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Posted: 11/11/2022 11:13:48 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 11/11/2022 11:18:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryThe Encyclopedia Brittanica is Russian disinformation? Really? Are you smart enough to point out where they got the history wrong? Cite some sources then and shame me. Should be easy to do, yes? |
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Posted: 11/11/2022 11:36:40 PM EDT
[#3]
NavyDoc is largely right except for a couple dates being a few hundred years off, and the major error, the Ukrainian State didn't exist until 1917 (and has continuously existed since then) but the Ukrainian Nation has existed for more than a millennia.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 12:01:32 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NavyDoc is largely right except for a couple dates being a few hundred years off, and the major error, the Ukrainian State didn't exist until 1917 (and has continuously existed since then) but the Ukrainian Nation has existed for more than a millennia. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 12:07:10 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the Ukraine was an independent state for more than a millennia? That doesn’t jibe with the history—unless you mean something different by the term Ukrainian Nation. As an ethnic/religious/linguistic region? Certainly. As an independent state? Not at all. Nation and state are not the same thing. Their national identity has existed even when they were Poles. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 12:10:41 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nation and state are not the same thing. Their national identity has existed even when they were Poles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: the Ukraine was an independent state for more than a millennia? That doesn’t jibe with the history—unless you mean something different by the term Ukrainian Nation. As an ethnic/religious/linguistic region? Certainly. As an independent state? Not at all. Nation and state are not the same thing. Their national identity has existed even when they were Poles. Fair enough, but, then they were still part of Poland, yes? The Welsh are still very much Welsh but they are still part of the UK. Not saying that they belong to Russia or the Poles or the Lithuanians or anyone but themselves but the facts of the history or the region still are the facts. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 12:12:22 AM EDT
[#7]
If you can watch this, I feel sorry for your mother. Go do your damn chores, slacker!
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Posted: 11/12/2022 12:22:47 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the Ukraine was an independent state for more than a millennia? That doesn’t jibe with the history—unless you mean something different by the term Ukrainian Nation. As an ethnic/religious/linguistic region? Certainly. As an independent state? Not at all. Who fucking cares who did what to who 500 years ago? How about Russia signed multiple treaties respecting Ukraine's sovereignty and borders, then violated them, launching an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, and Russian troops engaged in rape, murder, theft, torture, and other crimes? This is really all that matters here. Russia violated international law and its own treaty commitments and is engaging in the same kind of violence we last saw in Europe around 1940. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 12:24:44 AM EDT
[#9]
I assume these "facts" are covered..
We send Ukraine $87 trillion every week Zelensky was made President in 2014 by the CIA Zelensky is a billionaire Zelensky isn't even in the country Ukraine is the most corrupt country in the world Putin had to defend Russia from NATO by invading a country with NATO members on its borders Ukranians and Russians are the same people Ukranians aren't the ones fighting Zelensky named his dog after a gay pornstar The US blew up the pipeline so it could deliver more natural gas to Europe via its own gas pipeline across the Atlantic. Etc etc |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 3:20:02 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ukraine is willing to be a victim and not defend themselves, so they can be a free shit nation. "Not defend themselves" The battle of Kyiv, Snake Island, Trosyanets, Kharkiv, and Kherson say you're wrong  @pocketpkn |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 3:28:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stalin and Beria we're Georgian Quote HistoryQuoted: Stalin and Beria we're Georgian Who were in Moscow at the Politburo sending orders. Quoted: "How much has the US given Ukraine? $50 billion dollars! Not enough for this welfare queen (Zelensky)." - Candace Owens on TC last night Lol! Here's the only place I could find the clip: https://www.foxnews.com/video/6315358859112 Candance, for all her smarts, is a bit naive on the international circles. Quoted: They used to have russian sympathizers in the gov. They kicked them out when Zelensky was elected. They did what should have happened when trump took office. The response to the house cleaning was the initial invasion that obammy let happen. Remember I will be more flexible after the election? On the positive side, their military has been using the western military model, and have been training to that doctrine, instead of the old soviet model. They have been forming an nco corps, learning tactics, and putting decision making in the same hands on the battlefield that the west uses. It is proving quite effective using the old stuff we had in storage. Russia is throwing bodies into the line within a month of dragging them off the street. Ukraine held on with their existing troops while they spent 4+ months properly training troops by western instructors, and now have classes graduating weekly to add to the mix, and have the luxury of rotation. This is the reason they will win as long as they have the means. They have a pipeline of trained personnel vs the meat targets from russia. Russia has stripped the military of it's training corps and sent them to the line. Same with the nuke troops. They have been sending anyone trained at anything into the mix. They are