all for all we know. I also think your assumption of NFA owners is rather ignorant. What is the one thing we learned after the 2016 election? Anything can happen. Even the unexpected when the odds are stacked against us.

Apples and oranges there dude.  

A piece of plastic does not create a victim. Murder does.

Have you seen the price of ammo??

You still seem to be dismissing the many people who do carry a braced pistol in their vehicles and a subset of them who do regularly cross state lines. Everyone I know with a braced pistol carries one often in their vehicle. A subset of those DO cross state lines regularly. Some have homes in different states. Some have jobs in different states. Some live in border areas (mine is a 3 state border area, legal to have the loaded pistol in the vehicle in all three). In my case, and the case of most of my children, we live in urban hoods where crime is pretty high. We travel to and through even higher crime hoods. Braced pistols certainly have a place in our regular routines.

Perhaps you live in a vast area with low crime and hunting is foremost on your mind. For some of us, that isn't the case. Hunting is the not even a reason I carry my braced pistols. While you could argue that it shows braced pistols as a way around NFA. I would argue that braced pistols show the folly of NFA and how NFA can endanger many of us urban dwellers.

Because up until the physical submission, they are not an "ass"?

This.  They sent a message, this is how we respond.

That is awesome. I have a similar situation. Cop and his daughter lives a couple floors above me. He showed me his new rifle one day. When I got my can back, I showed it to him on my BRACED PISTOL and he geeked out. Metro police are a different breed, but in these smaller towns, we still seem to have the good ol' boys. I have said it in other threads, now is the time to get off Arfcom/Twitter/FB and start talking to people. Start gauging your area and it will help you feel confident or it will make you plan better. If I based my decisions off ARFCOM, I might never leave the 6ft x 12ft area that my computer is in because I would think the world is literally on fire. Only some of it is. Again, learn to back the good guys and let them build faith in you. Go buy them a beer and call them a dumbass, but get the point across that you both are in the same boat.

Honestly kind of shocked at how many guys say they will go kinetic on here. LOL, half you guys have an email attached that has your full name in it. The Opsec and common sense is not strong here anymore.

They already gave you the details in writing. They will decide ON AN INDIVIDUAL PISTOL BASIS. That's it. There's no speculation. They will determine for each individual pistol at the time of investigation.

Fucking Bingo man. The brace makes travelling in somewhere like say SW Ohio much easier because if the 3 states my city sits on. AND the fact that my state does not allow a loaded rifle in the car. I for one, like the ballistics and accuracy off the 5.56 compared to a 9mm.

Welp, that is enough arfcom for one day. Have a good one gents.

But, they AREN'T walking it back. The current document states the same as they have been saying all along. Nothing significant has changed about their stance. This was SB Tactical's frustration since 2018... FATF wasn't saying, even from the beginning, that an approved accessory makes an SBR a pistol. AR pistols have been around. All that FATF said was that adding this accessory to AN ALREADY ACCEPTABLE PISTOL did not change it from a pistol into an AR.

Frankly, I think it's really a matter of people not realizing what FATF has been doing since the beginning and now they are seeing it written down in one place on a federal registry. Again, this is how they have approached the brace accessory from the very beginning. They haven't "walked back" anything.

That is a good point. I will change my wording moving forward.

Lol,like they give a shit.

Once the law/rule/mandate/whatever is on the books,it's hanging over your head.

Time is on their side,yes it is. You have to be lucky to not get caught every time you have it/use it/take it out. Those in power only have to get lucky once,to screw you over hard.

That shit doesn't matter to some chicago gangbanger that's been in and out of prison his whole short life,but it's a whole nother ballgame for a guy that has a family,house/property,career,etc...

When you get back on, check your PMs.

I do not disagree. I've always said that government can screw up a thousand times and be okay whereas the individual only needs to screw up (or get screwed) once.

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Mac is in it for the money. He is a millionaire. Scaring the shit and panicking people means more clicks and more clicks equal more money for him.

