Quoted: Quoted: Can we stop talking about bootcamp and OCS please? And any officer who thinks his time at TBS is anything like being a PFC in the fleet is out of his mind. Officers are babied from day one. They are protected from the violence by their NCO's. For the officers on here, what exactly do you think takes place once you walk out of the room? You think everyone gets together and holds hands? Marine officers are some of the most naieve people I have ever met. I remember being a young PFC sawgunner. I remember when I fucked something up, as soon as the officer got two steps around the corner, I had all three teamleaders beat my ass. I remember that being a daily thing. Until I became a teamleader and beat the next pfc's ass. Then I became a Sgt and slapped the squadleaders around. Officers don't go through this. Officers don't lay in bed sweating the next day at work. I've never had respect for an officer if he didn't have enlisted time. And everyone else in the grunts feels the same way. So a good officer is one who slaps around his Platoon Sergeant? This is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to learning the wrong lessons. Physical abuse aside, it's not the role of the officer to enforce discipline - we know there's a time to leave the room and let the SNCO's and NCO's handle it. Remember that grunt culture is different from the rest of the Marine Corps and has a greater tolerance for that sort of thing. I won't claim to know the 03 field firsthand - I'm not an 0302, I'm a winger. How long ago were you in? There's been a big push in recent years to stamp out hazing and it's a very different Corps than even a few years ago - I know more than one SNCO who's at terminal rank because they put their hands on a junior Marine. I never said TBS was like being a junior enlisted in the fleet - but there's enough similarities for instructional purposes.

An enlisted man makes a mistake they may stomp his guts out, an officer makes a mistake, guys are gonna be killed, his career will be O-2 or O-3, Retired. Completely different culture, officers may not receive the same physical training that enlisted do, but they receive far more "mental" training. The enlisted drill instructors at Quantico know they will NOT pass a candidate that would not be capable of leading Marines.  

Quoted: Personally, i think ALL officers should go through the enlisted ranks so they can get a taste of when being a groundpounder tastes like, being a "Mustang" is the way to go as an officer.

So you are pushing officers back 4 years before they go get a degree or go to an academy, thus making it 8 years at a minimum before they are butter bars?

For one you just massively increased their pay rate via time in service, which they will like, however they will dislike the fact they will not get as far before their 20 years hits and they retire with less rank/money.

This doesn't even cover advanced degrees that eat up offiers time (career wise).

It gives perspective, but there are plenty of good officers generated by USMA's and ROTC's that have no prior expirence.

Got a shitty 2Lt?  Blame the Sergeant that is supposed to be giving him finishing lessons and reining him in.

Nothing truly seasons an officer into a good leader except experience as an 0-1/0-2.  A stud enlisted guy can make a good or a shitty officer but no one will know either way until a few years down the officer career path.  Yes platoon leaders are important, but the .mil is more concerned with building competent 0-3/4/5/6s than with having an officer peak at the 0-2/3 level.  The training and development an 0-1/2 gets during his first leadership role is more important to his leadership development than any enlisted time, that's why junior officers (or at least most of them) start out leading a platoon instead of making coffee at BN HQ.

Quoted: Can we stop talking about bootcamp and OCS please? And any officer who thinks his time at TBS is anything like being a PFC in the fleet is out of his mind. Officers are babied from day one. They are protected from the violence by their NCO's. For the officers on here, what exactly do you think takes place once you walk out of the room? You think everyone gets together and holds hands? Marine officers are some of the most naieve people I have ever met. I remember being a young PFC sawgunner. I remember when I fucked something up, as soon as the officer got two steps around the corner, I had all three teamleaders beat my ass. I remember that being a daily thing. Until I became a teamleader and beat the next pfc's ass. Then I became a Sgt and slapped the squadleaders around. Officers don't go through this. Officers don't lay in bed sweating the next day at work. I've never had respect for an officer if he didn't have enlisted time. And everyone else in the grunts feels the same way.

I've served with a pretty poor mustang, an enlisted interpreter who became an intel guy and regimental S-2.

And I've served with many fine officers who went to Canoe U. or through ROTC. For example Then-Colonel, now General Nicholson was my reg't CO for OIF. I was on his PSD team. I would go anywhere with that man. He is the finest serving officer in the USMC in my opinion. Much of the success in Anbar (ie the Anbar Awakening Council) is due to his work.

