Massad Ayoob hits another one right out of the park! - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Massad Ayoob hits another one right out of the park! (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 12/16/2012 10:56:26 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Biometric locks. No keys to steal. No combos to remember.

Not ready for prime time, but sure seems like a lot of money and effort when a gun on a hip or ankle is so... easy.

Posted: 12/16/2012 12:36:59 PM EDT

[#2]

Excellent article from Mas.

Tag for more people to read it. Sadly, as Mas points out, america no longer looks for solutions to our problems, now they just look for control over the masses. If you notice, the dirtbaf in connecticutt killed himself the second a cop arrived. Maybe the tragedy wouldve been avoided from the get go if the coward knew a guy with a gun was already in the school somewhere.

Reminds me of the church shooting in Colo springs, the murderer wasnt very successful at mass killing once he found out the staff were armed and did in fact kill him. We need a culture of more guns, then these cowards will never show thier faces in public again.

Posted: 12/16/2012 12:50:36 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Biometric locks. No keys to steal. No combos to remember.

Cut off a finger. Pop out an eyeball.

Sorry, but no.

Posted: 12/16/2012 12:58:46 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mas - I know you're a member here. Excellent article and how sad it is that many in this country refuse to see the simplest solution.

Did not know that. Does he post often?

Almost never, and rarely if ever in GD.

Posted: 12/16/2012 4:45:13 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Biometric locks. No keys to steal. No combos to remember.

Cut off a finger. Pop out an eyeball.

Sorry, but no.

Seriously?

Has that ever happened? Would it even work?

Posted: 12/16/2012 4:56:11 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted: When unarmed people get murdered, we have to disarm more people, when we are broke we have to spend more money to get out of debt... If something doesnt work we have to do it again and again the exact same way until it works.

That's the 'gubment for ya!

Posted: 12/16/2012 5:49:03 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Mas - I know you're a member here. Excellent article and how sad it is that many in this country refuse to see the simplest solution.

Did not know that. Does he post often?

Almost never, and rarely if ever in GD.

For some reason this doesn't surprise me.

Posted: 12/31/2012 4:31:05 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
What I have been saying to people is: You keep trying to write laws and legislate against rain--and that doesn't work, clearly--why don't you maybe consider getting yourself an umbrella?

ETA: Also--there is a fundamental disconnect in the mindset of anti-gunners. If you were to ask the average liberal: "Do you wish that you were there? Do you wish that you were the first person the shooter came up against when he stepped through the door?" their answer would be "Of course not--because then I would be slaughtered like everybody else!"--whereas if you ask a gun owner that same question they would instinctively imagine themselves armed and say "Absolutely--and I would have turned his head into a canoe and prevented the whole thing".

Sounds a lot like Thomas Paine:

If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.

There are wolves, there are sheep, and there are sheepdogs, and no, you don't need a badge to be a sheepdog.

Posted: 12/31/2012 4:48:13 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
He gets a lot of grief here, but I find myself agreeing with him more than disagreeing.

He gets a lot of grief in a lot of places, much of it undeserved. People try to poopoo him for various reasons, none of which are particularly compelling. He wrote an article for the wrong magazine, 87th hand stories of him being drunk somewhere, he worked for a tiny PD so he must not know anything... etc.

I don't agree 100% with him, but I've been to several of his courses and his general approach, and most of the details, are spot on. And he's certainly right about this issue.

Normally the loudest protesters are the ones who have never taken a class from him.

Ironically that seems to be the norm around here...

Posted: 12/31/2012 4:50:28 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
What I have been saying to people is: You keep trying to write laws and legislate against rain--and that doesn't work, clearly--why don't you maybe consider getting yourself an umbrella?

ETA: Also--there is a fundamental disconnect in the mindset of anti-gunners. If you were to ask the average liberal: "Do you wish that you were there? Do you wish that you were the first person the shooter came up against when he stepped through the door?" their answer would be "Of course not--because then I would be slaughtered like everybody else!"--whereas if you ask a gun owner that same question they would instinctively imagine themselves armed and say "Absolutely--and I would have turned his head into a canoe and prevented the whole thing".

I like that analogy.

Posted: 12/31/2012 4:55:56 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to
draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:00:11 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to
draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

With proper training, all the above is easier than dialing 911 on a cell phone...

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:01:03 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to
draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

Long gun or handgun?

If handgun, that's totally retarded- or at least extremely unreasonable.

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:03:36 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
He gets a lot of grief here, but I find myself agreeing with him more than disagreeing.

What does he get grief about here?

From the typical Internet tuff guy/troll types that "know everything." It gets old and if I had my druthers, I'd silence the posting ability of anyone feeling the need to insult others here to make themselves feel better.