Yeah,just a scare tactic,like it was with Bumpstocks...

Aint nothin gonna happen.

The "speculation" as far as I was referring to is in regard to what the amnesty or registration offer is as well as the updated definition of what a "pistol" is.

You are correct that if you are charged with having an unregistered SBR that it will be determined to proceed or not based on somewhat sketchy and subjective information.

Again, I'm not arguing its good or right. I just don't think it is the ATF going rogue like some do. I think it is an effort to clarify the muddy water we are currently in.

Before any of this started, a brace or not having a stock installed did not definitively make a rifle based weapon a "pistol".

I figure that was sarcasm but I do want to go on record that I believe FATF is teeing up for something worse.

Ah. I understand now. Thanks for the clarification.

ETA: However, I don't see where they have changed their definition of a pistol. They just wrote down on one piece of paper what they have been saying on several scraps of paper since the beginning. Do you see it differently? If so, where?

I don’t know what MAC’s intentions are and it’s ok to be skeptical of things but goodness....

“We” have been fucked over and let down by a lot of people. That doesn’t mean there not a few good guys fighting the good fight.  MAC is currently suing over the bump stock ban. He’s done far more to protect the 2A than the NRA.

His YT channel is not filled with 2A fear porn like many/most of the others. It takes clicks and revenue to sue the feds and continue making content that engages more viewers.  

MAC has been very vocal in support of Kenosha Kyle. More so than the real grifters out there peddling fear and coffee.

I deactivated my Facebook account over two years ago. People seem inclined to post a lot of personal stuff on there, and it just gives Libs fuel for the fire. I have a tiny bit of anonymity here on Arfcom, so I loosen up a little here. I doubt 99% of the local cops know who I am, but I'd be willing to bet they've all seen my Jeep XJ that I've driven to work daily for over 17 years. The back window is covered in LaRue, Vortex, Seekins, KRG, Arfcom, and Noveske stickers. Not to mention the huge suppressed M4 stickers that were on the rear side windows for years. My county law enforcement has always been very pro-gun -- the various Sheriffs and Police Chiefs over the years were always great about CLEO sign-offs when those were a thing.

I live in a rural area and have a nice network of local farmers. I have no doubts that we all have each other's backs and I trust that none would rat me out if it ever got really bad in the world. I used to shoot my M16 in the back yard and no one cared. These same people know that I'm equipped for nighttime activity as well, so none would have any concern if they happened to hear shots at night. I have unlimited access to their farms day or night. I take game from their land for my freezer, and I control the predator population for their benefit. At the end of the day, everyone needs to network with local like-minded individuals, because very few of us are capable of sustained survival alone.

I respect everyone's opinion here, even if it contrasts with my own. I own pistol braces myself, but I've always felt that it was a legal way to skirt the NFA. Just like tax laws, who isn't going to utilize every legal option available to them? I'm a firm believer in that the ATF's only job is to enforce laws as written and not arbitrarily "rewrite" law. I would like to see NFA be completely overturned, or at the very least, SBR's/SBS's delisted along with suppressors. To simplify our lives, I'd like to see the ATF and IRS be abolished. Go to a flat tax rate and be done with it. Choose a percentage and tax everyone the exact same regardless of income.

Why wouldn't they?

They may have thought Trump and the Republicans would keep them on a tight leash the first couple years,but when the Republicans let them run wild,why shouldn't they? And they know biden wont rein the in,so it's game on...

4 fucking years of "The 8 year assault on your 2nd Amendment has come to a crashing end" Trump and his 2nd Amendment Coalition,and instead of making some solid gains,we have court cases going to try and undo his gun control,and are in an even worse position with biden taking over.

Yeah yeah,I know,"judges". We;ll see how those work out over time (decades even),and there is no guarantee how they will decide.

You'll get no argument from me. I see it the same way.