Quoted: Quoted: Can we stop talking about bootcamp and OCS please? And any officer who thinks his time at TBS is anything like being a PFC in the fleet is out of his mind. Officers are babied from day one. They are protected from the violence by their NCO's. For the officers on here, what exactly do you think takes place once you walk out of the room? You think everyone gets together and holds hands? Marine officers are some of the most naieve people I have ever met. I remember being a young PFC sawgunner. I remember when I fucked something up, as soon as the officer got two steps around the corner, I had all three teamleaders beat my ass. I remember that being a daily thing. Until I became a teamleader and beat the next pfc's ass. Then I became a Sgt and slapped the squadleaders around. Officers don't go through this. Officers don't lay in bed sweating the next day at work. I've never had respect for an officer if he didn't have enlisted time. And everyone else in the grunts feels the same way. So a good officer is one who slaps around his Platoon Sergeant? This is exactly what I'm talking about with regard to learning the wrong lessons. Physical abuse aside, it's not the role of the officer to enforce discipline - we know there's a time to leave the room and let the SNCO's and NCO's handle it. Remember that grunt culture is different from the rest of the Marine Corps and has a greater tolerance for that sort of thing. I won't claim to know the 03 field firsthand - I'm not an 0302, I'm a winger. How long ago were you in? There's been a big push in recent years to stamp out hazing and it's a very different Corps than even a few years ago - I know more than one SNCO who's at terminal rank because they put their hands on a junior Marine. I never said TBS was like being a junior enlisted in the fleet - but there's enough similarities for instructional purposes.

Sir, I'm in now. That softer side of the USMC does not exsist on our side of the house. Now thats not exactly true, when someone gets caught, they bring in officers like you to burn the NCO in question. I am told on a daily basis to kick the crap out of my men. Take them into the tree line, take them behind the tower, etc. BUT if I hurt the kid too bad, I get burned.
You know, I'm not saying I've never met a decent officer but it's just that they need to understand that they don't deserve shit. They should stay in the office and make sure my pay is good.
I spent my entire first enlistment in the same fireteam. 1st platoon, 3rd squad, 1st fireteam. I did three tours with that platoon. 4yrs. Never changed. I think I had 4 or 5 platoon commanders in that time. They would send us some 23yr old butter bar frat boy for the deployment. We'd deploy, the frat boy would get some kill time then as soon as we got home, he'd be transfered to some desk job to pick up rank. A couple years of that and you start to loose respect for them all.

Quoted: Quoted: This is why I think All Marine Officers should do a 4 year enlisted hitch first.  Enlisted Marines really "pay" for that Eagle Globe and Anchor. All officers have to pay for their uniforms, they don't get issued jack, its issued but its taken outta their paychecks. Correct, we graduate wearing Navy uniforms with Eagle, Globe, and Anchors on them (And MARPAT). The Navy guys can re-use their khakis and parts of their SDBs. Quoted: Quoted: Youre not supposed to wear Marpat until you earn the title.  Maybe thats why you guys dont have them yet.  The Midshipmen that were training at camp horno wore BDUs except for the prior enlisted who wore Digis. So what do they wear in boot camp? Woodland cammies from the 80s (BDUs). When you get through indoc, you get the same woodland with an Eagle, Globe, and Anchor under your pocket and on your cover if you are Marine option. You have the option to purchase your own MARPAT. The MECEPs wear their MARPAT. There is no uniform allowance.

The embroidered EGA on the Digis are usually covered up with riggers tape.  

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Quoted: height=8 Quoted: At a gunshow today,   enough said Other than that I have no idea.  A marine will be around here soon.

You should capitalize Marine.

Quoted: Quoted: Youre not supposed to wear Marpat until you earn the title.  Maybe thats why you guys dont have them yet.  The Midshipmen that were training at camp horno wore BDUs except for the prior enlisted who wore Digis. So what do they wear in boot camp?

They wear digis, and The Drill Instructors HATE HATE HATE it.  I think it would be good for recruits to wear the old BDUs until the last week or so when they do dress uniform issue.

Heard the Army is dumping their version, not USMC.

Quoted: FAIL. You're not a Marine. You're a college student. If you do become a Marine, then .gov will give you more cammie than you want- I'm looking at 10 pairs in my closet right now, and I have another 15 pairs back in the states. Might start my own surplus store when I ETS.....

