Most forward deployed is not the same as most often deployed.

Of course, with a hot war on, 2ID really should tone down its rhetoric regarding forward deployment in Korea - especially when two of its maneuver brigades (or do they also have  5 now?) have done multiple tours in support of the GWOT.

I really just quoted the above bit, because I found it funny coming from a Marine.  

As for MEU deployments - the Army has no history or concept of deployments equating to floats at sea (even if the same deterrent principle is in effect), so it might as well be a completely difference word.

im here to tell you... GREAT IMAGINATION!!!

There are fine Marines and Soldiers in both branches, there are also plenty of shit-birds in both.  The USMC is smaller and specialized for a particular role, the Army is larger, better funded and more diverse.  USMC attends many Army schools and training.  All the fancy gear in the world does not matter if you train like shit, that goes for both branches.

But the bottom line has to go to the Army simply because they have more capability.

But I have a request for our Marines brethren:  Please try to pay more attention to mission briefings and follow OPORD's.  So when you know there will be a passage of lines, you do not open fire on the friendly units approaching from your 6 on our side of the wire.  And again please do not engage the same friendly unit when returning for another scheduled passage of lines.  And when your platoon leader is screaming CEASE FIRE over the radio, that does not mean reload and charlie mike.  Just a little personal request based on experience.

Here's another reason I have to go with Marines.  While at Paris Island for Marine Corps basic training, three of my fellow recruits were prior-service Army, two of whom were E-5 and above, one of whom was an E-4.  To transfer from the Marines to the Army, I am not required to attend Army basic training.

You've got to define your goal.  If you want raw shoot'n and kill'n or holding territory already taken.



Marines are the lighter weight strike arm - a lot has to do with the pogue to shooter ratio.



Army is better able to long term hold ground.

That has more to do with the cult comment above, than anything else.

Army basic training is designed to be just that - basic training.  Marine Corps boot camp is in indoctrination / initiation process.

Army gets all the cool newer stuff.

Basic training is basic training.... You don't learn advanced stuff until you get to your unit.



The only thing Marines have an edge in as far as bootcamp/basic is that marksmanship training is a couple weeks longer.



 

Exactly.




 

Actually, that brings up an interesting question that I've had for some time.  During boot camp, we were issued our M-16 in the first few days of training.  We handled them every day, without exception.  We learned to break them down and reassemble them, learned the names of every part, and learned the weapon's basic stats all before setting eyes on the range or a live round.  Once on the range, we qualified on the KD course, firing shots from 200 to 500 yards.



Next, we learned to field strip, clean, fire, how to apply immediate action for, and actually fired the following weapons:



M-249 SAW

M-60 (I am old, this was in 1990)

M-203 (grenade launcher, chalk rounds –– we'd already taken care of the rifle part)

AT-4 (the .45 training round, not the actual rocket, of course)

M9 pistol



We also spent a week or so at BWT, learning basic infantry tactics, NBC defense, land nav, and very basic combat training in general.  Here, we got to work with grenades (hit the pit, clear the room, throw live grenade).



Finally, we also had to prove that we could swim (wearing utilities and boots, helmet, flak vest, carrying rubber rifle, loaded pack) and survive in the water.



Once basic training is over, it's off to Marine Combat Training, where every Marine goes, regardless of MOS.  Here, we learned more advanced infantry skills (MOUT, patrolling, ambushes, reacting to ambushes, breakdown, setup, and firing of M2 and Mk-19, egress from various vehicles, perimeter establishment, etc.).  Once you make it through all that, then you're off to your MOS school.  Infantry goes to the School of Infantry for more in-depth infantry training, mechanics go to mechanics school, and the arty guys go arty school (at an Army school, actually, when I was in).



Once you're in the Fleet and doing whatever it is you do, you're expected to engage in lots of "continuing education."  You have to take refresher courses on all the basic infantry weapons I named above, field skills, combat skills, etc.  When you get promoted, it's back for more training, which inevitably involves more infantry tactical training designed for Marines of the rank in question (fireteam leader, squad leader, platoon sergeant, etc.).  Additionally, you have to qualify with the rifle every year and undergo swim qualification every year (to make sure you can still swim with your pack, helmet, rifle, etc.).