I don’t disagree I’m sure Mac is a good guy. But also this is a business for him this is his livelihood and how he makes money a lot of money. When the money stops will he stop? He’s not doing this because it’s a hobby or fun to do. He’s constantly begging for money in all his videos. Maybe it’s just me but I get tired of it.

Well - as I've pointed out repeatedly and been derided for each time - it's trivial under current law for the ATF to determine that all semi-auto firearms are "readily restored" to machineguns. Since they're not registered as MGs either on a F2 to a SOT or to an individual pre-May 86 they'll all be illegal immediately due to 922(o) with zero recourse and zero compensation.

No way to legally keep them - no amnesty - no registration - no legal recourse. All semi-auto rifles/pistols/shotguns/AOWs/SBRs/SBSs would be impacted.

There's no real appeals process. "Turn them in or destroy them or face a felony."

That's exactly what was done with bumpstocks.

That can be done right now under existing law. It has happened before: bumpstocks. Akins Accelerator. Open-bolt semi-autos in the early 1980s - which happened three times of which I'm aware.

Yup.

Yep. And who knows what else they will go after-night vision? Thermal? ACOGS?

ETA-powder? primers? Lot's of shit they can go after.

I can always choose to destroy the receiver and keep the other parts, at least with NFA you will Congress acting before things go south, a administration ruling can happen overnight.

The problem with people like you is that you believe that all you have to do is cast a vote in an election, and the candidate is supposed to know who you are and what you expect. It doesn't work like that in the real world. You have to make yourself HEARD AND FELT. That means working in campaigns, going to town halls, donating to campaigns, and generally being visible to the campaign and the candidate. Other people want the candidate to perform for them while in office, and you are competing for time, resources, and possibly which side of an issue the candidate will come down on. You have to ride herd on elected officials, or they will shift to whatever position will benefit them personally.

LOL.

Trump was the one to bring up the 2nd Amendment all the time when he was running (to lots of cheering-like "Lock her up"),and tout his 2nd Amendment Coalition headed by his son. I,and many like me around here,made calls and sent e-mails on the 2nd Amendment.  Why should you have to ride herd on a guy that has been pandering talking up the 2nd Amendment like crazy?

The only replies I got from the White House were asking me for money.

I keep on my local reps,but the fed reps apparently don't give a shit about smaller government,less spending,holding people accountable,and the 2nd Amendment. I'm sure I could be more persuasive if I included 6+ figure checks...

Actually I am not, I’m saying how many of the braced AR pistols have been sold? How many are in your area? I would be will to bet the amount you are referring to are just a small number in the grand scheme of things? Your right, I live pretty much in the center of the state. I used to travel to Seattle but don’t anymore, even when I did I felt more secure having a loaded G19 than I ever did with my braced AR. Quicker draw, a helluva lot easier to maneuver in my vehicle, and when I got out, it was with me, not locked up in the car. I had a SP89 and even got the holster setup, still couldn’t carry it, so it was left in the car, every time I would be away from the vehicle if I didn’t conceal I was unarmed.

I get your point, but your looking at the small picture your AO, if I have to defend myself in a car, it’s a handgun, if I’m getting out, shits gotten way worse and it’s full on rifle rime. Which as I have said before a suppressed pinned to 16”- 14.5, with a LPVO. Remember once the threat is over, you stilll have to answer to police and that overzealous prosecutor looking to make a name for himself.

Interesting thing to note about powder/primers/caps: it's all already illegal without a Federal Explosives License.

Individual use exemptions have been granted for such products. If those exemptions are removed then all of it is immediately contraband for individuals and businesses without an FEL and storage magazine(s) - which not every state/locality will allow.

Seriously, you keep changing the target. You started out with "NO ONE" and kept shifting it from there. Our use cases are just as valid as your use cases. Neither of us have complete data. I did not make statements that attempted to invalidate your use case but you are doing that. Perhaps you can't see it in your own writing?