fucking stupid. Still do. They're still weeding them out even now. Quoted: So the complaint is - Ukraine should have had more foresight that Russia was a big asshole? - They were not as fast to react as the Us millitary. - Ukraine should go on the offence more becuase if America was invaded the US would be balls to the wall fighting(*). ......... - I stopped watching becuase it's pretty much not even relevant or at the very least not correctly weighing the gained value vs lost value of sent weapons systems. Zelensky was a bit naive going into 2022. He learned quickly. Quoted: And 80 years ago Germany murdered millions in the camps an the Japanese attacked the US and marched thousands to their deaths in Bataan. Your point is? Speaking of reading history. The Ukraine was not a nation for a thousand years—from the fall of the Kievian Rus in the 9th century until 1917 there was no such thing as a Ukrainian nation. Crimea was never part of Ukraine until 1954. Before that it was Russian and before 1783 it was Ottoman. So if we’re are going to go with the “read history” thing, you’ve got to read ALL of it, not just the parts that support your limited understanding The Ukrainian state is only about 100 or so years old. The Ukrainian nation is a lot older. People have the right to self determination. Russia has no problem allowing Ukraine to leave in 1991 and signing a treaty promising to respect their territory when it was convenient. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 2:14:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I supported them in Feb. I supported them in July. I sue the fuck haven't changed my tune and wholeheartedly support them today. I will tomorrow as well. Same, although I supported them during Euromaidan it was my "current thing" in 2014. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 2:17:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True, but they all come out of the general fund initially and our debt has gone up, that budgeted money has to come from somewhere and it either reduces the budget elsewhere like those other budget items or we have to cut our own defense to cover the shortfall in the defense budget or we have to create debt to cover it. The money has to come from somewhere so it’s a bit disingenuous to discard the comment with “it’s a different budget item.” Let me know when you see the transfer of VA and SSA budget to DOD to pay for the transfer for already procured items. That's FOIA-able and you certainly have a sympathetic wing of the GOP and Democrats to lean in on that. And hell if it actually happened it would need to stop because that would actually be an issue... otherwise, its not. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 2:18:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Candance, for all her smarts, is a bit naive on the international circles. Same Candace that thinks the moon landings were fake? Naive is a pretty gentle description. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 2:20:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I assume these "facts" are covered.. We send Ukraine $87 trillion every week Zelensky was made President in 2014 by the CIA Zelensky is a billionaire Zelensky isn't even in the country Ukraine is the most corrupt country in the world Putin had to defend Russia from NATO by invading a country with NATO members on its borders Ukranians and Russians are the same people Ukranians aren't the ones fighting Zelensky named his dog after a gay pornstar The US blew up the pipeline so it could deliver more natural gas to Europe via its own gas pipeline across the Atlantic. Etc etc Actually none of that is talked about in this video. He goes some references of one circumstance where kit they paid for from donations went missing when they arrived. It was mostly recovered except for one bag. Which was then recovered later on... then they flew back to Ukraine to continue training people. There's random complaints about a SOF guy who spent years doing CT training missions of low-intensity fights about having a nation ramp up an whole army with modern rocketry, artillery, and mechanized infantry... |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 2:36:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP....Ukraine had an estimated 3-7 million people starved to death by Russians less than 100 years ago. give Russia the opportunity and they would starve more Ukrainians and move ethnic Russians into the empty homes. maybe you should read a few history books. nobody helped them back then and no foreign army is helping them now. Don't bother stating facts and history, people like this already has their minds made up so don't waste your time. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 2:41:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't bother stating facts and history, people like this already has their minds made up so don't waste your time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OP....Ukraine had an estimated 3-7 million people starved to death by Russians less than 100 years ago. give Russia the opportunity and they would starve more Ukrainians and move ethnic Russians into the empty homes. maybe you should read a few history books. nobody helped them back then and no foreign army is helping them now. Don't bother stating facts and history, people like this already has their minds made up so don't waste your time. You mean the policy of the Soviet Union led by a Georgian and being caring out by Ukrainians? |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 2:45:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually none of that is talked about in this video. He goes some references of one circumstance where kit they paid for from donations went missing when they arrived. It was mostly recovered except for one bag. Which was then recovered later on... then they flew back to Ukraine to continue training people. There's random complaints about a SOF guy who spent years doing CT training missions of low-intensity fights about having a nation ramp up an whole army with modern rocketry, artillery, and mechanized infantry... |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 3:11:22 PM EDT
[#19]
When Russian invades Alaska because the Tsar cheated the Russian people by selling their land to America for next to nothing...