Does the Army do all that (and this is a serious question –– I really don't know the answer)?



Finally, whether the Army does all that or not, I can say that I would gladly share a fighting hole with any of the Army grunts I've met.  They are all professional and good at what they do.



 

Wut?

Army––-primarily infantry.
Marines––-primarily motivated infantry  =o)

Our marksmanship training is two weeks, not "a couple of weeks longer" (which would imply-if I'm reading you correctly-that at a minimum, the Army trains for one week only-something I have no idea about since I never attended their basic training syllibus).

You know, you'd really have to attend our recruit training to be qualified to know just what's different about our "basic".

For our non-infantry MOS "boots", MCT is considered "4th phase" of recruit training (unofficially).  You could add the time spent there to the total "basic" training package, so that instead of 12 weeks it's now 15 or 16 weeks.  I'm not talking about Drill Instructors yelling and screaming, but the students at MCT are still boots, and treated as such.  It's required before attending their MOS school.  I don't know if the Army has anything like it or not.  

So yes, a "basically trained" Marine has spent more time in training than his counterpart in the U.S. Army before attending his MOS school.  I'm not saying Soldiers are poorly trained either.  I'm disagreeing with your statements regarding our training standards.  I respect the fact that you are polite and civil about your statements (a level of maturity often lacking around here...), but your perceptions are incorrect.

Army

Infantry
Airborne Infantry
Mechanized Infantry
Motorized Infantry
Air Assualt Infanty
Rangers

Marines

Infantry

How are they defining "most deployed"?
I assume they any unit deployment counts toward this ranking and not the whole division.
Are they counting individual troop deployment time or do the rotating/turn over soldiers in the unit before the unit is deployed again

Not bashing just asking for explanation of the term "most deployed" and and original source for the statement.
I would have guessed the element from the 75th Ranger Regiment would have been deployed more often than 10th Mountain.

Monk

ETA...Let's get Snopes on this

We don't have anything like your airborne units, but our infantry can be "mechanized" to a degree in our LAV 25s and "tuna boats".  While the Marines can't fight from within the AAV or LAV, the vehicles themselves have offensive turret-mounted weapons.  Our LAV crewmen hold an infantry MOS.

I didn't know the Army had any motorized infantry units left.  The last one I heard of was at Ft. Lewis, but it's been gone a long time.

The biggest difference between the Army and USMC is that in the USMC, the "poor, bloody infantry" is the maneuver element, whereas in the U.S. Army, armor is the primary maneuver element.  The infantry battalions that get "chopped out" to the MEUs (especially MEU SOCs) perform a variety of training above and beyond the more standard training packages that the non-MEU battalions train for.  It's a rotating cycle mandated by MEU deployments.

Of course, the other big difference is that the Ground Combat Element has it's own organic CAS available to it.  Also, everything from our Arty to our Airwing is their to support the grunts.  As it should be.  

It's always a temptation to compare the two, but our missions are so different, it's not really a valid exercise to do so.    

Strykers......................... they would have motorized infantry.

You know, I hear the Airwing argument, I'm not sure the Army doesn't have as much support. I believe they have more artillery, and certainly more attack copters on a divisional level.

The difference is when the Army needs fixed wing support, they have to call trhe Air Force.

The biggest difference is MEU's being able to be tailored to a mission, where Army Divisions deploy as Divisions, not just parts.

Seems like we have these threads about once a week...and I never get tired of them.

Rangers are TECHNICALLY Special Operations. I am talking about regular forces. And I am not really sure how often they forward deploy.



 

Marines are the little left jab, the Army is the big right hook.

+1 I love general forum

No better friend, No worse enemy

I think we can all agree that both Marines and Soldiers are getting more than enough deployment time.
A buddy of mine caught 3 deployments in a 3 year assignment to grunt battalion.
He was there for initial invasion (4+ months IIRC) and then 2 more standard 7 month deployments.
7 month deployments are lot better than 12-15 months.