ETA: I see that I'm not the first person to point out that you appear to be shifting on what you are stating.

They have not changed it yet, they are re-writing the definition of "handgun".

They do care what you own.  But we are talking about two different things I see.

Buying a MG or an SBR or SBS or AOW requires a wee bit more paperwork and approval than the pump action turkey gun at Farm and Fleet...or at a FTF transaction.

The ATF is trying to scare people into saying their pistols could now be considered SBR's (maybe...they will let you know after they arrest you)...and those SBR's fall under the category of needing "approval" or go to jail.  

There are far more "potential gun owners" (4473's or background checks) than registered firearms.    80% lowers makes the water even muddier for the ATF.  No 4473 or background check on the system.


Pistols (braced or not) on 80% lowers make 4473's, Form 1's for SBR's, and background checks all irrelevant.  You don't have to drill a 3rd hole and open carry an SBR through a hospital to make your point (and get loved tenderly).  We can actually beat the system from within...legally.   I'm sure everyone has some old horse and buggy laws still on the books in their states.  No one cares about them because they are irrelevant now.

I don't understand the fight against this.

Have you ever read through the Congressional discussions of the major gun laws - where they hammered out the definitions? More than one person there referred to "one-hand-guns" interchangeably with "handgun" and "pistol" or "revolver".

It's fascinating how things change regarding the use of ordinary objects and how we label them - but legal definitions are somehow fluid in a totally different manner.

That’s quickly becoming most of America outside the major cities.

I don’t feel I’m changing it, but trying to clarify my position. You are correct, we don’t know the numbers, I’m basing my points on how past trends and people are. I probably am, as I respond, I try to put some of my life’s lessons into my replies. Yes I have had to pull a gun once and yes it was a semi auto, a Galil. I’m glad it didn’t turn out worse, but because of a overzealous prosecutor it ended up costing me money, in that I went from victim to aggressor in less than a week. Granted it worked out in my favor, but had it not been for the responding officers testifying on my behalf it could have gone all wrong for me.

Prosecutor decided that his victims were credible witness’s even though they were the ones who were trying to car jack my wife and I! Yes, I stated it wrong at the get go. The argument that I can carry across state lines or I can carry loaded in my car are valid to certain states, a large amount of those arguing don't carry the damn things like you or I do. I bet if you look at gun owners outside of your group like I have I know almost more who leave their guns in general at home and post allot more than they shoot. I’m talking your close group, there is a national average but I can’t remember where I saw it, not even sure how accurate it would be.

We do see allot here who post and talk the talk, but how much do they shoot? I don’t disagree there are those who benefit from braced AR,s, I’ve tried, lord knows. It didn’t work, I also have said or think, I think it’s a way around the NFA, I had it told to me bu owners how dumb I am for doing the NFA SBR, well now we’re seeing a change, and those same anti NFA are still telling me about how we’re screwed, we’re stupid to take a free registration.

I feel safe owning NFA at least for now, then having a bureaucracy making a decision on what is or isn’t regarding a brace or stock. While I am limited with NFA I don’t feel it as asking permission, we all do when we get a CCW, go fill out a 4473. I think it’s also incredibly hypocritical that the same isn’t said for suppressors.

A gallon of milk weights 8 pounds. You can’t hold it with a straight arm out from the body aligned with your eyes? I’m no Adonis but I’ve shot a .308 AR pistol like that one handed using a brace.

“The problem with people like me.”

That’s a lot of assumptions in your comments, dude.

Ok maybe I wasn't done with ARFCOM today ha.

Just some points so that I do not stray too far from the thread topic.