Indeed.

Mas looks at shooting incidents and things in the news and and offers fresh analysis and opinion that is not just repeating an existing cliche. There is nothing that offends some people more than to suggest they don't already know everything. To even suggest that to them, as akin to claiming you yourself already know everything. Yet, it's obvious Mas doesn't claim that, or he wouldn't keep looking at new incidents and measuring them against his already existing views... even *gasp* adjusting his teaching when new evidence points to the need.

If I'm not mistaken he at one point recommended bird shot as a home defense round.

Not kidding.

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:04:48 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to
draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

With proper training, all the above is easier than dialing 911 on a cell phone...

Good luck with that.

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:08:38 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to
draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

Long gun or handgun?

If handgun, that's totally retarded- or at least extremely unreasonable.

Handguns. POS 9MMs.

I gave up pushing for training for the guys, and, advocated the company
permitting revolvers. I'd rather have an untrained person using a revolver with
a hammer on an empty cylander than an auto when they'd have to charge it.

It was totally retarded and unreasonable. But, that was the policy.

As a supervisor, I told my people. "I will now inspect your weapons to ensure
policy is being followed." I'd do that, then, tell them. "That is the last time I will be
inspecting your weapons tonight."

The point I'm trying to make is that just putting weapons into people's hands isn't
going to solve anything. It takes mindset, and training. Most of these school-types
are going to hear that.

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:09:21 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to

draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

We're just not profeshunuh enough.

Like I've said in other threads: you don't need to arm everyone, or even require everyone to take training. Let the ones who want the responsibility come forwards and accept it. Let the individual schools decide if they're okay with CHL holders carrying, or if they want to require specific training and qualification. Do ANYTHING besides perpetuate the delusion that nothing can be done and so it's better to let someone murder children without opposition.

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:12:52 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to
draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

We're just not profeshunuh enough.

Like I've said in other threads: you don't need to arm everyone, or even require everyone to take training. Let the ones who want the responsibility come forwards and accept it. Let the individual schools decide if they're okay with CHL holders carrying, or if they want to require specific training and qualification. Do ANYTHING besides perpetuate the delusion that nothing can be done and so it's better to let someone murder children without opposition.

I'm all for CHL in schools for those willing to accept the responsibility. Dispersing rifles
in biometric safes or key lock boxes seems outlandish to me. A snub .38 in the hands of
a willing teacher seems a great much better than a key in the hands of a willing teacher, and
a rifle in a safe down the hall.

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:16:32 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to
draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

With proper training, all the above is easier than dialing 911 on a cell phone...

Good luck with that.

Well...with a defeatist attitude like that it will be damn near impossible, that's for certain.

Posted: 12/31/2012 5:20:18 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Felt compelled to copy/paste this:

Excellent points, Mas. To elaborate, we have fire extinguishers at strategic locations in all schools. Why can’t we place "monster extinguishers” similarly. An easy-to-use rifle such as an M-1 Carbine or AR-15 in a secure locker at several strategic locations on the campus. Specially trained staff would have keys to unlock the lockers in case of an emergency. The rifles would be much easier to use than a handgun, and there would be no danger of unauthorized access which might occur if a staff member were to leave a handgun in a purse or desk drawer.

Teachers have proven that they are willing to die for their students. I’m betting some of them would be willing to kill for their students, as well.

AB

Always put yourself in the mind of the enemy when planning a defense.

In this case, you have effectively armed that enemy. Any weapon accessible enough to be used in an emergency is far too easy to steal - the only exception is those concealed on people. If I overpower and steal a pistol from a CCW holder, I have a small pistol. If I steal a key from a "Specially trained staff" member (and keys are easier not to notice missing than a gun), I have a rifle - or several rifles.

Whn I worked security in NOLA, lots of our people were armed with autos.

We were not allowed to carry hot. So, what you are asking them to do, is; In a crisis, be able to
draw, charge, aim and, engage accurately. It's not happening.

I think the idea of dispersing weapons is a really bad idea.

With proper training, all the above is easier than dialing 911 on a cell phone...

Good luck with that.

Well...with a defeatist attitude like that it will be damn near impossible, that's for certain.

You can't just wave a magic wand. Wishing on a star isn't going to work either.

Personally, I think it's much more doable to work on a grass roots level to give
willing school staff the ability to carry concealed. Maybe even give state/federal
grants to pay for CHL training and licensing.

Fucking rifles in lockboxes and keys? Come the fuck on. That's just silly, IMO.
And it's certainly not going to be any more accepted than simply giving those
motivated to make a difference the opportunity TO make a difference.