Monk

Fraternization is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). It falls under a subparagraph of Article 134, and is defined by the Manual For Courts-martial (MCM). According to the MCM, the "elements of proof" for the offense of fraternization are:


(1) That the accused was a commissioned or warrant officer;

(2) That the accused fraternized on terms of military equality with one or more certain enlisted member(s) in a certain manner;

(3) That the accused then knew the person(s) to be (an) enlisted member(s);

(4) That such fraternization violated the custom of the accused's service that officers shall not fraternize with enlisted members on terms of military equality; and

(5) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.

+ 1 to 10th Mountain

We are the most deployed infantry unit in the US military, and that includes you Airborne guys.  The Marine Corps may be the most deployed service, but the most deployed infantry unit is 10th Mountain.  To the 101st, yeah we do a shit load of air assaults at Drum to, and yes I do have my air assault wings.  The 173rd couldn't hold what us regular legs did for 16 months in A-Stan, in fact they had to completely pull out of our Bravo Company AO.  To you Marines, I was in the battle for Fallujah, as were other Army infantry units, and I was doing patrols in that city months before the Marines showed up when we were attached to the 82nd Airborne. The 82nd CSM said we were the best line company he had under his command, and gave us a Airborne coin during the same speech.  I still remember those Marines guarding TQ always commenting on how crazy we were for going into that town in individual PLT foot patrols.  

Now I will give you Marines one thing, you do shorter deployments, and maybe that is why you think you deploy more.  Just remember though, for every 2 deployments/redeployments you guys do, the Army unit has stayed in combat for 16 to 18 months straight.  Now I have a twin brother  who was Marine infantry, and I don't think you could really tell a difference.  Sometimes we challenge each other when we go shooting or running, and it really is 50/50 on who would win.  That might have more to do with the fact that he is my brother.  

I mean come the fuck on 10th Mountian infantrymen killed the alien robot in War of the Worlds .  What happened to that Marine BCT huh?  Guys I love you all, no hard feelings.

How does the 10th deploy?
Is it battalion, regiment or brigade sized elements?

Monk

I agree, the Army is much more lax than the Marine Corps regarding fraternization.

Korea - 24th Infantry Division
Vietnam - Special Forces.
Grenada - 82nd Airborne & 2nd Ranger Battalion.
Panama - 82nd Airborne Division, 1st & 2nd Ranger Battalions.
Desert Shield - 82nd Airborne Division.
Mogadishu - 3rd Ranger Battalion & 10th Mountain Division
Afghanistan - 5th Special Forces Group.
Iraqi Freedom - 3rd Infantry Division, 1st Armored Division, 101st Airborne Division, USMC Expeditionary Force, 173rd airborne brigade.

yup !!! best post

You may want to check some of your facts there, also how did the Task Force Smith turn out?

how did operation scotland turn out?  you need to check your facts also. ohhhh thats right, marines don't bleed red blood... they don't bleed at all.
once again we have history and the marine corp version of history.

Well one of those facts he posted was totally wrong.  Read through them, there is one that the force he said was first was there months after the event started.

On on Khe Sahn, if I remember right the Marine garrison never fell.

Well, if we are going to go down this road...  I will pile on.

Speaking of blood - how did Chapultapec turn out for them?  Funny how they spin that into lore, and gloss over the defeat - and the service that rode to the rescue.

Seriously though, how does the effectiveness of TF Smith have anything to do with the question of who was there first?

Why is every Marine unit slaughtered proof they get the tougher fights, and every Army unit slaughtered proof they fight poorly?  Same tired old nonsense.

I love these threads.  

your wrong for piling on young man! you should be ashamed of yourself! i digress. operation pegasus ended the siege at khe sanh. in 15 days the 1st cav with support from airforce did what the marines and marine air couldn't do in 77 days. 1sg suthdorph was with the 1st cav at khe sanh during operation pegasus. top  clearly stated the 1st cav stayed out of the bunkers because they smelled like piss and shit from all the marines that were too afraid to hit the latrine.
(i have nothing but respect for the marine corp... even with their fucked up version of history)

Lets compare and contrast since most of you aren't up on your history.  