1. People do really need to get the fuck off social media. It is painting a false reality for those who are hooked (but do not understand that they are) because their mental state is always seeing the bad in the world. It does pertain to this thread. MAC and MrGnG are good people. I have been getting recommended 2 completely fucking retard, click bait, doomer, ermagerd my tin hat fell off, I live off the grid because I watched too many Liam Neison movies gun channels that I watched once and it is total fucking garbage. The fear. The misinformation. The actual lack of experience to give advise on the situation they are talking about. I am not a lawyer. Guess what I am not going to do? Tell everyone that the fucking sky is falling and the gestapo has risen from the dead to take your guns. Now with that in mind, I do understand that there is threat and this should not be taken lightly. I mentioned before that the solvent trap guys getting raided, and still selling shit makes me wonder how far this brace shit will go. For the love of God everyone, get off the fucking social media. It tore down a group that I really liked on here. They are now bat shit insane people. The ATF might be after a piece of plastic, but as of this minute, they are not out to get YOU. Unless you did something super illegal. In that case, it's your business.

2. A healthy dose of skepticism could go a very long way at this point in time. Just short examples. Powell and Wood being the saviors and their filings had more typo's than I make on this site. NRA defending our rights. How many times have dems said assault weapons ban since sandy hook? A dozen dozen? Yet we still have our shit. Come to think of it, has anyone actually laid eyes on the ATF saying that the form 1 could take a route for SBR's? Or is that just another rumor that caught on? I think the Ohio case is still planting a seed of hope in my mind. Now for IL, CA, NY, etc folk, well you chose to live their. Good luck. Short story. When I got my suppressor, I let people shoot it constantly. I have been noticing a lot more black people at my ranges. Also a lot more of young kids who do not seem to like Trump. I would let them all shoot my gun with the can on it if they asked. Fast forward. NFAC leader grand fuck head Jay gets arrested in his home. IN MY FUCKING TOWN. My brother said I have been training the enemy. I laughed, but thought about it a lot. I should have followed my initial instinct that I should not help them because it might bite me one day. Relevant to the topic? Not really, but the idea of having a view from both sides is advantageous because it allows you to think from multiple angles rather than 'the sky is falling' mentality. Just food for thought.

3. And this applies across a huge spectrum right now. So let it sink in. GET FUCKING ACTIVE IN YOUR COMMUNITIES. Reading this thread? Why have you not made a comment to the ATF yet? Have your wrote your congress person? (I know it doesn't do shit, but I did learn a lot about my rep in his reply which was beneficial) Do you hate the NRA now? Why don't you run for a seat? Didn't like how the election was ran? Why not work the next one as a counter or watcher to make sure it gets done right. I personally think that the gun community is one of the worst when it comes to banding together. Virginia this year was so nice to see where we had numbers. We need to multiply that in every scenario. Yes, even the braces. I know it sounds stupid, but look at BLM. Those retards band together no matter who gets killed by a cop. Their single goal is to get rid of cops. They don't care what, where, when, and why. They know something happened that can help their cause and they pounce on it. To me, it looks like they have made strides compared to us. For fucks sake, we are the ones who follow the laws, and they get more representation???? Maybe from that viewpoint our community is a lot smaller than we think? (devils advocate statement, we are a huge community) So if we want to take this brace thing and kick the hornets nest to finally repeal the NFA, we need to get more active than just complaining on this site. People bitch a ton about a particular mod on here. I personally think differently than him, but holy shit he got on some GOA board and he is doing shit. 99% of people around here can't say the same and that's why these little battles seem uphill all the time. Support, pressure, and a little bit of lock step would go a long fucking way anymore. What am I doing? I guess nothing in the big picture. I hate that about me, I need to network more.

TLDR: Get off social media, think with healthy skepticism, and start getting active in the communities. The brace could be a gateway to repeal the NFA or a stepping stone to tell the alphabet bois to fuck off. Nothing will change if we keep on bitching on here.

ETA: Come to think about it... If we brought repeal the NFA to the table and had some bad ass lawyers and groups with it.... they might just leave the braces alone to keep the NFA hahaha. I know, a man could dream right?

My Amish friends ask, "Are we a joke to you?"

With your reply here, I think we are pretty much on the same page.