Shit....when I PCSed stateside from Germany they took all 4 of my sets of ACUs....I bought one set and still waiting for a supplementry issue, but Im not holding my breath, and Im NOT buying three more sets with price being near 100 bucks per set of top and bottoms.

Fortunately 4 out of 5 days out of the week, my duty uniform is a OD pilot suit (pickle suit) assault vest, boots and my foilege green beanie, or BDU PC, as I do animal control/game warden/illegal catcher here. (Can I go back to Iraq yet?)

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Quoted: height=8 Quoted: height=8 Quoted: This is why I think All Marine Officers should do a 4 year enlisted hitch first.  Enlisted Marines really "pay" for that Eagle Globe and Anchor. I've paid plenty for my bars, too. I know officers are held to a higher standard of physical fitness.  I understand that many Marine Officers are good quality Marines.  But they dont get humbled the same as a enlisted Marine.  When I say "pay" I mean someone made them hurt for it. Stories about the Corps not hitting recruits are as fake as the loch ness monster. When you report to Boot they stip you naked, slam you into a rainroom with 2 shower heads on. and then you and 80 other recruits are made to wash your ass and crotch, then your face, with no time to rinse the butt-suds from your eyes.  the whole time they have you jumping up and downhed When our DIs got bored he would take 3 random recruits into the whiskey locker to play the one arms distance game.  the room is 4' x 12' so its basicly 10 minutes of being whooped.   I was personally choked, punched, and kicked often while in boot, and Im certain every other recruit in the platoon was too. The Drill Instuctor gets pissed, he throws the metal garbage can over your head and beats the shit out of it.  He didnt hit YOU he hit the can. We had a kid who was burned right on his face with a hot iron.  He wore the burn the whole time until we went up north.  He couldnt hack it and went UA durring phase 2. At all times, we knew we were NOT Marines.  We just didnt rate. On the day My senior Drill Instructor shook my hand and addressed me as MARINE, it changed my life.  When I speak to officers, they dont seem to echo that same sence of being pushed to the brink, having your pride smashed, only to one day thank God and look back, smile and know it was all worth it.

Sounds like my days in Mike Co 3026 Jan 90 to April 90. We had some pretty abusive DI's in my Company, some of whom served stints in Leavenworth. Sgt. Vigil is one of them. I thank my drill instructors for beating the shit out of me and my fellow recruits. It made me a better Marine. I lived a pretty sheltered life before I joined the Corps, had never really been in a fight, other than a couple of schoolyard brawls in middle school. The physical abuse I received at Parris Island SC opened my eyes.
I had 3 Drill Instructors, Sgt. Lott, Sgt. Young and Sgt. Vigil. Lott and Young were 03's, they had nothing to prove, both had been in Grenada, Beruit and Panama. Sgt. Vigil was a truck driver, 5'5" tall and half American Indian. He had a short man complex and was envious of what I refer to as real Marines, combat arms Marines.
During 3rd phase of boot we were doing indoor PT, and this one recruit was half-assing it. We were doing some type of exercise that involved squatting. Sgt. Vigil walked right up to this poor kid and drop kicked him in the balls. The kid was sent to BAS, he was pissing blood. He was dropped from our plt and sent to MRP and rephased through 3rd phase. He did not allegate on Vigil, but probably should have. During the next class in Mike Company a few months later, Sgt. Vigil hit a kid across the shins with his legs over a foot locker. Snapped both of his legs like twigs. He was BCD'ed, reduced to private and sentenced to  7 years in Leavenworth.
I guess what I am getting at is that enlisted Marines have and do endure a lot of crap that Officers do not.....

Quoted: Sir, I'm in now. That softer side of the USMC does not exsist on our side of the house. Now thats not exactly true, when someone gets caught, they bring in officers like you to burn the NCO in question. I am told on a daily basis to kick the crap out of my men. Take them into the tree line, take them behind the tower, etc. BUT if I hurt the kid too bad, I get burned. You know, I'm not saying I've never met a decent officer but it's just that they need to understand that they don't deserve shit. They should stay in the office and make sure my pay is good. I spent my entire first enlistment in the same fireteam. 1st platoon, 3rd squad, 1st fireteam. I did three tours with that platoon. 4yrs. Never changed. I think I had 4 or 5 platoon commanders in that time. They would send us some 23yr old butter bar frat boy for the deployment. We'd deploy, the frat boy would get some kill time then as soon as we got home, he'd be transfered to some desk job to pick up rank. A couple years of that and you start to loose respect for them all.