The Marine Corps did over emphasis its part in the battle of Chapultepec.  The battle was lead by the US Army officer and 40 Marines were used as shock troops who did seize their objective,  no matter the cost. (Many of the Civil War notables fought in this battle: Pickett, Longstreet, Lee, Jackson, etc)  

On the other hand TF Smith were the first ground force into Korea.  Unfortunately five years of garrison duty had left them soft and unprepared for combat.  An additional problem was they were poorly equipped (their firing battery actually had 4 condemn tubes)  and told that the NKPA would run at the sight of Americas. Consequently it goes down as one the greatest defeats in the history of US forces, were most not killed were captured and executed.  

Which rallying cry would say was worse,  the often heard "No more Task Force Smiths" or the from "Halls of Montezuma."

But that still doesn't change the fact one of the cited events, the army was there way after the fact.  

The Marine mission was never to break out, it was draw the enemy into US fires.  Similary to the initial German OpPlan for Verdun.

Also have you ever been under constant artillery or mortar fire before?  I think not if you think it is unusual to not leave your fighting position, (read Band of Brothers and their time in the Ardennes and why people may not want to leave their fighting position.

3rd brigade 3ID is up there, going on 43 months deployed for OIF at the start of their next 12 month tour real soon.

I love it when marines bring up all of their combat tours, the total of which equal my last deployment....

I work with a lot of AD marines, from recon to supply.   good guys, and of course all of them do nothing but talk shit all day about how awesome the corps is.  when it comes down to it, they are just like us, only with a bit more visible pride in their service.

the majority of army infantry are mechanized.  I deployed in a mech infantry company with bradleys.

1ID - mech infantry (heavy) bradleys
2ID - mech infantry (medium/heavy) strykers
3ID - mech infantry (heavy) bradleys
4ID - mech infantry (heavy) bradleys
1CD - mech infantry (heavy) bradleys
2ACR - mech infantry (heavy) bradleys
3ACR - mech infantry (heavy) bradleys
11 ACR - mech infantry (heavy) bradleys
1st Armored - mech infantry (heavy) bradleys



10th mountain - light infantry
101 ABN - light infantry
82nd ABN - light infantry
25ID - light/medium infantry - strykers
75th ranger - light infantry
173rd ABN light infantry

Operation Scotland?  Yes.  Westy Westmorland really fucked that one up.  

The Marine Corps is still driving the trucks the Army abandoned during their headlong, screaming like little raped bitches "withdrawal" from the Chinese in during the Chosin campaign.

oh lookie a seabag lawyer....

wow just wow.. you really dont have a clue

G-Dubya likes us more.  

I think the conclusion to be drawn here is that the service that's needed for a particular operation will be used according to its unique capabilities.  

the Army's Mech Infantry has superior track pad changing skills then the Marines.

What I was told was that while the Airborne was first, they came in so light that they had to come knocking at the Marines door for some food by day two.  But that is just what I heard.

The Marine Corps didn't exactly turn back the horde.

Ok so explain this:  4 year sgt in the Army goes into the Marine Corps for a renenlistment.  Has to go through our bootcamp and can only get lcpl.  Why?  Our NCOs (e-4) do more shit than 2 Army NCOs put together.

You Army boys have no idea what the Corps is like and we have no idea what the Army is like but from what I heard from Marines going to Army is that the Army is a fucking joke when compared to the Marines.

Everyone knows our bootcamp is the toughest and longest.  People who go all balls out go into the Marine Corps because they know its the hardest.  We havn't lowered our standards physically and mentally like the Army has.  

Fuck these Army vs Marine threads.... Marine Corps is the hardest and toughest branch this country has.  We don't have the high speed gear but we make do.

M16-10 pounds
Boots-4 pounds
Body armor-25 pounds
Helmet-6 pounds
LBV and one filled canteen-7 pounds

ILBE-50

Swim qual 2.

LMFAO

Semper Fi

Um.... NO.  They are bigger and take more equipment... IE they are not ready in time