We should probably fight back too? |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 3:12:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mean the policy of the Soviet Union led by a Georgian and being caring out by Ukrainians? Who were running things from Moscow and the politburo? Trying to deflect the blame doesn't work. Qouting one member of the politburo doesn't cast the blame on the guilty party-Russia. The politburo from 1930-1934 Andrewy Andreyev-Russian Lazar kaganovich- Russian Mikhail Kalinin-Russian Sergey Kirov-Russian Stanislav Kosior-Polish Valerian Kuybyshev-Russian Vyacheslav Molotov-Russian Grigol ordzhonikdidze-Georgian Janis Rudzutaks-latvian Alexei Rykov-Russian Stalin-Georgian Kliment Voroshilov-Russian Of the 12 members 8 were Russian. Of the remaining 4, 2 were Georgian and one Pole and one Latvian. In the Politburo, located in the Kremlin Senate, Moscow, Russia. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 3:15:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't bother stating facts and history, people like this already has their minds made up so don't waste your time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OP....Ukraine had an estimated 3-7 million people starved to death by Russians less than 100 years ago. give Russia the opportunity and they would starve more Ukrainians and move ethnic Russians into the empty homes. maybe you should read a few history books. nobody helped them back then and no foreign army is helping them now. Don't bother stating facts and history, people like this already has their minds made up so don't waste your time. The hypocrisy of that statement. God damn. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 3:32:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And 80 years ago Germany murdered millions in the camps an the Japanese attacked the US and marched thousands to their deaths in Bataan. Your point is? Speaking of reading history. The Ukraine was not a nation for a thousand years—from the fall of the Kievian Rus in the 9th century until 1917 there was no such thing as a Ukrainian nation. Crimea was never part of Ukraine until 1954. Before that it was Russian and before 1783 it was Ottoman. So if we’re are going to go with the “read history” thing, you’ve got to read ALL of it, not just the parts that support your limited understanding Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: OP....Ukraine had an estimated 3-7 million people starved to death by Russians less than 100 years ago. give Russia the opportunity and they would starve more Ukrainians and move ethnic Russians into the empty homes. maybe you should read a few history books. nobody helped them back then and no foreign army is helping them now. And 80 years ago Germany murdered millions in the camps an the Japanese attacked the US and marched thousands to their deaths in Bataan. Your point is? Speaking of reading history. The Ukraine was not a nation for a thousand years—from the fall of the Kievian Rus in the 9th century until 1917 there was no such thing as a Ukrainian nation. Crimea was never part of Ukraine until 1954. Before that it was Russian and before 1783 it was Ottoman. So if we’re are going to go with the “read history” thing, you’ve got to read ALL of it, not just the parts that support your limited understanding USA wasn’t a nation until a couple of hundred years ago. Some territories didn’t even become states until the 20th Century. Awaiting Hawaiian, Inuit and native separatists to declare independence, followed by invasion from Mexico. History and all. Even the Soviets acknowledged the existence of Ukrainian people as a distinct people and language. And the Russians again recognized Ukrainian independence and borders, Crimea and all, thirty years ago. Nitpicking Pereyaslav Rada as the only point to justify Russian treachery and lies is parroting Putin propaganda. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 4:21:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: USA wasn’t a nation until a couple of hundred years ago. Some territories didn’t even become states until the 20th Century. Awaiting Hawaiian, Inuit and native separatists to declare independence, followed by invasion from Mexico. History and all. Even the Soviets acknowledged the existence of Ukrainian people as a distinct people and language. And the Russians again recognized Ukrainian independence and borders, Crimea and all, thirty years ago. Nitpicking Pereyaslav Rada as the only point to justify Russian treachery and lies is parroting Putin propaganda. Alaska wasn't acquired until the 1800s and purchased from Russia. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 4:34:03 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who were running things from Moscow and the politburo? Trying to deflect the blame doesn't work. Qouting one member of the politburo doesn't cast the blame on the guilty party-Russia. The politburo from 1930-1934 Andrewy Andreyev-Russian Lazar kaganovich- Russian Mikhail Kalinin-Russian Sergey Kirov-Russian Stanislav Kosior-Polish Valerian Kuybyshev-Russian Vyacheslav Molotov-Russian Grigol ordzhonikdidze-Georgian Janis Rudzutaks-latvian Alexei Rykov-Russian Stalin-Georgian Kliment Voroshilov-Russian Of the 12 members 8 were Russian. Of the remaining 4, 2 were Georgian and one Pole and one Latvian. In the Politburo, located in the Kremlin Senate, Moscow, Russia. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You mean the policy of the Soviet Union led by a Georgian and being caring out by Ukrainians? Who were running things from Moscow and the politburo? Trying to deflect the blame doesn't work. Qouting one member of the politburo doesn't cast the blame on the guilty party-Russia. The politburo from 1930-1934 Andrewy Andreyev-Russian Lazar kaganovich- Russian Mikhail Kalinin-Russian Sergey Kirov-Russian Stanislav Kosior-Polish Valerian Kuybyshev-Russian Vyacheslav Molotov-Russian Grigol ordzhonikdidze-Georgian Janis Rudzutaks-latvian Alexei Rykov-Russian Stalin-Georgian Kliment Voroshilov-Russian Of the 12 members 8 were Russian. Of the remaining 4, 2 were Georgian and one Pole and one Latvian. In the Politburo, located in the Kremlin Senate, Moscow, Russia. Since was Russia was not a state at the time, how can you blame Russia? Oh that is right you can only pedantic and exacting when it goes your way like how do you launder a HIMARS? but when being pedantic about was not being Russia being led by a Russian, You get upset about deflecting? |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 4:42:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When Russian invades Alaska because the Tsar cheated the Russian people by selling their land to America for next to nothing... We should probably fight back too? The Alaskans should do it themselves. Pull all US forces to the lower 48. I don't want my kid getting drafted. 
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Posted: 11/12/2022 4:55:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since was Russia was not a state at the time, how can you blame Russia? Oh that is right you can only pedantic and exacting when it goes your way like how do you launder a HIMARS? but when being pedantic about was not being Russia being led by a Russian, You get upset about deflecting? Because it was decisions made by Moscow in the Politburo, not in Riga, Warsaw, or anywhere else. Government collapse really only absolves you of responsibility if you try to change your ways and don't have the same people, same ideology, and the same symbols. Russia gets to keep the Security council seat formerly occupied by the Soviet Union. Russia has decried the collapse of the Soviet union as the greatest calamity of the last century Russia flies the old SFSR flags Russia has the same expansionist, genocidal ideology that the Soviet Union had. 100 years earlier the Soviet Union invaded Poland, The baltics, and Ukraine in an effort to reach Central Europe. Russia has an ex-KGB guy who was "elected" running the government. Russia is trying to bring back the glory days of the Soviet Union on the backs of unwilling people. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 4:58:43 PM EDT
[#27]
Rated troll.
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Posted: 11/12/2022 5:02:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You mean the policy of the Soviet Union led by a Georgian and being caring out by Ukrainians? Oh come the fuck on this is such a potatobrained bitchmade argument. Like saying Germany was innocent in WWII because Hitler was actually Austrian. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 5:47:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because it was decisions made by Moscow in the Politburo, not in Riga, Warsaw, or anywhere else. Government collapse really only absolves you of responsibility if you try to change your ways and don't have the same people, same ideology, and the same symbols. Russia gets to keep the Security council seat formerly occupied by the Soviet Union. Russia has decried the collapse of the Soviet union as the greatest calamity of the last century Russia flies the old SFSR flags Russia has the same expansionist, genocidal ideology that the Soviet Union had. 100 years earlier the Soviet Union invaded Poland, The baltics, and Ukraine in an effort to reach Central Europe. Russia has an ex-KGB guy who was "elected" running the government. Russia is trying to bring back the glory days of the Soviet Union on the backs of unwilling people. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Since was Russia was not a state at the time, how can you blame Russia? Oh that is right you can only pedantic and exacting when it goes your way like how do you launder a HIMARS? but when being pedantic about was not being Russia being led by a Russian, You get upset about deflecting? Because it was decisions made by Moscow in the Politburo, not in Riga, Warsaw, or anywhere else. Government collapse really only absolves you of responsibility if you try to change your ways and don't have the same people, same ideology, and the same symbols. Russia gets to keep the Security council seat formerly occupied by the Soviet Union. Russia has decried the collapse of the Soviet union as the greatest calamity of the last century Russia flies the old SFSR flags Russia has the same expansionist, genocidal ideology that the Soviet Union had. 100 years earlier the Soviet Union invaded Poland, The baltics, and Ukraine in an effort to reach Central Europe. Russia has an ex-KGB guy who was "elected" running the government. Russia is trying to bring back the glory days of the Soviet Union on the backs of unwilling people. Just pointed out the inability to be consistent, well other than your hate of Russia |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 5:51:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh come the fuck on this is such a potatobrained bitchmade argument. Like saying Germany was innocent in WWII because Hitler was actually Austrian. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You mean the policy of the Soviet Union led by a Georgian and being caring out by Ukrainians? Oh come the fuck on this is such a potatobrained bitchmade argument. Like saying Germany was innocent in WWII because Hitler was actually Austrian. Just pointing out facts, because you know history and facts are a stubborn thing. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 6:13:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just pointing out facts, because you know history and facts are a stubborn thing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You mean the policy of the Soviet Union led by a Georgian and being caring out by Ukrainians? Oh come the fuck on this is such a potatobrained bitchmade argument. Like saying Germany was innocent in WWII because Hitler was actually Austrian. Just pointing out facts, because you know history and facts are a stubborn thing. Yep, utter BS "fact" that I've only ever heard promulgated by Russians to somehow gloss over that part of their history of having supported that murderous butcher Stalin. If fact, Russians consider Stalin to have been one of their greatest Leaders (whether Georgian, Martian, whatever...). (Oh, but don't you know, the poor Russians were held spell bound by that practitioner of some Georgian black arts; Stalin's crimes are Georgian crimes, not crimes committed by the good, gentle, and kind Russians who only wanted the best for themselves and their very loved neighbors in the near abroad.) Can you imagine a Germany where Hitler statues and pictures were publicly displayed and celebrated? Well, in Russia today that scum Stalin is celebrated publicly. (But I guess that's ok, since he was just good ol' Uncle Joe to the Allies...) |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 8:43:44 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just pointed out the inability to be consistent, well other than your hate of Russia I am being consistent. And not emotional, either. Nobody has been able to show me how the big guy gets 10% or money laundering off a military aid Himars
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:54:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the Ukraine was an independent state for more than a millennia? That doesn’t jibe with the history—unless you mean something different by the term Ukrainian Nation. As an ethnic/religious/linguistic region? Certainly. As an independent state? Not at all. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: NavyDoc is largely right except for a couple dates being a few hundred years off, and the major error, the Ukrainian State didn't exist until 1917 (and has continuously existed since then) but the Ukrainian Nation has existed for more than a millennia. Nation is not synonymous with state, which is why the term nation-state exists. Americans use them interchangeably, which has muddied things, and I'm sure you could find some American dictionaries of recent vintage that treat them as near-synonyms, but traditionally in English they mean different things. Nation is tied to ethnicity, usually, or at least to an overarching culture (like the variation upon English culture that once united most Americans regardless of whether they were ethnically British or not). Ukrainian nation is a reference to Ukrainian ethnicity, which entails not just genetic ancestry, but also language, traditions, music, dress, and other cultural traits that make Ukrainians distinct from other ethnicities. Not all Ukrainian citizens are ethnically Ukrainian, as the land has harbored a number of different peoples, such as Poles, Magyars, Tatars, Russians, and others (although historical Soviet ethnic cleansing has reduced this diversity to some extent), although I suspect the current situation is promoting a lot of unity in much of the country. Honestly, whether or not Ukraine has existed as a state for a couple of decades, a couple of centuries, or a couple of millennia is entirely irrelevant. Russia does not have any legitimate claims to any of Ukraine's territory as claimed when Russia first invaded in 2014. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:00:14 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who were in Moscow at the Politburo sending orders. Candance, for all her smarts, is a bit naive on the international circles. Still do. They're still weeding them out even now. Zelensky was a bit naive going into 2022. He learned quickly. The Ukrainian state is only about 100 or so years old. The Ukrainian nation is a lot older. People have the right to self determination. Russia has no problem allowing Ukraine to leave in 1991 and signing a treaty promising to respect their territory when it was convenient. I don't entirely agree with this part, but it's been an idea that has been used to promote secession and decolonization, even when those things would were bad things under the circumstances. While I don't think this applies to Ukraine, many people lack the capacity for self-rule, would be vulnerable to outside powers were they to go their own way, or cannot form a viable nation-state ("Palestine" is a perfect example of the last one). If a people are not being tyrannized or oppressed, or otherwise misruled, I can't really say that they have a right to leave, by force of arms if necessary, nor do I think deciding everything by plebiscite is the way to go for things, but this has become more commonly accepted in our more "progressive" modern era. It's an idea borne out of nationalism (a radical idea that sprang forth alongside socialism from the French Revolution) and also used by internationalists on the Left in more modern times as a means of undermining Western powers and others (such as in the colonies). |
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